Other ORAS Metagame Discussion

[D_what]

How useful is Custap Skarmory really? I've never used it or taken much note of it - what kind of team builds does it work with, and how does it rank on the Gimmick/Viable Set scale? (also wasn't a lack of Custap berry one of the issues that drove one of these things into Forretress's viability ranking coffin during early XY?)

I like it when I get to use different/niche items on my OU teams. If I'm lucky it means I can wistfully pretend that item-clause in-game isn't a total bitch. *le sigh*

 

[Josh Morales]

How useful is Custap Skarmory really? I've never used it or taken much note of it - what kind of team builds does it work with, and how does it rank on the Gimmick/Viable Set scale? (also wasn't a lack of Custap berry one of the issues that drove one of these things into Forretress's viability ranking coffin during early XY?)

I like it when I get to use different/niche items on my OU teams. If I'm lucky it means I can wistfully pretend that item-clause in-game isn't a total bitch. *le sigh*

If you were to ever use Custap Skarm I would assume it would be on a Hyper Offence team, although I wouldn't recommend its use.

 

[Hogg]

Custap Skarm/Forry were decent (though overhyped) last gen, but that was before Defog became a thing. Custap leads are by their nature suicidal, so even if you've got a Bisharp to discourage Defog, as long as the opponent doesn't get swept at +2 they can probably get your hazards off the field.

I imagine it will see use but not be as good as it was last gen. Also, I kind of think Forry might be better here, with the ability to threaten Defoggers and Spinners alike with Custap Explosion, which will block things for a turn and give you a free switch to something like Scarftar or Pursuit Weavile. (Skarmory's Custap Taunt or 1 HP Brave Bird functions similarly, but with less offensive merit.)

 

[Josh Morales]

Custap Skarm/Forry were decent (though overhyped) last gen, but that was before Defog became a thing. Custap leads are by their nature suicidal, so even if you've got a Bisharp to discourage Defog, as long as the opponent doesn't get swept at +2 they can probably get your hazards off the field.

I imagine it will see use but not be as good as it was last gen. Also, I kind of think Forry might be better here, with the ability to threaten Defoggers and Spinners alike with Custap Explosion, which will block things for a turn and give you a free switch to something like Scarftar or Pursuit Weavile. (Skarmory's Custap Taunt or 1 HP Brave Bird functions similarly, but with less offensive merit.)

Yeah and I think Custap Shuckle would be good for Sticky Web teams, if they try to defog your shit then they can have fun getting encored.

 

[Miridy]

Diancie does not stop Custap Mory anyways, Salac mory is seen running Iron Head in its moveslot, which ohkoes Mega Diancie.
Anyways, I can only see Skarmory as a solid Custap Berry user, neverthless, it won't be as good as gen V due to Magic Bouncers and Defoggers, it sure will help Bisharp see more usage as a teammate (which btw it's 4° on the 1825 stats, not a bad feat).

 

[Hogg]

The only problem with Iron Head is that it means you have to give up either BB or Taunt. BB lets you kill yourself at 1 HP to block spinners and get a free switch in, and Taunt is pretty essential for obvious reasons.

Forry doesn't get Taunt, of course, so it pretty much solely has to rely on Explosion, but at least that tends to hurt most defoggers enough that you can bring in a fast Pursuit trapper to finish the job. And it can run Gyro Ball to beat Diancie in that last slot.

 

[Miridy]

The set is usually BB/IH/SR/Spikes, yes losing Taunt is a turn off, you aren't Deoxys-s/d after all but just wanted to point out that due to Iron Head's commoness you don't want to risk losing your mega slot against it

 

[RoyalDispenser]

Serebii:
Pokémon Bank - New Gift

It has been announced that the Johto Starters are to be distributed this year with their Hidden Abilities. From February 27th 2015 to November 30th 2015, if you access Pokémon Bank, you will receive Meganium, Typhlosion and Feraligatr with their Hidden Abilities of Leaf Guard, Flash Fire and Sheer Force respectively. These are distributed through the Pokémon Link feature nto Pokémon X, Y, Omega Ruby or Alpha Sapphire with a limit of 1 of each per Pokémon Bank

 

[Kurona]

Serebii:
Pokémon Bank - New Gift

It has been announced that the Johto Starters are to be distributed this year with their Hidden Abilities. From February 27th 2015 to November 30th 2015, if you access Pokémon Bank, you will receive Meganium, Typhlosion and Feraligatr with their Hidden Abilities of Leaf Guard, Flash Fire and Sheer Force respectively. These are distributed through the Pokémon Link feature nto Pokémon X, Y, Omega Ruby or Alpha Sapphire with a limit of 1 of each per Pokémon Bank

Was going to post that; but decided against it because I really don't think they're going to have an effect on the OU meta. Gator's outclassed by Gyara, Typhlosion's outclassed by every fire-type basically, and Meganium... not even going to humour this one.

 

[Aquaslash]

Gator's outclassed by Gyara,

I think Gatr vs Gyara will be like Serperior vs Sceptile, where Gatr is the alternative if you don't wanna burn a mega slot

 

[JebusChrist]

I think Gatr vs Gyara will be like Serperior vs Sceptile, where Gatr is the alternative if you don't wanna burn a mega slot

But Gyarados doesn't need to be your Mega...

 

[Kurona]

I think Gatr vs Gyara will be like Serperior vs Sceptile, where Gatr is the alternative if you don't wanna burn a mega slot

I was referring to non-mega Gyara as well lol.
Serperior and Sceptile aren't comparable in the slightest as they do completely different jobs. Gator and Gyara are both physical set-up sweepers of the water type.

 

[Aquaslash]

I was referring to non-mega Gyara as well lol.
Serperior and Sceptile aren't comparable in the slightest as they do completely different jobs. Gator and Gyara are both physical set-up sweepers of the water type.

Ok, well how does Gyara outclass gatr then? Like, legit question. I'm seeing gatr hit harder with a jolly nature vs Gyara with an Adamant.

EDIT: the calcs I used

252+ Atk Life Orb Gyarados Waterfall vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 242-285 (37.6 - 44.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 253-298 (39.4 - 46.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

[p2]

About time Sheer Force Feraligatr was announced

There are plenty of reasons to justify using it over Gyarados and vice versa, they're similar but they both have their advantages and disadvantages over each other. Saying Gyara outclasses Feraligatr is just blatantly wrong

 

[Kurona]

Ok, well how does Gyara outclass gatr then? Like, legit question. I'm seeing gatr hit harder with a jolly nature vs Gyara with an Adamant.

To put it simply, Gyara's own abilities. It can either create a lot more set-up opportunities with Intimidate combined with 95/79/100 bulk, or if you want to compare with a situation in which Feraligatr sets up regardless, Gyarados in the same situation sets up with it's own comparable and arguably better bulk and then get even more power through Moxie boosts.
There is also the matter that Gyara is able to just outspeed base 80s like Altaria whereas Gator is not (slightly lower speed at 78; bit of a shame really).
I guess you could also say Gyara has a secondary STAB in Bounce but not gonna count that as one of the main points.
The only true scenario in which Gator is not outclassed by Moxie Gyarados is in initial power. Once Gyarados gets it's sweep going it is a better Feraligatr.

 

[Voltage]

In any case, Sheer Force Gatr is going to be a mon that will see usage in OU when it's released. It could be argued that even regular Gyarados is a better Set-up sweeper, but if you compare DDgyarados to LO Gatr, then it's like comparing apples to pineapples. They might sound similar but they play vastly different. Sheer Force gatr most likely has different coverage than regular Gyarados, and could be used as an alternate to Mega Gyarados if you don't want to use your Mega. That being said, I probably won't be choosing LOGatr over Gyarados when it comes to looking for a strong physical water type.

And also, lol @ anyone thinking Meganium or Typhlosion will be at all usable.

 

[Salemance]

Huh, so as gimmicky as it would be, scarf flash fire eruptions...

Either or, pretty cool Gatr is getting sheer force. It has the ability hit harder and while yes its not able to compare to Gyara in bulkier set ups, its able to overall in just more power. Its got the capability to boost either SD or DDance and either or will be nice. I cant recall what it would be running outside of ice punch and waterfall, but it could be nice alternatively that isnt outclassed like it has been.


Am gonna have to look up what leaf guard does again though. After staring at it for forever for theorymons ya think id recall it by now...

 

[haunter]

SF Feraligatr hits substantially harder than Mega-Gyarados. To put things into perspective:
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 93-111 (27.8 - 33.2%) -- 89.4% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 121-142 (36.2 - 42.5%) -- 93.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

After a single Dragon Dance, Gatr does up to 63% to a fully invested physical Skarmory. While Gyarados has overall better stats, Feraligatr doesn't lose 25% of its health upon switching into SR. Gatr also has Swords Dance to wallbreak and a solid learnset to abuse Sheer Force (see Waterfall, Ice Punch, Crunch) and priority in Aqua Jet. Probably not something that will have a massive impact on the metagame, but definitely a new threat to consider when building teams.

 

[Simperheve]

Huh, so as gimmicky as it would be, scarf flash fire eruptions...

Either or, pretty cool Gatr is getting sheer force. It has the ability hit harder and while yes its not able to compare to Gyara in bulkier set ups, its able to overall in just more power. Its got the capability to boost either SD or DDance and either or will be nice. I cant recall what it would be running outside of ice punch and waterfall, but it could be nice alternatively that isnt outclassed like it has been.


Am gonna have to look up what leaf guard does again though. After staring at it for forever for theorymons ya think id recall it by now...

Leaf Guard prevents you from getting status effects while sun is up. Essentially it's a nerfed version of Magic Bounce which requires sun to activate. Given Meganium's underwhelming stats and movepool, I don't think a conditional ability that is outclassed by Magic Bounce is going to put it up in usage at all. Really they should have at least given it Chloropyll or something, then it could of at least tried to be useful in Sun Teams.

I think Typhlosion might see a rise in usage. Typhlosion's Eruption already does a significant chunk of damage without getting a boost by switching into a fire move.

I think Gatr will probably see the most rise in usage, though I could see it needing Tailwind support in order to help it outspeed and KO 'mons ahead of its speed bracket.

 

[Salemance]

Leaf Guard prevents you from getting status effects while sun is up. Essentially it's a nerfed version of Magic Bounce which requires sun to activate. Given Meganium's underwhelming stats and movepool, I don't think a conditional ability that is outclassed by Magic Bounce is going to put it up in usage at all. Really they should have at least given it Chloropyll or something, then it could of at least had a place in Sun Teams.

I think Typhlosion might see a rise in usage. Typhlosion's Eruption already does a significant chunk of damage without getting a boost by switching into a fire move.

I think Gatr will probably see the most rise in usage, though I could see it needing Tailwind support in order to help it outspeed and KO 'mons ahead of its speed bracket.

Ah thats right. Some reason i thought it was like flower veil for a sec (ya know, out of sun it stopped hazards).


Anyway, i think the least Gatr could do is be bit fun to use. To bad i cant experiment with him for 22 days.

 

[SP458]

Serebii:
Pokémon Bank - New Gift

It has been announced that the Johto Starters are to be distributed this year with their Hidden Abilities. From February 27th 2015 to November 30th 2015, if you access Pokémon Bank, you will receive Meganium, Typhlosion and Feraligatr with their Hidden Abilities of Leaf Guard, Flash Fire and Sheer Force respectively. These are distributed through the Pokémon Link feature nto Pokémon X, Y, Omega Ruby or Alpha Sapphire with a limit of 1 of each per Pokémon Bank

The only one with a glimpse of viability in OU would be Feraligatr and even then it will face competition with (Mega) Gyarados as a Dragon Dancer. Let's see how well it performs in terms of damage output:
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 286-337 (83.8 - 98.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 192+ Atk Gyarados Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 201-237 (58.9 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Gyarados Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 273-321 (80 - 94.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 246-289 (72.1 - 84.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

...well, Jolly Feraligatr hits harder than Adamant base Gyarados while hitting the nice speed of 420, outpacing everything with 135 base Speed or lower (the only difference with Jolly Gyarados is that Gyara can also outspeed Mega Sceptile and Mega Beedrill). It also has Low Kick for a high chance (68%) of 2HKOing Ferrothorn after SR without any boost and Aqua Jet for faster Scarf users and the aforementioned Mega Beedrill.

Feraligatr also learns Swords Dance for wallbreaking duties. The most important calc is:
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force burned Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 129-152 (42.4 - 50%) -- 90.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Other walls are easily torn into pieces between Waterfall and Crunch (you'll need Ice Punch for Mega Altaria, though).

Pros for Feraligatr:
- Higher damage output
- Wallbreaks with Swords Dance
- Lower residual damage overall (no LO recoil and only loses 1/8 on SR, but rejoined by Leftovers and Mega Gyarados)
- Can 2HKO Ferrothorn with Low Kick at +0 (Mega Gyarados needs the Dragon Dance boost for this)
- Priority
- Does not take up the Mega slot

Pros for (Mega) Gyarados:
- More opportunities between Water/Flying, Intimidate, Lum Berry and/or Sub
- Secondary STAB in Crunch (Mega) or Bounce (base)
- Mold Breaker as Mega vs. Sturdy & Magic Bounce
- Stallbreaks with Taunt

 

[Karxrida]

Leaf Guard prevents you from getting status effects while sun is up. Essentially it's a nerfed version of Magic Bounce which requires sun to activate. Given Meganium's underwhelming stats and movepool, I don't think a conditional ability that is outclassed by Magic Bounce is going to put it up in usage at all. Really they should have at least given it Chloropyll or something, then it could of at least had a place in Sun Teams.

I think Typhlosion might see a rise in usage. Typhlosion's Eruption already does a significant chunk of damage without getting a boost by switching into a fire move.

I think Gatr will probably see the most rise in usage, though I could see it needing Tailwind support in order to help it outspeed and KO 'mons ahead of its speed bracket.

If it had Chlorophyll, why would you use it over Venusaur?

Typhlosion's Eruption gets ruined by Stealth Rock (112 BP at 75%), and nobody is going to use Fire attacks with you around unless it's a Heatran fishing for Lava Plume burns since it proceeds to give 0 fucks about you.

252 SpA Typhlosion Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 192+ SpD Heatran: 170-200 (44.1 - 51.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 192+ SpD Heatran: 252-298 (65.4 - 77.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

You're forced to run Scarf to make it remotely viable, so Heatran can now just switch to something that resists/is immune like Chesnaught (lol) if you happen to hit it on the switch in, or even stay in and set up Rocks in case Focus Blast misses (and it will).

Gator seems cool but being forced to run Jolly for Mega Manectric and Mega Lopunny kinda sucks. At least it can stop Banded Talonflame revenges with Aqua Jet.

+1 252 Atk Life Orb Feraligatr Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Talonflame: 289-343 (97.3 - 115.4%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

 

[sickweare]

The only one with a glimpse of viability in OU would be Feraligatr and even then it will face competition with (Mega) Gyarados as a Dragon Dancer. Let's see how well it performs in terms of damage output:
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 286-337 (83.8 - 98.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 192+ Atk Gyarados Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 201-237 (58.9 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Gyarados Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 273-321 (80 - 94.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 246-289 (72.1 - 84.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

...well, Jolly Feraligatr hits harder than Adamant base Gyarados while hitting the nice speed of 420, outpacing everything with 135 base Speed or lower (the only difference with Jolly Gyarados is that Gyara can also outspeed Mega Sceptile and Mega Beedrill). It also has Low Kick for a high chance (68%) of 2HKOing Ferrothorn after SR without any boost and Aqua Jet for faster Scarf users and the aforementioned Mega Beedrill.

Feraligatr also learns Swords Dance for wallbreaking duties. The most important calc is:
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force burned Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 129-152 (42.4 - 50%) -- 90.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Other walls are easily torn into pieces between Waterfall and Crunch (you'll need Ice Punch for Mega Altaria, though).

Pros for Feraligatr:
- Higher damage output
- Wallbreaks with Swords Dance
- Lower residual damage overall (no LO recoil and only loses 1/8 on SR, but rejoined by Leftovers and Mega Gyarados)
- Can 2HKO Ferrothorn with Low Kick at +0 (Mega Gyarados needs the Dragon Dance boost for this)
- Priority
- Does not take up the Mega slot

I don't play OU much, but I was just playing around with the calc and saw Focus Blast is an option Gatr gets that is boosted by Sheer Force, so that's an option to avoid Life Orb+Iron Barbs recoil. Gatr needs Naive to guarantee a 2hko (plus accuracy is ass), but if you're worried about hitting ferrothorn it's an option.

 

[Karxrida]

I don't play OU much, but I was just playing around with the calc and saw Focus Blast is an option Gatr gets that is boosted by Sheer Force, so that's an option to avoid Life Orb+Iron Barbs recoil. Gatr needs Naive to guarantee a 2hko (plus accuracy is ass), but if you're worried about hitting ferrothorn it's an option.

Or just run Magnezone, which also helps deal some damage to bulky Water that would give Feraligatr trouble if it ran Aqua Jet over Crunch.

 

[deluge]

I don't play OU much, but I was just playing around with the calc and saw Focus Blast is an option Gatr gets that is boosted by Sheer Force, so that's an option to avoid Life Orb+Iron Barbs recoil. Gatr needs Naive to guarantee a 2hko (plus accuracy is ass), but if you're worried about hitting ferrothorn it's an option.

The accuracy is terrible but it is kind of cool that Gatr can 2hko without SpA investment, setup, or recoil.