Battle Maison Discussion & Records

Lumari

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That's a interessing line of though, because then it opens my mind to MScizor also, which has a high base Atk and acess to swords dance and priority 80 power move (bullet punch, due to STAB and technician). But then the covarage would be Knock Off and because of his Spe it might not work well. Will have to take a look on damage calculator for BP on resists like charizard and moltres.

Then also take a look on damage comparison of 132 power return and dragon claw on those netral hits.

EDIT: yeah MScizor is a no-go. Charizard takes around 70% from +6 bullet punch while OHKOs back with either fire punch or heat wave.

A rock blast from +6 cloyster deals 720% to 850% lol. Icicle spear is 270~320% still.
Assuming 252+ for Altaria,

252+ Atk Pixilate Altaria Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 111-132 (63.4 - 75.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(111, 112, 114, 115, 117, 118, 120, 120, 121, 123, 124, 126, 127, 129, 130, 132)

252+ Atk Altaria Dragon Claw vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 67-81 (38.2 - 46.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(67, 69, 69, 70, 72, 72, 73, 73, 75, 75, 76, 76, 78, 78, 79, 81)

One thing that should also be noted is that if we assume Altaria is at +6 (not unreasonable since you're using Durant), Pixilate Return OHKOes all Charizard, Moltres, Crobat and Talonflame sets, and has an 81.3% chance of OHKOing Skarmory4, while Dragon Claw will always 2HKO.
Heatran is gonna be a big problem if you're gonna use Altaria:
+6 252+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 201-237 (52 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
especially considering three out of four sets (including the scarf one) run Flash Cannon, which OHKOes max HP Altaria after sub recoil
Of course you're usually gonna have a sub up, but eeeh, this is a bit hit for your consistency. The main reason mono-Dragonite worked last gen was because there was nothing that quad resisted Dragon and you have to defeat literally everything (re. Drapion, the only thing that quad resists Dark is Scrafty, which has zero immediate power. Drapion was completely unviable last gen simply because Cobalion existed, just goes to show how much impact a quad resist has (granted, also because of Sacred Sword ignoring defense boosts, but Altaria isn't gonna have those anyway)
 
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Assuming 252+ for Altaria,

252+ Atk Altaria Dragon Claw vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 67-81 (38.2 - 46.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(67, 69, 69, 70, 72, 72, 73, 73, 75, 75, 76, 76, 78, 78, 79, 81)
Just noticed, there's no Mew on maison if the list on OP is updated.

Top 25 reasons why Cloyster is strictly better than Mega Gyarados: Infernape 4, Weavile 4, Shiftry 4, Froslass 4, Durant 4, Cryogonal 4, Bisharp 4, Accelgor 4, Gliscor 4, Tyranitar 4, Garchomp 4, Entei 1, Raichu, Electrode, Zapdos, Ampharos, Manectric, Rapidash, Moltres, Magmortar, Heatran, Chandelure, Volcarona, Talonflame, and any lead that that grants you 3 or fewer turns of setup before using Explosion.
I dont get it, a lot of those are OHKOed by +6 waterfall from MGyarados.

Heatran is gonna be a big problem if you're gonna use Altaria:
+6 252+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 201-237 (52 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
especially considering three out of four sets (including the scarf one) run Flash Cannon, which OHKOes max HP Altaria after sub recoil
Of course you're usually gonna have a sub up, but eeeh, this is a bit hit for your consistency. The main reason mono-Dragonite worked last gen was because there was nothing that quad resisted Dragon (re. Drapion, the only thing that quad resists Dark is Scrafty, which has zero immediate power. Drapion was completely unviable last gen simply because Cobalion existed, just goes to show how important a quad resist is (granted, also because of Sacred Sword ignoring defense boosts, but Altaria isn't gonna have those anyway)
In this case I dont have the option to sub as the set consists on DD and protect for setup fully and two attack moves to sweep. I liked this strat because even when resisted you probly can OHKO.

In heatran's case only heatran1 can survive an earthquake from MAltaria at +6 because of sash.
 

Lumari

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Just noticed, there's no Mew on maison if the list on OP is updated.


I dont get it, a lot of those are OHKOed by +6 waterfall from MGyarados.


In this case I dont have the option to sub as the set consists on DD and protect for setup fully and two attack moves to sweep. I liked this strat because even when resisted you probly can OHKO.

In heatran's case only heatran1 can survive an earthquake from MAltaria at +6 because of sash.
In that case you leave yourself wide open to a crit from that same Heatran, or Weavile, or a Quick Claw proc (e.g. Donphan's Fissure); there's quite a bit of hax that can end your streak so running either Sash or Sub is almost mandatory if you're running a Durant team, and Altaria can't run Sash. Those mons GG Unit listed earlier are mostly Sash users that can significantly trouble Gyarados (the others are Static/Flame Body users because unlike Cloyster Gyarados uses contact moves)
 
In that case you leave yourself wide open to a crit from that same Heatran, or Weavile, or a Quick Claw proc (e.g. Donphan's Fissure); there's quite a bit of hax that can end your streak so running either Sash or Sub is almost mandatory if you're running a Durant team, and Altaria can't run Sash. Those mons GG Unit listed earlier are mostly Sash users that can significantly trouble Gyarados (the others are Static/Flame Body users because unlike Cloyster Gyarados uses contact moves)
Now that makes sense. About heatran1, the only way to make it possible for MAltaria is to run 252 HP instead of 252 Spe and get down to 8~23% HP by a flash cannon, or death if crit.

edit:
164 HP EVs gives exactly 99.4% at maximum damage from 252+ SPA modest Heatran Flash Cannon non-crit.
 
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Here's a CharChomp team that got me to 60 in super doubles so far:

Charizard Y @ Megastone
Timid / Blaze / 252 sp atk/252 speed/6 hp
Heat Wave
Solar Beam
Dragon Pulse
Protect

Garchomp @ Lum Berry
Jolly / Sand Veil / 252 atk/252 speed/4 hp
Dragon Claw
Earthquake
Rock Slide
Protect

Hitmontop @ Sitrus Berry
Adamant / Intimidate / 252 hp/252 atk/6 speed
Close Combat
Helping Hand
Wide Guard
Fake Out

Venusaur @ Wide Lens
Modest / Chlorophyll / 252 sp atk/180 hp /76 speed
Giga Drain
Sludge Bomb
Sleep Powder
Protect

I hope folks here won't mind if I ask for an informal critique going forward? Any issues with itemization or potential enemy team comps I may not be able to handle?
I used pretty much the same starting two in my Doubles streak and it worked very well. Garchomp does very much enjoy having a Life Orb in order to net some important KOs such as Flash Fire Entei.
 
OMG I got screwed hard! At battle 98 found a Muk exploding on very first turn and I had no time to setup as next comes a Darmanitan with chice scarf locked into flare blitz, KOing both Durant and Drapion. Good thing it almost died for recoil and Rock Blast did hit and KOed it. Next comes a... surprise, if you want to know watch the replay. :(

95UG WWWW WWXC LNJN
 
If you're just looking for raw power and speed instead of the obvious advantage of mauling Sturdy/Sash users (which is why Cloyster is best choice), why not just go DD Mega Salamence? Return and Earthquake at +2 OHKOs anything in the Maison aside from Sturdy/Sash, and even with 0 Speed EVs you outspeed all but the Scarfed Aerodactyl at +2.

I don't think it 's the BEST idea, but if you don't even have to go past +2 it'd save time.

As an aside, it's too bad Scizor has access to Vacuum Wave instead of Mach Punch. Hrum, Hitmonchan gets Bullet and Mach, has Iron Fist, has access to Bulk Up...

...Naw, Cloyster is still best, aside from priority. No Poke is perfect.
 
I dont really care if I need to go all the way to +6, one by one. Afterall the other piece of the team is Drapion who goes all the way to +6 on all 7 (21 uses plus some subs and protects). I just wanted to use something different that works. But I guess I cant go much farther without sacrificing too much. They are the most used for a reason (those DD dragons).
 
If you're just looking for raw power and speed instead of the obvious advantage of mauling Sturdy/Sash users (which is why Cloyster is best choice), why not just go DD Mega Salamence? Return and Earthquake at +2 OHKOs anything in the Maison aside from Sturdy/Sash, and even with 0 Speed EVs you outspeed all but the Scarfed Aerodactyl at +2.

I don't think it 's the BEST idea, but if you don't even have to go past +2 it'd save time.

As an aside, it's too bad Scizor has access to Vacuum Wave instead of Mach Punch. Hrum, Hitmonchan gets Bullet and Mach, has Iron Fist, has access to Bulk Up...

...Naw, Cloyster is still best, aside from priority. No Poke is perfect.
Even then, raw power and speed is pretty relative because after 2 turns of boosting, +4 Cloyster will outspeed +2 Mence and +4 Icicle Spear hits harder than +2 Return.

If you have an indefinite amount of time to set up, Drapion beats everything. If you only have a handful of turns, Cloyster beats the most things. Glalie's in between the two in that it beats 99.9% of what Drapion beats when fully set up if you pay attention to its boosts and can take on nearly as many things as Cloyster if only given a handful of free turns.

Also having trouble imagining how a first turn Muk Explosion followed by Darmanitan leads to a loss. You have to switch out Durant regardless and you can just bring it back to use Entrainment after Darmaitan KOs whatever you happened to switch in.
 
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OMG I got screwed hard! At battle 98 found a Muk exploding on very first turn and I had no time to setup as next comes a Darmanitan with chice scarf locked into flare blitz, KOing both Durant and Drapion. Good thing it almost died for recoil and Rock Blast did hit and KOed it. Next comes a... surprise, if you want to know watch the replay. :(

95UG WWWW WWXC LNJN
Muk tried to fuck you, but then that is just his purpose in life it seems.
 
Also having trouble imagining how a first turn Muk Explosion followed by Darmanitan leads to a loss. You have to switch out Durant regardless and you can just bring it back to use Entrainment after Darmaitan KOs whatever you happened to switch in.
Muk tried to fuck you, but then that is just his purpose in life it seems.
Well I was scared to sending Drapion or Cloyster and one of them dying (or breaking Cloyster sash for free), then going back to Durant and it dying too, because Darmanitan had scarf and hes EV'ed on Atk and Spe. If i had to just switch Durant out and in again it would take a flare blitz for free and die for sure.
 
Turn 2: Darmanitan comes out.
Turn 3: switch to Cloyster, Flare Blitz does damage
Turn 4: Flare Blitz KOs Cloyster, Durant comes in
Turn 5: Scarf Durant is faster than Scarf Darmanitan and uses Entrainment before dying.
Turn 6-40ish: Acupressure/Protect etc
 
Yeah... I didnt knew if scarfed Durant was faster than scarfed Darmanitan, that was my problem. If it ever happens again I will remember. I really need to look the speed tier while playing this thing.
 
Yeah... I didnt knew if scarfed Durant was faster than scarfed Darmanitan, that was my problem. If it ever happens again I will remember. I really need to look the speed tier while playing this thing.
It doesn't look like it matters much. Either way, it would've been a 1-0 anyways. You did well, even under the circumstances.
 

cant say

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So after some light theorymoning on irc the other night, I decided I wanted to try Mimic Mega Pidgeot + Sheer Cold Articuno in doubles. Mostly because I want to use the flawless Articuno I SRd, and it sounds kinda fun. We didn't really finish the whole idea so I'm looking for some good backups. Obviously rock types shut me down (especially sturdy ones) so something to resist those would be good. I was thinking Metagross since it also resists ice moves thrown at Pidgeot, and turskain suggested Gastrodon as it handles rocks and also electric types (and is just a good mon). So anyway here's some rough ideas:


Pidgeot @ Pidgeotite
Ability: Keen Eye (No Guard)
Timid Nature
4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe (or should I use more bulk since Sheer Cold is the main spam move?)
- Hurricane
- Heat Wave
- Protect
- Mimic


Articuno @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Pressure
Timid Nature
252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe (I haven't had a chance to consult the speed tiers list, the speed may be able to be dropped for more bulk or even SpA?)
- Sheer Cold
- U-turn
- Ice Beam
- ??? (what else could be run?)


Metagross @ Life Orb? (open to suggestion)
Ability: Clear Body
Jolly Nature
4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
- Iron Head
- Bullet Punch
- Ice Punch
- Thunder Punch / Earthquake / Protect / Power-Up Punch


Gastrodon @ Expert Belt / Sitrus Berry / [Grass Resist] Berry
Ability: Storm Drain
Modest Nature (maybe bold or something else?)
252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA (or physically defensive for bold or whatever)
- Scald
- Earth Power
- Ice Beam / Ice Wind
- Protect


So yeah, basically try and Mimic Sheer Cold and go to town on the opposing team. Backups pretty much just serve to deal with rocks and sturdy types that stop the strategy... If anyone has any ideas then post them!
 
It doesn't look like it matters much. Either way, it would've been a 1-0 anyways. You did well, even under the circumstances.
It matters because it was a 1-2 that only turned into a 1-0 because the 3rd Pokemon happened to be one of maybe 10 you'll see after battle 40 that an unboosted, weakened Cloyster can KO without taking any damage. If you won because your last Pokemon used Ice Beam and froze a Pokemon that was going to KO you otherwise, you'd definitely say that mattered even though it involved less luck than the former scenario.

Even after chalking up attacking Darmanitan rather than using Shell Smash up to not knowing how fast it is, I'm positive there's no reason to use Rock Blast instead of Icicle Spear on an opponent that's at less than 50% health and doesn't 4x resist Ice.
 
Maybe use Blizzard on Articuno to also abuse MPidgeot no guard? Then a sub o protect on last slot.

It matters because it was a 1-2 that only turned into a 1-0 because the 3rd Pokemon happened to be one of maybe 10 you'll see after battle 40 that an unboosted, weakened Cloyster can KO without taking any damage. If you won because your last Pokemon used Ice Beam and froze a Pokemon that was going to KO you otherwise, you'd definitely say that mattered even though it involved less luck than the former scenario.

Even after chalking up attacking Darmanitan rather than using Shell Smash up to not knowing how fast it is, I'm positive there's no reason to use Rock Blast instead of Icicle Spear on an opponent that's at less than 50% health and doesn't 4x resist Ice.
Yup, I was VERY lucky to face something that could be KOed by a +0 as 3rd, but in 110 battles Rock Blast missed once. Didnt used it too much though, about 5 or 6 times (Dewgong, Regice, Staraptor for lulz). Tempted to change it for Surf after reading how many threats it can OHKO that would need two or three attacks otherwise. Curse Regirock did that, and there were something else that used curse four times while I setuped Cloyster, needed like 5 attacks to KO it, but was the lead so it was truanted, I just used protect/icicle spear until it was dead.
 
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Jumpman16

np: Michael Jackson - "Mon in the Mirror" (DW mix)
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Ok, have a logic problem for you all.

Greninja@Life Orb: Surf/Dark Pulse/Ice Beam/x (Timid, Protean, 4HP/252Spa/252Spe)
Salamence@ite: Return/DD/Roost/y
z


Fill in x, y and z, and show your work. Full marks for the best answer, complete with creative Effort Values (especially on Salamence).

Also,

88.JPG

(pic may be upside down for some weird reason) I'm not going to be posting "every day or two" like I said because that's tiresome and who cares. This weekend was full of more Valentine's day stuff with/for the gf than I anticipated. Also got the inspiration to record this:

Aster's Epitaph

Believe it or not I love piano more than I love pokemon. It's close, but yeah.
 
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Fireburn

BARN ALL
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So after some light theorymoning on irc the other night, I decided I wanted to try Mimic Mega Pidgeot + Sheer Cold Articuno in doubles. Mostly because I want to use the flawless Articuno I SRd, and it sounds kinda fun. We didn't really finish the whole idea so I'm looking for some good backups. Obviously rock types shut me down (especially sturdy ones) so something to resist those would be good. I was thinking Metagross since it also resists ice moves thrown at Pidgeot, and turskain suggested Gastrodon as it handles rocks and also electric types (and is just a good mon). So anyway here's some rough ideas:


Pidgeot @ Pidgeotite
Ability: Keen Eye (No Guard)
Timid Nature
4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe (or should I use more bulk since Sheer Cold is the main spam move?)
- Hurricane
- Heat Wave
- Protect
- Mimic


Articuno @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Pressure
Timid Nature
252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe (I haven't had a chance to consult the speed tiers list, the speed may be able to be dropped for more bulk or even SpA?)
- Sheer Cold
- U-turn
- Ice Beam
- ??? (what else could be run?)


Metagross @ Life Orb? (open to suggestion)
Ability: Clear Body
Jolly Nature
4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
- Iron Head
- Bullet Punch
- Ice Punch
- Thunder Punch / Earthquake / Protect / Power-Up Punch


Gastrodon @ Expert Belt / Sitrus Berry / [Grass Resist] Berry
Ability: Storm Drain
Modest Nature (maybe bold or something else?)
252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA (or physically defensive for bold or whatever)
- Scald
- Earth Power
- Ice Beam / Ice Wind
- Protect


So yeah, basically try and Mimic Sheer Cold and go to town on the opposing team. Backups pretty much just serve to deal with rocks and sturdy types that stop the strategy... If anyone has any ideas then post them!
You could consider Machamp or Golurk, they deal with Rock-types and also have No Guard to keep the strategy going in case one of your birds dies.

Just an idea cuz this looks hilarious lol
 

cant say

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Maybe use Blizzard on Articuno to also abuse MPidgeot no guard? Then a sub o protect on last slot.
You could consider Machamp or Golurk, they deal with Rock-types and also have No Guard to keep the strategy going in case one of your birds dies.

Just an idea cuz this looks hilarious lol
No Guard doesn't work that way, it only gives perfect accuracy to the Pokemon with the ability, not its partners (unless they've changed it in gen VI). Also Shion SinX, since Articuno is going to be Choiced (at least for now) running Protect / Sub isn't an option. I'm thinking Tailwind since it's worked for Choice Talonflame as a 'no other options fourth move'
 
Ok, have a logic problem for you all.

Greninja@Life Orb: Surf/Dark Pulse/Ice Beam/x (Timid, Protean, 4HP/252Spa/252Spe)
Salamence@ite: Return/DD/Roost/y
z


Fill in x, y and z, and show your work. Full marks for the best answer, complete with creative Effort Values (especially on Salamence).

Also,

View attachment 35921

(pic may be upside down for some weird reason) I'm not going to be posting "every day or two" like I said because that's tiresome and who cares. This weekend was full of more Valentine's day stuff with/for the gf than I anticipated. Also got the inspiration to record this:

Aster's Epitaph

Believe it or not I love piano more than I love pokemon. It's close, but yeah.
My best attempt at this involves changing a little more than just the variables, with x= Spikes (with Sash on Greninja), z= Scarf Durant and y being a DD-Return-Protect-Sub/EQ/Roost Mega Mence that can have an easier time with Spikes nullifying Sash/Sturdy as long as Greninja plays more like a suicide spiker that can also KO many Explosion users before bowing out.

With a more conventional team, leads like Crobat and Zebstrika would require a status absorber. Looking at the very thin pool of those, Chansey doesn't do well against strong Rock moves as you said, Gliscor would likely place too much of an Ice-resisting burden on Greninja, and Suicune would likely be too redundant with Greninja. Looking at these troublesome areas, it seems like that thanks to Fairy types, there hasn't been a proper replacement for something like ScarfChomp in past gens, which could switch in on a lot of the 110+ base speed mons and take care of them without majorly losing momentum.

This is where my creativity hits a brick wall in Singles; you pretty much have to use a lead that hits hard enough to preemptively KO stuff like a CB Tyrantrum, but you also have to switch in against all the bulky stuff that can status your lead and basically put you in a 2-on-3 situation. With those constraints, there's not too much left besides MKhan-Gliscor and Dragon-Suicune.
 
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No Guard doesn't work that way, it only gives perfect accuracy to the Pokemon with the ability, not its partners (unless they've changed it in gen VI). Also Shion SinX, since Articuno is going to be Choiced (at least for now) running Protect / Sub isn't an option. I'm thinking Tailwind since it's worked for Choice Talonflame as a 'no other options fourth move'
This only confirms that I suck at this game. I missinterpreted the strat because I though No Guard affected all mons on field. So after your first phase I got it, you use scarfed Articuno to go first even if it misses (and most likely will) so MPidgeot can go AFTER and Mimic it with 100 acc while still outspeeding stuff (for some reason I didnt noticed the Articuno item before).
 
Was wondering what evs people think would be best for
Blaziken@leftovers
Jolly/speed boost
Protect
Swords Dance
Substitute
Baton Pass.
Would it be 252 speed/252 hp/4def?
It's for Durant entrainment gimmick
 
I tried using this on maison as lead, got Taunted under sub (I though it stopped but it doesnt) and struggled to death. You really need at least one attack, and I would choose Flare Blitz instead of Sub (as you need the other three to make it work).

Havent tried with Durant though. Not as rarely as I would like Durant cant pass Truant to the foe (miss by bright powder or protect/detect) or the foe kills itself and you have no time to setup, so you will be down to one sweeper which will not have +6/+6 and a useless mon, Blaziken.
 

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