Battle Maison Discussion & Records

[Theron]

For a rotation trick room team, would it be better for the 4th Pokemon to be a back-up trick room setter or a sweeper for when trick room wears off?

 

[cant say]

For a rotation trick room team, would it be better for the 4th Pokemon to be a back-up trick room setter or a sweeper for when trick room wears off?

Well it really depends. If you are unable to get Trick Room off and your lone setter is KOd, then your back up has to do all the work since your Trick Room Sweepers are almost useless then. But if you run a second setter, and your two sweepers are KOd then you'll find it hard to win with just the setters left. If you want to go with a backup sweeper than it should probably be something with strong priority so it doesn't have to worry if Trick Room is up or not, Mega Kangaskhan would be good in that regard with Fake Out and/or Sucker Punch. I'm planning to use Reuniclus as my fourth as it can reset Trick Room and has a good offensive presence once it's up.

Either way, it's hard to give advice without knowing your full team

 

[JES]

Already mapped by others in this thread. Collected in the first post. (It's the links before the actual records.) Sorry, if I realized you weren't using them, I would have already mentioned them.

Edit: So I watched the battle video you posted. There are two major errors I noticed.

First was the second turn Skill Swap from Audino after mega evolving. That was just wrong all around - with a confused teammate on the field, I feel like Heal Bell was the obvious call, but Heal Pulse would have also helped if you were hoping Healer would activate. I feel like that's what caused you to lose Slaking. Since Audino goes after Slaking, Heal Bell wouldn't have prevented that first self-hit, but at the very least it would have given you the chance to Slack Off + Heal Pulse on turn 2, which would have survived the double Payback and opened you up for Return + Heal Pulse on turn 3 (anticipating a Confuse Ray from Umbreon) which puts you in a relatively good position against this team: opening gambit successful, one pokemon up, and only one team member slightly injured. (Potentially confused, but that can be worked around.)

The second big mistake was trying to attack with a confused Aegislash who had the option to swap out. If Aegislash is confused, the only correct moves for it are King's Shield and swapping out - confusion is devastating to Blade Forme Aegislash, as you witnessed firsthand there.

In fact, in general, the correct answer to confusion in the Battle Maison is to swap out. Sometimes swapping can be dicey, but in many situations it is less dicey than staying in and hoping you don't take the confuse hit.

Also, Payback is a contact move, and Aegislash could have used King's Shield straight away to get an attack drop on Absol (and potentially Umbreon) so that the hit that activated Weakness Policy would have hurt even less. King's Shield + Heal Bell is a really good combo if you get an attack drop out of it. I don't really know if that would have changed the outcome of your fight, but it's another option you could have taken to think about in the future.

I also notice Slaking didn't get Lefotvers recovery, and it seems to have dealt more to Absol1 than the math says it should have gotten. Did you put a Silk Scarf on it? If that's the case, a Life Orb would have been much better - you'd have had an 87% chance to score the OHKO instead of a mere 35%, and the OHKO probably would have saved this battle for you.

There was definitely some bad luck here (you took every confusion hit possible), but there were also some misplays. Assuming that fourth mon is Victreebel1, this was probably winnable for you.

The good news is, your theorymoning for this team seems to have been pretty solid. I think Cleric Audino + First-turn-setup Mon + Aegislash is a good team core for doubles, you just need to find a setup sweeper and a fourth member who fit well together. (I would look at Gyarados for the setup sweeper first, just because Skill Swapping Intimidate is a gimmick I could not pass up, but I'm weird like that.)

Edit2: So, probably should have looked this up, but apparently Heal Bell does not cure Confusion. I still maintain that Heal Pulse was a much better action than Skill Swap, and double-switching your front line wouldn't have been terrible either.

I've tried Heal Bell on confusion; it has no effect, much to my annoyance.

Agreed that Skill Swapping with Umbreon was a mistake. I forgot if one of Umbreon's abilities were Magic Bounce, and I figured it couldn't hurt, and I didn't anticipate a Confuse Ray spam, otherwise I would have been pounding on Umbreon instead.

You're right, I perhaps should have used King's Shield, but figured that would just leave My Pet Sword Confuse Ray bait.

I can confirm that the opponent did have a Victreebel.

And yeah, I had to give Slowbro the Leftovers, so I just gave Slaking Bright Powder.

I'll give Gyarados a go though. I think that I already have a Jolly Swift Swim Magikarp, who I just need to train.

 

[ReptoAbysmal]

This is cool info, but no, I didn't soft reset immediately before, nor do I remember the other items I pulled. My base has 5 Pick Something Up trainers, so each morning I just quickly take my 10 shots at a Master Ball. I tried soft resetting earlier, but if I recall, I got the exact same items after the soft reset, so I gave up on trying to manipulate things and just hope to get lucky. Going forward, I'll be sure to pay more attention to the other items I pull, however, and if there's any specific ways I can help your testing, let me know.

I should probably clarify exactly what I mean. I'll keep it quick since it's essentially off-topic.

Ninja Boys, as an example, have three actions of interest- Gather Berries, Find Stones, and pick Something up. If "Pick something up" yields a PP Up, "Gather Berries" will ALWAYS net a Maranga Berry, and "Find Stones" will ALWAYS net a Dawn Stone, every time, without fail. Any secret pal that has any two of those two actions will always yield the same results depending on the particular item you get. This pertains ONLY to that specific secret pal, however, as the next Ninja Boy may only give an Escape Rope or Revive, both of which belong to groups of shitty low-end berries, and the Everstone.
So, if you really want Dawn Stones, but are still checking for valuable pickup items like PP Max or whatever, you would know that you should soft reset whenever you get a PP Up and choose Find Stones instead, and bam- Dawn Stone.

I am trying to discern whether Gather Berries will yield a Lansat Berry or something of similar value when a Master Ball is the prize for Pick something up. That also goes for the evolution stone, especially considering that all stones are already covered (and not particularly difficult to earn) from other, lower item tiers.

What I had been doing previously was farming pinch berries off of Ninja Boys and soft resetting when I could tell that I would get a PP Up, or had a decent shot at a PP Max (does not belong to an exclusive group.) I have 30 Blissey Bases, all of which ruled over by Ninja Boys, so that's 60 items per day (I had been doing this for over a month, which takes about 20-30 minutes a day.) I mostly needed PP Up/Max because I'd been doing an awful lot of breeding for TR flunkies, especially due to the recent onflux of previously unavailable HA abilies, plus random shit like Moonblast Vileplume.

 

[Jumpman16]

That's fantastic info, thanks ReptoAbysmal. I tend to think stuff like that is on-topic for this thread, since PP Ups and PP Maxes absolutely matter and are the one things ingame you can't get relatively easily. I use the Loto or whatever it's called in Lilycove "every day", and my breeding-fodder-turned-Wonder-Trade-fodder has been helpful in yielding a PP up or PP Max every time (I have like five boxes of Wonder Trade stuff [with a ton of different IDs for the Loto for those following along at home]), but any more efficient ways would be great to know. If you could link to or briefly say the most efficient way to get flags (I'm at 162 and stopped trying to find people who still do them and get multiple flags) so I could get to 500 and do Pick Something Up twice per pal, that'd be great. I'm most annoyed that my 3 Lv80-100 Pick Up pokemon have yet to pick up a PP Up in hundreds of battles, yet I've gotten a Destiny Knot, but I digress.

Of course, why would I care about PP Ups? What am I doing with them, I have a great team already, etc. Well, miffed that 1,560 was interrupted on a technicality, I took it as my once chance to experience with other pokes I like. I decided to try to give lead Greninja one more shot (it led to Kangliscune, after all). I realized that many of the things it hated, like Bug and Fighting, could be set up on by Mega Salamence. Since I'm in love with Salamence (probably my third-favorite poke after Espeon and Starmie), I figured it would be fun to try to build a quick team around Greninja and Mega Salamence.

It is hard. Really hard, lol. Though great against everything else this team would ask it to handle, Chansey dislikes tangling with rock pokemon , which neither Ninja nor Sala like to switch into. Aero4 was basically public enemy #1 since Greninja had to switch out since it's OHKOed by CB SE, as is Sala even through Intimidate. Aegislash destroys Aero, but hates status, especially Paralysis, and therefore hates pokes like Pory2, and would need Rest to begin to deal with them, or some stupid Lum set. Swampert is immune to Par but can be overwhelmed by pokes like Gardy4 that will fire off a Moonblast that, like Aero's SE, neither Ninja or Sala like. Then things like Ferrothorn were ideas of stuff that could take status, switch into Aero, pivot from Gardy (Focus Blast) to a faster Salamence that OHKOs with Return...all considered. Some tried. None as fun as just using Kangliscune. So I decided to make this fun again.

Back to Kangliscune. It actually got to the point where I started to feel rare but unmistakeable pangs of guilt that I let down my pokemon, which is obviously hilarious considering I'm well aware that they're just bits and bytes? I'm basically orever wrestling with my inner creator and my outer performer. But given how my last two streaks ended (both not their fault), it makes sense to let these fine instruments of Kangliscune sound out their symphony, director be damned.

So every day, or every other day, I'm going to post real time battle progress with Kangliscune along with real actual post content. I hope you stay as tuned as my instruments have...

 

[GG Unit]

As someone who's taken the time to enter 50+ boxes of trainer IDs from Pokebank into a spreadsheet (which yields a PP Max ~80 percent of the time but has only gotten 2 Master Balls), I'd say the most efficient method (in terms of "I have nothing and want to max out PP on all 4 of this Pokemon's moves ASAP") is just doing a bunch of Wonder Trades and buying PP Ups from the online Pokemiles shop. The odder the hour to get more trades with people on the other side of the world, the better. Since Rare Candies are the default item I stock up on when my BP gets close to 9999, there's nothing else to spend Pokemiles on anyway.

To put a baseline number out there, 20 minutes of Wonder Trades just got me 1,434 Pokemiles. 3 PP Ups per 20 minutes is definitely reasonable if you time it correctly since it's still early enough here that most of my trades were with fellow Americans. Actually, 4-5 per 20 minutes would be more likely now that I'm looking at the miles an individual transaction gets; only 13 for trading with someone in Georgia (the state) compared to 90 for South Korea and 82 for Japan.

 

[turskain]

Doing the lottery with a lot of Wonder Trade Pokémon is fastest - only doable once per day, but if you keep boxes of WT mons on two or more carts, you can do the lottery on every cart daily. Having to WT to get those boxes takes a while, but the process also gets you PP UPs via Poke Miles.

Since ORAS's release, doubling up on the lottery along with passive Pick Up slavery (filling any free slots with Pick Up whenever doing EV training/money grind/etc) has been enough and I haven't had to explore the new grinding options.



Theron, a sweeper that can work outside TR as the 4th has had the most success on the leaderboard. With Rotations mechanics, you'll hardly ever need it to act under TR since you can just rotate in your TR abusers when it is in effect. For a 4th TR abuser, the question is: if you've lost one of the three leads which are all TR-focused and cannot win the battle with the remaining two TR Pokémon, how often is a 4th TR abuser going to salvage it when the primary 3-mon TR strategy was already unable to?

 

[aussieman000]

I got through to the Chatelaine in OR by borrowing turkstain's Greninja/Lucario for triples team. I think I've got a feel for this now. I'm liking how even the easy battles are still fun. It's like there's less perfect matchups, but more opportunity to recover from mistakes - without the battle taking longer as it does in rotations.

I've been theorymonning an Explosion-based team lately. It's basically hitting 3 pokemon at once with Outrage, so it seems pretty powerful. And now that Custap Berry is available we have 2 items that synergize well with it. So many of the users are slow, so I thought it could be interesting as part of a Trick Room strategy. Also, Mega Camerupt seems like a decent mixed Exploder - smacking Steel and Rock-types around with it's Sheer Force boosted STAB and then exploding to do ~ 40% to anything the Maison has which resists Fire/Ground. I noticed some chatter about it a while back in the thread, did anyone come across some solid ideas?

 

[VaporeonIce]

That's fantastic info, thanks ReptoAbysmal. I tend to think stuff like that is on-topic for this thread, since PP Ups and PP Maxes absolutely matter and are the one things ingame you can't get relatively easily. I use the Loto or whatever it's called in Lilycove "every day", and my breeding-fodder-turned-Wonder-Trade-fodder has been helpful in yielding a PP up or PP Max every time (I have like five boxes of Wonder Trade stuff [with a ton of different IDs for the Loto for those following along at home]), but any more efficient ways would be great to know. If you could link to or briefly say the most efficient way to get flags (I'm at 162 and stopped trying to find people who still do them and get multiple flags) so I could get to 500 and do Pick Something Up twice per pal, that'd be great. I'm most annoyed that my 3 Lv80-100 Pick Up pokemon have yet to pick up a PP Up in hundreds of battles, yet I've gotten a Destiny Knot, but I digress.

Of course, why would I care about PP Ups? What am I doing with them, I have a great team already, etc. Well, miffed that 1,560 was interrupted on a technicality, I took it as my once chance to experience with other pokes I like. I decided to try to give lead Greninja one more shot (it led to Kangliscune, after all). I realized that many of the things it hated, like Bug and Fighting, could be set up on by Mega Salamence. Since I'm in love with Salamence (probably my third-favorite poke after Espeon and Starmie), I figured it would be fun to try to build a quick team around Greninja and Mega Salamence.

It is hard. Really hard, lol. Though great against everything else this team would ask it to handle, Chansey dislikes tangling with rock pokemon , which neither Ninja nor Sala like to switch into. Aero4 was basically public enemy #1 since Greninja had to switch out since it's OHKOed by CB SE, as is Sala even through Intimidate. Aegislash destroys Aero, but hates status, especially Paralysis, and therefore hates pokes like Pory2, and would need Rest to begin to deal with them, or some stupid Lum set. Swampert is immune to Par but can be overwhelmed by pokes like Gardy4 that will fire off a Moonblast that, like Aero's SE, neither Ninja or Sala like. Then things like Ferrothorn were ideas of stuff that could take status, switch into Aero, pivot from Gardy (Focus Blast) to a faster Salamence that OHKOs with Return...all considered. Some tried. None as fun as just using Kangliscune. So I decided to make this fun again.

Back to Kangliscune. It actually got to the point where I started to feel rare but unmistakeable pangs of guilt that I let down my pokemon, which is obviously hilarious considering I'm well aware that they're just bits and bytes? I'm basically orever wrestling with my inner creator and my outer performer. But given how my last two streaks ended (both not their fault), it makes sense to let these fine instruments of Kangliscune sound out their symphony, director be damned.

So every day, or every other day, I'm going to post real time battle progress with Kangliscune along with real actual post content. I hope you stay as tuned as my instruments have...

YESSS. So excited for the return of Jumpman!

I have probably 200 PP Ups and maybe 50 PP Maxes (thanks, Loto ID!), so I'm happy to provide if you need them. Good luck; I look forward to seeing Kangliscune play out to their (insane) potential.

 

[Shion SinX]

I suck in this game. Every team I though myself didn't get past 30 on super singles, since XY came out. One of my first teams was MegaKan with a couple bulky mons (one for each spectrum) but I tend to overlook stuff and end up on impossible match-ups.

So I decided to look the teams here and even tried that pre-ORAS #1 team with lead togekiss (yawn/safeguard/air slash/dazzling gleam) but didn't managed it well and the result was the same, couldn't reach the chantelaine at 50.

But this time, playing on ORAS, I decided to go hard to not go home. Borrowed a team again and got surprised of how freaking strong it is. I'm talking about the Durant/Cloyster/Drapion team.

For Odin, this team is sick! One time in 75 battles I had a hard time and almost lost for a lead snow warning abamasnow. It KOed Durant after a protect that stopped my entertainment (I didn't switched, thinking I had a second shot before it died) and the hail broke Cloyster's sash before KOing it too with focus blast. So I had Drapion under hail and abamasnow wasn't "truanted". Did my best to stall pp with protects and subs until it missed a couple blizzards and I got an evasion buff. Hell, Drapion was down to 1hp with sub up when I got defensive buffs. It's Blizzard and focus blast ran out and it couldn't break my sub even after four hits. By the time I finished my acupressures Drapion was at 100% hp again, and I could win that one. But it got me really scared, noticed that I should try switching out and in Durant again if the lead can 2hko.

The other time I missed entertainment was against a Latias but her dragon pulse did less than 25% so I just left Durant there to try gain. Those two were the only ones that evaded it on 75 battles.

A second close call came during my lunch. I started this run by morning, at work, and was overconfident by the time that Noivern came. I entertained it but Durant died, and I did one of the dumbest things ever: protected with Cloyster when it came out for free, on truant turn. Just noticed it after the second time (!!!) I used protect on truant turn, but ended up winning still thanks to one shell smash making a KO possible.

I guess I can't join the tops using a copycat team but I'm alredy theorymoning my own team since I saw that Durant / Whimsicott doing their thing. I suck at it but with a Durant +2 it might work. It involves so much stall that I will probly need double protection moves (like a toxic/protect/kings shield aegislash; not for consecutive turns of course but for enough pp stall using status and induced truant).

 

[GG Unit]

For Odin, this team is sick! One time in 75 battles I had a hard time and almost lost for a lead snow warning abamasnow. It KOed Durant after a protect that stopped my entertainment (I didn't switched, thinking I had a second shot before it died) and the hail broke Cloyster's sash before KOing it too with focus blast. So I had Drapion under hail and abamasnow wasn't "truanted". Did my best to stall pp with protects and subs until it missed a couple blizzards and I got an evasion buff. Hell, Drapion was down to 1hp with sub up when I got defensive buffs. It's Blizzard and focus blast ran out and it couldn't break my sub even after four hits. By the time I finished my acupressures Drapion was at 100% hp again, and I could win that one. But it got me really scared, noticed that I should try switching out and in Durant again if the lead can 2hko.

A second close call came during my lunch. I started this run by morning, at work, and was overconfident by the time that Noivern came. I entertained it but Durant died, and I did one of the dumbest things ever: protected with Cloyster when it came out for free, on truant turn. Just noticed it after the second time (!!!) I used protect on truant turn, but ended up winning still thanks to one shell smash making a KO possible.

Hail isn't breaking Cloyster's sash; I'm guessing what happened was that Focus Blast hit and then it took off Cloyster's last HP with Ice Shard. Abomasnow can definitely mess with Durant, but as you discovered Drapion can set up on a non-Truant version. Against stuff like that, it's gonna be better to go to Drapion first so you have Cloyster as a backup. That way, if Drapion were having a hard time setting up, you could either use Knock Off once before fainting, which would allow Cloyster to KO Abomasnow with Icicle Spear without having to take any damage or you could switch in Cloyster and sacrifice it to get rid of any remaining Focus Blast/Blizzard PP.

One thing that made setting up on non-Truant leads easier for me was assuming that if something used Protect on Durant, it was going to use Protect as often as possible on Drapion. What that means is that if Drapion's faster than the opponent, use Sub the first turn since you don't know if the opponent will be doing Protect-attack-Protect-attack or attack-Protect-attack-Protect. After that, adjust to make sure you're using Protect the turn after the opponent used it. It's pretty funny to go like 8 straight turns with nobody doing any damage, but that's an easy way to stall the opponent out of its most damaging attack even if Accupressure hasn't given you any good boosts yet.

Trust me, it's not dumb or that rare for what happened against Noivern to happen. It was very easy for me to zone out and move past the thought process of "if the lead KOed Durant, use the boosting move first" and "if Durant's still alive and you switched it out, use Protect first" and just automatically assume what had happened to Durant based on the lead. For example, a lead like Jolteon doesn't KO Durant with Thunderbolt so out of habit I'd use Protect the first turn Cloyster was out against it, but if Jolteon got a critical hit and KOed with Thunderbolt I'd possibly mess up and use Protect when it's loafing around. When something like that would happen, I'd go for a 2nd Protect on Cloyster; if it worked, everything's back to normal, and if it didn't I'd switch to Drapion and set it up instead.

 

[ReptoAbysmal]

The good news is, I got my second Master Ball this morning! Given an approximate date of the last time I'd gotten a Master Ball, I think the odds of pulling one from a secret pal are no better than 1/512. They actually might be worse; in over 2,000 individual item requests, two Master Balls is reasonably poor, but lately GF seems to like 1/512 odds for "rare" things a poor bastard can earn just frequently enough to taste merciful RNG. Friend Safari and Horde Shinies are also 512 AFAIK.

The bad news is, I'm wondering if the Master Ball follows a unique program (as may other items, like the Lansat) in that an item within a particular group may be overwritten by the Master Ball, while the other items in that group stay the same. I'll post my findings in a second, but I raised this question after seeing that 1. The other items in the Master Ball group were not remotely rare or valuable and, more curioiusly, 2. The item parallels for this Master Ball directly followed those of a group I had already established. One of the possible combinations for an Elixir is a Sitrus Berry and Water Stone. This Master Ball was paralleled by... a Sitrus Berry and a Water Stone.

For that matter, PP Maxes parallel a Stirus Berry and Leaf Stone, just like a specific Heart Scale group, but every single PP Max to date, which from secret pals is not a small number, has come with that specific pair, unlike other items with multiple groups. So, it's entirely possible that having already paired most valuable items with other things, GF just slapped some weak shit next to the Master Ball and left it at that. I have read but not verified claims that Gather Berries has earned a Lansat Berry, and it's always possible that person was mistaken or just lied.

Since Jumpman expressed interest and is such a swell guy, I present this table:

Escape Rope - Cheri Berry, Chesto Berry, Rawst Berry, Pecha Berry - Everstone
Ultra Ball - Aspear Berry, Rawst Berry - Everstone
Revive - Leppa Berry, Aspear Berry - Everstone
Elixir - Persim Berry - Thunder Stone
Elixir - Lum Berry - Water Stone, Thunder Stone
Elixir - Sitrus Berry - Water Stone, Fire Stone
Rare Candy - Leppa Berry - Fire Stone
Rare Candy - Persim Berry - Thunder Stone, Fire Stone
Heart Scale - Sitrus Berry - Leaf Stone
Heart Scale - Liechi Berry - Sun Stone
Heart Scale - Ganlon Berry - Sun Stone, Moon Stone
Full Restore - Salac Berry - Moon Stone
Full Restore - Petaya Berry - Shiny Stone
Max Revive - Petaya Berry, Apicot Berry, Kee Berry - Dusk Stone, Shiny Stone
PP Up - Maranga Berry - Dawn Stone
PP Max - Sitrus Berry - Leaf Stone
Master Ball - Sitrus Berry - Water Stone

An explanation is in order.

Notice the Max Revive is absolutely loaded with stones and berries, while other items like the Full Restore are separated into two? That's because in those 2,000 gifts I have had those items come in every possible pairing, with no discernable pattern. Whereas any Petaya Berry that paralleled a Full Restore has never, in over 2,000 gifts, been paired with anything other than a Shiny Stone. It is worth mentioning that the Kee Berry definitely feels rarer than the Apicot/Petaya, but still came paired with both stones.

If you only want PP Up/Max or Master Balls, there's really no need to try any other groups, though using the berries does make it very easy to tell when you've actually got something worth keeping from one of the other fetch quests.

 

[Shion SinX]

Hail isn't breaking Cloyster's sash; I'm guessing what happened was that Focus Blast hit and then it took off Cloyster's last HP with Ice Shard. Abomasnow can definitely mess with Durant, but as you discovered Drapion can set up on a non-Truant version. Against stuff like that, it's gonna be better to go to Drapion first so you have Cloyster as a backup. That way, if Drapion were having a hard time setting up, you could either use Knock Off once before fainting, which would allow Cloyster to KO Abomasnow with Icicle Spear without having to take any damage or you could switch in Cloyster and sacrifice it to get rid of any remaining Focus Blast/Blizzard PP.

Trust me, it's not dumb or that rare for what happened against Noivern to happen. It was very easy for me to zone out and move past the thought process of "if the lead KOed Durant, use the boosting move first" and "if Durant's still alive and you switched it out, use Protect first" and just automatically assume what had happened to Durant based on the lead. For example, a lead like Jolteon doesn't KO Durant with Thunderbolt so out of habit I'd use Protect the first turn Cloyster was out against it, but if Jolteon got a critical hit and KOed with Thunderbolt I'd possibly mess up and use Protect when it's loafing around. When something like that would happen, I'd go for a 2nd Protect on Cloyster; if it worked, everything's back to normal, and if it didn't I'd switch to Drapion and set it up instead.

Yeah I saved the replay and saw it, it was Ice shard taking the last 1HP from Cloyster. Durant died on its first turn for a flamethrower... all other times it died right away it did entretained and i followed with a shell smash, but this once I screwed it.

Both things happened on same battle, but were two distinct things and I dont know why I though they happened on different battles. So basically:

Durant entretained Noivern and died for a FF; Cloyster comes out and I protect, smash, protect and finally noticed what I did, but took damage and sash saved it with 1HP; smashed Cloyster kills Noivern, Abamasnow comes out with hail; I try to hit but take a priority and died; Drapion comes with a non-truant foe and some turns I could have protected I sub'ed instead due to abamasnow having two 70 acc moves, so if it misses I get an extra turn; Drapion goes al the way to 1HP and comes back when the right buffs come and foe has only ice shard; abamasnow cant break sub with shard alone, not even after 4 hits; drapion OHKOs abamasnow and the quagsire that comes after.

A little missplay by the start and I almost lost my streak as early as battle 51. But served to show how things go. Gotta be careful with double priority foes on future, as anything can trigger sash after 3 smashes.

One thing that made setting up on non-Truant leads easier for me was assuming that if something used Protect on Durant, it was going to use Protect as often as possible on Drapion. What that means is that if Drapion's faster than the opponent, use Sub the first turn since you don't know if the opponent will be doing Protect-attack-Protect-attack or attack-Protect-attack-Protect. After that, adjust to make sure you're using Protect the turn after the opponent used it. It's pretty funny to go like 8 straight turns with nobody doing any damage, but that's an easy way to stall the opponent out of its most damaging attack even if Accupressure hasn't given you any good boosts yet.

Nice tip, thanks. I will have to save the speed tiers on my phone, as when Im at work I cant use internet all the time. So far I only swaped Durant for Drapion a couple times, because it deals better with everything when buffed I prefer to use him last. And of course, because Cloyster setups way faster the battles pass in blazing speed with it coming after Durant.

 

[Darkflagrance]

Here's a CharChomp team that got me to 60 in super doubles so far:

Charizard Y @ Megastone
Timid / Blaze / 252 sp atk/252 speed/6 hp
Heat Wave
Solar Beam
Dragon Pulse
Protect

Garchomp @ Lum Berry
Jolly / Sand Veil / 252 atk/252 speed/4 hp
Dragon Claw
Earthquake
Rock Slide
Protect

Hitmontop @ Sitrus Berry
Adamant / Intimidate / 252 hp/252 atk/6 speed
Close Combat
Helping Hand
Wide Guard
Fake Out

Venusaur @ Wide Lens
Modest / Chlorophyll / 252 sp atk/180 hp /76 speed
Giga Drain
Sludge Bomb
Sleep Powder
Protect

I hope folks here won't mind if I ask for an informal critique going forward? Any issues with itemization or potential enemy team comps I may not be able to handle?

 

[Kostoglot]

Super useful thread. Not the most optimized team (mostly what I had lying around), but just hit 50 in Super Doubles with:

LatiasSitrus Berry
Timid
72 HP/184 SpA/252 Spe (adjusted this set for L50, so it's slightly off...)
Levitate

Psyshock
Draco Meteor
Tailwind
Helping Hand

Blastoise@Blastoisinite
Modest
Torrent (breeding was painful, Rain Dish seems better)
4 HP/252 SpA/252 Spe

Protect
Water Spout
Aura Sphere
Ice Beam

GarchompLum Berry
Jolly
Rough Skin
4 HP/252 Atk/252 Spe

Protect
Dragon Claw
Rock Slide
Earthquake

EnteiLife Orb
Adamant
Pressure
Not sure of EVs - bulk attacker

Protect
Sacred Fire
Extreme Speed
Iron Head

Pretty simple - Tailwind/Protect, Water Spout with Helping Hand to break through resists, or Meteor to pick off individual threats. Latias ate it pretty quickly in the later battles due to lots of Dark/Dragon/Ice attacks, so there may be a better supporter for this role... ideas? Never felt the moveset on Latias was optimal, though each move did see at least some use. Still, she had some dead turns - especially if there was a Wide Guard user and she had already dropped a Meteor.

Garchomp is there to switch in for Electric immunity, and also can make use of Latias's support. Probably the single most consistently useful pokemon in my boxes, regardless of format. Lum Berry to avoid losing my back row to Sleep/Confusion - feels good when he takes a Swagger. Focus Sash would likely work well, too.

I wanted a Fire type to resist Grass, and originally was using Talonflame for its priority, but wanted something with a bit more bulk, and the Ice resist. Keeping priority was important, so Entei fit the bill. Iron Head helped balance out my two Fairy-weak pokemon, and Sacred Fire helped punch some holes the others couldn't, especially with the 50% burn chance.

To be honest, I don't see this getting anywhere near as far as a Dusknoir/Aron type TR build, just a general good stuff build. And I wanted to play with Water Spout, which did not disappoint.

 

[Shion SinX]

I just got thinking who would be a good replacement for Cloyster but not being way too off, not something to just say "look, it's NOT a Cloyster!" but something to be different while bringing something to the table to pair with Durant and Drapion (soon to be changed too). I though about two guys:

Carracosta @ Life Orb
Adamant, Sturdy, 252 Atk/4 Spd/252 Spe
Shell Smash
Aqua Jet
Knock Off
Protect

Crawdaunt @ Focus Sash / Life Orb
Adamant, Adaptability, 252 Atk/4 Def/252 Spe
Dragon Dance
Aqua Jet
Knock Off
Protect

Both aren't the best in the world but both can bring strong priority STAB and at +6 Atk and Spe can pretty much OHKO anything and don't care about a priority incoming, one of the biggest problems of Cloyster ("who cares if you are +6 Spe, take this Ice Shard and die alredy"). They both have Knock Off (Crawdaunt being the strongest user in the game) for better covarage. Sometimes Cloyster had a hard time against stuff like Empoleon, and if sash was broken it would die because of the inability to OHKO at +6 (or in some cases, due to a miss from Rock Blast).

Carracosta setups as fast as Cloyster and can use Life Orb due to its ability, a free sash. Terrible Spe but at +6 and 252 EVs it can probly outspeed stuff, or else just use Jet. I know that Life Orb would break Sturdy on the first hit, but it is there to make OHKOs possible and Sturdy will save it if by mistake I get hit before fully buffed. Or Durant missing Entretainament and still be able to get at least +2 and not being useless.

Crawdaunt can afford to use Sash due to Adaptability alredy increasing STAB power to 200%, but could also use a Life Orb as both Atk and Spe will be at +6 and it has priority if it still not enough Spe. Because I suck at theorymoning Im sure there are stuff that will outspeed it and OHKO, so if its the case just go with sash.

Also could change both/any for Jolly if needed of course.

EDIT: maybe this could also work

Omastar @ Focus Sash
Timid, Swift Swim, 252 Spa/6 Spd/252 Spe
Shell Smash
Ice Beam
Earth Power
Protect

It works exactly like Cloyster but has better covarage with two 100 acc moves, just its abilities that dont help much unless a Drizzle user comes out second. Both fear priority or stuff that bypasses Protect, but hey, if not disturbed its a clean sweep.

Barbacle @ Focus Sash
Adamant, Tough Claws, 252 Atk/4 Spd/252 Spe
Shell Smash
Dragon Claw
Earthquake
Protect

Also works like Cloyster (no priority and -6 defenses) but like Omastar it has better covarage with two 100 acc moves, just cant touch Togekiss and not effective against Whimsicott and Skarmory. EQ doesnt get use of the ability but I dont think it really needs. Its the second fastest shell smash user, just after Cloyster (and barely).

Altaria @ Altarianite
Adamant, Natural Cure, 242 Atk/4 Spd/252 Spe
Dragon Dance
Dragon Claw
Earthquake
Protect

Similar to other DD users like Salamence, Garchomp and Dragonite but with better defensive typing and good bulk. Has same problems as Barbacle on foes but can probably stomach a few priority moves (Cloyster dies on second hit always). What makes it a little better is the option to switch it out to cure status, and because of its bulk and typing it can switch back on more ocasions.

/EDIT

So I want to get some advice from which would be better for Durant + Drapion team, and anything that could be changed on EVs side, maybe a bit less Atk on Crawdaunt to not being OHKOed by something, as it doesnt have the -6 defenses drawback of shell smash and decent Def.

 

[softboiled]

Why not Return on MAlt over Dragon Claw? Also, I haven't gotten around to testing it yet, but I think a mono-attacking Altaria similar to Gen 5 SubDD Dragonite would work well in the Maison paired with Durant.

 

[GG Unit]

Top 25 reasons Cloyster is strictly better than anything with Dragon Dance/Shell Smash/Quiver Dance: Infernape 4, Weavile 4, Shiftry 4, Froslass 4, Durant 4, Cryogonal 4, Bisharp 4, Accelgor 4, Talonflame 3, Gliscor 4, Tyranitar 4, Garchomp 4, Entei 1, Skarmory, Shuckle, Golem, Gigalith, Magnezone, Steelix, Skarmory, Regirock, Carracosta, Carbink, Sawk, Donphan.

 

[softboiled]

MGyara might be good too. Due to Mold Breaker it doesn't care about Sturdy or Water Absorb.

 

[Shion SinX]

Why not Return on MAlt over Dragon Claw? Also, I haven't gotten around to testing it yet, but I think a mono-attacking Altaria similar to Gen 5 SubDD Dragonite would work well in the Maison paired with Durant.

Covarage reasons. I used an effectiveness calculator (from pokemonDB) to see the two moves with best covarage so the mon could have either dance or smash to go all the way to +6 on both Atk/Spa and Spe and have less chances of dying (bar priority). Fairy - Ground combination (Pixelated Return and Earthquake) wouldnt be very effective (not even neutral) on more threats than Dragon - Ground.

Fairy - Ground are not effective on charizard, moltres, crobat, skarmory, ho-oh and talonflame.

Dragon - Ground has no effect on togekiss and shedinja while being not very effective on skarmory and whimsicott only.

Top 25 reasons Cloyster is strictly better than anything with Dragon Dance/Shell Smash/Quiver Dance: Infernape 4, Weavile 4, Shiftry 4, Froslass 4, Durant 4, Cryogonal 4, Bisharp 4, Accelgor 4, Talonflame 3, Gliscor 4, Tyranitar 4, Garchomp 4, Entei 1, Skarmory, Shuckle, Golem, Gigalith, Magnezone, Steelix, Skarmory, Regirock, Carracosta, Carbink, Sawk, Donphan.

Omastar's Ice - Ground moves do not affect Shedinja, all other mons on maison are either weak or neutral to this combination (surskit is not in there and would be the only one to resist this combination).

I actually forgot about Quiver Dance increasing SPA and SPE, I will take a look on that.

MGyara might be good too. Due to Mold Breaker it doesn't care about Sturdy or Water Absorb.

Im not familiar with MGyarados sets, but looking solely on STABs (Water - Dark) it would have way more resisted mons: Poliwrath, Azumarill, Shiftry, Breloom, Sharpedo, Cacturne, Crawdaunt, Whimsicott, Hydreigon, Verizion, Keldeo, Chesnaught, Greninja.

 

[softboiled]

Of course, but this is offset by Return's significantly higher Base Power (132 vs. Dragon Claw's 80). For MGyara, resistances matter very little when you're at +6 with a base 155 Atk mon, plus no Pokémon are immune to Waterfall, and off the top of my head only Kingdra and Ludicolo quad-resist it.

EDIT: Also, while Omastar does have better coverage than Cloyster, it's threatened by many Sturdy Pokémon, such as Donphan, Golem, Magnezone and Sawk.

 

[Shion SinX]

Of course, but this is offset by Return's significantly higher Base Power (132 vs. Dragon Claw's 80). For MGyara, resistances matter very little when you're at +6 with a base 155 Atk mon, plus no Pokémon are immune to Waterfall, and off the top of my head only Kingdra and Ludicolo quad-resist it.

That's a interessing line of though, because then it opens my mind to MScizor also, which has a high base Atk and acess to swords dance and priority 80 power move (bullet punch, due to STAB and technician). But then the covarage would be Knock Off and because of his Spe it might not work well. Will have to take a look on damage calculator for BP on resists like charizard and moltres.

Then also take a look on damage comparison of 132 power return and dragon claw on those netral hits.

EDIT: yeah MScizor is a no-go. Charizard takes around 70% from +6 bullet punch while OHKOs back with either fire punch or heat wave.

A rock blast from +6 cloyster deals 720% to 850% lol. Icicle spear is 270~320% still.

 

[softboiled]

Assuming 252+ for Altaria,

252+ Atk Pixilate Altaria Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 111-132 (63.4 - 75.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(111, 112, 114, 115, 117, 118, 120, 120, 121, 123, 124, 126, 127, 129, 130, 132)

252+ Atk Altaria Dragon Claw vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 67-81 (38.2 - 46.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(67, 69, 69, 70, 72, 72, 73, 73, 75, 75, 76, 76, 78, 78, 79, 81)

One thing that should also be noted is that if we assume Altaria is at +6 (not unreasonable since you're using Durant), Pixilate Return OHKOes all Charizard, Moltres, Crobat and Talonflame sets, and has an 81.3% chance of OHKOing Skarmory4, while Dragon Claw will always 2HKO.

 

[Shion SinX]

And also

+6 252+ Atk Mega Altaria Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 238-281 (71.2 - 84.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+6 252+ Atk Megal Altaria Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 144-171 (43.1 - 51.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

This is the biggest threat it can hit along with whimsicott (bar togekiss that is a no-go), so it really hits harder than with dragon claw. Im pretty sure skarmory cant KO back in one round, so I will stick to that Return.

 

[GG Unit]

MGyara might be good too. Due to Mold Breaker it doesn't care about Sturdy or Water Absorb.

Top 25 reasons why Cloyster is strictly better than Mega Gyarados: Infernape 4, Weavile 4, Shiftry 4, Froslass 4, Durant 4, Cryogonal 4, Bisharp 4, Accelgor 4, Gliscor 4, Tyranitar 4, Garchomp 4, Entei 1, Raichu, Electrode, Zapdos, Ampharos, Manectric, Rapidash, Moltres, Magmortar, Heatran, Chandelure, Volcarona, Talonflame, and any lead that that grants you 3 or fewer turns of setup before using Explosion.

For anything else that uses a contact move to sweep, you can combine this list with the earlier one for what to look out for (in addition to the usual Brightpowder/Quick Claw/priority stuff)