ORAS - post-Greninja - Metagame Discussion

[Redolent]

Magic Bouncers help, but where the good Magic Bouncers are Megas, that causes significant centralization. As far as OHKOing it, Mega Houndoom and Mega Absol are as niche as Sharpedo and Beedrill and they existed in XY. That's not even mentioning that Beedrill is outsped on turn 1, and Sharpedo prefers to stay in it's regular form as long as possible to abuse Speed Boost. With regard to Thunder Wave crippling set-up sweepers, set-up sweepers existed in XY as well. Char-X, Mega Tyranitar and others could set-up in XY in Deo-D's face if it didn't have Thunder Wave. Outside of the Mega Magic Bouncers (who you shouldn't be forced to use to counteract Deo-D), there weren't really any elements that were introduced in ORAS that didn't exist in similar forms in XY. The rest of the argument you presented about dropping supporting moves? Outside of Skill Swap, that existed in the suspect thread. Still enough to ban it. The problem is that if you guess wrong, you are looking at 2+ layers of hazards. The other thing you seem to be ignoring is that Deo-D has powerful, hard-hitting teammates. It doesn't have to carry Superpower if you are packing a Genie. You don't have to worry about SubCM Keldeo if you have Latios. If it looks like they have a set-up sweeper that they are eager to send out, send out your usual answer to that sweeper. The idealism that you have to lead with Deo-D is inherently flawed in that any well built Deo-D hyper offense has a solution if the typical deterrents present themselves. Deo-D also has the bulk to set-up hazards mid-game if it doesn't lead, making things that can't break it liabilities. Deo-D itself is eminently beatable. The problem is Deo-D combined with the typical gang of HO mons (Bisharp, Thundy-I, Landorus-I, Latios, Keldeo) is very difficult to stop.

I appreciate your arguments but I'm not convinced Deo-D offers something exceptionally broken in that scenario compared to the other suicide leads we happily accept (Azelf, Terrakion). The example team you mention is still quite terrifying when you swap Deo-D for a replacement like that. While I accept that it could potentially still be broken, it's not necessarily the case. Mega Lopunny, Starmie, Mega Gallade, Latios (Eq or HP variants) and Talonflame for example are individual Pokemon that could do a number on that team (and if you told me to think of a better Deo-D HO team, I'm not sure I could), as could many Scarfers. Mega Swampert can deal with many on its own and probably all if backed by a well made rain team. SubCM Raikou (checked only by Lati), Mega Houndoom (checked only by Keldeo [edit: and t-wave]) are two more. Stall teams would do less well against it but Latias, specially defensive Mega Sableye, Mew and Cresselia could all cause problems, especially if Bisharp goes down.

It's still a good team archetype, maybe even one of the best, but it doesn't seem obviously broken to me in a way that it might have in XY. I would rather see that team with Deoxys-D as its sixth member than one with Aegislash.

 

[Miridy]

The reason Deoxys-D gets banned while Mew sticks around: Deoxys-D doesn't have to stop at rocks. Mew can Taunt, lay hazards, it's faster, it's about as bulky, its typing is the same, but because it cannot lay down up to 4 hazard layers nobody has ever claimed it is broken as a lead.

Deoxys-D therefore needs to run both Spikes and Stealth Rock in order to be worth using at all, so you are down two moves immediately. If Skill Swap were to become standard, that means Deoxys has just one move left - and it has to choose between Superpower, Taunt, Magic Coat, Thunder Wave, Night Shade, Psycho Boost, Mirror Coat, Recover. Of these, many would argue Taunt is essential to prevent your opponent steamrolling you with a boosting/sub lead or setting their own hazards, so that's your whole non-attacking set. Skill Swap doesn't even always work because the Sableye/Diancie player can choose not to Mega on the first turn and get off a free hit, prediction becomes important. The player can switch out their Magic Bouncer and threaten to bring it back in at any time, again requiring the Deoxys player to have good prediction in order to prevent wasted turns (or worse, reflected hazards that Deo cannot remove).

Overall Deoxys-D is significantly less reliable in ORAS OU. It was banned for being the perfect suicide lead, almost impossible in KO on turn 1 and carrying one or two moves designed to cripple its counters - it is less capable of capitalising on both of those traits now as it fares poorly against several new threats (not just the bouncers. Sharpedo, Beedrill too and it needs Thunder Wave for the likes of Metagross, Altaria, Gyarados, Gallade, Serperior).

Basically, it's still good, but it would be stretched thinner in the current meta than it ever was in XY.
No Skill Swap: Bouncers 100% counter
No Thunder Wave: Dragon Dancers can set up for free, as can naturally fast sweepers and Speed boosters (Rock Polish Landorus-T, Agility Metagross). These are Pokemon that specifically perform well against HO
No Superpower: struggles with Bisharp and Tyranitar
No Taunt: struggles with Calm Mind Pokemon (Keldeo sets up easily, even Mega Bro can), rival hazard leads, Defoggers like Mandibuzz, probably more

Then there are Pokemon that could naturally beat it even before it was banned, with the exception of Aegislash they are mostly still around (Crawdaunt, NP Thundurus, Adamant Scolipede, Gengar).


It might still be broken but on paper it is weakened enough to warrant testing, in my opinion.

There is a big difference between Deo-d and Mew, Deo knows Spikes, while it might be minor, believe me, a layer of spikes is very important for Heavy Offense teams, able to change 2hkos into ohkos and 3hkos to 2hkos and also pressuring the opponents more easily.
A set of Taunt/ Thunder Wave Stealth Rocks, Spikes Skill Swap holding Mental Herb do majority of things you mentioned.
Sharpedo and Beedrill are slower than deo-d meaning that no, they don't stop deo from doing its work, they are also mega evolution as Celticpride stated, you are bounded to run one mega per team, and while I adore Mega Beedrill I know he's not on par with other powerful megas atm.
By the way, only Sharpedo ohkos, Beedrill fails to do so (even with an adamant nature, yes he's a bit more bulky than Mew).
Adamant Scolipede do ohkos Deoxys-d but there is a reason he wasn't that much used as a life orb attacker back in the days, and still wouldn't be if deo returns.
Crawdaunt, yes like Sharpedo it ohkoes him, but it's uncommon and still slower than him, same deal with Tyranitar and Bisharp (minus the uncommon part).
life orb Gengar fails to ohko, and taunt is a coinflip, since Mental Herb is a common item.
Mandibuzz does indeed stop deo-d not knowing taunt... the question is, are you sure that deo does not have taunt? By the time you scout the moveset you may have already the field full of hazards and Deo-d job is complete.

 

[Celticpride]

I appreciate your arguments but I'm not convinced Deo-D offers something exceptionally broken in that scenario compared to the other suicide leads we happily accept (Azelf, Terrakion). The example team you mention is still quite terrifying when you swap Deo-D for a replacement like that. While I accept that it could potentially still be broken, it's not necessarily the case. Mega Lopunny, Starmie, Mega Gallade, Latios (Eq or HP variants) and Talonflame for example are individual Pokemon that could do a number on that team (and if you told me to think of a better Deo-D HO team, I'm not sure I could), as could many Scarfers. Mega Swampert can deal with many on its own and probably all if backed by a well made rain team. SubCM Raikou (checked only by Lati), Mega Houndoom (checked only by Keldeo [edit: and t-wave]) are two more. Stall teams would do less well against it but Latias, specially defensive Mega Sableye, Mew and Cresselia could all cause problems, especially if Bisharp goes down.

It's still a good team archetype, maybe even one of the best, but it doesn't seem obviously broken to me in a way that it might have in XY. I would rather see that team with Deoxys-D as its sixth member than one with Aegislash.

Just to be clear, I mentioned mons that Deo-D is typically paired with, that was by no means a sample team (hence the lack of a Mega). Also, there's a reason Deo-D is a step above Azelf and Terrakion. It has the bulk to reliably set at least one hazard, the ability set more than one hazard, and the bulk to set hazards up relatively easily. Plugging in Azelf or Terrakion achieves a similar hazard setting effect, but to a much lesser degree of effectiveness and reliability. Even implying that those two can be plugged into Deo-D's hazard setting role is a disservice to how perfect a hazard setter Deo-D is.

 

[jpw234]

Shadow Tag suspect shouldn't take priority. There's clearly more pressing concerns in regards to actual threats themselves that should be looked at first. This isn't an argument establishing that Shadow Tag shouldn't be looked at though, this is more about the order of what I feel should be reviewed.

...

M-Sableye is the "savior of stall" but it's in a way that skews it in the completely wrong direction. What we've seen is the liability of defensive builds that are completely shunned to the side or become obsolete solely due to M-Sableye's presence. One could argue that it can get worn down by heavy hitters and the increase of Fairy Types however this isn't exactly the case. On top of both the support it provides with its CM set and along with the support it provides with its utility set it gives the M-Sableye user an edge against so many builds of all arch-types. These so called checks and counters are only based on trivial circumstances at times and it's not exactly unheard of to see games where you'll just watch these checks and counters get worn down or defeated in the long run due to the way M-Sableye teams are built. M-Sableye is the epitome of anti-hazard and anti-utility, traits that are a necessity in the game to almost all play-styles out side of certain forms of offense. We see this with the rising usage of SD Gliscor, the increased usage of Manaphy, with the second example increasing the usage of Gothitelle and trappers that brings us back and makes us realize why Shadow Tag should be looked at as well. M-Sableye is to put it bluntly, one of the easy buttons of our tier at this moment. Massive utility in its move pool, fantastic typing coupled with its bulk, Magic Bounce to deter Stealth Rock and hazards which many teams rely on to function properly, and overall is what I feel is unhealthy in giving a clear advantage coupled in with all of its positives with its negatives easily accommodated for that outweighs whatever opportunity cost people will believe that it somehow establishes.

Not much to say about Shadow Tag to be honest that hasn't been said in the past. It comes back to people's perspectives in that Stall is extremely hard to build for because the trait of Shadow Tag primarily used with Gothitelle and Wobbuffet has the ability to dismantle defensive cores with ease, and in the case of Gothitelle can simply do this by itself. Stall's emphasis in forcing to adapt I believe is where Shadow Tag finds itself as the big culprit towards this trend, a big factor because defensive cores are reliant in maintaining switch control which is removed out of the big picture by these very influential trappers of Gothitelle and Wobbuffet.

...

1. M-Metagross 2. M-Sableye 3. Shadow Tag 4. GeoPass

Thanks for reading.

Suspecting Shadow Tag after Sableye is a really bad idea. Several people in this thread have already noted how Gothitelle makes Sableye way more effective by eliminating certain Fairy types that are difficult to deal with. A ban of Shadow Tag could significantly change how people evaluate Sableye as a suspect.

In general, things that are being looked at for uncompetitiveness should be banned (Edit: rather, should be suspected) before things that are being looked at for brokenness, for reasons which are probably self-evident.

Also, if there was ever a time to suspect Stealth Rock, it would be now. The metagame has settled down and there would not be a large opportunity-cost in terms of time since we don't have other ridiculously broken stuff to look at. In addition, talking about Mega-Sableye brings a discussion about the centrality of hazards in the metagame to the forefront of our policy talks whether we like it or not. Half the reason that Mega-Sableye is so good is because Stealth Rock dominates the metagame.

 

[AM]

My issue with any sort of re-test is on this preconceived notion that any of these are actually remotely healthy for the meta-game. The logic being used behind some of these are really underestimating what these are actually capable of.

Let's start off with Aegislash. I've been reading some of these comments that there are new checks and counters that keep it in line......which ones exactly? You mean the absurdly powerful Charizard-X that still has the potential to lose based on King Shield games? Landorus who is one of the strongest wall-breakers in the tier yet will never want to be switching into Shadow Balls? M-Lopunny who's even worse off than Charizard-X because all of its moves against Aegislash are contact moves susceptible to King's Shield? Landorus-T usage may be high but this isn't an excuse to bring something back down that created an entirely different meta-game one that created arch-types that were so mechanical in the first place. We're talking about something that isn't even a mega and has more versatility and effectiveness than some of the better megas in our tier right now. The last thing we need is more power creep in these teams with something that provides both a crazy amount of offensive and defensive traits all in one package.

Then you have the Deos which turned the game into a Hyper Offensive centralization that quite frankly is the most mindless concept that graced the XY meta-game to myself at least. Having M-Sableye in the tier is not going to nurture the Deos in regards to hazard stacking. All it'll do is change the general foundation of how these Hyper Offensive teams function and as such it will still have a strong emphasis on offensive hazard stacking. Do you really want to make some of our best offensive megas in the tier seem even more powerful than they already are?

If you're gonna re-test by all means do it for the reasons of it being a very close vote, but don't downplay the effectiveness of something simply cause you have 1 or 2 megas being able to check it, which sort of don't to begin with anyways. That's just using more powerful threats to combat other powerful threats, a power creep that shouldn't be endorsed.

Suspecting Shadow Tag after Sableye is a really bad idea. Several people in this thread have already noted how Gothitelle makes Sableye way more effective by eliminating certain Fairy types that are difficult to deal with. A ban of Shadow Tag could significantly change how people evaluate Sableye as a suspect.

In general, things that are being looked at for uncompetitiveness should be banned (Edit: rather, should be suspected) before things that are being looked at for brokenness, for reasons which are probably self-evident.

Also, if there was ever a time to suspect Stealth Rock, it would be now. The metagame has settled down and there would not be a large opportunity-cost in terms of time since we don't have other ridiculously broken stuff to look at. In addition, talking about Mega-Sableye brings a discussion about the centrality of hazards in the metagame to the forefront of our policy talks whether we like it or not. Half the reason that Mega-Sableye is so good is because Stealth Rock dominates the metagame.

We'll have to agree to disagree then because I'm one to believe that M-Sableye was a catalyst in creating the notion that Shadow Tag is still out there. People evaluate M-Sableye based on its role as a stand alone mon with amassed utility. Gothitelle and Shadow Tag itself doesn't change the fact M-Sableye is very dominant and ST isn't a factor in its capabilities more so that it has resorted Gothitelle to become even more prevalent in order to eliminate would be checks and counters. ST is self evident but not to the point where it should hold priority when you obviously have dangerous threats right in front of your face that need to be looked at and clearly more prevalent.

I have no comment on Stealth Rock I know you're the strongest advocator of it wanting it to be removed from the meta-game as shown in your SR discussion in Victory Road and frankly I think the whole notion of removing it simply a bad idea to begin with. Your SR debate expands out of OU to a multitude of tiers and tbh that's not something I believe is that great in theory and not looking forward to that at all.

 

[Redolent]

Just to be clear, I mentioned mons that Deo-D is typically paired with, that was by no means a sample team (hence the lack of a Mega). Also, there's a reason Deo-D is a step above Azelf and Terrakion. It has the bulk to reliably set at least one hazard, the ability set more than one hazard, and the bulk to set hazards up relatively easily. Plugging in Azelf or Terrakion achieves a similar hazard setting effect, but to a much lesser degree of effectiveness and reliability. Even implying that those two can be plugged into Deo-D's hazard setting role is a disservice to how perfect a hazard setter Deo-D is.

Fair point, it looked like a solid enough group of Pokemon to be used as a team lol.

I think we've discussed this about as far as we can. We're agreed that Deo-D is a great hazard setter, but I think the meta has moved far enough away from the XY DeoSharp HO days for Deo HO to not obviously be the best playstyle/lead any more, while to some not much has changed. I definitely think Deo is at least a little bit worse in ORAS, while Aegislash is if anything even better, so I'd be disappointed if Aegis got retested before Deo. But I don't think it's strictly necessary for either to be tested - I really brought up DeoD as my example of something that would deserve to be retested over (the in my opinion even more broken) Aegislash.

The current meta is actually quite well balanced, similar to late XY. Greninja was the last clearly broken thing in my opinion, so all that's left to do is refine what we already have and that may mean some riskier / less obviously justifiable test subjects.

 

[Kurona]

Something I've been extremely confused about in this thread are these words -- "If there's any time to retest it, it's now". I completely fail to see the logic in this. Why is this the best time to retest Aegislash, or Genesect? Or Deoxys-D, or anything? Why is the current metagame we're sitting at now such a pivotal, important turning point that numerous retests fit the environment? I wouldn't mind so much if some explanations were given beyond just vaguely saying "new checks and counters". The best argument for a retest I've seen so far in this thread is for Deoxys due to the metagame-defining threat of Mega Sableye and to a smaller extent Mega Diancie, but even then I'd have to refute that and say that that's just one playstyle that doesn't mind Deoxys anymore. Keep in mind that when we're talking about the new meta, all we essentially have that are new and viable in OU are:-

Hide

Mega Metagross
Mega Sableye
Mega Lopunny
Mega Gallade
Mega Diancie
Mega Altaria
Mega Slowbro
Mega Beedrill
Mega Latias
Mega Sceptile
Mega Swampert
Mega Sharpedo
Serperior
Mega Latios
Mega Camerupt
Mega Pidgeot
Mega Glalie

There's also the possibility of Reckless Emboar and Rock Head Tyrantrum in the near future but that's really trying hard. Aside from those, this is just 17 new threats. 17. Now keep in mind that some of the last few aren't that relevant, Latios doesn't really do anything different from it's base from - arguably extends to Slowbro too - and then put in the fact that 16 of these use up your Mega Slot. You also have some improvements such as Mega Gyarados getting Crunch and other 'mon getting movepool buffs like Pangoro, but let's be honest here -- out of this lot, what's really stopping Aegislash and Genesect? Out of this entire list, the two Pokémon I see causing them any trouble are Swampert and Camerupt, who both only work on specific playstyles - rain and trick room, respectively - and are not good choices outside of those playstyles. And for that matter Aegislash wouldn't care about Emboar or Tyrantrum either. Hell, in all honesty, the commonness of some of these 'mon - such as Metagross and Lopunny - arguably make things easier for Aegislash as it just has more Megas to target, wall and/or knock out.

I appreciate wanting to retest something but can some actual, coherent reasoning be given as to why Aegislash and Genesect would actually be healthy for ORAS when they weren't in XY?

edit: forgot to mention dragalge in the new threats section but it could not deal with aegislash either and it wouldn't be viable anymore and that would make me very very sad :((((

 

[WebBowser]

Hello everyone, I just wanted to take some time to post about the current state of BP. As a lot of people have stated, BP is still an issue. In almost every BP matchup I've seen, matchups are almost always decided in the one or two turns that the BP team's booster of choice is out. If the opponent can stop the booster from passing, he pretty much wins, if not, he loses unless he's packing some niche counter to popular BP sweepers (or if the BP player horrendously misplays...). What current BP teams have demonstrated is that it doesn't matter how weak the booster is, if he can give himself OP stats in a single turn, then you can make a team to give him that free turn. If a mon can reliably give himself stat boosts so overpowered that it is almost impossible to revenge that mon, it's broken. This applies to any broken sweeper, whether it is megakanga, megamence, or a geopass recipient (because lets be real here, if you take any mon and double it's bulk, speed and power, it will be completely borked).

Using the above logic, I propose that Smeargle and Scolipede are broken under the Support Characteristic.

Support Characteristic

A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep.

On Smeargle: Smeargle has slowly but steadily been receiving buff after buff to his movepool thanks to his access to every move. As you know, this past generation Smeargle gained access to a patently ridiculous move called geomancy, which is essentially a 1 time double quiver dance that consumes your power herb. This alone would break any mon that had a shred of special sweeping potential. However, Smeargle also has access to cotton guard, which more then doubles his physical bulk. The combination of double speed, bulk, and special attack is enough to allow any decent special sweeper to outspeed and ohko the entire tier while being pretty much immune to priority, and Smeargle accomplishes this in 3 turns. Not only that, but he has spore/taunt to make it impossible to counter his boosting with your own booster. Smeargle is so efficient of a booster that one could literally sacrifice half of his team to ensure that Smeargle gets his free turn and Smeargle still manages to enable a sweep. Smeargle is broken largely because geomancy is broken, but given that Smeargle is banned from UU anyway, I see no reason to ban geomancy and not Smeargle.


On Scolipede: In the past I have spoken at great length about Scolipede's brokenness, and my opinions on the matter remain unchanged. Simply put, the combination of speed boost and iron defense allows Scolipede to outboost virtually physical setup sweeper without any real fear of retribution. Furthermore, after just a single iron defense and a protect, Scolipede is already at +2 speed and +2 defense, which is often times enough for a setup sweeper like SD megazard-x or CM espeon to steamroll the enemy team. Speed + Defense is a devastating and unique combination of stats. High speed means that you cannot be outsped, meaning that scarfers and special mons are unable to revenge kill you. Defense is important because at this time, the only way to outspeed ultrafast mons is priority, and all priority moves are physical. at +2 defense, only the most powerful super effective priority moves will even dent the sweeper. At +4 or +6 defense your opponent is just fishing for a crit. Not helping matters is that unlike Smeargle, Scolipede actually has pretty good bulk. For example, adamant Garchomp's stone edge will fail to OHKO scoli even prior to boosting. CB Talonflame will fail to OHKO at +2 defense, and belly jet Azumaril simply gets setup in front of.


I am against complex bans for the following reason: Every complex ban proposal to date, including BP clause MK I and MK II, has been aimed at nerfing a specific BP team built around these mons. These proposals were created under the assumption that there was only 1 viable BP team and that by removing that team from existence, no other overpowered BP teams will ever exist. This logic is horrendously flawed and has been proven wrong on multiple occasions during the past year. The fact is, Geopass was a legal combination beck during the heyday of 6 mon BP teams, and it was just as broken then as it is now. The only reason no one used it was that nobody had made it yet. And yes I'm still against BP clause MK II, for the reasons stated in my sig and above.


I am against an Espeon/magic bounce simply because virtually any mon would be broken if it received the boosts that Scolipede/Smeargle can provide, Espeon is just slightly more broken then most.


Lastly, I am against a full ban on Baton Pass because to me, the issue is not that boosts can be passed to other pokemon. The issue is that the two mons I claim to be broken are able to obtain boosts that no pokemon should be able to reliably get. It is fairly well known that boosting moves are key to determining a mon's viability. If a mon is too efficient at boosting their stats, it almost always becomes a broken sweeper. Yes, baton pass is part of the reason why Smeargle and Scolipede are broken, just like U-Turn is part of the reason why Genesect was broken and Speed Boost is part of the reason why Blazekin is broken. However, we have pretty much rejected calls to ban speed boost or u-turn, so I see zero reason why we should give Scolipede or Smeargle special treatment.


TL;DR Scolipede and Smeargle are broken baton passers. Broken BPers are functionally no different from any other broken sweeper, they take away counterplay simply by raw force of their boosted stats. Banning BP would be like banning boosting moves just because broken sweepers exist. Complex bans also suck and don't address the issue.


I will post later on Shadow Tag, but I would rather have that on a different post. This one is long enough as is.

 

[ab15]

http://www.smogon.com/smog/issue39/aegislash
Makes good points about Aegislash but mainly "it checks most of the new Mega Evolutions introduced, such as Mega Altaria, Mega Sceptile, Mega Diancie, Mega Gallade, Mega Latias, Mega Beedrill, and Mega Metagross. No new great checks or counters were introduced either ".

No one has mentioning a counter for Aegislash or stating why he would be different this time. He is still a pain to KO and has could hit with ridiculous power while not being a mega.

Genesect is a much much better (and scarier) version of Greninja; with stab U-Turn, pseudo stab on all attacks, a larger movepool, and also the ability to setup and sweep. Almost any team that had greninja could be replaced with Genesect and be just as effective.

Both Aegislash and Genesect should stay where they are.

 

[bludz]

I'm against the retest suggestions. I haven't seen any arguments that make me think the things that were banned are going to be any less OP in the current metagame. Aegislash is a cool pokemon and I'd enjoy the opportunity of getting to use it (yep I'm late to the party) but its typing/ability/stats + King's Shield are simply ridiculous. Genesect is clearly too good and bringing back the hazard king Deo-D is just... why?

If people actually think the metagame is doing pretty well right now, where's the logic in shaking things up? "Because it can handle it better" is a silly argument, there's no reason to fix what isn't broken.

Any shakeup that occurs should be a suspect test of Sableye or Metagross IMO.

Also regarding Baton Pass: it's annoying as hell. We all know. But Scolipede and Smeargle have some hard counters. Smeargle has to run White Herb for Geomancy so anything that can outspeed and OHKO prevents it from setting up. Scolipede is more of a problem admittedly since it's fast but there is a very simple counter to Baton Pass that always works - phazing. Roar and Whirlwind are moves not commonly seen on offensive teams but are honestly pretty helpful in preventing sweeps and it's not like SpDef Heatran is killing your offensive momentum completely. There are other ways to play around it too, but I don't feel the need to make a giant post explaining that Baton Pass (with only 1 passer per team now) is not too OP disregard this part of the post, I was definitely wrong

 

[WebBowser]

http://www.smogon.com/smog/issue39/aegislash
Makes good points about Aegislash but mainly "it checks most of the new Mega Evolutions introduced, such as Mega Altaria, Mega Sceptile, Mega Diancie, Mega Gallade, Mega Latias, Mega Beedrill, and Mega Metagross. No new great checks or counters were introduced either ".

No one has mentioning a counter for Aegislash or stating why he would be different this time. He is still a pain to KO and has could hit with ridicules power while not being a mega.

Genesect is a much much better (and scarier) version of Grenninja; with stab U-Turn, pseudo stab on all attacks, a larger movepool, and also the ability to setup and sweep. Almost any team that had grenninja could be replaced with Genesect and be just as effective.

Both Aegislash and Genesect should stay where they are.

On Greninja vs. Genesect, I honestly consider them one and the same, or at least similar enough in power level to not matter. Genesect had the stronger u-turns, to be sure. However, Greninja was far more versatile then Gene ever was (which is an incredible accomplishment). Greninja had a much better physical movepool, roughly equivalent special movepool (he lacked flamethrower and thunderbolt, but he had everything else), and unlike Genesect, he was fast enough to not really need a scarf to do stuff. Gene had more power, especially on his u-turn, and much better bulk/typing.

Outside of these differences, they are almost identical, to the point where I would even say that if one is broken, the other probably is too. Inversely, if one isn't broken, the other probably isn't either.

*edit*

bludz

Please see the following replay: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-168915696

Simply put, phasing does not always work.

 

[Kurona]

Something I forgot to put in my last post and hence I'm forced to wait for someone else to post (thank you based WebBowser ) is that we have to consider the significant Metagame changes from XY to ORAS.
Now that Mence and Gren are banned and I believe the new toy syndrome has calmed down considerably - marked by the return of Charizard, Gardevoir, Scizor etc. - I think we are at the very least extremely close to seeing the realistic shape of the current metagame. Hence, while it might be nice to think the new meta is defined by all the new Megas, I think realistically these are the three big differences from late XY:-

-Greninja is gone
-Stall has received a massive buff in Sableye who partly defines the metagame
-Metagross arguably defines Offence, Hyper Offence and Bulky Offence and hence partly defines the metagame

None of these changes, to me, greatly change Aegislash's impact upon the meta. If anything, it could be seen as a benefit to Aegislash because Greninja was arguably a great check with Dark Pulse. Metagross despises going up against Aegislash's godly defences, and while Sableye arguably shits all over physically inclined sets, it can't touch Aegis' special sets. And while new threats such as Camerupt exist and Mega Swampert arguably defines and gives rain a massive buff, they are nowhere near metagame-defining enough to warrant Aegislash coming back.
I also question a lot of the statements made towards Aegislash' retesting. It seems to me that most of the arguments made for it - and my sincere apologies if I've got you wrong here - are biased towards how it's okay for Aegislash to return and not focusing upon it's impact. To be clear, it seems very much that the individual Pokémon is being focused on rather than the greater Metagame. This is, in my opinion, a very toxic standpoint and a horrendous precedent to set. I could, for instance, say that Deoxys-N is fine to be retested because there are more Pokémon now that can check or counter it such as Sableye, Metagross, arguably Slowbro or Altaria etc. However, this ignored the incredible impact it would have upon the wider metagame, the viability of a large amount of Pokémon, and the massive centralization it would bring with it's stupidly good offensive stats. It's the same deal with Aegislash. You can use your Earthquake Pinsirs all you want to check it and say that's alright, but at the end of the day we'll be stuck in a stale, unchanging meta that fails to adapt to Aegislash at every step.

 

[Sun King]

None of these changes, to me, greatly change Aegislash's impact upon the meta. If anything, it could be seen as a benefit to Aegislash because Greninja was arguably a great check with Dark Pulse. Metagross despises going up against Aegislash's godly defences, and while Sableye arguably shits all over physically inclined sets, it can't touch Aegis' special sets. And while new threats such as Camerupt exist and Mega Swampert arguably defines and gives rain a massive buff, they are nowhere near metagame-defining enough to warrant Aegislash coming back.
I also question a lot of the statements made towards Aegislash' retesting. It seems to me that most of the arguments made for it - and my sincere apologies if I've got you wrong here - are biased towards how it's okay for Aegislash to return and not focusing upon it's impact. To be clear, it seems very much that the individual Pokémon is being focused on rather than the greater Metagame. This is, in my opinion, a very toxic standpoint and a horrendous precedent to set. I could, for instance, say that Deoxys-N is fine to be retested because there are more Pokémon now that can check or counter it such as Sableye, Metagross, arguably Slowbro or Altaria etc. However, this ignored the incredible impact it would have upon the wider metagame, the viability of a large amount of Pokémon, and the massive centralization it would bring with it's stupidly good offensive stats. It's the same deal with Aegislash. You can use your Earthquake Pinsirs all you want to check it and say that's alright, but at the end of the day we'll be stuck in a stale, unchanging meta that fails to adapt to Aegislash at every step.

I think that something you take for granted is that "everyone agrees that Aegislash was unhealthy for the metagame". Iirc, the Aegislash ban was decided by a single swing vote. There were, and still are, plenty of us that enjoyed the effect Aegislash had on the tier (or at the very least never had a problem with its effect).

The reason I am in favor of retesting anything--or the reason why I say it's the right time--is because the metagame is balanced at the moment. There will always be a threat--or group of threats--that you MUST prepare for. That is pretty much something we need to take for granted. Right now, those two major threats (Metagross and Sableye) are manageable to a point where they aren't broken even if they have centralizing effects. We can afford to shake the tier up right now because of a balanced metagame.

Something interesting stated above is that we could shake it up by suspecting something, but it could also be interesting to shake it up by reintroducing an old threat. It really boils down to your perspective on how you want the metagame to be. I don't see this as a "right or wrong; black or white" issue. It's really just two different opinions with a large enough following to start a big argument. At the end of the day, I would prefer to see us retest an old threat than suspect a current one that can be handled.

 

[Celticpride]

but at the end of the day we'll be stuck in a stale, unchanging meta that fails to adapt to Aegislash at every step.

This is the only real issue that I have with people that want to keep Aegislash banned. A big part of Aegislash's ban argument was that it hindered the meta development. Well, the meta certainly did develop after Aegi was banned. However... does reintroducing Aegi into the meta automatically mean huge regression back to early XY? There's nothing that says it does or doesn't. You can say this about every banned suspect to a point, but Aegislash had such a different impact and such a different set of characteristics than pretty much everything else. I guess if everyone goes into a theoretical Aegi retest with the mentality of "I didn't like the Aegi meta, I like the post-Aegi one better" then we get nowhere. Also, can we stop talking about Aegi like it was the most broken thing to grace OU? It was banned be like three votes, and a few of them were changed last minute. It was three votes from still being in OU. It just annoys me how some people talk about Aegislash and Mega Lucario the same way with regard to how unhealthy they were.

 

[Kurona]

I think that something you take for granted is that "everyone agrees that Aegislash was unhealthy for the metagame". Iirc, the Aegislash ban was decided by a single swing vote. There were, and still are, plenty of us that enjoyed the effect Aegislash had on the tier (or at the very least never had a problem with its effect).

Not going to respond to the rest of your post because I either agree with it or have no qualms with it; but this part in particular stuck out.
I should have made it clear, admittedly, but I do not assume everyone was okay with the Aegislash ban. I never even got to witness the discussion at the time; I only started frequenting the OU forums right after it was banned. Instead, what I would assume is that a large majority of people who play OU would say that the metagame has evolved and become better without Aegislash, including those who were against it's banning. A similar thing happened after the Greninja ban; many who were against it's ban slowly but surely came to the conclusion that it's ban had created a better meta.
While there are definitely those who think the meta should have kept Aegis and slightly less who think we should have kept Greninja, the general consensus I've found among the forum is that it's generally agreed that Aegislash being banned had a postitive impact upon the meta, and even those who thought it shouldn't have been banned have partly come to this conclusion. Many interviews and comments from higher-ranked players also stated that the XY Meta post-Mawilite was arguably one of if not the best Metagame OU has ever had.

 

[Sun King]

Not going to respond to the rest of your post because I either agree with it or have no qualms with it; but this part in particular stuck out.
I should have made it clear, admittedly, but I do not assume everyone was okay with the Aegislash ban. I never even got to witness the discussion at the time; I only started frequenting the OU forums right after it was banned. Instead, what I would assume is that a large majority of people who play OU would say that the metagame has evolved and become better without Aegislash, including those who were against it's banning. A similar thing happened after the Greninja ban; many who were against it's ban slowly but surely came to the conclusion that it's ban had created a better meta.
While there are definitely those who think the meta should have kept Aegis and slightly less who think we should have kept Greninja, the general consensus I've found among the forum is that it's generally agreed that Aegislash being banned had a postitive impact upon the meta, and even those who thought it shouldn't have been banned have partly come to this conclusion. Many interviews and comments from higher-ranked players also stated that the XY Meta post-Mawilite was arguably one of if not the best Metagame OU has ever had.

I think that you come from a very well informed position, just one opposite my own views. In my eyes, the Aegislash ban mostly just loosened up offensive teambuilding. You didn't have to run mandatory EQ coverage--you were free to spam STAB (or coverage) Close Combats or other highly powerful moves with much less impunity. Things like M-Pinsir, M-Hera, and M-Medi became much harder to handle. From an offensive standpoint--Excellent! Nothing stands in your way. From a defensive standpoint, it became a nightmare because your cores--balanced or stall--crumble. While many creative cores like Digg+Mag or even M-Pinsir+Mag flourished (Magnezone got really good), defensive cores became a lot less effective. Stall became increasingly hard to build and play, and balance was much more matchup reliant.

 

[DoomX]

I would love to see Aegislash come back, all these fairies and steels need to know their place. I don't think its a bad idea to bring him back to OU since I didn't really see a problem with him in the first place, only complaints with 50/50s? I wasn't for the ban of Aegislash. It was hardly a 50/50 either you attack it or not is your problem. Ground / Fire / Ghost / Dark aren't always physical contact moves and they hit Aegislash supereffectively. I never ever thought Aegislash was a game changing factor of the game. I mean if he was, than the Aegislash user would have to win the "50/50" too and thats always gonna be tough as it is a prediction you have to win aswell. There's always gonna be "mindgames" in almost every game you play. I don't get how Aegislash forces the deciding outcome of a match every time. Like no its not always gonna come down to Aegislash coming clutch, you just need to be well prepared for it.

Personally for me I think Mega-Altaria needs to go. It's literally a "mini mega mence." Obviously there are more viable counters for Mega Altaria than they were for Mega Salamence, such as Scizor or Ferrothorn (if Altaria doesn't pack fire and you can never actually be too sure of that). If we're talking about the DD set for Mega-Altaria then all you need is a bit of damage on everything and Altaria can just sweep through teams. But I dunno Altaria has just been a problem for me. It could be for you if you aren't prepared for it. If Aegislash came back I'm not sure if the usage of this mon actually will change or not. But I can definately see Altaria becoming a bigger threat if we ban Mega-Metagross and not bring Aegislash back. (As it seems people find this to be a threat).

 

[pretty little liAr]

In the Aegislash topic, it's suspect test was pretty much on the only suspect to date I did not agree with. However, ORAS really did nothing but give more kings Sheild mind games and favorable mathcup. I get why people want to let it back in, as it was the closesed suspect test we've ever had and it makes Mega Metagross worse. However, is it really worth making pretty much every psychic type unviable? Aegislash makes the meta game much more over centralizing, and while I really love Aegislash (it is to date still my Favorite pokemon To use) I have to disagree on its retest. I agree with suspecting thecombination of shadow tag and goth. Wobbufet can be played around, and it's unique niche makes it something I would actually like to keep around. But shadow tag goth is just uncompetitive. It's a brain dead strategy used by players who are to lazy to actually find a stall breaker that does not rely on tricking the target and and just setting up in their face. Its not healthy at all, and something that u competetive deserves a suspect.
I'm kind off tired right now but I still am in support of a geopass suspect and mega mrtagross suspect(though I disagree with banning mega Metagross). Sableye is checked to easily to have a suspect (I'll give you a list later...).

 

[RoyalDispenser]

I don't want to sound like the smogon noob just demanding my favorite and least favorite pokes to return/get removed.. so bare with me as I make this some what sloppy post.

I think that was should Suspect test King's Shield, and retest aegislash.

The biggest argument towards aegislash is the fact he will still be meta defining as much as he was pre-oras meta.. if not more defining checking a lot of pokemon introduced in oras such as dragalge (rare), serperior, beedrill, gallade, list goes on. Lopunny is kinda a gamble.. aegislash doesn't check it but plays mind games with it (keep in mind that because of scrappy king's shield protects aegislash 100%).

However, one of the biggest arguments during his suspect test was his overcentralization.. the fact that the viability of so many pokemon in the meta become unviable or subpar running sub optimal coverage to counter him.. which isn't necessarily false. Medicham got more viable, heracross got more viable, and gardevoir tbh is the same as before, if not worse without aegislash to pair it with hard countering scizor and shit. Another argument for him staying was that he checked a lot of pokemon that shredded play styles such as stall.. but they still found answers in the end anyway. Hell, nothing is more over centralizing than talonflame.. that thing murders twice as many pokemon as aegislash and they're all still in BL. My point is, he didn't stop pokemon from shredding stall as regardless of his presence.. their viability remained the same as stall still worked around them relatively easy, he didn't define a play style enough to justify over centralization.

Broken doesn't check broken, was something said in almost every proban post towards anti-ban arguments regarding the pokemon mentioned above ruining the meta ... was aegislash broken is the question? I don't think so. Aegislash was argued to be broken because he caused coin flips, 50/50s whether or not to attack him or setup as he KSes. Problem with this argument is the lack of understanding what 50/50 scenarios are, are they uncompetitive? No, otherwise we'd ban double switching, sucker punch, pursuit, and a ton of other shit. The problem with the 50/50 argument is that whatever happens is in the control of both players. Both of the players make their move, and the ending result isn't based on some cheap game mechanic, but a decision made by said players. The only time king's shield can ever be considered broken, is if it's abused and uncompetitive on a number of pokemon. Smeargle can be another candidate, smeargle can basically get a free memento on physical attackers out of no where while retaining sash, allowing for setup for other sweepers.. in this scenario king's shield can be unpredictable and broken on it's own, as aegislash isn't the only abuser of it.. and while yes you can say "smeargle gets everything, doesn't mean we ban every move in the game because smeargle has it" point is that other suspects were banned because they either had the stats, typing, or utility to completely define the metagame.. and so the pokemon was ban, and the moves they learned wasn't considered uncompetitive in the slightest. For example, xerneas was uber cause it's just overkill.. it has the ability to shred teams with or without geomancy. Smeargle can't abuse geomancy on it's own like xerneas could, it needed heavy team support and it could become dead weight relatively easy.. where as king's shield can be used at any moment and wincon the game for players. Aegislash defined the meta solely because of king's shield being such a recovery and wincon for teams. Other gimmicky sets like max speed head smash slash showed what he can do without king's shield.. and it's kinda... meh. Banning king's shield because that's the "potentially" broken quality of aegislash and can be considered broken on other pokemon seems like the best plan.

Aegislash's utility was as a pivot, but it was king's shield that put him a wee bit over the edge.. He is a fantastic glue to teams, ran on almost every one, over centralizing talonflame, but his viability mostly was due to king's shield.. and the argument was whether or not stance change was uncompetitive, not the pokemon itself.

Now regarding aegislash in this meta... How exactly would the metagame be any different now with or without aegislash?

Aegislash is a glue to teams, Lando-t is by far the most slapped on teams pokemon. Usage statics show it.. and utility shows it. Intimidate, hazard laying, revenge killing with scarf, rare sweeper sets with SD/rockpolish, lando can be just as if not more versatile and meta defining as aegislash... but he's not broken enough to warrant a ban. So it's not exactly true that we ban pokemon for overcentralization alone.. lando's checks and counters are very few depending on it's set, and we see a lot of pokemon's viability being crippled by him such as gliscor, garchomp, manectric, lopunny, beedrill, list can go on forever. My point is that Introducing aegislash wouldn't make an impact at all.. he'd check a lot of pokemon like slowbro, beedrill, and metagross, but those alongside many other pokemon are usually checked by something else that makes them unviable or sub par such as lando, talonflame, and other shit, slapping aegislash in the current meta would make as big of an impact as slapping doublade in it, it's just a niche pokemon.

Banning king's shield and returning aegislash would seem like the best option.. lopunny checks it, a ton of other pokemon check it, king's shield was uncompetitive on it's own and abused by other pokemon (smeargle can be a wincon with it!) so it's not exactly a complex ban for one pokemon.

All in all.. Ban king's shield, retest aegislash, AFTER SEEING THE METAGAME CHANGE AFTER METAGROSS AND SABLEYE'S REMOVAL. Adding aegislash will just make it harder for us to identify what is broken in the current meta so I'd like to see him get re-added after we discover those said potentially broken mons. For all we know after sableye and metagross get removed, we could see gallade shredding the metagame or something and aegislash will just make it more difficult to identify whether or not gallade is broken. (Not saying it is but just giving an example..)

Also can I just let this sit through your heads? Aegislash was banned with a 62% majority and half the people in the suspect test were just random first posters.. aegislash was banned by one vote. If it was around 70 or 80% I'd say ok, the verdict was decided by experienced players.. but by one vote in one of the most controversial suspect test seems pretty biased IMHO.

Sorry this post was ridiculously unprofessional and sloppy, but I just woke up like 10 minutes ago.

EDIT: Even the post above are only saying king's shield is still broken, not aegislash themselves.

 

[I AM THE JAMAICAN BOBSLED TEAM]

I don't want to sound like the smogon noob just demanding my favorite and least favorite pokes to return/get removed.. so bare with me as I make this some what sloppy post.

I think that was should Suspect test King's Shield, and retest aegislash.

The biggest argument towards aegislash is the fact he will still be meta defining as much as he was pre-oras meta.. if not more defining checking a lot of pokemon introduced in oras such as dragalge (rare), serperior, beedrill, gallade, list goes on. Lopunny is kinda a gamble.. aegislash doesn't check it but plays mind games with it (keep in mind that because of scrappy king's shield protects aegislash 100%).

However, one of the biggest arguments during his suspect test was his overcentralization.. the fact that the viability of so many pokemon in the meta become unviable or subpar running sub optimal coverage to counter him.. which isn't necessarily false. Medicham got more viable, heracross got more viable, and gardevoir tbh is the same as before, if not worse without aegislash to pair it with hard countering scizor and shit. Another argument for him staying was that he checked a lot of pokemon that shredded play styles such as stall.. but they still found answers in the end anyway. Hell, nothing is more over centralizing than talonflame.. that thing murders twice as many pokemon as aegislash and they're all still in BL. My point is, he didn't stop pokemon from shredding stall as regardless of his presence.. their viability remained the same as stall still worked around them relatively easy, he didn't define a play style enough to justify over centralization.

Broken doesn't check broken, was something said in almost every proban post towards anti-ban arguments regarding the pokemon mentioned above ruining the meta ... was aegislash broken is the question? I don't think so. Aegislash was argued to be broken because he caused coin flips, 50/50s whether or not to attack him or setup as he KSes. Problem with this argument is the lack of understanding what 50/50 scenarios are, are they uncompetitive? No, otherwise we'd ban double switching, sucker punch, pursuit, and a ton of other shit. The problem with the 50/50 argument is that whatever happens is in the control of both players. Both of the players make their move, and the ending result isn't based on some cheap game mechanic, but a decision made by said players. The only time king's shield can ever be considered broken, is if it's abused and uncompetitive on a number of pokemon. Smeargle can be another candidate, smeargle can basically get a free memento on physical attackers out of no where while retaining sash, allowing for setup for other sweepers.. in this scenario king's shield can be unpredictable and broken on it's own, as aegislash isn't the only abuser of it.. and while yes you can say "smeargle gets everything, doesn't mean we ban every move in the game because smeargle has it" point is that other suspects were banned because they either had the stats, typing, or utility to completely define the metagame.. and so the pokemon was ban, and the moves they learned wasn't considered uncompetitive in the slightest. For example, xerneas was uber cause it's just overkill.. it has the ability to shred teams with or without geomancy. Smeargle can't abuse geomancy on it's own like xerneas could, it needed heavy team support and it could become dead weight relatively easy.. where as king's shield can be used at any moment and wincon the game for players. Aegislash defined the meta solely because of king's shield being such a recovery and wincon for teams. Other gimmicky sets like max speed head smash slash showed what he can do without king's shield.. and it's kinda... meh. Banning king's shield because that's the "potentially" broken quality of aegislash and can be considered broken on other pokemon seems like the best plan.

Aegislash's utility was as a pivot, but it was king's shield that put him a wee bit over the edge.. He is a fantastic glue to teams, ran on almost every one, over centralizing talonflame, but his viability mostly was due to king's shield.. and the argument was whether or not stance change was uncompetitive, not the pokemon itself.

Now regarding aegislash in this meta... How exactly would the metagame be any different now with or without aegislash?

Aegislash is a glue to teams, Lando-t is by far the most slapped on teams pokemon. Usage statics show it.. and utility shows it. Intimidate, hazard laying, revenge killing with scarf, rare sweeper sets with SD/rockpolish, lando can be just as if not more versatile and meta defining as aegislash... but he's not broken enough to warrant a ban. So it's not exactly true that we ban pokemon for overcentralization alone.. lando's checks and counters are very few depending on it's set, and we see a lot of pokemon's viability being crippled by him such as gliscor, garchomp, manectric, lopunny, beedrill, list can go on forever. My point is that Introducing aegislash wouldn't make an impact at all.. he'd check a lot of pokemon like slowbro, beedrill, and metagross, but those alongside many other pokemon are usually checked by something else that makes them unviable or sub par such as lando, talonflame, and other shit, slapping aegislash in the current meta would make as big of an impact as slapping doublade in it, it's just a niche pokemon.

Banning king's shield and returning aegislash would seem like the best option.. lopunny checks it, a ton of other pokemon check it, king's shield was uncompetitive on it's own and abused by other pokemon (smeargle can be a wincon with it!) so it's not exactly a complex ban for one pokemon.

All in all.. Ban king's shield, retest aegislash, AFTER SEEING THE METAGAME CHANGE AFTER METAGROSS AND SABLEYE'S REMOVAL. Adding aegislash will just make it harder for us to identify what is broken in the current meta so I'd like to see him get re-added after we discover those said potentially broken mons. For all we know after sableye and metagross get removed, we could see gallade shredding the metagame or something and aegislash will just make it more difficult to identify whether or not gallade is broken. (Not saying it is but just giving an example..)

Also can I just let this sit through your heads? Aegislash was banned with a 62% majority and half the people in the suspect test were just random first posters.. aegislash was banned by one vote. If it was around 70 or 80% I'd say ok, the verdict was decided by experienced players.. but by one vote in one of the most controversial suspect test seems pretty biased IMHO.

Sorry this post was ridiculously unprofessional and sloppy, but I just woke up like 10 minutes ago.

EDIT: Even the post above are only saying king's shield is still broken, not aegislash themselves.

we only ban moves/abilities that are broken on all pokemon. now think, long and hard to yourself, is king shield smeargle broken?

 

[SketchUp]

Banning King's Shield on Aegislash instead of just banning Aegislash is a complex ban and smogon doesn't do these (just like they didn't ban Protean Greninja, but just Greninja)
In the Victory Road subforum there was a discussion about these complex bans that can be seen here: http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...-banning-protean-instead-of-greninja.3526563/

 

[RoyalDispenser]

It's not exactly a complex ban getting rid of King's Shield. A complex ban is removing one or two moves or sets on a single pokemon just to nerf it. (I.E. Blaze blaziken, removing scarf for genesect)

In aegislash's case, it's one move that many argue can be protentional broken. King's Shield smeargle isn't broken, I can ask myself if king's shield aegislash is broken.. and still say no, however the uncompetitive arguments clearly stated it was the 50/50 mindgames that deems aegislash as broken with one move that smeargle can equally abuse and force coinflips with as well. That's like saying banning swagger was a complex ban, it's not nerfing a random move on a random pokemon, it's removing a broken move on atleast two potential abusers.

 

[AM]

It's not exactly a complex ban getting rid of King's Shield. A complex ban is removing one or two moves or sets on a single pokemon just to nerf it. (I.E. Blaze blaziken, removing scarf for genesect)

In aegislash's case, it's one move that many argue can be protentional broken. King's Shield smeargle isn't broken, I can ask myself if king's shield aegislash is broken.. and still say no, however the uncompetitive arguments clearly stated it was the 50/50 mindgames that deems aegislash as broken with one move that smeargle can equally abuse and force coinflips with as well. That's like saying banning swagger was a complex ban, it's not nerfing a random move on a random pokemon, it's removing a broken move on atleast two potential abusers.

Swagger was uncompetitive amongst everything that got it so there's a very large difference in here. What you're asking for is exactly what the general community wouldn't want to have, complex bans. Smeargle can't abuse King's shield not close to the same manner as Aegislash. Aegislash had way more other traits coupled in with it that went along with just King Shield and as such its effectiveness was amplified due to these variables. Banning King's Shield by virtue of what it entails is a complex ban. We really don't need that.

 

[haunter]

We're not gonna test a complex ban of Aegislash+King's Shield, get over it.

 

[MrAldo]

Aegislash should never be allowed to return. Aegislash was simply the best pokemon OU ever had. It was that good. It could literally do everything all in one single teamspot. Of course it couldnt every single moveset it would like to, but that was up for the opponent to find out. You could lose up to 1 or 2 pokemon and it could dismantle each of its checks with one move or set.

The metagame revolved around it in more ways that it should be allowed to cause Aegislash presence made a lot of mons unviable and a handful of mons really good to beat certain sets, speaking about mandibuzz but he amount of mons Aegislash made borderline unviable was simply ridiculous. And of course it could wall the meta cause of how difficut this thing was to OHKO without some prior damage. Every player needed to find ways to deal or lure Aegislash out, a good couple of them otherwise Aegislash just sit there walling you all day. Many mons had to run a specific move to get past this thing. It shouldnt never return and I dont how an Aegislash retest should be considered when there is more mons this thing can wall and act like the best glue in the entire metagame.

Of course we are lacking diversity in glue mons like Aegislash, but if this is allowed to return it would be the same case seeing the glue Aegislash everywhere. Or even more cancerous Aegislash + Genies once more...

Of course Aegislash ban had its consequences, like the huge impact Mega Mawile had in the metagame in just a month but those were resolved later on most playstyles adapting to the metagame (though passive stall took the most damage but it wasnt unviable, just pretty difficult to build for)

Id rather take a matchup based metagame with plenty of diversity than a stale metagame with the same glue on every team and "Trying to break that glue, the metagame" every day of my existence.