Metagame NP: RU Stage 6: Heavy Metal and Reflective (ALL 3 SUSPECTS BANNED, DISCUSSING POST BANS META NOW)

[Empress]

Mega Pidgeot is probably the second best mega in RU to Mega Sceptile (which it ultimately counters), and with it's great speed and special attack, plus the No Guard ability, it's truly a force to be reckoned with. However, it can be easily countered by Jolteon and lacks Normal stab without Hyper Beam, which requires recharge turn. No Ban

Just a heads-up, this really isn't the best argument as to whether Mega Pidgeot should stay. It does not need a Normal-type STAB attack, as Hurricane already smashes most things hard enough in RU. Jolteon may be a full-on stop to Mega Pidgeot, but you'll need more checks and counters than just Jolteon to claim that we can handle it. Moreover, whether a Pokemon has checks and counters or not is never the sole reason to say ban/no ban on it.

I see you're fairly new here, so if you have any other questions, feel free to contact me.

 

[Mr.378]

After playing in the current RU metagame and obtaining my voting reqs I feel as If I know enough to have a decent stance on where they should be. I'll just break it down:

My Thoughts:

• Mega-Pidgeot is very similar to my initial expectations. It is a very fast, powerful special attacker that is very easy to build around and include on a team. While it doesn't have the best move pool in the meta, it still is underrated in this regard. Having U-Turn to pivot out of threats and predicted switch ins is very useful, while having a few decent utility moves. It also has the underrated Work Up Refresh set which can easily set up on and demolish unprepared teams. It does have a few checks that are annoying to play around, like bulky steels that can withstand Heat Wave, I feel as if that it is still too hard to play around and too overly beneficial to it's user. I feel as if the metagame would be overall better if Mega-Pidgeot was banned.

• Serperior is something I also had very strong expectations for. It has a very powerful ability and the move pool to use it with while having good speed. It seemed like a nigh unbeatable sweeper. Upon using it I've realized that while it isn't that good. It is fast and it is easy to set up because it deals damage with it's set up move, it isn't too hard to stop before it gets too many boosts. It can be revenge killed by many threats including the above Mega-Pidgeot, and Pokemon that resist grass can typically take the Leaf Storm and a +2 unstabbed coverage move to attempt a kill. Many Bulkier steels for example can do this. It is also limited in it's lifespan by the life orb which it needs ti deal damage due to it's lackluster offensive stats. In spite of all of these flaws I still find it to be ban worthy. It is still very easy to use. Both by ensuring set up opportunities and eliminating it's checks. In spite of what I said about it's offensive stats it still can hit reasonably hard with Leaf Storm because it is a 140 STAB base power move. It can hit many would be checks on the switch and eliminate them then. Because many of it's checks lack consistent recovery it is fairly easy to wear don it's answers and sweep from there. Because of this, I think that the tier is better off without it.

• Dragalge is another Pokemon I had high expectations for, but doesn't exactly live up to them. It's Draco Meteors are very powerful, stronger then Latios' all while having an alright poison typing. The Specs set seemed like a very powerful nuke, something that was too powerful for the tier. But after facing it, using it and thinking more about it I realize the flaws in my original assessment. The biggest problem is speed, and Dragalge just doesn't have much of it. It is slow to the point there revenge killing it is a simple task for most offensive Pokemon and while it does have okay defenses that allow it to take a hit it can't do it with consistency because it has no form of recovery. In addition, as good as it's typing is for offense it is rather average defensively. It has a good amount of resistances that are helpful to switch it in, it also has some crippling weaknesses to some of the most common types in the metagame. This makes it hard to switch in and stay at decent health while you attack. This wouldn't be such an issue alone, but it's slower speed makes it more of one because it forces it to take hits, which it really doesn't want to. Also, while it's typing may be great offensively it is quite flawed as well because both of it's stab attacks have immunities which allows for some pokemon to get free switch ins and punish Dragalge, especially the specs set because it is locked in to that move. Having both it's stabs be either resisted by or nulled by steal really hurts it offensively. t then has to rely on the inaccurate Focus Blast to break them, which it often can't to the bulkier steel types. The most potential I see in it comes from the Toxic Spikes set where you can bluff Specs and set up Toxic Spikes and punish switch ins. It has a lot of potential in that regard, but I feel as if Dragalge is balanced in the current metagame and should stay.

These are just my thoughts after playing the tier a good amount and thinking over the suspects. I feel as if this has been a very informative suspect test at least.

 

[iLordDeath]

Mega Pidgeot is certainly a huge threat in ru, considering most of the pokemon in RU are tanks confusion makes it so much harder to do literally anything at all. From reading the statistics concerning how commonly used certain pokemon in the RU tier are, the top 10 pokemon used in RU seem to be countered easily by pidgeot.

252+ SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Amoonguss: 486-572 (112.5 - 132.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Mega Pidgeot Heat Wave vs. 212 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Doublade: 274-324 (87.8 - 103.8%) -- 25% chance to OHKO, obviously not able to fully take it out, but pidgeot is still able to confuse the doublade if needed or even use the heat wave/hurricane and u-turn out causing the doublade to be severely crippled
252+ SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Gligar: 190-225 (57 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And looking even deeper into the top 20...

252+ SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hitmonlee: 374-444 (155.1 - 184.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Mega Sceptile: 356-422 (126.6 - 150.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 160 HP / 0 SpD Fletchinder: 342-403 (112.1 - 132.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 216+ SpD Drapion: 181-214 (52.7 - 62.3%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

Sure, there are a few certain counters to pidgeot, like rhyperior, but essentially its only job is to counter rhyperior. When you need to take up a space just in order to counter a single pokemon you can figure that pokemon is quite powerful. In my opinion, I believe pidgeot should be banned

 

[Scienceandreligion]

I agree that Mega-Pidgeot should be banned iLordDeath, but to say that the counters of mega-pidgeot only exist to perform one role would be doing them a disservice. For example, Rhyperior is very effective at tanking most non-super effective hits and can phase out threats with roar, set up stealth rock, or hit very hard with earthquake or stone edge(or break subs with rock blast). The same would go with something like eelektross, which can generally take a hit and either volt switch out for momentum or hit something hard. That to me is why u-turn is the enabling factor that makes Mega-Pidgeot a tad too much to handle. These pokemon switch in, take a small chunk from hurricane, then are u-turned out on without doing a thing to Mega-pidgeot. Meanwhile, a switch-in comes in to damage the counter in question. And most of the pokemon that can switch in to hurricane or the stray heat wave lack reliable recovery, which means over the course of the game they are whittled down to the extent that they can't stop mega-pidgeot. The confusion chance is the icing on the cake to such power, speed, and momentum capabilities. I actually think without a defog-centric metagame one could make an argument for Mega-Pidgeot being manageable due to the efficacy of stealth rock at whittling down it's health (as Roost for the Mega-Pidgeot player can be hard to prioritize), but it's just such an ordeal to keep hazards up in RU right now that enables Mega-Pidgeot to be over the top.

 

[Molk]

And with that, voting's over! Thanks for participating everyone!

As for the results, all 3 suspects were banned by a supermajority despite only needing a simple majority to leave, if you want more detailed results, you can check here for them: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/ru-stage-6-suspect-voting.3528570/#post-6018935

 

[atomicllamas]

Stats are up, and while the shifts aren't official looks like RU lost Mega Sceptile to UU (I'm p happy about this tbh), as well as Serperior and Mega Pidgeon (doesn't matter anyways). Gligar is on the edge and I'm too lazy to do math but its below 3.41% this month so its tiering depends on how much the previous two months move it.

We gave NU Virizion, Quagsire and Mawile while taking Accelgor. Hitmonchan, Abomasnow and Claydol were all at 3.8% usage so Aboma may go down if its usage the last two months was too low, I hope for NU's sake it stays RU. PSA: stop using Claydol and Hitmonchan, start using Mega Abomasnow :].

http://www.smogon.com/stats/2015-01/

edit: originally posted in wrong thread

better edit: We also gave banette to NU, WE ALSO MAY HAVE LOST COFAGRIGUS, HITMONCHAN AND CLAYDOL LOOK AT SUSPECT STATS

and like Shiftry and Skunk but who care :]

edit @ below: nah that had too much usage in suspect + regular to move down still

 

[Da Pizza Man]

(I'm going to get a lot of hate for this since the Pats just won the Superbowl)

Hey guys Claydol dropped! We did it! High Five!

 

[atomicllamas]

Pidgeot moved from RU to UU
Sceptile moved from RU to UU
Gligar moved from RU to UU
Heliolisk moved from RU to NU
Glalie moved from NU to RU
Quagsire moved from RU to NU
Virizion moved from RU to NU
Claydol moved from RU to NU
Mawile moved from RU to NU
Kabutops moved from NU to RU
Accelgor moved from NU to RU

All relevant shifts to and from RU. We lost Gligar and Mega Sceptile, no gligar = rip meta yn :x I'm sure Molk will post a new NP soon, but if you want to discuss the shifts this is the place to do so until then

 

[Don Honchkrorleone]

| 58 | Hitmonchan | 3.446% |

With Gligar gone though, I think Emboar and especially Panda might become a little more problematic. Only time will tell if I'm right or not.

 

[lighthouses]

I can't do this w/o gligar man :[

 

[Ramplestilskin]

Gligar is dead ):

 

[Mew2]

*cough* Suspect Panda *cough*

 

[trc]

LOL panda now a shit but even more :x

also damn nu gonna be sick

 

[aVocado]

FUCK YEAH gligar is gone!!!

no more un-OHKO-able defogger anymore n_n sticky webs shall rise (i know they won't though.)

 

[col49]

honestly, i'm really happy how this all panned out. i mean, obviously i felt all three suspects getting banned was the ideal scenario here, but losing gligar and sceptile might be of legitimate benefit to the tier. m-sceptile, particularly with the loss of the current suspects, i feel could have definitely proven itself a malignant and over-encumbering presence in the tier, notably bottlenecking offense a ton and kinda-sorta retaining as an unhealthily threatening breaker v.defensive teams, as it had a pretty solid amount of flexibility in its sets (sd and special attacker have pretty significantly different countering, sans mixed defenses poisons). gligar, while i'd never go as far as to say it left a wholly negative impact on the tier, i do however feel that it allowed for more 'lax teambuilding', presenting a very low-maintenance defensive pivot with a bunch of utility that could be played on almost any playstyle. this is, of course, the making of a good, yet by no means broken pokemon, which i'd really like to emphasize here, but i do however think that this might spark some more creativity in team-building, which is something i'm all for.

 

[DiscoDucky]

Nice suspect test.

 

[MrAldo]

rip gligar

Hide

HECK YEAH

Hey, we keep whimsicott so thats fine.

>Hitmonchan not dropping

sigh. But we are one step closer!

 

[Paleo]

So with the 3 suspects gone, plus Mega Sceptile, I feel RU can get the to ''real'' suspect tests, where it's actually a question whether or not the pokemon is staying. Pangoro/Cress/Moltres/Emboar are all pretty suspect test worthy in my eyes. I'll probably be spamming a lot of Pangoro because of the Gligar leave. Waiting for all the physical/fighting types to run rampant with it gone,and its effect on teambuilding with it being one of the staple pokemon of ru. Choice scarf Emboar is also something to take a look at, because it lost its #1 switchin, and most likely going to be on all my teams. Also maybe Ambipom can put in some work

 

[Psynergy]

Claydol actually dropped to NU? Goodbye RU, following Claydol to a tier where it won't suck. Gligar leaving is huge and something I was expecting but I don't know what to think about it. On one hand I liked Gligar but on the other hand I also hated it. I do like the fact that there's one less significant threat to Sticky Web, though. Of course Sticky Web setters still sucking is a thing but this lack of Gligar also benefits hazards in general which is kinda cool.

Meanwhile, Pangoro please get out.

 

[RufflesPro]

I'm actually really happy Gligar went - it was like on every single team, and it walled so many stuff.

All I can say is that now fighting spam is gonna be real without something as solid as Gligar. Pangoro mainly, and now Emboar can actually use Superpower. Cress and faires are gonna have a fun time. I can see HO rising nicely, and people will PROBABLY resort to hitmonlee again for hazard control.

But Golbat is the real thing - it checks most of the powerful stuff right now like Moltres and Cresselia, while it can do a LOT with BB to Pangoro and Emboar (It can take a hit too). Not only that but right now I think it's the most splash-able Defog user in the tier.

 

[The Lucky Absol]

Half my team moved to UU god dammit.

 

[Alfalfa]

I'm actually really happy Gligar went - it was like on every single team, and it walled so many stuff.

All I can say is that now fighting spam is gonna be real without something as solid as Gligar. Pangoro mainly, and now Emboar can actually use Superpower. Cress and faires are gonna have a fun time. I can see HO rising nicely, and people will PROBABLY resort to hitmonlee again for hazard control.

But Golbat is the real thing - it checks most of the powerful stuff right now like Moltres and Cresselia, while it can do a LOT with BB to Pangoro and Emboar (It can take a hit too). Not only that but right now I think it's the most splash-able Defog user in the tier.

How does Golbat check Moltres when it is obliterated by either of Moltres' Life Orb-boosted STABs?

 

[Expulso]

One thing I'm hyped to see get a lot of use now is Virizion. Despite ironically falling to NU this month, Virizion has only gotten better with the tier shifts. Here's the breakdown:

• Less competition from Mega Sceptile as a offensive physical Grass-type
• Loses an excellent check in Mega Pidgeot
• No longer semi-walled by Gligar (esp. Acrobatics variants), leaving it free to run LO which OHKOs Golbat at +2 and stuff
• Dragalge, an excellent check that basically forced it to run Zen Headbutt, is also gone :p

Some other things that benefitted from these changes:
- Skuntank isn't a free Gligar switch-in, and faces less competition as a defogger
- Drapion is not walled by Gligar, and faces little competition as a Toxic Spikes setter now that Dragalge is gone; also one less thing to absorb them.
- All fighting types got better without Dragalge, Gligar, and Mega Pidgeot; Emboar and Pangoro are really notable examples of this.
- Alomomola is no longer a free Dragalge switch-in, rip :'(
- Electric-types, like Jolteon and Eelektross, appreciate not having to run Ice coverage now that Gligar and Mega Sceptile are gone.

have fun with this awesome meta while it lasts, guys :]

 

[Cowtao]

"Claydol moved from RU to NU"

Given the changes, here's some things that I will predict to fall or rise.

Cresselia - Pre-Suspect, Cresselia was the bulkiest thing to handle Dragalge, M-Sceptile, and M-Pidgey. Unfortunately for her, all three of these suspects are gone. With Gligar gone, this also hurts Cress, as more people will shift towards Golbat which makes running SubCM, one of it's flagship sets, even more difficult to run. The new tier changes will shift the game style back to what it was during the "Blind Burd" era. (LO Moltres, Specs Loud, LO Hitmonlee, ect.) It could possibly be even worse thanks to new popularity in Pangoro and Houndoom. I expect it to drop down to B tbh. :T Bronzong is also on this same boat as well.

Golbat - Golbat got a MAJOR boon in the form of one departure. Despite losing some appeal of walling stuff like Dragalge and Mega-Sceptile, it has gained a huge amount of appeal with the loss of Gligar. Now he arguably stands unopposed as the best defogger in the tier. Skuntank or Swanna may try to catch on but, Golbat boasts an amazing defensive typing, along with some pretty hefty bulk w/ Eviolite. Walling nearly every popular steel-type (Minus Magneton) and goro is a pretty big thing. A-.

Moltres - Moltres will centralize the new RU tier. I'm calling it right now. Some of the enemies have changed but, this tier is almost identical to when he was stomping around as Blind Burd. His teammates will change but, his sheer power has stayed consistent throughout the changes. Very few checks or counters have been added to the tier to stop him from being a monster to both Offensive and Defensive teams. Simply put, this tier will fit like a glove to turkey nuke. S+ if possible.

Amoonguss - Thanks to the suspect tests, Amoonguss can rear it's shroom head in as a very annoying wall to face. The suspect tests alone give birth to the revival of more regen-cores. M-Glalie and M-Snow may prove to be a bit of a rough transition but, I think Amoonguss will be able to be in a respectable place in RU. Possibly moving up to B+ or A-.

I'm a bit excited to see how this tier is gonna turn out. With Gligar gone, it opens up some walls for us to look at for defoggers. Especially with some of the OP stuff leaving, I predict this will be a pretty fun tier. c:

 

[Afro Smash]

Heliolisk moved from RU to NU

Sigh.