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Can't switch into flash cannon or shadow ball. HP ice
Doesn't appreciate sacred sword or head smash.
Jolly max speed Sacred swords. (Although bisharp could easily run jolly nature.. however he still must be wary on switch.)
To a degree I suspose..
Same as lando.
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Anyway, yeah aegislash discussion should end. I do agree with haunter about what's priority right now. I'm anti-ban about scolipede for the same reasoning right now as he's not some dominate threat in OU currently. Likewise for smeargle. Whether they're broken or not.. I can't honestly argue for either, it's much trickier to argue for them not being broken than them being broken certainly... however there are bigger problems in OU.
Mega sableye.. I'm honestly leaning anti-ban because like slowbro, he's not as broken as he was in the early oras meta.. fairies pressure him, new threats in serperior and even emboar counter, while power creep does pull through pressuring him more from pokemon like dragalge.
I notice a difference in HO because of sableye too.. I see some pokemon actually increasing in viability. Namely volcarona and SD talonflame, the only pokes with their viability being lost is gallade, and metacham. One potentially broken after sableye and M-gross leave.. and the other risking UU.
Head Smash killed itself and Jolly max speed had no bulk invesment so it couldn't pivot as well and got scared out by more, all just so it could kill one of its checks. Both set were overspecialized. Bisharp has also been running Jolly LO (which can still OHKO Aegislash) itself a lot more so it wouldn't even work anyway.
252 Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 240 HP / 16 Def Aegislash-Shield: 281-330 (87.5 - 102.8%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
SpD Heatran does take quite a bit from Sacred Sword, but it's still a solid answer since the sword needs Rocks up to have a good chance to 2HKO (2% otherwise), gets outsped, and Heatran can use Protect once to get Lefties and avoid getting killed.
0 Atk Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 176-208 (45.7 - 54%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery ((4.1% chance with Stealth Rock)
252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 228-270 (59.2 - 70.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
btw pure physical is ass because you can throw Lando-T at it and call it a day.
Head Smash killed itself and Jolly max speed had no bulk invesment so it couldn't pivot as well and got scared out by more, all just so it could kill one of its checks. Both set were overspecialized. Bisharp has also been running Jolly LO (which can still OHKO Aegislash) itself a lot more so it wouldn't even work anyway.
252 Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 240 HP / 16 Def Aegislash-Shield: 281-330 (87.5 - 102.8%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
SpD Heatran does take quite a bit from Sacred Sword, but it's still a solid answer since the sword needs Rocks up to have a good chance to 2HKO (2% otherwise), gets outsped, and Heatran can use Protect once to get Lefties and avoid getting killed.
0 Atk Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 176-208 (45.7 - 54%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery ((4.1% chance with Stealth Rock)
252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 228-270 (59.2 - 70.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
btw pure physical is ass because you can throw Lando-T at it and call it a day.
A LO 4 attacks set was viable and was in the analysis when it was OU. Aegislas wasn't just a bulky pivot. It was a wallbreaker, fucking bulky and fucking hard hitting pivot, and a wall with the SubToxic set. It was uniquitously made clear among everyone(at least everyone who was a decent player or had a sense of logic) who played during Aegislash's existance in OU that in had absolutely 0 100% counters and that still hasn't changed today. SpD Heatran has no business trying to switch into a LO Sacred Sword even uninvested.
Don't get me wrong, I never went as far as to say that Gorebyss is on the same level as scoli or smeargle (though I have not claimed the opposite either), I was more addressing this post:
These two statements are simply incorrect. Gorebyss and Huntail are perfectly capable of passing defensive boosts. Perhaps not as effectively as scoli, but capable nonetheless. As stated earlier, geopass Smeargle needs team support because without it, he simply will get one shotted the moment he tries to setup. He is actually very unreliable without some team support. That doesn't make Smeargle not broken any more then having access to defense boosting moves make Gorebyss broken, but I want this discussion to be grounded in actual facts as much as possible.
The main point I made in the post you quoted is that it would be incredibly short-sighted to assume that Scolipede and Smeargle are going to be the only two broken passers we will ever see, therefore we need to figure out what makes them broken and come up with some standards for determining if other passers are broken. If we find that some mons that we've previously overlooked happen to be broken, so be it. If we find that you're right and that there are no other broken passers at this time, then great, we'll still have these standards for when next gen inevitably grants us an even more ridiculous passer.
Maybe capable is not the right word so much as viable.
Smeragle can survive some weaker attacks: 0 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Smeargle: 229-270 (72.9 - 85.9%)
As I said earlier, it can also set up on things it outspeeds too, but yet team support does make its just much more easier.
I don't believe there is just one benchmark or amount of stat boosts we can look at and auto decide its broken. No there may be other broken passers in future, but I think they are only currently broken ones. Its the fact they can boost several stats quite easily in front of most of the meta., then use those boosts to gain more boosts, then easily pass away.
A LO 4 attacks set was viable and was in the analysis when it was OU. Aegislas wasn't just a bulky pivot. It was a wallbreaker, fucking bulky and fucking hard hitting pivot, and a wall with the SubToxic set. It was uniquitously made clear among everyone(at least everyone who was a decent player or had a sense of logic) who played during Aegislash's existance in OU that in had absolutely 0 100% counters and that still hasn't changed today. SpD Heatran has no business trying to switch into a LO Sacred Sword even uninvested.
Can we please now drop the discussion of Aegislash? Haunter made clear that it doesn't have priority now.
But a few last things to you:
1. No counters doesn't mean it is broken.
2. Aegislash has a counter, it's called Amoongus.
3. Every decent player with a sense of logic agreed that Aegislash was not broken but overcentralizing.
I will write about the other stuff tomorrow because I am tired...
I'd like some discussion about Baton Pass to try to figure out what exactly makes it broken. If there's anybody who believes that the current sets of GeoPass, SmashPass, or ScoliPass are not broken, I'd really like it if you said something. Haven't heard anything from you guys (if you exist).
So what makes passing from Smeargle/Scolipede so borked as opposed to others? I believe it's a combination of being able to achieve "free" boosts and being able to boost more than one stat in a single turn. Smeargle achieves the former through its access to spore and dark void, which means that if it comes in for free against something slower than it and the opposing team lacks an extremely fast/prankster taunt user or a grass type (only if Smeargle uses spore) then Smeargle can use its sleep move and then use its next turn as a guaranteed free turn to set up. Scolipede lacks a sleep move, but instead has protect in order to guarantee +1 speed, which is certainly helpful.
The next important point is boosting more than one stat in a turn. This is huge because Smeargle takes exactly one turn to make a terrifying sweeper with Geomancy or Shell Smash and Scolipede also takes a single exposed turn to set up Iron Defense and get a speed boost. This means that they spend minimal time exposed to attempts to kill or to taunt. Of course they can choose to remain in and accumulate more stat boosts, but the single turn before they can Baton Pass for an appreciable advantage sets them apart.
When we look at other Baton Pass capable Pokemon, few have either of these qualities. Several have access to calm mind or work up, but these boosts are comparatively minimal and do not immediately allow for switching to a sweeper. A couple have stockpile or cosmic power, which is more threatening, especially if it is passed to something like DD XZard or another offensive booster. There are a couple with bulk up, but they are unfortunately rather frail. Ninjask can boost more than one stat in a single turn, but it's extremely frail.
For boosting speed, which is arguably the most important boost Smeargle or Scolipede provide, there are pure speed boosting moves (which leave the user wide open) and the two big ones people usually bring up as a response for why just banning Scolipede and Smeargle isn't enough: Quiver Dance and Shell Smash. The Pokemon with access to Baton Pass and Quiver Dance are Venomoth and Masquerain. Of the two, Venomoth is significantly more viable. What significantly hurts them is their lack of natural defenses, somewhat lackluster speed, inability to force free turns, and particular weakness to Talonflame. In addition, even Quiver Dance isn't enough often for sweeping, and requires two turns. Shell Smash is the exclusive property of Huntail and Gorebyss and is without a doubt a concern. What holds them back is their poor speed (which means they have to sacrifice bulk in order to make sure their Baton Pass goes first, and even then many scarfers still outspeed), and once again the lack of ability to find free turns. Their bulk isn't fantastic, which hurts their viability for brokenness somewhat.
Free turns is a little more difficult to quantify. Ninjask can do it in a similar manner as Scolipede, Shedinja can do it (but it's shedinja), and there are probably others I'm overlooking. Several have safe pokemon to come in freely on, but those are rather matchup dependent. Scolipede and Smeargle really do stick out to me for those qualities, but I was also working backwards from the premise that they are broken, so I appreciate you pointing out what's so wrong it makes Arceus cry.
Of course, even if these are the qualities that make Baton Passing broken, I don't have a real solution.
I'm only bringing this up just to see everybody thoughts on the matter.. and since everything else has been said already.
..but what would a metagame without talonflame be like?
When you really look at the viability rankings, you can see a ton of pokemon shredded, revenge killed, or flat out made unviable either with bird spam being one factor combind with others, or just flat out solely due to talonflame's pressence. For example, if talonflame left OU, we'd see a lot of pokemon such as breloom, conkeldurr, volcarona, gallade, lopunny, beedrill, scizor, keldeo, venasaur, and I'm going to stop there, become far more viable than they are now losing their #1 check/counter.
I find it worth discussion on talonflame's impact on the metagame.. and whether or not a metagame with it limiting every sweeper, and frail pokemon is balanced.. or if talonflame leaving would open a much more diverse metagame filled with several threats; old threats and current threats like lopunny and gallade revealing their true capabilities. I always was boggled why we blamed aegislash for a limited metagame.. when talonflame sent half the tier to BL at one point.
Breloom
Charizard Y - 252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard Y: 288-339 (96.9 - 114.1%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
Conkeldurr
Gallade
Keldeo
Beedrill
Serperior
Lopunny
Heracross
Latios - 252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 283-334 (94.6 - 111.7%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
Magnezone - Runs scarf almost specifically for talonflame now without greninja. Kinda minor actually but still.
Magneton - ^
Pinsir
Sableye
Venasaur
Hawlucha
Gengar - 252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 355-418 (137 - 161.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Scizor
Chansey
Alakazam
Diggersby - 252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Diggersby: 292-345 (93.5 - 110.5%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
Crawdaunt
Staraptor (outclassed by t-flame)
Venomoth
Volcarona
Victini - 252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Victini: 235-277 (68.9 - 81.2%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Weavile - 252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Weavile: 334-394 (118.8 - 140.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Scolipede
Medicham
Gardevoir - 252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Mega Gardevoir: 322-381 (116.2 - 137.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
and I'm pretty sure there's some more stuff down in UU that'd be OU if talonflame wasn't around but I'm not going to bother. I could throw in some random shit as well like bisharp but I'm specifically looking for pokemon that need team support or have a lower viability than they should be due to talonflames pressence.
Bare in mind I know alot of pokemon are checked by other things and have flaws that make them unviable other than talonflame.. but I just wanted to see discussion on a birdless metagame. Would it be better, or would it be worse?
I can't even begin to entertain the thought of a Talonflame-less Meta. No reason to get rid of it because its not broken, its not un-competitive or severely limiting to teambuilding.
That list of Pokemon of Pokemon you posted? All of them are already viable as hell in a Talonflame filled Meta.
I'm only bringing this up just to see everybody thoughts on the matter.. and since everything else has been said already.
..but what would a metagame without talonflame be like?
When you really look at the viability rankings, you can see a ton of pokemon shredded, revenge killed, or flat out made unviable either with bird spam being one factor combind with others, or just flat out solely due to talonflame's pressence. For example, if talonflame left OU, we'd see a lot of pokemon such as breloom, conkeldurr, volcarona, gallade, lopunny, beedrill, scizor, keldeo, venasaur, and I'm going to stop there, become far more viable than they are now losing their #1 check/counter.
I find it worth discussion on talonflame's impact on the metagame.. and whether or not a metagame with it limiting every sweeper, and frail pokemon is balanced.. or if talonflame leaving would open a much more diverse metagame filled with several threats; old threats and current threats like lopunny and gallade revealing their true capabilities. I always was boggled why we blamed aegislash for a limited metagame.. when talonflame sent half the tier to BL at one point.
Breloom
Charizard Y - 252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard Y: 288-339 (96.9 - 114.1%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
Conkeldurr
Gallade
Keldeo
Beedrill
Serperior
Lopunny
Heracross
Latios - 252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 283-334 (94.6 - 111.7%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
Magnezone - Runs scarf almost specifically for talonflame now without greninja. Kinda minor actually but still.
Magneton - ^
Pinsir
Sableye
Venasaur
Hawlucha
Gengar - 252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 355-418 (137 - 161.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Scizor
Chansey
Alakazam
Diggersby - 252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Diggersby: 292-345 (93.5 - 110.5%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
Crawdaunt
Staraptor (outclassed by t-flame)
Venomoth
Volcarona
Victini - 252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Victini: 235-277 (68.9 - 81.2%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Weavile - 252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Weavile: 334-394 (118.8 - 140.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Scolipede
Medicham
Gardevoir - 252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Mega Gardevoir: 322-381 (116.2 - 137.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
and I'm pretty sure there's some more stuff down in UU that'd be OU if talonflame wasn't around but I'm not going to bother. I could throw in some random shit as well like bisharp but I'm specifically looking for pokemon that need team support or have a lower viability than they should be due to talonflames pressence.
Bare in mind I know alot of pokemon are checked by other things and have flaws that make them unviable other than talonflame.. but I just wanted to see discussion on a birdless metagame. Would it be better, or would it be worse?
Banded Talonflame is like the old band Scizor all teams feared and had to build around bullet punch technician bullet punch. I would like to think that the proble in TalonFlame is his ability, thats what is broken to me, it allows you to have a priority 120 move. Thats his defining point.
Banded Talonflame is like the old band Scizor all teams feared and had to build around bullet punch technician bullet punch. I would like to think that the proble in TalonFlame is his ability, thats what is broken to me, it allows you to have a priority 120 move. Thats his defining point.
Talonflame isn't broken, but I disagree on that it doesn't limit teambuilding or allow us to see a developed metagame. A lot of defensive cores and sweepers require a talonflame answer.. there are indeed plenty of those like heatran (sword's dance+roost), tyranitar, rotom-w, defensive lando-t (will-o-wisp), etc however being forced to run some of these pokemon puts a strain on teambuilding.
There is never really a team that doesn't intentionally prepare for talonflame, that isn't talonflame weak. Talonflame can easily be supported with magic bounce, defog, whatever and pursue to shred offensive mons like nothing. Hell, if it wasn't for SR it'd maybe be S-rank for screwing the majority of pokemon in the tier. It litterally revenge kills the entire tier, and it's difficult to revenge kill with it's blistering fast speed tier combined with priority making it the perfect late game cleaner.
Almost every team analysis I've seen specifically includes a talonflame answer, and addresses it as such.
Talonflame is no more limiting to teambuilding than a lot of the things in the A+ ranks of viability. Saying you need a Talonflame answer is no different that saying I need a Charizard-X answer. Or saying I need a Clefable answer. Quite honestly I'm far more afraid of Mega Slowbro than I ever am of Talonflame.
Talonflame is not that hard to prepare for in this metagame naturally.
Talonflame is meta-defining but definitely not a overpowered mon. It has fairly reliable checks, lacks a coverage move to deal with them and relies on recoil moves to compensate it's relative low attack but like any A+ mon if you aren't prepared for it, it's likely gonna wreck you. Keldeo is more op if you ask me because it has easier time playing around it's checks. But neither Keldeo or Talon are on the same level when compared to the potential suspects; Mega Gross and Mega Eye in either power or utility and probably deserve a suspect test more than any other mon except maybe the STag and BP abusers.
FYI, Aegislash also had a speedy LO Swords Dance set that was capable of besting otherwise solid responses (to specially mixed sets) such as Mandibuzz, Zapdos, AV Conk, and Mega Venusaur; Amoonguss is just another one of those targets that falls to LO SD variants. It's usually too late to save one of your Pokemon once it reveals Swords Dance because even physical walls will take tons from its +2 attacks (including Lando-T).
FYI, Aegislash also had a speedy LO Swords Dance set that was capable of besting otherwise solid responses (to specially mixed sets) such as Mandibuzz, Zapdos, AV Conk, and Mega Venusaur; Amoonguss is just another one of those targets that falls to LO SD variants. It's usually too late to save one of your Pokemon once it reveals Swords Dance because even physical walls will take tons from its +2 attacks (including Lando-T).
I assume you are talking about the jolly head smash set? Just pointing out, by killing amoonguss with +2 head smash, it will bring itself down to 1 life orb hit in the process, killing mandibuzz will bring you down to 2 life orb hits, and by killing zapdos and mega venusaur you will kill yourself with the recoil damage+heat wave/hidden power fire damage. While they may not be traditional counters, they still beat it or restrict it to 1 or 2 more attacks.
I assume you are talking about the jolly head smash set? Just pointing out, by killing amoonguss with +2 head smash, it will bring itself down to 1 life orb hit in the process, killing mandibuzz will bring you down to 2 life orb hits, and by killing zapdos and mega venusaur you will kill yourself with the recoil damage+heat wave/hidden power fire damage. While they may not be traditional counters, they still beat it or restrict it to 1 or 2 more attacks.
Nitpicking at this point but Aegislash has the option of SDing twice on Mega Venu to tank the HP Fire in Shield Stance and smash it with Iron Head without worse for wear. Not to mention that any Mega Venusaur brought in on Aegislash is expected to tank Shadow Balls which would make it less physically defensive, aka more likely to get OHKOed by +2 LO Head Smash or even Iron Head (after SR).
Regardless, Jolly SD Aegislash functions as a fast (enough) stallbreaker that has the bulk to still put in work against offense, and works off the threat of special Aegislash basically forcing you to never bring in your physical Aegislash counter before your special Aegi counter, at which point Aegislash can pick something off; hell it can make up for its lesser bulk by deterring revenge killers with its much more powerful Shadow Sneaks. The fact that Aegislash puts so much pressure with each of its sets, and that they require different counters which makes punishing with Aegislash remarkably easy, is what makes Aegislash so powerful and centralising, and doesn't seem any less so to this day.
I'd like some discussion about Baton Pass to try to figure out what exactly makes it broken. If there's anybody who believes that the current sets of GeoPass, SmashPass, or ScoliPass are not broken, I'd really like it if you said something. Haven't heard anything from you guys (if you exist).
So what makes passing from Smeargle/Scolipede so borked as opposed to others? I believe it's a combination of being able to achieve "free" boosts and being able to boost more than one stat in a single turn. Smeargle achieves the former through its access to spore and dark void, which means that if it comes in for free against something slower than it and the opposing team lacks an extremely fast/prankster taunt user or a grass type (only if Smeargle uses spore) then Smeargle can use its sleep move and then use its next turn as a guaranteed free turn to set up. Scolipede lacks a sleep move, but instead has protect in order to guarantee +1 speed, which is certainly helpful.
The next important point is boosting more than one stat in a turn. This is huge because Smeargle takes exactly one turn to make a terrifying sweeper with Geomancy or Shell Smash and Scolipede also takes a single exposed turn to set up Iron Defense and get a speed boost. This means that they spend minimal time exposed to attempts to kill or to taunt. Of course they can choose to remain in and accumulate more stat boosts, but the single turn before they can Baton Pass for an appreciable advantage sets them apart.
When we look at other Baton Pass capable Pokemon, few have either of these qualities. Several have access to calm mind or work up, but these boosts are comparatively minimal and do not immediately allow for switching to a sweeper. A couple have stockpile or cosmic power, which is more threatening, especially if it is passed to something like DD XZard or another offensive booster. There are a couple with bulk up, but they are unfortunately rather frail. Ninjask can boost more than one stat in a single turn, but it's extremely frail.
For boosting speed, which is arguably the most important boost Smeargle or Scolipede provide, there are pure speed boosting moves (which leave the user wide open) and the two big ones people usually bring up as a response for why just banning Scolipede and Smeargle isn't enough: Quiver Dance and Shell Smash. The Pokemon with access to Baton Pass and Quiver Dance are Venomoth and Masquerain. Of the two, Venomoth is significantly more viable. What significantly hurts them is their lack of natural defenses, somewhat lackluster speed, inability to force free turns, and particular weakness to Talonflame. In addition, even Quiver Dance isn't enough often for sweeping, and requires two turns. Shell Smash is the exclusive property of Huntail and Gorebyss and is without a doubt a concern. What holds them back is their poor speed (which means they have to sacrifice bulk in order to make sure their Baton Pass goes first, and even then many scarfers still outspeed), and once again the lack of ability to find free turns. Their bulk isn't fantastic, which hurts their viability for brokenness somewhat.
Free turns is a little more difficult to quantify. Ninjask can do it in a similar manner as Scolipede, Shedinja can do it (but it's shedinja), and there are probably others I'm overlooking. Several have safe pokemon to come in freely on, but those are rather matchup dependent. Scolipede and Smeargle really do stick out to me for those qualities, but I was also working backwards from the premise that they are broken, so I appreciate you pointing out what's so wrong it makes Arceus cry.
Of course, even if these are the qualities that make Baton Passing broken, I don't have a real solution.
You're getting some of why baton passers are powerful, but not all of it. One thing worth noting is that every turn your BPer is out boosting, you're giving away a free turn. That free turn means a turn your opponent can attack, setup, or try to phase/taunt/status you. A good baton passer has some way to discourage that. For example, Smeargle discourages all of those things with spore, while Scolipede can only really discourage physical setup sweepers (like DDers and SDers) by "winning" the setup race (DDers cannot keep up with +2 defense and +1 speed while SDers are always 1 boost behind thanks to speed boost giving scolipede the initiative) and has to rely on mental herb to avoid taunt.
For a less familiar example, consider the following Gorebyss set:
Gorebyss @ White Herb
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
- Baton Pass
- Iron Defense
- Shell Smash
- Hydro Pump
Gorebyss, with her decent 55/105/75 bulk, will get the opportunity to setup on many defensive mons (especially with team support). At +2 SPA and speed, STAB hydro pump is actually really threatening and by itself is enough to stop most taunters, phasers, and opposing setup sweepers. Additionally, post SS she is actually pretty fast at 280 speed (I'm sure these EVs can and should be optimized), meaning that she can outspeed many physical swap ins and start boosting up with ID, allowing her to tank quite a few hits right there. Baton Pass allows her to escape anything she cannot kill off with hydro pump (for example, being at low hp vs a Bisharp). Ideally, you would pass off to either a mixed sweeper like mega diancie or a magic bouncer like Espeon or M-Absol.
Maybe capable is not the right word so much as viable.
Smeragle can survive some weaker attacks: 0 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Smeargle: 229-270 (72.9 - 85.9%)
As I said earlier, it can also set up on things it outspeeds too, but yet team support does make its just much more easier.
I don't believe there is just one benchmark or amount of stat boosts we can look at and auto decide its broken. No there may be other broken passers in future, but I think they are only currently broken ones. Its the fact they can boost several stats quite easily in front of most of the meta., then use those boosts to gain more boosts, then easily pass away.
Benchmark isn't really the right word for it. As you realize, some of these mons are complicated as frick to analyze and it's rather difficult to theorymon how strong/weak they are. I'm more looking for a framework that we can use when analyzing BP mons like the above Gorebyss so that we can get an idea of how good of a passer it is and whether or not it is broken. So far I've come up with a few properties:
1. How easily does it setup(what kind of support does it need? what mons can it setup from?)?
2. How fast does it setup(i.e. How many boosts per turn)?
3. What forces the BPer to pass early(i.e. If I send out roar heatran, will he be forced to BP out? What about my Lando-I? Bisharp?)
4. What can swap in and prevent it from passing(i.e. can I swap in my Thundy-I and taunt it? Can Talonflame come in and smack it?)
5. How passive is it while setting up (i.e. can I send in my zard-x and start DDing in it's face? If not, why?)
Actually, this is starting to feel more and more comprehensive. I'm making some real progress here, thanks everyone!
Truth be told, if Aegis is out of the question (even for an incredibly vague and arbitrary reason), I think the most optimal suspect test right now would be Mega Sableye.
I'll be brief since most points have been covered by now. I'll start with why not to suspect MGross yet. While M-Gross has been thrown up for suspect, the main reason it's so good is it's just the absolute best in a niche that the strongest teams in the meta very much desire. It's incredibly strong in its own right for sure, but the main part of it's strength is that is pushes already strong offense and balance teams closer to the breaking point. In a different kind of meta MGross would probably not be suggested for a suspect test, but there's a very valid argument that could be made that these teams are made too strong by having an exceedingly efficient Mega to boost them. I don't think its very objectively broken, so I think the meta needs to sit with MGross for a while longer to see if its presence is unhealthy or not. Additionally, the incredible strength of MSable stall is holding MGross' capability back somewhat, and suspecting Gross first my result in a misfire and a bunch of wasted time if MSable being banned pushes MGross over the limit.
Now for why Sable should be banned, I feel like out of any potential suspect right now, MSable is easily the most broken on its own. It takes stall's otherwise currently weak state and pushes it to be possibly the best team type on the merits of MSable existing. It can stop sweeps, status, has incredible typing, is a spinblocker, has massive bulk and can set-up sweep itself all by itself, and most importantly, all on one set. It's an entire swiss army knife for stall with no downsides other than the opportunity cost of using other (worse) megas. I've actually seen it indirectly increase the power of non MSable stall teams, since Sable is so strong nobody even bothers preparing for non-MSable stall since you're so tight on team space already in this very match-up oriented meta. This results in a team's wallbreaker or stallbreaker being completely worthless vs non sable stall teams because the mega of choice (from what I've seen, usually MScizor) does exceedingly well vs the stallbreakers Sable normally suffers from, resulting in most players playing 5v6 vs other stall teams because the cost of overpreparing for multiple stall teams with overall hinder your ability to play vs everything else. This would usually be fine, as variance in stall is to be expected, but Sable's sheer effectiveness nearly forces teams to run an answer specifically to MSable rather something that is strong vs stall as a whole, which isn't something that I find particularly healthy to the game.
Overall, if there is anything in the meta that fits the quality of being broken, it's easily MSable. Stall being at rock bottom right now is the only reason it's honestly still here, and rebalancing stall into the meta through other means than having a ludicrously broken mega to abuse is something that absolutely can be achieved by future suspect processes.
I can't believe this thread has descended into discussion of banning talonflame and kings shield (but unbanning aegis, wut kinds of suggestions are those?)
In all seriousness, I do not think hardly any of the mons in question are broken or even ban worthy. Megagross I can understand; I disagree, but I can follow the logic. But Sableye? Smeargle? Like are you kidding? Sableye is a threat no doubt, but not the God people are making him out to be. Checks and counters have been given since the first page, the fact that people are still convinced that it's broken or even CLOSE to ban worthy baffles me.
Gothitelle... I never in a million years thought this would be discussed. It just isn't strong enough to muscle past a lot of stuff. Any stall mon with anything that even vaguely resembles an offensive presence beats it. Now you're scarfed, but that's parta' the game- deal wid it.
I could understand geopass being banned, but that is SO uncommon, I don't think it really justifies discussion (I haven't read all the posts, it might have been dropped).
I could understand geopass being banned, but that is SO uncommon, I don't think it really justifies discussion (I haven't read all the posts, it might have been dropped).
Gothitelle... I never in a million years thought this would be discussed. It just isn't strong enough to muscle past a lot of stuff. Any stall mon with anything that even vaguely resembles an offensive presence beats it. Now you're scarfed, but that's parta' the game- deal wid it.
Know what isn't a competitive part of the game? Removing a key aspect of what makes competitive battling aka switching. I'll express that I do not agree with a Gothitelle suspect, but I do agree with a Shadow Tag suspect, for reasons I've explained before.
Hell confusion and Stat buffs are part of the game, should we allow swagger back to OU?
Coin flips may not be fun, but it's "parta' the game Deal wid it"!
How is "Sableye has counters" an argument? Every pokemon has checks and counters, and it doesn't matter in thecase of Sableye because the issue with it is not "it has no counters", but it's the effect that this mon has on the metagame and the constraints it imposes on teambuilding.
In particular, in order to build a team that has a good matchup against well built sableye stall teams, you need to either: a) Carry a stallbreaker that flat-out 6-0es, which isn't that easy as stall teams aim to cover most of these, OR b) have a SR setter that Sableye can't switch into, and which preferably has a good matchup against hazard removers commonly found on stall. Because if you won't be able to pressure the opposing stall team with hazards and smart switching, the battle will be more than hard to win without significant luck if your opponent doesn't make big mistakes.
The presence of Sableye means that you will have a very hard time getting hazards up if you're using one of the following mons as your hazard setter: Ferrothorn, defensive Lando T, Hippowdon, support Tyranitar, sash Mamoswine, sash Terrakion, Mew, Shuckle, Celebi, Cobalion, Skarmory, bulky Chomp, Rhyperior, Skarmory, Bronzong, and Chansey, and more depending on the movesets. It theory it can also come in on SR Heatran / Empoleon / Seismitoad etc if it guesses right between Rocks and Scald / Lava Plume but Sableye hates getting burned in general; stuff like Skill Swap Azelf can get up rocks on it but it isn't even that reliable. You can do something like anti leading Sableye (assuming it will be the lead..) with something that immediately scares it out and forces it to not mega evolve, go to your hazard mon, and get rocks up turn 2, ok, but once the opponent finds a turn to mega evolve Sableye and a turn to remove those rocks (and a competent player will most likely found ways to do so, especially in games lasting many turns like the ones Sableye is generally involved in), you will never get those rocks back up if your SR mon is shut down by it.
I took Sableye stall as an example but of course Sableye also fits well on balanced teams as they appreciate its ability to take pressure off the hazard remover by deterring the use of Stealth Rock and so run SR-weak mons more comfortably.
Isn't this limitation on hazard setters and control on the hazard game kind of a big deal? So who cares if this thing is countered by Diancie / Sylveon / Clefable or something? Even if you carry one of those (and you're kinda forced to do so), it will do the job anyway.
Regarding the problems associated with Baton Pass, one way of resolving these is to ban Baton Pass + boosting move on the same set. This would not only cover GeoPass, SmashPass and other forms of passing that are genuinely uncompetitive currently, but also keeps the legit uses of BP legal(such as using BP on Celebi to escape Bisharp/Ttar or using BP on Specs Sylveon to gain momentum).
Additionally, it also allows us to keep the other sets of Scolipede (the offensive LO set to be specific) legal, and does not have any repercussions on the tiers below OU, which is why I believe this is the best way forward.
Talonflame isn't broken, but I disagree on that it doesn't limit teambuilding or allow us to see a developed metagame. A lot of defensive cores and sweepers require a talonflame answer.. there are indeed plenty of those like heatran (sword's dance+roost), tyranitar, rotom-w, defensive lando-t (will-o-wisp), etc however being forced to run some of these pokemon puts a strain on teambuilding.
There is never really a team that doesn't intentionally prepare for talonflame, that isn't talonflame weak. Talonflame can easily be supported with magic bounce, defog, whatever and pursue to shred offensive mons like nothing. Hell, if it wasn't for SR it'd maybe be S-rank for screwing the majority of pokemon in the tier. It litterally revenge kills the entire tier, and it's difficult to revenge kill with it's blistering fast speed tier combined with priority making it the perfect late game cleaner.
Almost every team analysis I've seen specifically includes a talonflame answer, and addresses it as such.
Answers to Talonflame are not that difficult to come by though. I agree that Talonflame can be annoying to have to always have an answer for, but most Talonflame answers are capable of checking other Pokemon, such as Rotom-W, defensive Landorus-T, Heatran, Tyranitar, etc., which gives them enough merit to be put onto teams. While Talonflame is a bit centralizing, its centralization is not the worst thing in the world, considering that many answers to Talonflame are good Pokemon to begin with.
Regarding the problems associated with Baton Pass, one way of resolving these is to ban Baton Pass + boosting move on the same set. This would not only cover GeoPass, SmashPass and other forms of passing that are genuinely uncompetitive currently, but also keeps the legit uses of BP legal(such as using BP on Celebi to escape Bisharp/Ttar or using BP on Specs Sylveon to gain momentum).
Additionally, it also allows us to keep the other sets of Scolipede (the offensive LO set to be specific) legal, and does not have any repercussions on the tiers below OU, which is why I believe this is the best way forward.
Alternatively, we could just ban broken passers. The two main ones, Smeargle and Scolipede, are both BL and banning them would have zero repercussions on lower tiers. If other passers are found to be broken (ie Gorebyss, Mew, etc), then perhaps the effect would be larger, but it would still be better then yet another complex ban.
Also, nobody as of yet has been able to argue that baton pass is in any way uncompetitive. I claim that the reason why geopass is "uncompetitive" is simply that it's too strong and therefore broken. While brokenness is a form of uncompetitiveness, it's not one that should be fixed with complex bans but with mon bans.
*edit*
Furthermore, I claim that by understanding what makes a broken passer broken, we will be better prepared to deal with the next broken passer that GF decides to grace us with.
