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+1 252 SpA Life Orb Latios Psyshock vs. 92 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 308-363 (84.6 - 99.7%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Mega Latios Psyshock vs. 92 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 276-325 (75.8 - 89.2%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
I think you missed Albacore's original point. His point was that Mega Latios's better bulk helped with setting up, while it still has enough power over Mega Latias to justify using it instead. The thing is, in your case, you're comparing something that doesn't have to deal with Life Orb recoil to something that does, which was also part of his point - that Mega Latios still has decent power, for example you still 2HKO Chansey after SR, but it also has slightly better bulk and no Life Orb recoil. These are small reasons to use Mega Latios, but they're reasons nonetheless. No LO recoil is actually a pretty big deal, for example, as this means it's harder to wear down Mega Latios than it is to wear down LO Latios.
Mega Latias obviously has more of a niche, but not for any offensive Calm Mind set. It's because Mega Latias can pull off a good bulky CM set, which it does way better than regular Latias. Offensive CM Mega Latios's niches over CM Life Orb Latios are going to be much smaller, and Albacore's point was that Mega Latios's rank should be based on the merits of that set since it's the best thing you can salvage out of it. I only came here to point out the flaws in your calc logic.
I think you missed Albacore's original point. His point was that Mega Latios's better bulk helped with setting up, while it still has enough power over Mega Latias to justify using it instead. The thing is, in your case, you're comparing something that doesn't have to deal with Life Orb recoil to something that does, which was also part of his point - that Mega Latios still has decent power, for example you still 2HKO Chansey after SR, but it also has slightly better bulk and no Life Orb recoil. These are small reasons to use Mega Latios, but they're reasons nonetheless. No LO recoil is actually a pretty big deal, for example, as this means it's harder to wear down Mega Latios than it is to wear down LO Latios.
Mega Latias obviously has more of a niche, but not for any offensive Calm Mind set. It's because Mega Latias can pull off a good bulky CM set, which it does way better than regular Latias. Offensive CM Mega Latios's niches over CM Life Orb Latios are going to be much smaller, and Albacore's point was that Mega Latios's rank should be based on the merits of that set since it's the best thing you can salvage out of it. I only came here to point out the flaws in your calc logic.
But my point is that if you want bulk on your offensive calm mind set latias still does it better than latios because of its SIGNIFICANT increase in bulk and m-latios still loses out compared to life orb latios in terms of power which is the one and only slight advantage that m-latios has over m-latias in the first place. m-latios in my honest opinion doesn't hold enough of a niche as an offensive CM user as it simply doesn't have an area where it actually finds a niche. Being able to 2HKO chansey after a boost is all well and good, but since the only thing these two fear from a chansey is status in the first place and Latias sets up to the point where it can 2HKO Chansey anyway. Both Latios and Latias are going to be statused and the only thing Latios will have to show for it is that it gets one more turn before it has to switch out of toxic damage. I just fail to see where this minor increase in power is so necessary as to consider mega latios over Latias. If it's power then life orb is almost always better because of opportunity cost and if it's bulk then Latias is just so much more bulky and sets calm minds much more easily.
M.Latios has no good niche. It's DD set is outclassed by most mega DDers, mixed is outclassed by M.Altaria and to an extent LO Latios, and CM is outclassed by M.Latias.All M.Latios I've seen have been less threatening than normal Latios. M.Blastoise and other Cs have far more of a niche than it, and the only part of discussion is where it should drop to, not if it should drop.
I'm sorry if you're uneducated on what a D rank means, but please do your research. It deserves D rank, because it has most of a D rank's qualities. It has a niche, however outside of that niche its generally not useful. Also, I never suggested SD, you may have been confused by what I said, when I was saying it can beat SD lando-t to an extent. It beats talonflame through rock slide. Also, so what if doublade can sort of beat gallade, it is required to lose its eviolite in the process.
EDIT: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-205474813
I've won several tours with my granbull team, this isn't theorymoning. I don't save my replays, so I don't have much to show for at the moment, however I can get more soon.
Qwazz did say that he doesn't save replays very often. Focus more on the points he is making, they are all very solid and make me consider that maybe granbull does deserve d rank. (and remember guys, just because something is nu does not mean it is bad in ou and other higher tiers)
Cmon guys, Granbull? Seriously? What can it seriously do that Clefable cant do just as well, if not better. No reliable recovery, susceptible to burns, comparatively small movepool. Clefable can do everything Granbull does and more, SR, Wish Passing, Sableye counter, the list goes on. Something might be able to put in work in specific scenarios but why the hell would I bother using a sub par mon when theres a much better version of it, other than innovation points, dont rank this thing.
Yeah. maybe i'm too much.But why will u use this thing over mega gallade?Instant power?The ability to 2HKO clefable?Can u really give up the facts that mega gallade has like having swords dance,110 speed,better bulk and acess to knock off?What does this thing do better than gallade?Does it win against sableye?What about slowbro-mega?Having acess to fake out,instant power and the ability to 2HKO clefable might seem it has a niche but doesn't everything has a niche?Like lickititly being the only wish passer to immune taunt?In practice,is there really a time that u feel medicham will fit the team better than gallade?
Tornadus to Unranked
Same case with medicham-mega.Can u really give up tornadus'speed and regenerator just for better attacking stats(which can be easily got by residual damage?Do u really need that prankster rain dances so that u give up on outrunning serp,raikou,starmie and other stuff?Tornadus to unranked.
Yeah. maybe i'm too much.But why will u use this thing over mega gallade?Instant power?The ability to 2HKO clefable?Can u really give up the facts that mega gallade has like having swords dance,110 speed,better bulk and acess to knock off?What does this thing do better than gallade?Does it win against sableye?What about slowbro-mega?Having acess to fake out,instant power and the ability to 2HKO clefable might seem it has a niche but doesn't everything has a niche?Like lickititly being the only wish passer to immune taunt?In practice,is there really a time that u feel medicham will fit the team better than gallade?
Tornadus to Unranked
Same case with medicham-mega.Can u really give up tornadus'speed and regenerator just for better attacking stats(which can be easily got by residual damage?Do u really need that prankster rain dances so that u give up on outrunning serp,raikou,starmie and other stuff?Tornadus to unranked.
Being a rain player, I think I'll have to disagree with you on Tornadus. Tornadus is an excellent second rain setter, taking the pressure off Politoed and also hitting harder than Torn-T with 100% accuracy hurricanes. It does face competition from Klefki, but the power difference is really great .The extra speed is useful, but not as necessary on rain as packing swift swimmers such as Kingdra, Omastar, or Swampert (Excellent Raikou check) allows you to easily outspeed. Plus it has Torn-t's move pool to work with as well. Overall, I feel like Torn is ok in D and shouldn't go any lower when rain is present.
Keep Tornadus-I and Venomoth both in D rank please. Tornadus has Rain Dance and Tailwind Prankster that is a cool nice to have, while Quiver Dance Venomoth even is quite niche, it's still good enough to be D rank.
Yeah. maybe i'm too much.But why will u use this thing over mega gallade?Instant power?The ability to 2HKO clefable?Can u really give up the facts that mega gallade has like having swords dance,110 speed,better bulk and acess to knock off?What does this thing do better than gallade?Does it win against sableye?What about slowbro-mega?Having acess to fake out,instant power and the ability to 2HKO clefable might seem it has a niche but doesn't everything has a niche?Like lickititly being the only wish passer to immune taunt?In practice,is there really a time that u feel medicham will fit the team better than gallade?
I haven't used it yet in ORAS, but M-Medicham hits considerably harder than M-Gallade unboosted, and has Baton Pass to grab momentum. That being said it's usually outperformed by M-Gallade (who isn't even that great atm imo), but considering M-Gallade is a setup sweeper and M-Medicham is a wallbreaker I'm opposed to 'unranking' M-Medicham.
Mega Medicham should always be ranked imo by the standards we're holding in this thread; but ranking it above the Cs is an absolute joke. It's almost completely outclassed, it's role as a wallbreaker is made immensely harder thanks to Mega Sableye and Mega Slowbro; I really find it on the level of C- right now.
Medicham is fine where it’s at. People act like the meta is running around with mons that counter it, but in reality there are very few things that want to switch into this monster.
252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Slowbro: 164-194 (41.6 - 49.2%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
If Slowbro is that big of a problem, run Thunder Punch and 2HKO offensive/specially defensive variants. And this is Jolly Cham, Adamant guarantees the 2HKOs. Here are some more calcs against “bulky” mons
252+ Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 273-322 (90.3 - 106.6%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Altaria: 160-190 (45.1 - 53.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 210-247 (53.2 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Mega Scizor: 289-342 (84.2 - 99.7%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
-1 252+ Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Zen Headbutt vs. 88 HP / 4 Def Gyarados: 193-228 (54.6 - 64.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
I’m not sure if those are optimal spreads for those mons, but all I’m trying to prove is this: it seems like a lot of people forgot how difficult it is to switch into this thing because of how low in usage it is. Yes Mega Sableye is a problem, it’s difficult to get in safely and it’s usually either walled by Landorus-T or Mega Slowbro depending on the set (although I find HJK/Zen Headbutt/TPunch/Ice Punch most effective), but besides those every time Medicham comes in safely against something it forces out, something is taking serious damage. Like holy shit
252+ Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 194-228 (48 - 56.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
You guys want this in C- next to fucking Gourgeist?!
I agree that M-Medicham should always be ranked. Yes, M-Sableye and M-Slowbro screw it over, and most of us have accepted that M-Gallade outclasses it, but its immediate power and movepool make it worth staying ranked. I know others have said this before, but just because two (Mega) Pokémon have the same typing and (sort of) similar stat spreads doesn't mean they're identical. Hell, M-Medicham doesn't even have a way of increasing its attack, but it tears holes through opponents with its already sky-high immediate power. Gallade has to Swords Dance in order to start sweeping through more bulky mons. So yeah, Gallade is a setup sweeper, while Medicham is a wallbreaker. Same typing, but different roles.
Why more people don't understand this at this point in the meta, I don't know. But yeah, keep Medicham in C+, I guess. I mean, unless you really know what you're doing, stick with Gallade at the moment.
Why is unranking Mega Medicham even a discussion? It might be outclassed by Mega Gallade, and it might be walled by Mega Sableye and Mega Bro but that doesn't mean that it's bad enough in OU to the point of not even being relevant. Once those mons on the opponents team are taken out, this thing hits like a brick on steroids. It manages to tear plenty of holes into teams that aren't prepared for it, and it's still something scary if you haven't got something faster. Personally, I'd keep Mega Medicham in C+/B- if only because, despite being beat by a few top tier mons, it still manages to rip holes into teams and be a formidable presence.
To weigh in on the Medicham discussion as well, I feel like wanting it unranked is grossly underselling it.
240+ Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 384-453 (112.6 - 132.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 252-297 (73.9 - 87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
On relatively even terms, Mega Medicham hits much harder than Gardevoir, who's always lauded for ridiculous power. Remember, this thing's power is only slightly below that of Mega Mawile.
I don't think Medicham is held back quite as much by new checks and counters as it seems: it's less that there are tons of answers to it around now (with different coverage, it can deal with many would be checks)
-1 240+ Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Landorus-T: 420-496 (131.6 - 155.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
240+ Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 271-319 (90 - 105.9%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO (So Metagross has to be pre-Mega'd and basically untouched to ensure the win)
240+ Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Altaria: 202-238 (57 - 67.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Mega Medicham's biggest problem is more that it got maybe 2-3 new checks/counters, but that they're prevalent on Stall, the playstyle it arguably performs best against. That said, considering the prevalence of those two, expecting a team to have an answer to them is also not unheard of, and Medicham can viably run through just about everything else Stall runs beyond them.
As for Gallade, I think there's a misconception about why it outclasses Medicham, if that is indeed the case. It's not that Gallade does everything Medicham does but better (maybe there are mons that do, but Gallade is not one I'd think of), but rather that Gallade plays a role that's more important in the current Meta (A fast offensive) sweeper while still having some of the capability that Medicham does against Stall (but that turn for SD set-up can make a difference for the Stall player if physical sweepers were accounted for). People always assume that Mega Medicham's only niche is greater power. Whether or not that's true, the difference in strength is pretty significant.
240+ Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 384-453 (112.6 - 132.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Mega Gallade Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 235-277 (68.9 - 81.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
And being able to 2HKO Clefable may not seem like much, but consider then that Clefable is an incredibly versatile Fairy and often something of a secondary glue for a team. The little Pink alien is also somewhat annoying to kill, considering it either shrugs off all passive damage with Magic Guard (meaning Gallade can't rely on hazard damage or such to get it in 2HKO range), or Unaware to stop set up sweepers that should break it (including Gallade's Swords Dance), coupled often in both cases with some form of recovery. Considering that in things like a FSD core the Fairy is the best Fighting switch-in, losing to the Fighting type can put the team in an awkward position with switch-ins.
That said Gallade is still being countered by the same Megas (with how little discussion I see, I consider Skill Swap a gimmick only used if Sableye is THAT big of a problem).
252 Atk Mega Gallade Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 53-63 (17.4 - 20.7%) -- possible 5HKO
252 Atk Mega Gallade Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Slowbro: 80-96 (20.3 - 24.3%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
That said, I can certainly see what holds Medicham back. It's not bulky in any sense of the word, and if you want it to put in work against offense, it has some 4MSS: It needs STABs, but also wants Fake Out to Mega, Thunder and Ice Punch for coverage, Bullet Punch is its only priority weak or not, Poison Jab for Fairies, and if you want to get really niche, Drain Punch to heal off passive damage or Substitute for Prediction/Status Protection would be nice.
And as far as Stall, while it does hit like a battering ram, it still needs that one counter removed before it can break them. And of course, there's the ever present argument of opportunity cost for the Mega Slot, considering it competes with Gardevoir and Heracross as a wallbreaker, though they also didn't get the best deal out of the gross shifts in the Meta either. Weird as it sounds, I think Medicham would probably rise (if only to B rank) if even just one of those two was out of the way.
With just Sableye around, Medicham would pull its weight consistently just by being paired with a Fairy like Sylveon or Clefable, while Slowbro could be handled with some hazards and Thunderpunch if not just paired with something like Serperior or an Electric type
240+ Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Slowbro: 90-106 (22.8 - 26.9%) -- 41.1% chance to 4HKO
240+ Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 202-238 (51.2 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
240+ Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Slowbro: 140-166 (35.5 - 42.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (Minimum rolls for Thunderpunch add up to 86.7%. 86.7%+12.5% from rocks =99.2%, meaning w/ Stealth Rock Slowbro loses)
Obviously Medicham wouldn't be consistently beating Slowbro, but just to show that Slowbro would have to be careful if it wants to use Medicham as its Mega bait.
But to stop before I continue rambling, Medicham is better than Gallade at what it does, just that what Gallade does better is more useful in this Meta. Keep Medicham ranked (in it's current C+ preferably).
Mega Latios is a really weird Pokemon. It falls into the same category as Mega Garchomp - pretty good, but just kinda overshadowed by other stuff. But Mega Latios suffers from this a bit more - because while it's by no means a bad Pokemon and is mostly a better Latios aside from lack of item-holding, it's that crucial mega slot that holds it back. It's just very tricky to place this because it can't be in A since regular Latios can use DD (very, very rarely) without wasting the slot; while B implies it's good but has flaws (it does, but its flaw is just that it's a mega), and C implies that it's sorta not that great, but it is good on its own, when not compared to any other mon.
The problem with Mega Latios is that you have to give your Mega Slot to something else that absolutely need the Mega Slot to function (unlike Latios).
Seeing a Mega Latios set like this
Latios @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Psyshock
- Earthquake/Surf/HP Fire
- Defog/Roost
252 SpA Mega Latios Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Shaymin: 247-292 (72.4 - 85.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
to
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Shaymin: 277-328 (81.2 - 96.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Actually, Mega Latios is even weaker than Life Orb Latios (even though it's bulk make up for it). This is the reason why unboosted 120-130 megas are not as high as other Pokemon.
I also support the call to Keep Mega Medicham in C+. It's not as scary as it once was; base 100 Speed is no longer a benchmark. New ORAS threats make it's life much harder and Mega Gallade outclasses it in almost every aspect. It's only priority to mitigate it's Speed is Bullet Punch. But Medicham deserves it's C+ status, or at the very lowest C, pretty much exclusively for Pure Power. This thing is more powerful than Specs Sylveon. Here's a pair of calcs which should only be treated as a comparison of power and nothing more:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 280-330 (82.1 - 96.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
240+ Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 384-453 (112.6 - 132.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
I'm not trying to say that this is as good as Sylveon(who needs to move up) - despite better Speed and not being Choice Locked (bit of a moot point in Sylveon's case, but whatever, an advantage nonetheless). But this kind of power is just obscene. What is safe from this thing? Not a lot. OK, Gallade is better, despite having a different role, and even that's not great. OK, it's really easy to revenge kill, but it's a Wallbreaker, not a Sweeper. OK, the meta shift was not kind to it in any way. OK, it eats a Mega Slot. It's not giving Lando-T any sleepless nights in the usage stats and probably won't any time soon. But unranking it? I think you're being a little harsh. I also think you haven't even used it, and forgive me if I am being a little harsh. Usually, raw power isn't enough to justify using one Pokemon over another when the other is inarguably better in every other way, but Medi is an exemplary case: it hits harder than a Nissan doing ninety, and if it gets in at a good time, something's gonna die. Surely that's a trait keeping it worthy of it's current ranking - or indeed, any ranking at all.
Even though Quiverpass might not be so good nowadays, it can still make Venomoth one of the best Bpassers in the tier becuse passing +1 Spa and Spe benefits a huge array of pokemon (like Lando-I, Starmie, Keldeo, just to give a few examples) while it has a much better type than Masquerain. So Vmoth stays in D
Plus Vmoth is BL so we have to rank it.
While QuiverPass can work well in combination with a special attacker, very rarely is a recipient going to be abuse it consistently enough for Venomoth to even be worth merit. Even at +1, recipients are very rarely going to sweep with a QuiverPass boost until the end of the game, and even then, why bother wasting a teamslot for such an inconsistent Pokemon when there are a bunch of better forms of cleaning, such as Hawlucha, Dragon Dance Zard X / Mega Altaria / Gyarados both Mega and nonMega, Belly Drum Azumarill, Swords Dance Talonflame, ..... all of these Pokemon are usually more consistent and usually easier for offensive teams to utilize without forgoing offensive pressure. Very rarely will one of Venomoth's teammates get to sweep an entire competent team at +1, except against some forms of hyper offense. Just because something can Baton Pass does not mean it is automatically viable.
Also, Mawile was OU for a period of time after its Mega got banned, and yet, it never received a rank. If we did not rank non-Mega Mawile after its Mega got banned and the Pokemon itself was still OU, then we can avoid ranking Venomoth when it is BL.
Keep Tornadus-I and Venomoth both in D rank please. Tornadus has Rain Dance and Tailwind Prankster that is a cool nice to have, while Quiver Dance Venomoth even is quite niche, it's still good enough to be D rank.
Tornadus-I is ranked because it has additional power over Tornadus-T that allows it to get past certain threats, most notably Rotom-W. Prankster Rain Dance and Tailwind are just icing on the cake. Also, if Venomoth was good at all at OU, it would be more apparent, because it would actually be more usable and consistent, and would be worth using on any team. People say that Venomoth has a niche, but just because something has a niche on paper does not mean it is worth labeling as having some sort of viability. Venomoth does not fit on any team style that is not dedicated towards its boosting, which is usually very gimmicky and inconsistent because QuiverPass is not as breaking as a well-built GeoPass team, and Venomoth is also not that difficult to stop due to being able to be stopped by a number of Pokemon in the metagame, most notably Ferrothorn and Talonflame.
Even with these boosting moves it's still largely outclassed by mega gallade which, while not as powerful unboosted, still outclasses it. Swords dance provides immediate and a frightening amount of power that not even the sturdiest walls in OU can stop.
Mega medicham should move down to C- because it's just not fast enough anymore compared to some of the new megas on top of having quite underwhelming defenses. This combined with its inability to get past bulky psychics just spells doom for it. If you want a ridiculously powerful psychic/fighting type just use mega gallade with swords dance.
If we have to rank things that are OU by usage or are BL, yet are unviable, then we should have another rank like other tiers for the pure purpose of showing they're unviable. It wouldn't make sense to put them on D where there are Pokémon that actually are viable.
Thanks for all the discussion so far on the current slate. We are aware of inconsistencies in the lower rankings, so we've decided that the next update will have a verdict on the current slate, as well as a complete rework of the lower rankings
