np: ORAS OU Suspect Process, Round 2 - Spider Man [Metagrossite remains OU]

[Dark G]

This is how I see the metagame right now, a combination of these 3 megas: Mega Sableye Stall, Mega Metagross Hyper Offense and Mega Diancie (or Mega Garde if you want) Bulky Offense. Removing only one of these 3 pokemons means that another mon would take great benefit from it, Diancie in this case (but also Mega Gardevoir). Talking realistically, I think that the Metagross situation is very similar to Aegislash one: I know many people that regretted voting for his ban (I am one of those), since it marked the beginning of the bulky offense era (Avante Palestra by Destiny Device and Mega Heracross Rain are 2 good examples) with mons like Mega Heracross and Gardevoir finally being able to spam their powerfull stab moves, with pretty much nothing able to resist them. Now, I think that if Metagross gets banned, not only offense will lose a really good switch to Latios and Fairies in general, but the whole metagame would be more unbalanced than it is now. Thus, I'm going to say no ban.

Although I completely agree with these sentiments and believe M-Metagross is comparable to Aegi in the sense of keeping dangerous mons in check, I'm still heavily in favor of a ban of Metagrossite. The banning philosophy is set up with the short-term of the meta in mind, not the long-term. While I believe M-Metagross might just be doing more good than bad for the tier, it's still incredibly unhealthy and far too powerful for current ORAS OU. BAN

 

[WhiteQueen]

Ban Mega Metagross please because it destroys my poorly constructed team. Just kidding. Metagross is not centralizing at all. Mandibuzz counters it. It kills itself attacking Rocky Helmet Slowbro. Gets walled hard by Skarmory. Hammer Arm fails to OHKO Ferrothorn, while losing its health and oftentimes getting sucked dry with Leech Seed in the process. It can't even OHKO 0HP/0Def Victini with Earthquake, while the Victory 'mon kills it clean in one hit with V-Create. What else? It can't get past bulky Mega-Scizor. It gets killed by Scarf Tyranitar's Crunch if its HP is below 70%. Gyarados sets up on it. Landorus-T chases it off. Bisharp mind rapes it. This list could go on and on.

The point I'm trying to make is Mega Metagross is very easy to play around and wear down since it has no form of reliable recovery, and there are tons of Pokemon currently in OU that can hang with it. The four legged robot is nowhere near as destructive and disruptive as Greninja was. I'm gonna get reqs just so I can vote No Ban.

 

[astroshagger]

I would like to focus my post specifically at those who argue for the ban of Metagrossite solely due to its restrictive effect on offensive team building. Unfortunately, I've found the posts in this thread and the Post-Greninja Metagame discussion thread to be highly repetitive and devoid of any serious critical thinking.

The hyper-focus on offensive team building is indicative of a serious problem within certain players' mindsets - not in the actual pokemon that threaten it. Offensive teams are designed to apply consistent, threatening offensive pressure to the opposing team. Therefore, offensive teams are inherently weak to fast, powerhouse hitters such as Thundurus, Gengar, and M-Metagross. If a player utilizing an offensive team finds themselves scrambling for a proper "switch-in" to one of the aforementioned pokemon, that player has compromised the integrity of their team's structure by taking on a passive and defensive role. If you're switching in and out hoping to live, you're not playing offense correctly. Implying that a pokemon is busted solely because it limits team-building options for one specific playstyle is an absolutely ridiculous and selfish notion. Pokemon is not solely comprised of offense-only teams; it is a multifaceted game with multiple approaches and styles regarding team building and threat managment. When you take away the massive tunnel-vision that many people seem to have right now regarding the "toxicity" of M-Meta, you see that the other two primary team styles (defensive and balanced) have much less trouble successfully handling M-Metagross.

It's important to step back and see the game in its entirety when considering the ban of a pokemon. M-Metagross has a lot going for it on paper and in practice and poses a serious legitimate threat to offensive teams, but in actuality many pokemon present in defensive and balanced style teams are much better equipped with the tools to handle it.

NO BAN.

 

[xJownage]

super pro ban on this one, but tbh its not very broken itself. I honestly think Metagrossite is more broken in the light of its teammates.

Mega meta has so few checks and counters, especially against offensive teams, that building a team around it is ridiculously easy; slapping together a bunch of good mons with mega metagross results in a decent team to begin with. Proof is all the Mgross RMTs atm, all of the people having some success just haphazardly throwing together teams and getting good results because this thing is so easy to destroy teams with. Tough claws is a free Lo boost, blah blah blah tbh its not broken due to its power, its broken due to the bulk, versatility, and how easy it makes teambuilding. As an HO advocate, I can say that using megagross makes teambuilding almost too easy, just slap a few mons on to blanket check threats and get a little support and you have a very good ladder team to begin with. Refining such a team results in a highly strong archetype in general.

Mega Metagross is the reason balance is so easy to run right now. You have the flexibility to run something slightly more passive for actually checking most mega metagross sets, whereas more offensive teams have a much harder time and are often scrambling to get past it. The way that Metagross limits offensive teambuilding is just unfair right now. One of the most underrated cores atm is SD BP gliscor + agility Meta, because it literally sweeps everything without quagsire (and even then you can run grass knot to be that guy). Being able to BP +2 to it and watch it wreck everything without multiple priority users or unaware quagsire is just absurd. You can say this about a lot of mons, but not many that don't need such support, have so little opportunity cost, and are so efficient at sweeping. Metagross' amazing combination of typing, bulk, movepool, synergy, versatility, and power is absolutely outrageous and the thing needs to go soon.

For the record, saying that the metagame is matchup reliant and mmeta is the most broken thing, therefore it should go is a complete fallacy, since you are just pressing the state of the metagame itself and saying that its automatically broken. TBH this meta is the result of the power creep and thats about it.

Remember it singlehandedly makes an entire playstyle very difficult to run atm (Offense), and that such a mon needs to go. There were many mons like this in the past, and all of them had to go for various reasons.

This suspect test is reminiscent of Aegislash, tbh, because offensive teams may have to dedicate an entire slot or more just to beat metagross.

 

[Undead32]

I don't plan on participating in the voting process because I don't have the time and I don't really play singles anymore anyway, but can I just point something out real quick?

I'm not sure if someone's already said this, but Mega Metagross (and a fair amount of the OU metagame) gets easily checked by this guy:

Cofagrigus is easily a one of the major anti-meta Pokemon, and I honestly wish people used it more often, and it feels like it's going to waste. Look at this calculation for example:

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 118-139 (36.8 - 43.4%) -- 98.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Not only can Cofagrigus take away Megagross's ability on contact, but can also burn it or any switch in, and even threatens to 2HKO it with no special attack investment. Get a good prediction (like switching Cofa in on a Bullet Punch) and Megagross either has to switch out and lose momentum or risk getting Will-O-Wisp'd.

This doesn't even apply to only Mega Metagross, either. Other Pokemon that could have a hard time with Cofagrigus include:

• Scizor
• Azumarill
• Gliscor (if Gliscor get's mummied after it's been out for a while, it will lose a huge chunk of HP because, even though it has Toxic Heal, the toxic damage will stack up and once it loses it it will get hurt a lot, if not flat-out die.)
  
• Ferrothorn
• Megazard X
• Bisharp
• Lopunny (Lopunny gets badly shut down by Cofagrigus once it loses Scrappy)
• Salamence
• Talonflame
• Potentially Aegislash (EDIT: Ignore this, I forgot that Stance Change doesn't get effected by Mummy)
• Anything with Huge/Pure Power

The list can go on if you include things in lower tiers. I'm not saying that Cofagrigus is a reason you shouldn't ban Mega Metagross, what I'm saying is that if more people used Cofagrigus it could potentially lead to a healthier meta game, considering Pokemon like Mega Metagross, Scizor, etc. will have more common checks, and might promote using Pokemon found in lower tiers more often.

 

[Ultratog]

but if we lose Mega Metagross, we lose offense's best check to fairy-types.

This logic is flawed. If you ban the best of anything you lose the best. But best does not necessarily mean only. When Kangaskanite was banned, the meta lost it's "best" physical wallbreaker. And Metagross itself would still be legal and still be a great pokemon in OU. It's a versatile 600 bst tank or wallbreaker. A Life Orb would function fine on it and allow it to still do it's job, although at 100 less bst.

 

[franklinfrank]

While Mega Metagross is certainly a very good mon in the metagame, I don't really think it deserves a ban. While it lacks real counters, there are a bunch of mons that check it pretty nicely (mew, jirachi, scizor, mandibuzz, hippo and slowbro for non gk, gliscor for non ice punch, etc.) and it also struggles to break past common defensive cores (rotom+ferro+lando and similar combinations). There are also common offensive checks (bisharp, scarftar, scarf lando) that can also help deal with it for more offensive teams, albeit less reliably. Overall, I think Mega Metagross is really good, just not broken, although its pretty close.

 

[CrashinBoomBang]

rofl @ all the people thinking sableye is ban worthy (?) or broken (??????????) when it's not even a top 10 mega what the fuck happened here??

will post my exact thoughts on metagross after I inevitably get the easiest reqs of my life (for the record, after discussing this with my good friend McMeghan, I believe that it has to get the fuck out of here if we want to reach anything in this metagame) but good lord if you have problems with sableye in any way (???????????????????????????????????????????) then maybe you should re-evaluate the way you make Pokemon teams what the actual hell is going on

 

[SaberSeven]

I don't plan on participating in the voting process because I don't have the time and I don't really play singles anymore anyway, but can I just point something out real quick?

I'm not sure if someone's already said this, but Mega Metagross (and a fair amount of the OU metagame) gets easily checked by this guy:

Cofagrigus is easily a one of the major anti-meta Pokemon, and I honestly wish people used it more often, and it feels like it's going to waste. Look at this calculation for example:

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 118-139 (36.8 - 43.4%) -- 98.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Not only can Cofagrigus take away Megagross's ability on contact, but can also burn it or any switch in, and even threatens to 2HKO it with no special attack investment. Get a good prediction (like switching Cofa in on a Bullet Punch) and Megagross either has to switch out and lose momentum or risk getting Will-O-Wisp'd.

This doesn't even apply to only Mega Metagross, either. Other Pokemon that could have a hard time with Cofagrigus include:

• Scizor
• Azumarill
• Gliscor (if Gliscor get's mummied after it's been out for a while, it will lose a huge chunk of HP because, even though it has Toxic Heal, the toxic damage will stack up and once it loses it it will get hurt a lot, if not flat-out die.)
  
• Ferrothorn
• Megazard X
• Bisharp
• Lopunny (Lopunny gets badly shut down by Cofagrigus once it loses Scrappy)
• Salamence
• Talonflame
• Potentially Aegislash (EDIT: Ignore this, I forgot that Stance Change doesn't get effected by Mummy)
• Anything with Huge/Pure Power

The list can go on if you include things in lower tiers. I'm not saying that Cofagrigus is a reason you should ban Mega Metagross, what I'm saying is that if more people used Cofagrigus it could potentially lead to a healthier meta game, considering Pokemon like Mega Metagross, Scizor, etc. will have more common checks, and might promote using Pokemon found in lower tiers more often.

Problem with Cofagrigus is its lack of reliable recovery and rather shallow movepool. The Knock Off weakness it possesses doesn't help it either (which is commonly carried by Scizor, Azumarill, and (ESPECIALLY) Bisharp). And fill me in on how Mega Zard X & Talonflame are beat by Cofagrigus please.

Edit: Getting on topic now to avoid further confusion. I think I failed to state that Mega Metagross's best checks & counters that are viable are Slowking (Grass Knot 4HKOs 4 SpA Tough Claws Mega Metagross Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 212+ SpD Slowking: 112-132 (28.4 - 33.5%) -- 95.1% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery and you don't see that thing running ThunderPunch), Physically Defensive Skarmory, and POSSIBLY Mega Sableye if it can get the Will-o-Wisp off.

 

[benallaire]

These are just some scatered ideas and thoughts and will be in a list format since im to lazy to make a well worded paragraph
Augments for ban
1.Mega metagross's staats are just too good his deffense and spdef are higher than some of the dedicated walls of the tier, simular to mega mence this makes him a exstremery hard to kill in many cases and with his typing it gets even harder.
2.he has a amazing speed stat out speeding and tying with most of ou's most prevalent threats
3.he has a huge offensive move pool that can cover most typing as well as moves like grass knot witch eliminate treats such as slowbro and other bulky waters
4.many of his "counters" cant kill him and you must rely on checks to come in off a sack
5.landorus t is not a check with metagross's ability to run rock polish or agility
6. tough claws boosted moves have the ability to 2 hit ko many mons on switch even resisted
7.metagris wrecks balence and hyper offense depending on the set used
Conclusion
In conclusion i will most likely vote to ban meta, in general i just think the meta will be healthier without him but i dont have a super strong opinion and after i read all the posts they may change my mind

 

[bsu]

as almost no offensive pokemon can safely switch in and beat it, so many teams either need a lot of bulk (what is leaning towards balance) or a lot of speed to keep Metagross in control.

idk if anyone else said anything about this already but offense isn't supposed to really have switch-ins for anything so that argument (for offensive teams at least) is irrelevant.

also im heavily leaning on no ban but i'll contribute more later

 

[Undead32]

Problem with Cofagrigus is its lack of reliable recovery and rather shallow movepool. The Knock Off weakness it possesses doesn't help it either (which is commonly carried by Scizor, Azumarill, and (ESPECIALLY) Bisharp). And fill me in on how Mega Zard X & Talonflame are beat by Cofagrigus please.

I didn't say they would get beat by Cofagrigus, I said they could have issues with it. Mega Zard X would lose Tough Claws, and effectively some damage output, and Talonflame would lose Gale Wings, which means you could potentially switch in a fast/scarfed Pokemon with Stone Edge/Rock Slide (notably Landorus Therian) and either scare it out, or OHKO it. It's mono-ghost type does bring up some issues, but it's ability and colossal 145 base defense give it redeeming factors, and at the very least a notable niche in OU.

Also yeah, now that I think about it Bisharp would be a huge problem for Cofagrigus, my bad

Edit: To reiterate on the topic of my main post, a fair amount of checks to Pokmeon like Mega Metagross (such as Cofagrigus and, as you said, Slowking) lie in lower tiers, but because a fair amount of people have a bias against Pokemon in lower tiers (as I noticed in the two weeks the Greninja suspect test was going on: people were heavily agaisnt the notion of using Porygon2 and Empoleon almost solely because they were in UU), a lot of the time they go shamefully unnoticed.

A thing with team building, from what I've noticed, is that people don't tend to think outside of the box, or want to change the system they already have: Sometimes you have to adapt in order to succeed, because sticking to old tactics in the face of new challenges doesn't work out.

 

[Sun King]

Okay who wants to guess the trend I'm starting to see here?

If you guessed bulky Steel-type with powerful offensive capabilities then you get a cookie. I'll get into my personal belief on Mega-Metagross in a bit, but I just want to first talk about the above trend. Now--it could be mere coincidence--but my gut tells me that what these three have in common is actually very relevant to this suspect test. If nothing else, it's clearing things up for me as to how the Smogon community reacts to certain threats in the metagame.

If you have a threat that has:

• A.) An excellent defensive typing
• B.) Significant bulk
• C.) Significant power

…the likelihood of that threat being perceived negatively is seemingly very high. It's no secret that Mega-Metagross meets all three of those bullet points, so I would not be surprised if it got the boot to the Uber tier. In addition, it has a very nice speed tier, which neither of Aegislash nor Mawile had (although MegaMaw got Sucker Punch). With all that in mind, you could make a very convincing argument as to Mega-Metagross's brokenness. You could argue that the threats that outspeed Mega-Metagross aren't strong enough to punch through its defenses. Coupled with the move pool to cripple defensive cores, I wouldn't be crestfallen if Metagrossite got banned.

However…

People don't vote ban because of cold, hard facts. People vote ban because they want to play in a metagame in which "Threat X" does not exist. This was evidenced by the Aegislash ban, where the community could not agree on how broken it was. In the end, people voted ban because they wanted a different metagame. As has been stated before, the metagame is relatively balanced. If you were to put me on the spot right now, I would say do not ban because I would prefer to play in a balanced metagame. I don't want to shake things up, and banning Mega Metagross would definitely shake the tier up. I can understand the counterargument, "we don't keep broken things to check other broken things", but that's not really what I'm saying. I'm saying that I enjoy the metagame as it is, and I don't want to change anything. I know Jukain said that the metagame was chaotic, but I'm not really sure what that's all about. The metagame is essentially balanced around Mega-Metagross, Mega-Diancie, Mega-Sableye, and occasionally Mega-Altaria.

That brings up the centralization argument. People often seem to confuse centralization with "bad". I'm actually okay with centralization because it instills a sense of order in what would otherwise be--well--chaotic. In the "Post-Greninja Ban" thread, TFL brought up this argument in regards to Aegislash. Iirc, the crux of the post was, "I wouldn't mind Aegislash in the tier because I like having to prepare for fewer threats". That's a point that I support. From a team-building perspective, centralization is both good AND bad because you are limited in what you can use, but you also are limited in what you need to prepare for. I can understand if this last paragraph may lose a few of you, as it is pretty abstract and heavily opinionated.

All in all, I'm going to see how the suspect ladder turns out. If I can get my college apps done in time to make reqs, I'll have a formal vote and say in the matter. As things stand now, however, I would say don't ban Mega-Metagross because I like the tier as it is.

 

[SaberSeven]

I didn't say they would get beat by Cofagrigus, I said they could have issues with it. Mega Zard X would lose Tough Claws, and effectively some damage output, and Talonflame would lose Gale Wings, which means you could potentially switch in a fast/scarfed Pokemon with Stone Edge/Rock Slide (notably Landorus Therian) and either scare it out, or OHKO it. It's mono-ghost type does bring up some issues, but it's ability and colossal 145 base defense give it redeeming factors, and at the very least a notable niche in OU.

Cofagrigus's niche in OU is that of a Trick Room Sweeper not a physical wall. Also if Cofagrigus is facing the bulky DD variant of Mega Charizard X, Cofagrigus is pretty much good as set up fodder. Same goes for either Bulk Up for Swords Dance Talonflame. Choice Banded Brave Bird is still a 3HKO on Cofagrigus and with that much speed, Talonflame probably wouldn't mind losing Gale Wings on certain stuff (not under Trick Room or against scarfers, but in most situations, base 126 speed gets you pretty far).

EDIT:

Edit: To reiterate on the topic of my main post, a fair amount of checks to Pokmeon like Mega Metagross (such as Cofagrigus and, as you said, Slowking) lie in lower tiers, but because a fair amount of people have a bias against Pokemon in lower tiers (as I noticed in the two weeks the Greninja suspect test was going on: people were heavily agaisnt the notion of using Porygon2 and Empoleon almost solely because they were in UU), a lot of the time they go shamefully unnoticed.

A thing with team building, from what I've noticed, is that people don't tend to think outside of the box, or want to change the system they already have: Sometimes you have to adapt in order to succeed, because sticking to old tactics in the face of new challenges doesn't work out.

In some cases, bringing things that aren't completely viable in the OU metagame to check or counter massive threats in the meta leads to a case of overcentralization. That was the case with Porygon2 and Empoleon in some cases. Slowking is useful in OU in beating Keldeo and a few other things in OU, but it can only go so far. Overcentralization could be a solid argument to ban Mega Metagross.

 

[Undead32]

Cofagrigus's niche in OU is that of a Trick Room Sweeper not a physical wall. Also if Cofagrigus is facing the bulky DD variant of Mega Charizard X, Cofagrigus is pretty much good as set up fodder. Same goes for either Bulk Up for Swords Dance Talonflame. Choice Banded Brave Bird is still a 3HKO on Cofagrigus and with that much speed, Talonflame probably wouldn't mind losing Gale Wings on certain stuff (not under Trick Room or against scarfers, but in most situations, base 126 speed gets you pretty far).

Well, a thing with Bulk Up/Swords Dance Talonflame is that if you were to switch in Scarf Terrakion/Landorus-T/Jolteon while they were setting up while they had Mummy, it wouldn't really matter because without Gale Wings, it's gonna get outsped by either of them, especially considering nobody that I know of runs Talonflame with speed investment. You could say the same thing with a d-dance Zard X with just Terrakion.

Also, would you want to continue this conversation in a personal thread?

 

[TM13IceBeam]

so uh. meta is gay as fuck, this suspect test is definitely well warranted, but i haven't really decided which camp should my vote be for (leaning towards ban atm because speed tier + retarded power level + retarded bulk)

most of the anti-ban arguments iirc center around metagross's lack of speed when he first evolves but i'm not sure how that argument really pans out considering metagross pretty much forces out every fairy type in the tier: that free switch is basically a free mega. bullet punch ensures the free mega too. 2 shotting the entire tier isn't really something that i can claim as "healthy", but eh we shall see.

 

[mikereyes]

Mega-Metagross is strong and it does require some extra thought in how to counter it. Frankly, I'm tired of hearing "It 2HKO's Lando-T, one of the most popular mons". Well perhaps if some people put more thought into their defensive mons instead of picking the most popular ones they may notice that this thing is not unstoppable. For example, my current solid check is 4th Gen Physically Defensive Celebi. With a Bold nature, and near full investment, Celebi is never 2HKO'd unless Meteor Mash procs the attack.

Celebi@Lefties
Giga Drain
Earth Power
Thunder Wave
Recover

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 220+ Def Celebi: 157-186 (38.8 - 46%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 220+ Def Celebi: 176-208 (43.5 - 51.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Switch in, Thunder Wave, and Recover. Earth Power when you get the chance. Yes, this doesn't exactly work if Meteor Mash procs but it is incredibly solid as a check.

 

[Ze Diglett]

As much as I love MegaGross, I'll agree it's more than a bit extreme for the current OU metagame. It suffers from the "MegaMence syndrome," albeit to a lesser extent, because its moveset is so versatile that hard counters to it are few and far between, and those that do exist tend to be gimmicky shit like Cofagrigus that otherwise simply don't belong in a balanced OU meta. I can speak from experience when I say that it's stupidly easy to set up with this beast and rip entire teams to shreds, especially with cleric support to clear paralysis and the like. Shame, really. I was seriously getting hype about Metagross finally getting a second chance in OU.
R.I.P. Metagross. May he live on in UU.

 

[MANNAT]

I may post some more thoughts later in the discussion, but here is the basic premise of my viewpoint on Megagross. Metagross is a prolific S-rank offensive threat, but he is not broken and he is about as overcentralyzing as any other mon in S-rank of the OU viability rankings. Many Top-metagame Pokemon can check him, and his typing isn't the best, especially with the steel nerf. Ways that common Pokemon can check it are; scarfed Landorus-T, Offensive Air Balloon Heatran if no Hammer arm, Rotom-W is a shaky check that can win with physically defensive sets if hax doesn't happen for either side, Ferrothorn if Metagross isn't running hammer arm, LO Bisharp can one shot, Banded Talonflame can one shot with flare Blitz, Garchomp can kill if no ice punch, LO Gengar is a check that can kill b4 mega and push speed tie, Tyranitar can kill if no hammer arm, scarf/sand rush excadrill can kill, Thundurus can cripple with twave, slowbro can take basically any set that isn't packing grass knot, Regular Landorus one shots it if it can survive a hit, Megados can one shot reguular Metagross at neutral, and both Charizards roasts it as well as many others. The set that Metagross chooses decides what takes him down. If he chooses to run agiligross (rock polish is better for imprision shenanigans) to check faster threats, then it loses out to mons that it didn't before because it loses coverage as a result of clearing the moveslots of all The other mons.

Let me state the usage stats of all the Pokemon that I listed as possible checks/counters to mega metagross.

usage

| 1 | Landorus-Therian | 31.581% |
| 2 | Heatran | 22.858% |
| 3 | Rotom-Wash | 20.049% |
| 6 | Ferrothorn | 17.763% |
| 7 | Bisharp | 17.191% |
| 8 | Talonflame | 15.430% |
| 14 | Slowbro | 10.789% |
| 15 | Garchomp | 10.622% |
| 16 | Gengar | 10.561% |
| 17 | Tyranitar | 10.494% |
| 18 | Excadrill | 9.975% |
| 19 | Thundurus | 9.639% |
| 21 | Charizard | 8.872% |
| 23 | Landorus | 7.756% |

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

No ban.

We know it has really good stats. We know it has coverage moves for almost everything. We know it's bulky. So stop making that your sole arguments.

Mega Metagross has tons of soft checks. Yeah, if Slowbro tries to come in it risks a 2HKO from Grass Knot. Mega Sableye tries to come in it risks a 2HKO from Meteor Mash. Jirachi risks EQ. Rotom-W might take Zen Headbutt. Mega Man might take Zen Headbutt or EQ. Hippowdon might take a Grass Knot. Gliscor might take an Ice Punch. Tankchomp might take an Ice Punch.

But what do all these pokemon have in common? Besides the one move they fear, they all are, at most, 3HKOed by the other 3/4 of Mega Metagross' moves. And these are a diverse set of pokemon (we've got Water/Psychic, Ghost/Dark, Steel/Psychic, Water/Electric, Electric, Ground, Ground/Flying, Dragon/Ground, and I'm not implying these are the only ones) and many have reliable recovery; it's easy to, even unintentionally, stack them. Which leads to the next point:

Mega Metagross is prediction-heavy. I know prediction is an "unacceptable" argument but an exception should be made here. Let's say Mega Metagross is up against a team that has three soft-checks to Mega Metagross (which isn't unreasonable or such a strain on teambuilding, as seen above,) and it's up against Clefable. By having these three checks, is the opponent really going to lose a pokemon here? They probably won't, actually. With Greninja, its speed and specificity of its checks, this wasn't a problem. It was hard to stack checks. This isn't the case with Metagross; yeah maybe they'll use Grass Knot predicting I bring in Slowbro, but I can just as easily bring in Jirachi or Tankchomp. The odds are against the Metagross user.

Mega Metagross' moveset is also stricter than Greninja's was. Greninja could run what fucking ever cause everything was STAB. You can't run Ice Punch and Grass Knot at the same time, or else steels walls you. Meaning bulky water+Gliscor/Garchomp/LandoT is enough to handle pretty much every set.

Another problem with its moves is that Hammer Arm lowers its speed. It's something that's at the very least worth mentioning. And while you can beat Ferro 1v1 with it, you take a lot of damage in the process. Iron Barbs+Leech Seed+Leech Seed (Protect) and then another Iron Barbs at minimum, assuming something doesn't switch in to the Hammer Arm and force your slow -2 ass out (and take health through Seed).

Luxury moves only make this problem worse. Agility, Bullet Punch and Pursuit being the main moves you'd like to run on it but often can't. Don't say "Agiligross is a nightmare for offensive teams!" when dropping Grass Knot means a lot of bulky waters now check it.

We don't ban things for having no counters. See this post.

But it has counters anyway. Bulky Mega Scizor, very healthy PhD Mew, Alomomola, and Brongzong can all wall it. Counter Skarmory can, uh, counter it. Oh and Arcanine. So Stall teams have answers.

It can't simultaneously check the things you want it to check and be hard to revenge kill.

252 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 252-296 (83.7 - 98.3%)

Wow, it avoids an OHKO from even Lando-T! You'd need at least 16.3% damage for a guaranteed KO, or 10% if you count Stealth Rock. Where or where could you find that?

0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Metagross: 45-54 (14.9 - 17.9%)

Oh.

Another example: Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice: (34.5 - 40.8%). After Garde's Hyper Voice, now you can't survive Thundurus' Thunderbolt (57.1 - 67.4%).

Latios' Draco Meteor does 41.8 - 49.5%. That's also a pretty big chunk of damage, against something with no form of recovery. Mega Lopunny can now revenge you relatively safely (51.1 - 60.7%). Special Mega Altaria does 28.2 - 33.5% with HVoice, which puts it in range of Bisharp's Sucker Punch (72.4 - 86.3%).

In actual conditions, Mega Metagross can't tank hits forever. Especially when you consider that it starts with base 70 speed; it's probably going to take a hit on its MEvo turn. Of course, there are revenge killers that need little to no prior damage to revenge kill, some examples being Scarf Heatran, Mega Manectric, Talonflame, Victini (this takes a dump on all sets that don't run EQ btw), Mega Charizard X, Bisharp (w/ Dread Plate), and Mega Houndoom maybe we should ban Stealth Rock so fire types become more viable. Excadrill under sand and Mega Swampert, Kingdra and Omastar under Rain are also able to outspeed and OHKO.

Hax goes both ways js cause like every move it has is 90% acc, don't cry about 20% chance for boost

So tl;dr- REALLY good mon, I agree, but it's not as unstoppable as people are making it out to be.
-Easy to stack checks against it. Checks to it are available throughout the meta, none are specific
-It has counters that one can choose to use, some of them not being specialized counters
-There are things that RK it from full, and it can be 2HKOed by a large number of combinations

Also let it be known that Float Stone Slowbro counters Mega Metagross (◕‿◕✿) w/o thunder punch

 

[Master B8s]

i see many people against the banning of metagrossite saying X pokemon counters metagross IF it isnt running ( insert coverage move here ).
This is the same problem we had with greninja, some things counter it IF it isnt running one of its many viable coverage moves.

The difference is greninja wasn't heavy on prediction because it outsped pretty much the whole unboosted meta game, meaning it would bop the switch in next turn with the right move. Metagross isn't as blistering fast, so (I know prediction is a horrible argument to use) but a bad prediction can put metagross in a bad situation because there are common mons that can outspeed metagross that couldn't outspeed greninja, a few being mega houndoom, starmie, raikou, tornadus-T, and M-Pidgeot. All being able to cripple, or deal a huge chunk of damage. Yes it is bulky, but it can't take hits for days because of its lack of recovery, and most of those mentions mons only need a bit of prior damage to net their KOs.

 

[XLR87T3]

Metagross jumped from UU to OU, all because of its Mega evolution. That is not unusual, but it's a indicator of how much Metegrossite effects Metagross competitively. Despite being very hard to counter, this isn't very different from Terrakion, who has zero counters that aren't NU or banned. The difference is, the few Pokemon that reliably counter MegaGross happen to be the most common Pokemon in the OU tier-Mew and (Mega) Scizor. And HP Fire can't even 2HKO Mega Scizor with a little SpDef investment.

0 SpA Mega Metagross Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 176+ SpD Mega Scizor: 140-168 (40.8 - 48.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Not to mention the fact that plenty of Pokemon can act as a check. Like Talonflame, Scarf Landorus-T, almost any thing faster with a super-effective move (which includes a huge number of Scarfers). I just don't see how MegaGross is overcentralizing. It's very powerful, yes, but again it has many reliable checks. Talonflame revenge kills it and that is a huge weakness in the fast paced metagame. All in all, I vote don't ban, because MegaGross can be easily worked around by very common Pokemon.

 

[Jaguar360]

Mega-Metagross is strong and it does require some extra thought in how to counter it. Frankly, I'm tired of hearing "It 2HKO's Lando-T, one of the most popular mons". Well perhaps if some people put more thought into their defensive mons instead of picking the most popular ones they may notice that this thing is not unstoppable. For example, my current solid check is 4th Gen Physically Defensive Celebi. With a Bold nature, and near full investment, Celebi is never 2HKO'd unless Meteor Mash procs the attack.

Celebi@Lefties
Giga Drain
Earth Power
Thunder Wave
Recover

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 220+ Def Celebi: 157-186 (38.8 - 46%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 220+ Def Celebi: 176-208 (43.5 - 51.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Switch in, Thunder Wave, and Recover. Earth Power when you get the chance. Yes, this doesn't exactly work if Meteor Mash procs but it is incredibly solid as a check.

Well when you factor in Stealth Rock, Celebi's not really a counter. Great check though. Mew on the other hand:
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 148+ Def Mew: 168-198 (41.5 - 49%) -- 16.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
That's pretty impressive. That's the standard stallbreaker set except with enough speed to just outpace Jolly Bisharp and Breloom. So we have these for full counters on the viability rankings:

• Physically Defensive Mew
• Bulky Scizor
• Gourgeist-XL
• Doublade (252 Atk Mega Metagross Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 176+ Def Eviolite Doublade: 90-108 (27.9 - 33.5%) -- 31.9% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock)
• Arcanine (-1 252 Atk Mega Metagross Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 132-156 (34.4 - 40.7%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery; must be wary of Clear Body pre-Mega)
• Skamory (if it has at least 63.5% of its health left, it can live to Counter two Hammer Arms and beat Mega Meta)
• Bronzong
• Mega Aggron
• Cofagrigus
• CM Rest Manaphy
• Tangrowth

Hard checks:

• Cresselia (Loses to Sub PuP unless it runs the sub-optimal Shadow Ball)
• Alomomola (See Cresselia, but without the Shadow Ball part)
• Defensive RestTalk Gyarados (Loses to the uncommon and sub-optimal Thunder Punch; otherwise a full counter)
• Slowking (See Gyarados)
  
• Celebi
• Jirachi

Soft defensive checks:

• Mandibuzz
• Lando-T
• Mega Sableye
• Hippowdon
  
• (Mega) Slowbro
• Suicune
• Quagsire

Offensive checks:

• Scarf Heatran (can switch into STABs as well as Ice Punch and Grass Knot, making it semi-reliable even though HA and EQ bop it)
• Mega Manectric (fears EQ)
• Scarf Lando-T (fears Ice Punch of course and MM does a lot)
• Scarf Victini (Loses to EQ, but resists everything else Mega Meta has aside from Pursuit)
• Scarf Jirachi
• Bisharp (shaky)
• Probably some others

So Mega Metagross does have counters after all, though not all of them are common. Checks are pretty common right now in OU at least. My stance on a ban is still wavering, but I'm leaning towards no ban right now. I'll most more on Mega Meta itself after I play some more because I don't feel that I can make a good argument right now.

I didn't even intend for this to be a list of counters/checks post at first, but it surely worked out that way lol.

 

[FrocoTerra]

Reflect Type Starmie is fine, unless Metagross carries Earthquake. Also, unless you get a burn with Scald it's not going to do too much anymore as it's lost its STAB.

Anyway, my overall thoughts on the Metagross situation:

It's too damn strong, powerful and bulky all at once.

Let's see how it goes against all S and A+ Rank Pokemon. If it is outsped or doesn't net an OHKO I'll put the return damage as well.

S Rank

Keldeo
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Zen Headbutt vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 410-486 (126.9 - 150.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Mega Metagross
It does 70ish percent with Earthquake, although because it goes both ways it's kind of a weird calc
252 Atk Mega Metagross Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 168-198 (55.8 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Mega Sableye
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 132-156 (43.4 - 51.3%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO
4 SpA Mega Sableye Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Metagross: 140-168 (46.5 - 55.8%) -- 70.7% chance to 2HKO

A+ Rank
Mega Altaria
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria: 392-464 (127.6 - 151.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
If Altaria sets up a Dragon Dance on the switch and therefore outspeeds:
+1 192+ Atk Mega Altaria Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 214-254 (71 - 84.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Azumarill
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 88 HP / 4 Def Azumarill: 255-301 (70.2 - 82.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 168-198 (55.8 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
At most Waterfall+Aqua Jet does 70%
After a belly drum Aqua Jet does 80%

Bisharp
This is pretty big news but Hammer Arm KOs Bisharp
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Hammer Arm vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 632-744 (232.3 - 273.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 198-234 (65.7 - 77.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Mega Charizard-X
252 Atk Mega Metagross Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard X: 216-256 (72.7 - 86.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 404-476 (134.2 - 158.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Clefable
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 372-440 (94.4 - 111.6%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

Mega Diancie
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Diancie: 600-708 (248.9 - 293.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Diancie Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4- SpD Mega Metagross: 168-198 (55.8 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Doesn't matter if it loses the speed tie or even if it's negative SpDef.

Gengar
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Zen Headbutt vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 570-672 (220 - 259.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Metagross: 312-369 (103.6 - 122.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Comes down to a speed tie.

Gliscor
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Gliscor: 340-404 (96 - 114.1%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
0 Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 146-174 (48.5 - 57.8%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO

Mega Gyarados
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Hammer Arm vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Gyarados: 292-344 (88.2 - 103.9%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 230-272 (76.4 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Won't outspeed after one Hammer Arm.

Heatran
252 Atk Mega Metagross Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 452-532 (117.4 - 138.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Hammer Arm vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 300-354 (77.9 - 91.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Heatran Lava Plume vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Metagross: 200-236 (66.4 - 78.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Accounted for the fact that not all run EQ, it still outspeeds after one Hammer Arm.

Landorus
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus: 516-608 (161.7 - 190.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Landorus-T
-1 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 248-292 (64.9 - 76.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 210-248 (69.7 - 82.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

This is the Defensive variant, which is obviously outsped.

-1 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Landorus-T: 340-400 (106.5 - 125.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 252-296 (83.7 - 98.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

The scarfed variant can't KO at full health and is OHKOed back.

Mega Lopunny
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Zen Headbutt vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Lopunny: 392-464 (144.6 - 171.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Mega Lopunny Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 24-29 (7.9 - 9.6%) -- possibly the worst move ever
252 Atk Mega Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 154-183 (51.1 - 60.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Even after fake out, this HJK can't KO.

Latios
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 256-303 (85.6 - 101.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 284-336 (94.9 - 112.3%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Metagross: 159-187 (52.8 - 62.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

No other move that Latios carries does much damage, and it can't run max speed with HP Fire.

Mega Slowbro
0 SpA Tough Claws Mega Metagross Grass Knot (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Slowbro: 240-284 (60.9 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 SpA Mega Slowbro Scald vs. 0 HP / 4- SpD Mega Metagross: 111-132 (36.8 - 43.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Granted, you do have the Burn chance so you might not want to stay in.

Talonflame
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 332-392 (110.2 - 130.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Banded Talonflame outspeeds and OHKOs, on the switch MegaGross does 98 percent at max.

All other Talonflame sets take the same or less damage, and can 2HKO with Flare Blitz... but the recoil will kill them in the process.

Thundurus
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus: 316-372 (105.6 - 124.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4- SpD Mega Metagross: 191-226 (63.4 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Granted, you can't have all of these coverage moves on one set. You also won't always get lucky, maybe missing a MM or a Zen Headbutt, or get critted, or have Rocks up, meaning some attacks will KO. However, I haven't done any of these calc with rocks included and if they were, it would obviously be much more beneficial to MegaGross as it resists them.

What this shows is that MegaGross can 1v1 every single Pokemon in S and A+ rank outside of Mega Sableye and Zard X and KO them (both being at full health) Just because it has the inability to run every coverage move, doesn't mean the opponent instantly knows what it has. They may lose 1-2 Pokemon or a lot of health just before they find out what moves you have. Not even take you out.

Now, of course, a lot of these calcs result with a very heavily damaged Metagross, and you may not want to have that happen. But the fact remains that, if need be, Metagross almost invariably creates a KO on every Pokemon it comes in on.

It's also hard to punish it with hazards, as it resists Rocks and switching out has very little cost. Once it comes in it almost guarantees a KO as a lot of its switchins get 2HKOed, so if you predict well it makes it very hard for your opponent to switch into a check freely.

On top of that, it's immune to Sticky Web and Intimidate before Mega Evolving, which is a small thing but makes it even better nonetheless.

Edit: Sorry, I forgot to mention before that in a 1v1, Zard-X comes out on top.

 

[teal6]

A check or a counter not being common is a bad argument. That is the entire point of the metagame. Uncommon things become more common in response to the dominance or prevalence of something else. Keldeo growing in popularity brought Celebi back up just recently, something less common became more common in response.

The only time it's a bad argument is when you have something as ludicrous as M Salamence, which had I think two counters in the entire game, that being Avalugg and sort of Porygon 2. This is clearly not the case with Metagross.