Resource RU Viability Ranking: ORAS Edition

[Moon]

Supporting Jelli rising to B due to its ability to check a good amount of threats with a great movepool that allows to shut down so many slow defensive mon, as The Leprechaun outlined so nicely.
Also supporting Medicham to B+ for now, (I can def see A-) as it is very similar to Hitmonlee in its wallbreaking ability with a few notable weaknesses in comparison, i.e. priority and knock off, but also a solid niche over 'lee with psychic stab and strong coverage moves.

 

[Ajna]

Supporting Jelli rising to B due to its ability to check a good amount of threats with a great movepool that allows to shut down so many slow defensive mon, as The Leprechaun outlined so nicely.
Also supporting Medicham to B+ for now, (I can def see A-) as it is very similar to Hitmonlee in its wallbreaking ability with a few notable weaknesses in comparison, i.e. priority and knock off, but also a solid niche over 'lee with psychic stab and strong coverage moves.

Don't forget that medi gets bullet punch along with fake out :] Regarding Jellicent, I definitely could see it moving up due to reasons already stated by lep. I really just think its a lot harder to fit on teams due to slowking being more versatile. Also, it being able to check Specs Mel do to its psychic typing, great special bulk, and regenerator is always nice. I'd say B- for the time being.

 

[lighthouses]

I think that lee and medicham both have some pros and cons:The former having knock off, while the later has stab psychic moves(and it's hjk is actually stronger).
IMO, they should share the same ranking.

 

[Natural Talent]

This guy right here deserves a rank imo. I think it should be around C/C+. It may be frail on the physical side but it can be worked around tbh. It gets recover, spin, and a good special defense stat which are good assets. i think it could beat with toxic cress if they don't sub when you break the sub or if they don't have it and no psyshock. It's a pretty cool mon in general i run it on a lot of teams rn. I think it's the faster spinner iirc. it can be pair with a bulky psychic to switch into fighting types. It eats up special hits and can spin which i think is a pretty good quality.

 

[boltsandbombers]

I feel Hitmonlee offers better utility in Rapid Spin, and is important to note that lee has stab priority as well as stronger property in sucker punch.

They're both frail hard hitters, but I don't feel that they should be on the same rank. I'm going with A- for Medicham.

Also rofl @ Cryogonal

 

[Froggyboy]

I think Cryogonal is decent enough to be D rank, but it falls short of C because it loses to most hazard setters and lacks power. But it is still a fast spinner which an immunity to Spikes, and with high special defense. So I see that to be enough for a D ranking.

 

[Natural Talent]

I think Cryogonal is decent enough to be D rank, but it falls short of C because it loses to most hazard setters and lacks power. But it is still a fast spinner which an immunity to Spikes, and with high special defense. So I see that to be enough for a D ranking.

tbh i think it has a bigger niche to be higher than d rank. it has access to recover hp fire to weaken doublade toxic to weaken special attackers and rapid spin with levitate so it won't get weakened by spikes that the up and coming crustle has. It actually has longevity with defensive sets as it has recover and get get leftovers recovery unlike offensive spinners that usualyy run LO or no recovery. that huge 135 s.def is huge.

It can run offensive sets with icicle plate which have an option to run recover over something like ice beam (since freeze dry is kind of need in a spot) or HP fire. 95 s.Atk is exactly huge but it isn't bad. It's a great addition to the viability rankings since it was lost in the coming of the ORAS RU tier when XY ended

 

[Mistress Remilia]

Supporting Jelli rising to B due to its ability to check a good amount of threats with a great movepool that allows to shut down so many slow defensive mon, as The Leprechaun outlined so nicely.
Also supporting Medicham to B+ for now, (I can def see A-) as it is very similar to Hitmonlee in its wallbreaking ability with a few notable weaknesses in comparison, i.e. priority and knock off, but also a solid niche over 'lee with psychic stab and strong coverage moves.

Medicham's much easier to handle through, even it is has some tricky set, the access to BP and all, it's wallbreaking are abilities are still far from Sawk's or Hitmonlee's wallbreaking abilities. After more testing with various sets, Medicham feels decent but, god, the ease of walling Medicham is so big.
Medicham for B-/B, honestly, it isn't much of a high threat. It has a cool 2nd STAB like Gallade. Speaking of which, he was also B during ORAS period ( Gallade ). Medicham has much more power, but less versatility, lack of decent special bulk, and NO KNOCK OFF DAMN IT.
+ Psychic STAB is really getting hype for nothing, it is just a cool 2nd STAB, but nothing too extraordinary either.

Oh and supporting Cryogonal for C Rank, it has a cool niche as fast spinner.

 

[MisterFinch]

I think Cryogonal is decent enough to be D rank, but it falls short of C because it loses to most hazard setters and lacks power. But it is still a fast spinner which an immunity to Spikes, and with high special defense. So I see that to be enough for a D ranking.

I'm going to have to agree with placing it in the D ranking it at least has a niche as a speedy Spinner, but it suffers from the dense amount of Fighting Types that roam RU. There's also the matter of Mega Lix, who'd love to Heavy Slam on anything or set up a Curse on Cryogonal.

As for Medicham, I can agree with A- ranking. While it has a vastly more powerful HJK and access to stab Psychic Moves (Good for dem Fighting Types), its Priority moves are not as beneficial aside from denting an incoming Fairy Type or Mega Glalie (Or Faking Out something upon entry). Hitmonlee hits several uses with Rapid Spin, Knock Off, and a Stab Priority Mach Punch that can really hurt. And yes, Psychic Stab is very good due to how common Fighting Types have become (Emboar and Hitmons especially).

 

[trc]

I told you guys jellicent was great :<

 

[aoemica]

I'd like to make a likely controversial nomination, but hear me out before any knee-jerk reactions.

E -> C+

Yeah yeah, Ambipom the trashy scrub mon that only clicks Fake Out and U-Turns away, doing more damage in recoil than it does to its opponent. Ambipom has gotten a lot of admittedly warranted flak due to the large number of inexperienced players that only use it as I mentioned above. However, I think it's time to hop off the hate bandwagon and see if Ambipom is really as bad as a lot of people make it out to be.

Let's compare it to Cinccino, a C+ pokemon that's considered by many as completely outclassing Ambipom. Cinccino's certainly got a few traits that stand out, such as coverage in the form of Rock Blast and Bullet Seed that let it hurt Alomomola, Golbat, and Rhyperior, three pokemon Ambipom really struggles with. Cinccino also has Tail Slap which of course hits harder than Return.

252 Atk Life Orb Ambipom Return vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Amoonguss: 181-214 (41.8 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Cinccino Tail Slap (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Amoonguss: 215-260 (49.7 - 60.1%) -- approx. 88.7% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

That's a fair bit of damage more on any neutral target, although you do sacrifice 15% accuracy for the extra damage. A fair comparison would be running Fire Blast over Flamethrower, although with less of a damage increase. I'm sure most of you already know all this and that's why you've all decided that Cinccino outclasses Ambipom. However, something that's been Extremely undersold is Ambipom's access to Low Kick. This move allows Ambipom to deal with a number of switch ins that Cinccino can't scratch. (please no wake-up slap calcs)

252 Atk Life Orb Ambipom Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 160 HP / 0 Def Cobalion: 229-270 (63 - 74.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Cinccino Tail Slap (5 hits) vs. 160 HP / 0 Def Cobalion: 85-105 (23.4 - 28.9%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Life Orb Ambipom Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Registeel: 200-237 (54.9 - 65.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Cinccino Tail Slap (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Registeel: 80-95 (21.9 - 26%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

Even though Ambipom's not quite capable of taking out Rhyperior as handily as Cinccino, Low Kick still manages to 3HKO Specially Defensive Rhyperior, which is not terrible all things considering. And to keep things relevant, Ambi can handle Pangoro easier than Cinccino, and without having to use shaky accuracy moves.

252 Atk Life Orb Ambipom Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Pangoro: 291-343 (87.6 - 103.3%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Cinccino Tail Slap (5 hits) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Pangoro: 275-320 (82.8 - 96.3%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Yeah I know, not the most reliable thing in the world. Still, a 60% chance beats a 6% chance with 85% accuracy. A few other notable targets of Low Kick include Magneton, Tyrantrum, and Mega Steelix. Ambipom falls slightly short of a few other OHKOs such as Pangoro, although one or two layers of spikes from Crustle or Accelgor can easily remedy this issue.

And of course we all know about the much overhyped Technician boosted Fake Out. I will say that Ambipom is very handy at forcing switches whether or not you actually use Fake Out which is always appreciated for hazard stacking teams. It is a passable backup check for frail but blazing fast sweepers such as Slurpuff and Fletchinder and scarfers that may not be easy to outsped naturally including Moltres and Delphox.

I'm not saying Ambipom is a fantastic mon by any means. It's not that powerful, noticeably less than Cinccino, definitely requires a fair amount of team support, and is still easily walled by a number of pokemon. However, Ambipom gets past multiple counters of Cinccino and has more than one small niche over it. It is definitely not outclassed and E rank worthy. Ambipom is at least as good as Cinccino is, and should be ranked accordingly to its actual viability rather than just dumped into the E rank because it's commonly misused.

 

[Froggyboy]

no
seriously, you didn't show anything to use that we haven't already heard or have biased arguments. A super effective hit outdamages a not very effective hit? NO WAY!
plus to my knowledge most cinccinos right now are banded, and you could always run Wake-Up Slap to hit bulky steels, which is at least more viable than Ambipom.

everything you have said has been brought up before, and denied, why bring them up again?

 

[tehy]

However, something that's been Extremely undersold is Ambipom's access to Low Kick. This move allows Ambipom to deal with a number of switch ins that Cinccino can't scratch. (please no wake-up slap calcs)

252 Atk Life Orb Ambipom Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 160 HP / 0 Def Cobalion: 229-270 (63 - 74.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Cinccino Tail Slap (5 hits) vs. 160 HP / 0 Def Cobalion: 85-105 (23.4 - 28.9%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Life Orb Ambipom Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Registeel: 200-237 (54.9 - 65.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Cinccino Tail Slap (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Registeel: 80-95 (21.9 - 26%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

Even though Ambipom's not quite capable of taking out Rhyperior as handily as Cinccino, Low Kick still manages to 3HKO Specially Defensive Rhyperior, which is not terrible all things considering. And to keep things relevant, Ambi can handle Pangoro easier than Cinccino, and without having to use shaky accuracy moves.

252 Atk Life Orb Ambipom Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Pangoro: 291-343 (87.6 - 103.3%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Cinccino Tail Slap (5 hits) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Pangoro: 275-320 (82.8 - 96.3%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Yeah I know, not the most reliable thing in the world. Still, a 60% chance beats a 6% chance with 85% accuracy. A few other notable targets of Low Kick include Magneton, Tyrantrum, and Mega Steelix. Ambipom falls slightly short of a few other OHKOs such as Pangoro, although one or two layers of spikes from Crustle or Accelgor can easily remedy this issue.

When comparing Ambipom and Cinccino in my head, this honestly did come up. However, the problem with it is, which of Ambipom's moves do you drop?

Fake Out-your niche. I guess your new niche can be Low Kick and I say that unfacetiously but damn, that's a pretty small niche.
Return- your STAB. I guess you can get rid of this and only hit switch-ins hard but like, what happens when the opponent doesn't switch?
Knock Off-your only way to hit ghosts (i guess you have lol beat up or w/e but my point is, this moveslot is for Ghost-hitting, which Low Kick sure as shit isn't doing, so if you put Low Kick here, you get walled by all ghosts and are epic Doubait.)
U-turn-your momentum. Again, i guess you can give this up, but then this is a major advantage Cinccino has over you.

At best it's Fake Out / Return / Knock Off / Low Kick, maybe simply U-turn on ghosts and accept being walled. I ask you though, is that worth using over Cinccino?

By the way, you mention Ambipom's good on hazards stack offense. Worth noting is that Cinccino is great against hazard stack offense:

252 Atk Choice Band Cinccino Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Crustle: 280-330 (99.6 - 117.4%) -- approx. 93.8% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Choice Band Cinccino Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Omastar: 560-660 (199.2 - 234.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Stopping these two, especially with Custap newly legal and Custap Crustle thus being a thing, is pretty sweet. Sure, you can Taunt Crustle, but that doesn't stop it from coming back in later; you can switch out of cinccino but you'll take a fair amount of damage most likely. (life orb can still take out Omastar, scarf can take out omastar and accelgor, LO might beat custap crustle if it lowers IVs on purpose to custap activate more often which does happen a lot on such sets). Just sayin', cinccino has sweet stuff going on too. Maybe ambipom can still be ranked for Fake Out but that's not a decision I feel like making.


A final point:when talking about unviable stuff, reject it with an open mind. In a lot of threads like these and creative sets threads, I see unviable stuff get rejected, but with bad explanations, which inevitably causes problems. You should seriously discuss this stuff if you want to get your point across; worst-case scenario is you turn out to be wrong!! in which case, it would've been pretty bad if you just rejected it out of hand. Also, don't just go with the herd and instantly reject stuff without considering it; not accusing anyone of that here but keep that in mind too.

Edit: By the way, Low Kick > U-turn leaves you dangerously thin on the Zangoose side- Toxic Boosted Quick Attack is as strong as Technician Fake Out, Close Combat ruins the hell out of any rocks or steels, its Knock Off is way stronger, and its facade is out of this world. All you have is Speed, some initial power on your priority and its flinch-inducing properties (zangoose doesn't need chip damage to get Koes like ambi does anyhow and its priority is stronger if it gets a free turn)

 

[MisterFinch]

I'd like to make a likely controversial nomination, but hear me out before any knee-jerk reactions.

E -> C+

Yeah yeah, Ambipom the trashy scrub mon that only clicks Fake Out and U-Turns away, doing more damage in recoil than it does to its opponent. Ambipom has gotten a lot of admittedly warranted flak due to the large number of inexperienced players that only use it as I mentioned above. However, I think it's time to hop off the hate bandwagon and see if Ambipom is really as bad as a lot of people make it out to be.

Let's compare it to Cinccino, a C+ pokemon that's considered by many as completely outclassing Ambipom. Cinccino's certainly got a few traits that stand out, such as coverage in the form of Rock Blast and Bullet Seed that let it hurt Alomomola, Golbat, and Rhyperior, three pokemon Ambipom really struggles with. Cinccino also has Tail Slap which of course hits harder than Return.

252 Atk Life Orb Ambipom Return vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Amoonguss: 181-214 (41.8 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Cinccino Tail Slap (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Amoonguss: 215-260 (49.7 - 60.1%) -- approx. 88.7% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

That's a fair bit of damage more on any neutral target, although you do sacrifice 15% accuracy for the extra damage. A fair comparison would be running Fire Blast over Flamethrower, although with less of a damage increase. I'm sure most of you already know all this and that's why you've all decided that Cinccino outclasses Ambipom. However, something that's been Extremely undersold is Ambipom's access to Low Kick. This move allows Ambipom to deal with a number of switch ins that Cinccino can't scratch. (please no wake-up slap calcs)

252 Atk Life Orb Ambipom Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 160 HP / 0 Def Cobalion: 229-270 (63 - 74.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Cinccino Tail Slap (5 hits) vs. 160 HP / 0 Def Cobalion: 85-105 (23.4 - 28.9%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Life Orb Ambipom Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Registeel: 200-237 (54.9 - 65.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Cinccino Tail Slap (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Registeel: 80-95 (21.9 - 26%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

Even though Ambipom's not quite capable of taking out Rhyperior as handily as Cinccino, Low Kick still manages to 3HKO Specially Defensive Rhyperior, which is not terrible all things considering. And to keep things relevant, Ambi can handle Pangoro easier than Cinccino, and without having to use shaky accuracy moves.

252 Atk Life Orb Ambipom Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Pangoro: 291-343 (87.6 - 103.3%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Cinccino Tail Slap (5 hits) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Pangoro: 275-320 (82.8 - 96.3%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Yeah I know, not the most reliable thing in the world. Still, a 60% chance beats a 6% chance with 85% accuracy. A few other notable targets of Low Kick include Magneton, Tyrantrum, and Mega Steelix. Ambipom falls slightly short of a few other OHKOs such as Pangoro, although one or two layers of spikes from Crustle or Accelgor can easily remedy this issue.

And of course we all know about the much overhyped Technician boosted Fake Out. I will say that Ambipom is very handy at forcing switches whether or not you actually use Fake Out which is always appreciated for hazard stacking teams. It is a passable backup check for frail but blazing fast sweepers such as Slurpuff and Fletchinder and scarfers that may not be easy to outsped naturally including Moltres and Delphox.

I'm not saying Ambipom is a fantastic mon by any means. It's not that powerful, noticeably less than Cinccino, definitely requires a fair amount of team support, and is still easily walled by a number of pokemon. However, Ambipom gets past multiple counters of Cinccino and has more than one small niche over it. It is definitely not outclassed and E rank worthy. Ambipom is at least as good as Cinccino is, and should be ranked accordingly to its actual viability rather than just dumped into the E rank because it's commonly misused.

I'm going to have to agree with the others. From E to C+ is a very large jump that would require a considerably larger range of reasons. Aside from the large array of moves that Cinccino has, it also has access to one of the most gimmicky sets allowed: King's Rock. The others made a good point where Ambipom becomes a faster, but weaker version of Zangoose who's priority move can only be used on switch in. Ambipom is also limited by what it can use, especially since it greatly needs a Priority move to compensate for its frailty.

BUT, I do agree that Ambipom shouldn't lurk in the depths of E and could probably be bumped up to D or C- at the absolute most. It has access to a decent amount of coverage moves including Seed Bomb, Elemental Punches and Acrobatics (Assuming you run Sash on all your Ambipoms), and boasts an alright 100 Base Attack. But yes, it definitely does not deserve to hit C+ Rank anytime soon.

 

[GOthee]

When comparing Ambipom and Cinccino in my head, this honestly did come up. However, the problem with it is, which of Ambipom's moves do you drop?

Fake Out-your niche. I guess your new niche can be Low Kick and I say that unfacetiously but damn, that's a pretty small niche.
Return- your STAB. I guess you can get rid of this and only hit switch-ins hard but like, what happens when the opponent doesn't switch?
Knock Off-your only way to hit ghosts (i guess you have lol beat up or w/e but my point is, this moveslot is for Ghost-hitting, which Low Kick sure as shit isn't doing, so if you put Low Kick here, you get walled by all ghosts and are epic Doubait.)
U-turn-your momentum. Again, i guess you can give this up, but then this is a major advantage Cinccino has over you.

At best it's Fake Out / Return / Knock Off / Low Kick, maybe simply U-turn on ghosts and accept being walled. I ask you though, is that worth using over Cinccino?

By the way, you mention Ambipom's good on hazards stack offense. Worth noting is that Cinccino is great against hazard stack offense:

252 Atk Choice Band Cinccino Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Crustle: 280-330 (99.6 - 117.4%) -- approx. 93.8% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Choice Band Cinccino Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Omastar: 560-660 (199.2 - 234.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Stopping these two, especially with Custap newly legal and Custap Crustle thus being a thing, is pretty sweet. Sure, you can Taunt Crustle, but that doesn't stop it from coming back in later; you can switch out of cinccino but you'll take a fair amount of damage most likely. (life orb can still take out Omastar, scarf can take out omastar and accelgor, LO might beat custap crustle if it lowers IVs on purpose to custap activate more often which does happen a lot on such sets). Just sayin', cinccino has sweet stuff going on too. Maybe ambipom can still be ranked for Fake Out but that's not a decision I feel like making.


A final point:when talking about unviable stuff, reject it with an open mind. In a lot of threads like these and creative sets threads, I see unviable stuff get rejected, but with bad explanations, which inevitably causes problems. You should seriously discuss this stuff if you want to get your point across; worst-case scenario is you turn out to be wrong!! in which case, it would've been pretty bad if you just rejected it out of hand. Also, don't just go with the herd and instantly reject stuff without considering it; not accusing anyone of that here but keep that in mind too.

Edit: By the way, Low Kick > U-turn leaves you dangerously thin on the Zangoose side- Toxic Boosted Quick Attack is as strong as Technician Fake Out, Close Combat ruins the hell out of any rocks or steels, its Knock Off is way stronger, and its facade is out of this world. All you have is Speed, some initial power on your priority and its flinch-inducing properties (zangoose doesn't need chip damage to get Koes like ambi does anyhow and its priority is stronger if it gets a free turn)

When comparing Ambipom and Cinccino in my head, this honestly did come up. However, the problem with it is, which of Ambipom's moves do you drop?

Fake Out-your niche. I guess your new niche can be Low Kick and I say that unfacetiously but damn, that's a pretty small niche.
Return- your STAB. I guess you can get rid of this and only hit switch-ins hard but like, what happens when the opponent doesn't switch?
Knock Off-your only way to hit ghosts (i guess you have lol beat up or w/e but my point is, this moveslot is for Ghost-hitting, which Low Kick sure as shit isn't doing, so if you put Low Kick here, you get walled by all ghosts and are epic Doubait.)
U-turn-your momentum. Again, i guess you can give this up, but then this is a major advantage Cinccino has over you.

At best it's Fake Out / Return / Knock Off / Low Kick, maybe simply U-turn on ghosts and accept being walled. I ask you though, is that worth using over Cinccino?

By the way, you mention Ambipom's good on hazards stack offense. Worth noting is that Cinccino is great against hazard stack offense:

252 Atk Choice Band Cinccino Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Crustle: 280-330 (99.6 - 117.4%) -- approx. 93.8% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Choice Band Cinccino Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Omastar: 560-660 (199.2 - 234.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Stopping these two, especially with Custap newly legal and Custap Crustle thus being a thing, is pretty sweet. Sure, you can Taunt Crustle, but that doesn't stop it from coming back in later; you can switch out of cinccino but you'll take a fair amount of damage most likely. (life orb can still take out Omastar, scarf can take out omastar and accelgor, LO might beat custap crustle if it lowers IVs on purpose to custap activate more often which does happen a lot on such sets). Just sayin', cinccino has sweet stuff going on too. Maybe ambipom can still be ranked for Fake Out but that's not a decision I feel like making.


A final point:when talking about unviable stuff, reject it with an open mind. In a lot of threads like these and creative sets threads, I see unviable stuff get rejected, but with bad explanations, which inevitably causes problems. You should seriously discuss this stuff if you want to get your point across; worst-case scenario is you turn out to be wrong!! in which case, it would've been pretty bad if you just rejected it out of hand. Also, don't just go with the herd and instantly reject stuff without considering it; not accusing anyone of that here but keep that in mind too.

Edit: By the way, Low Kick > U-turn leaves you dangerously thin on the Zangoose side- Toxic Boosted Quick Attack is as strong as Technician Fake Out, Close Combat ruins the hell out of any rocks or steels, its Knock Off is way stronger, and its facade is out of this world. All you have is Speed, some initial power on your priority and its flinch-inducing properties (zangoose doesn't need chip damage to get Koes like ambi does anyhow and its priority is stronger if it gets a free turn)

It depends what move you want, if you want prioity and need soemthign vs faster pokemon , go with fake out, return, knock off and low kick. If you know you are getting walled most of the game fo Fake out knock off u turn and low kick. I agree he is pretty bad if you DONT have the RIGHT MOVES. Otherwise you can do your job well. Sure other normal types have less RISK .I dont see him rising to C- because the people in charge of the rankings consider Ambipom trash but I guess its worth a try. RIP ME.

 

[HypnoEmpire]

Just saying, but I feel like being able to do actual, solid damage against most Ghost- and Steel-type Pokemon gives Ambipom a niche that Cincinno doesn't have. I don't think a rise to C+ is reasonable, considering that its E rank right now, but it isn't completely and terribly outclassed like Claydol and Hitmonchan. D is probably the best I'd give Ambipom. Also, it has a chance to 2HKO SpD Alomomola after rocks with Double-Edge if that's a thing. You could argue to use Kanghaskhan or Zangoose, but that Speed tier is really good. I've used Ambipom as a lure to get rid of Doublade and Rhyperior, which were annoying to my team and it wasn't even that terrible at doing that tbh. Not even that great, but I think Ambipom is considered garbage because people run Fake Out Normal Gem and Fake Out Last Resort and use Fake Out no matter what, even when the bulky Ghost is obviously going to switch in in the lower ladder. However, it shouldn't be looked in that way because that would be like ranking Hitmonlee for the Fake Out Normal Gem Unburden set that the lower ladder loves so much (an exaggeration, but still).

Tl;dr look at its positives before bashing it for its negatives (and no, Technician Fake Out isn't its only positive).

 

[col49]

ok, i'll bite

ambipom is not an e rank pokemon, at least by the projected standards of this thread; it has an actually useful speed tier, it doesn't hit like a complete pansy (it can 2hko rhyperior / cobalion / registeel w/low kick after sr, can get off at least 70ish% on other normal resists before going down, and its return can at least pop off less physically invested bulky waters, like slowking), and can function in a fashion that does not leave it entirely outclassed or certain, overload-centric teams. this would, to my understanding of the system, likely put it somewhere in the mid-d range, as it is still has a very narrow niche when brought to scrutiny against pokemon of much more broad application, such as cincinno (who currently retains far more 'utility value' for its ability to combat prominent sr Pokemon, notably rhyperior [without having to make a prediction to catch it], seismatoad, and crustle). i could see no issue with putting it in this category, but could not see it going any further, by merit of not only the issue presented by opportunity cost in relation to what might be observed as far superior options in the tier, but superior options in the metagame at hand, which i feel should be acknowledged more heavily.

this, to some degree, highlights why i, and perhaps others (can't speak for anyone but myself, as i am only one man), tend to avoid threads such as these. one might hope that, ideally, this could be a place to discuss metagame trends and their respective impact on certain pokemon, lending itself to improve the proficiency of certain pokemon in certain roles whilst hindering the performance of others. rather, i will oftentimes find this thread riddled with blatant, untested theorymonning and unsupportive regurgitation of numbers (base stats, archaic / non-applicable calcs, etc.). i'm no mod, nor anybody with any real authority at all, but i would so greatly encourage folks to put a bit more 'meat' into their posts here; acknowledge the state of the meta when posting about how a certain 'mon is better or worse now, make your calcs reflect relevant scenarios, etc. etc. furthermore, please don't drag out arguments for as long as many do at this time, as they will inevitably boil down to semantics, and there are better applications of your time than to dwell on a matter that neither side looks to budge on. this point stands for the defending party as well, of course; there has been a standing trend of elitist hive-minding within the ru community, and while it has certainly improved with time, it has by no means dissipated entirely, and trends of hitting up an "lol, you're wrong, feed me likes"-esque response is malignant and counterproductive to what should be a thread for respectful discussion. This should be something that newer users and / or folks looking to play this metagame can look to for guidance, not something to expose them to the worst side of what i know full well to be a positive community of good kids. if folks could exercise some judgement and tact when approaching this thread, i feel it could be quite productive, rather than the eyesore it can so often become. i absolutely despise making posts like these, b.c nobody should get this serious about 'mons or anything 'mons-related, but sometimes it needs to be done. fanks for your time

 

[Don Honchkrorleone]

For Jeovah's sake people, stop masturbating to Ambipom... I'm pretty sure Llamas forbade any talk about it some pages ago...

plus to my knowledge most cinccinos right now are banded, and you could always run Wake-Up Slap to hit bulky steels, which is at least more viable than Ambipom.

Wut

The others made a good point where Ambipom becomes a faster, but weaker version of Zangoose who's priority move can only be used on switch in. Ambipom is also limited by what it can use, especially since it greatly needs a Priority move to compensate for its frailty.

Weaker is not emphasizing enough. Zangoose has 115 BEFORE being poisoned, while Ambipom has 100.

Also, it has a chance to 2HKO SpD Alomomola after rocks with Double-Edge if that's a thing

That is a niche over which physical attacker?

You could argue to use Kanghaskhan or Zangoose, but that Speed tier is really good. I've used Ambipom as a lure to get rid of Doublade and Rhyperior, which were annoying to my team and it wasn't even that terrible at doing that tbh.

And can't both of the Pokemon you mentioned do both? Zangoose has Knock Off + CC and Kanga has Drain Punch/EQ and Dark coverage. Hell, even Cinccino can use Sing do lure Doublade.

Not even that great, but I think Ambipom is considered garbage because people run Fake Out Normal Gem and Fake Out Last Resort and use Fake Out no matter what, even when the bulky Ghost is obviously going to switch in in the lower ladder.

Actually it's quite the opposite. The set I see the most is the Fake Out + 3 "standard" moves with LO. And is still underwhelming.

Tl;dr look at its positives before bashing it for its negatives (and no, Technician Fake Out isn't its only positive).

Youu didn't post any positive fren :/

Also nominating Emboar to A+ cause it's stupidly good rn and has ways to defeat common checks, but mainly to distract from the Ambipom illness. I'll post thoughts later as I want to poop now.

 

[aoemica]

For Jeovah's sake people, stop masturbating to Ambipom... I'm pretty sure Llamas forbade any talk about it some pages ago...

Sorry, I forgot that attempting to seriously discuss something that's historically been defended and attacked by poor arguments is considered "masturbating" by some. I thought we wanted a thread that reflects viability, not just dumping on one pokemon just because "lol Ambipom is bad".

When comparing Ambipom and Cinccino in my head, this honestly did come up. However, the problem with it is, which of Ambipom's moves do you drop?

Fake Out-your niche. I guess your new niche can be Low Kick and I say that unfacetiously but damn, that's a pretty small niche.
Return- your STAB. I guess you can get rid of this and only hit switch-ins hard but like, what happens when the opponent doesn't switch?
Knock Off-your only way to hit ghosts (i guess you have lol beat up or w/e but my point is, this moveslot is for Ghost-hitting, which Low Kick sure as shit isn't doing, so if you put Low Kick here, you get walled by all ghosts and are epic Doubait.)
U-turn-your momentum. Again, i guess you can give this up, but then this is a major advantage Cinccino has over you.

At best it's Fake Out / Return / Knock Off / Low Kick, maybe simply U-turn on ghosts and accept being walled. I ask you though, is that worth using over Cinccino?

I definitely would say U-turn is the easiest move to give up. It's of course a fairly weak attack, and there are better momentum grabbers that have more utility.

By the way, you mention Ambipom's good on hazards stack offense. Worth noting is that Cinccino is great against hazard stack offense:

252 Atk Choice Band Cinccino Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Crustle: 280-330 (99.6 - 117.4%) -- approx. 93.8% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Choice Band Cinccino Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Omastar: 560-660 (199.2 - 234.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

I'm aware that Cinccino's great at stopping Omastar from setting up hazards, although it's not super common or even good as a hazard lead (at least in my opinion). Crustle, on the other hand, is able to be stopped by Cinccino right now, but I'm not so sure this will continue to be the case. I'm not sure how relevant you all will consider this, but personally I see 0 reason for Crustle to run 252 speed Jolly anymore, and can run a more bulky spread back from its bw2 days which would render even band Cinccino to be unable to kill it.

252 Atk Choice Band Cinccino Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 220 HP / 20 Def Crustle: 280-330 (83.3 - 98.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Take it as you will, but I see people moving to this spread or one similar to it in the near future.

Edit: By the way, Low Kick > U-turn leaves you dangerously thin on the Zangoose side- Toxic Boosted Quick Attack is as strong as Technician Fake Out, Close Combat ruins the hell out of any rocks or steels, its Knock Off is way stronger, and its facade is out of this world. All you have is Speed, some initial power on your priority and its flinch-inducing properties (zangoose doesn't need chip damage to get Koes like ambi does anyhow and its priority is stronger if it gets a free turn)

Zangoose is a very fair point, and is a lot better in power, and will consistently hit harder. I won't attempt to argue that Ambipom's a better wallbreaker than it, (it's not by any definition of the word,) but it's worth checking out the sheer number of things Ambipom outspeeds that Zangoose fails to. Cobalion, Virizion, Glalie, and Houndoom to name a few. Unless you're running Swords Dance Quick Attack, which only beats Houndoom anyways, you won't be able to touch any of them as they proceed to force you out.

I still believe Ambipom is able to handle a significant number of pokemon that Cinccino can't, and vice versa, that they should be ranked similarly. Yeah Ambipom has troubles with a number of walls, but so does Cinccino and I don't see people dumping on it for that.

 

[Mymble]

Sorry, I forgot that attempting to seriously discuss something that's historically been defended and attacked by poor arguments is considered "masturbating" by some. I thought we wanted a thread that reflects viability, not just dumping on one pokemon just because "lol Ambipom is bad".

We do, if Ambipom were higher it would be misrepresenting its viability. If you want the discussion to pass beyond "just dumping on one pokemon" please stop rehashing the same arguments. Ambipom is directly outclassed by Cinccino, a Pokemon which isn't exactly amazing to begin with. Ambipom's only arguably half decent match-up is against offense, which even then Ambipom struggles as it really isn't very strong and is incredibly frail. Ambimpom can't handle shit, Ambipom is the softest of checks to Cobalion and Verizion. It can't OHKO, either and gets OHKed back by both. Why would anyone invest that much in bulk on Crustle other than to stop it being OHKOed by a minor threat, especially consider it has Sturdy.

 

[aoemica]

We do, if Ambipom were higher it would be misrepresenting its viability. If you want the discussion to pass beyond "just dumping on one pokemon" please stop rehashing the same arguments. Ambipom is directly outclassed by Cinccino, a Pokemon which isn't exactly amazing to begin with. Ambipom's only arguably half decent match-up is against offense, which even then Ambipom struggles as it really isn't very strong and is incredibly frail. Ambimpom can't handle shit, Ambipom is the softest of checks to Cobalion and Verizion. It can't OHKO, either and gets OHKed back by both. Why would anyone invest that much in bulk on Crustle other than to stop it being OHKOed by a minor threat, especially consider it has Sturdy.

You're saying I'm misrepresenting its viability, but you didn't even read anything I wrote if you think Cinccino completely outclasses Ambipom. It can actually hit Cobalion, Tyrantrum, Registeel, Mega Steelix, and Magneton. If you honestly think none of those are significant in the slightest I don't have anything else to say to you. The fact that so many people all of these cases are completely irrelevant for considering Ambipom over Cinccino really shows how much people have bandwagoned instead of stopping to think for 2 seconds. Maybe the reason I'm "rehashing the same arguments" is because nobody will bother to actually consider them.

Crustle isn't running bulk just to beat Cinccino, it's because it no longer needs max speed thanks to Custap Berry. Unless you can show me that max speed has suddenly become vital due to some metagame change I'm unaware of from BW2 to ORAS, I don't believe there's a reason to change a proven effective spread from the past.

 

[Molk]

Alrighty, gonna *finally* make some updates x.x

Updates

Golbat up to A- rank
Mega Steelix up to A rank
Aurorus up to C rank
Sawk up to B+ rank
Medicham added to B+ rank
Jellicent up to B- rank
Crustle up to B- rank

As for a few things i'd like some more discussion on, i'd definitely like to see some talk on Cobalion. A few people have told me they think its S rank worthy, but i'm personally not sure and as far as i know this hasn't actually been brought up in the thread yet, would anyone mind giving their thoughts on it?

I also feel like B+ rank is starting to get a bit overinflated, is there anything in particular you guys think should move up to the A ranks or drop down a bit? If so, speak up imo!

As for any other changes that might have been brought up but didn't get made, that's probably because i'm either unsure on whether i want to go through with it yet or not (the Eelektross nominations in particular), or because i completely missed it in the flood of Durant/Ambipom discussion. If you really feel strongly about changes you brought up that haven't been made yet, feel free to bring them up again here :).

Carry on, :x.

 

[Don Honchkrorleone]

Sorry, I forgot that attempting to seriously discuss something that's historically been defended and attacked by poor arguments is considered "masturbating" by some. I thought we wanted a thread that reflects viability, not just dumping on one pokemon just because "lol Ambipom is bad".

Sorry, I forgot all people defending that shit use the same masquerade fanboy argument for putting it up. And it happens every single time. And EVERY BLOODY TIME Ambipom is mentioned in this thread, it goes cancerous very very fast between fanboys/haters/players. Any discussion to it always derails the purpose of this thread. Why discuss it when there are things like Eelektross, Jellicent (move up imo), Emboar, Fletchinder, et many cetera in S/A/B ranks things much more useful and controversial in the current state of the metagame? I suggest whenever considering using that pile of crap, or any other good/bad Pokemon, think: 1) Why would I use Ambipom on this metagame and 2) why would I use it NOT ONLY OVER Cinccino but over a ton of fast physical attackers on the current state of RU, then 3) Since I'm using Ambipom, what exactly it is going to accomplish in my particular team that any other Pokemon would not. Then, considering its niche and that its niche fulfills the need of your team better than any other Pokemon available in RU.

I still believe Ambipom is able to handle a significant number of pokemon that Cinccino can't, and vice versa, that they should be ranked similarly. Yeah Ambipom has troubles with a number of walls, but so does Cinccino and I don't see people dumping on it for that.

So put Hariyama on S. It can handle Mega Glalie better than Pangoro. Or what about Primeape with/above Medicham? It can deal with Doublade and Reuniclus better than Medicham. It doesn't matter if X can beat Y better than Z, the point of this is the viability on the metagame as a whole.

Another thing for all Ambipom masturbators:

Crustle isn't running bulk just to beat Cinccino, it's because it no longer needs max speed thanks to Custap Berry. Unless you can show me that max speed has suddenly become vital due to some metagame change I'm unaware of from BW2 to ORAS, I don't believe there's a reason to change a proven effective spread from the past.

What about that magical stat named Attack? I think Chenkovsky was referring to that o.o

EDIT: Fuck this Ambipom talk. I nominate Cinccino down to C or C-. It sure has the speed and strong coverage moves, but it's not very good on the current metagame. It's infested with Fighting-types and balance/bulky offense is the best playstyles at least imo, which can deal with Cincinno quite easily. The rise of Mega-Steelix (ambipom ONLY 3HKOes it while getting OHKOed by 56 Atk Heavy Slam so shut up Ambipom masturbators) and the ever-popular stall hurts it a lot too. It has gained a niche with the release of Custap for being able to beat consistently Crustle and pineco the based so it's not THAT completely useless, but it's not too relevant in current RU.

 

[Kurona]

I mean... unless Ambipom suddenly became immensely better in the meta shift; aren't there more important things to discuss than the ranking of something which is, for all intents and purposes, unranked?

 

[DittoCrow]

Why would you even use Ambipom? Cinccino too; they seem irrelevant in the metagame. I can't think of situations where I would use either because they are so easily beaten.