np: ORAS OU Suspect Process, Round 2 - Spider Man [Metagrossite remains OU]

[Sucker Lunch]

Oh lawd, I just got reqs and I vote BAN on Meta fucker.

Why? Because there is no reason not to use this Arnold Schwarzenegger if you're running offense. Massive Attack, Stealth Rock Resistant, Base 110 Speed, Great Defenses (Adamant Lando-T can't cleanly OHKO MegaMeta without rocks), Murders fairies, can switch in to latios/latias, 2HKO's Rotom-W, has a variety of different sets, lando-t can't switch-in, strong priority, stat's can't be lowered on the first turn. The only thing meta can't do is reliably boost. But meteor mash allows him to attack, and potentially boost, at the same damn time. So it's not like this thing is stuck with Tough Claws + Base. Ugh, at least shit like Zard X has a stealth rock weakness.

And we all know it's automatic GGs if Meta gets a boost.

But most importantly, I'm tired of Pinsir being a housewaifu for Mega Metagross.
Pinsir is stuck cleaning the home, cooking dinner, and taking care of the beldums while Metagross is out destroying the tier.

Pinsir: "Sweetheart, can I sweep in OU?"
Mega Metagross: "Nope. You know that sweeping outside the home is for me and diancie only."
Pinsir: "B-But I have priority quick attack!"
Mega Metagross: "SAY THAT AGAIN AND I'LL BULLET PUNCH YOU"
Pinsir: "Sweetie please!
Mega Metagross: "GET YOUR ASS BACK INSIDE BL!"

^^^
You can insert a ton of offensive megas inside of Pinsir's position ;~;.
How long are we going to allow this abusive mon to rule the tier?

Yeah, this shit has counters like slowbro and hippowdon. But none of these things are seen on offense (which metagross destroys).

Oh shit, I just realized I got way off topic.
And nothing I just said makes sense.
Sorry guyz, I sort of wrote this while waiting for the lag to stop on showdown.

Anywho, mono-grass on OU ladder does not work ;~;.

BAN METAGROSSITE.

 

[RichieTheGarchomp]

Oh lawd, I just got reqs and I vote BAN on this fucker.

Why? Because there is no reason not to use this Arnold Schwarzenegger if you're running offense. Massive Attack, Stealth Rock Resistant, Base 110 Speed, Great Defenses (Adamant Lando-T can't cleanly OHKO MegaMeta without rocks), Murders fairies, can switch in to latios/latias, 2HKO's Rotom-W, has a variety of different sets, lando-t can't switch-in, strong priority, stat's can't be lowered on the first turn. The only thing meta can't do is reliably boost. But meteor mash allows him to attack, and potentially boost, at the same damn time. So it's not like this thing is stuck with Tough Claws + Base. Ugh, at least shit like Zard X has a stealth rock weakness.

And we all know it's automatic GGs if Meta gets a boost.

But most importantly, I'm tired of Pinsir being a housewaifu for Mega Metagross.
Pinsir is stuck cleaning the home, cooking dinner, and taking care of the beldums while Metagross is out destroying the tier.

Pinsir: "Sweetheart, can I sweep in OU?"
Mega Metagross: "Nope. You know that sweeping outside the home is for me and diancie only."
Pinsir: "B-But I have priority quick attack!"
Mega Metagross: "SAY THAT AGAIN AND I'LL BULLET PUNCH YOU"
Pinsir: "Sweetie please!
Mega Metagross: "GET YOUR ASS BACK INSIDE BL!"

^^^
You can insert a ton of offensive megas inside of Pinsir's position ;~;.
How long are we going to allow this abusive mon to rule the tier?

Yeah, this shit has counters like slowbro and hippowdon. But none of these things are seen on offense (which metagross destroys).

Oh shit, I just realized I got way off topic.
And nothing I just said makes sense.
Sorry guyz, I sort of wrote this while waiting for the lag to stop on showdown.

Anywho, mono-grass on OU ladder does not work ;~;.

BAN METAGROSSITE

Before I go on because I'm a queer and I look at every anti ban sentence with my eyebrow raised, I just want to start off by saying everything you say is true up to your first paragraph.

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Zen Headbutt vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 129-153 (42.5 - 50.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Rotom-W can switch in, WoW, and get out. Albeit shaky, it is effective. However, Rotom W isnt switching into MMeta often.

Meteor Mash has a like 20% chance to boost Attack? Don't count on that like its your SD.

Why are you treating this guy like he outspeeds the whole meta? If he puts on a boosting move, he misses out on very important coverage, making him weak to basically every Bulky Water, Hippo, MMan, Lando T, etc.

Pinsir is still very effective, but you are saying that its MMeta's fault that Pinsir is seeing less usage. With the combination of all of the base 110's, Pinsirs once good speed tier is gone like that. Also, faster threats have also been more common, ex MMan, MLop (Sub Sets, ofc) DD mons, etc. Pinsir can also run other pokemon to help with these pokemon, like Lando T and others.

Why Bullet Punch him? Go for the power!

He does not rule the tier. He isnt impossible to take out, has SO many common checks, he has answers on every playstyle, etc.

I hate when people say he has no answers on Offense. He has one of the most imo. TFlame, Bish, Lando T, MMan, and others.

Mono grass :3

 

[Cataclyptic]

You know that you've been away from smogon too long when you see this:

I hate when people say he has no answers on Offense. He has one of the most imo. TFlame, Bish, Lando T, MMan, and others.

And genuinely believe for a split second he's proposing Mega Man as a counter to mega metagross. Although the blue bomber vs megagross would be kind of cool to see, I'll leave that portion to death battle and theorymonning.

Still on the fence for this suspect since I have literally no time to play the suspect ladder, but so far my opinion leans towards a ban. Mega metagross has a very diverse movepool boosted by tough claws which allows it to pick and choose what counters it from what the arguments I've read tell me. Additionally I have come to believe that due to its insane bulk, it doesn't need much, if any, investment to survive hits that would take down most sweepers.

Revenge killing appears to be the best way to go to take down this thing, but I veiw that as faulty due to being able to pick its checks and counter while letting its other five teammates deal witht he rest. From what I understand, 1v1 megagross will win against nearly anything save roost mega scizor.

All and all, my opinion probably isn't worth jack since not only have I not played in a long time but I currently lean towards pro ban but not final. Feel free to reply to me since megagross is one of my favorite megas and I'd like to hear some convincing arguments (Although I've seen some pretty good ones for either case already).

 

[Jaguar360]

You know that you've been away from smogon too long when you see this:



And genuinely believe for a split second he's proposing Mega Man as a counter to mega metagross. Although the blue bomber vs megagross would be kind of cool to see, I'll leave that portion to death battle and theorymonning.

Still on the fence for this suspect since I have literally no time to play the suspect ladder, but so far my opinion leans towards a ban. Mega metagross has a very diverse movepool boosted by tough claws which allows it to pick and choose what counters it from what the arguments I've read tell me. Additionally I have come to believe that due to its insane bulk, it doesn't need much, if any, investment to survive hits that would take down most sweepers.

Revenge killing appears to be the best way to go to take down this thing, but I veiw that as faulty due to being able to pick its checks and counter while letting its other five teammates deal witht he rest. From what I understand, 1v1 megagross will win against nearly anything save roost mega scizor.

All and all, my opinion probably isn't worth jack since not only have I not played in a long time but I currently lean towards pro ban but not final. Feel free to reply to me since megagross is one of my favorite megas and I'd like to hear some convincing arguments (Although I've seen some pretty good ones for either case already).

He never said it was a counter; it's an offensive check. Most offensive answers to things can't switch in 100% of the time, but as long as they can switch in to a variety of moves, it's usually okay. Megaman can switch into Meteor Mash, Ice Punch or Grass Knot multiple times and can either OHKO with Flamethrower/Overheat or use Volt Switch for momentum.

I'm also sick of people saying that Mega Metagross doesn't have counters when I made a list of counters and checks right here that has yet to be disputed. Yes, there are few true answers that fit on offensive teams, but all you need are about 2 offensive checks and decent prediction skills. A simple ScarfTran or Mega Manectric + Lando-T core works wonders against Mega Metagross for instance. Scizor and Celebi work on some offensive teams as well. The answers to Mega Metagross are here and all of them are viable in OU. You just have to look for them and play smartly.

I'm also completely on the anti-ban side now and may describe my reasonings in detail later on.

 

[Stellar]

OK bros, I finally got reqs so I thought I'd at least post my thoughts on the suspect metagame.
For reference, here is the incredibly stylish team that I used. It is crappy but fits my playstyle.
I'm about eight points away from #1, but I'm really tired of battling.

Dominant PKMN

Diancie lost one of its best checks, so obviously it would rise in usage. What astounded me was the sheer number of Diancie + Magnezone pairings that I ran into on the ladder. No one ever managed to trap my Scizor, but it definitely forced me to play cautiously and utilize a lot of double switches. As many others have said, Diancie is likely the next on the chopping block — all of its "counters" are relatively easy to trap. The most common set I ran into was Protect + 3 Attacks (no HP Fire) which was usually taken out by Volt Switch + Thunderbolt from Raikou. I probably would have been screwed by Rock Polish.

Latias is another mega who lost its primary check. I ran into a couple HP Fire ones which made battles extremely tricky. I usually had to force them out with Scizor, catch them on the switch with Garchomp's Dragon Tail, or burn them on the switch and then get into a CM war with Suicune. While Latias was threatening to my team, and I believe it will be a force to be reckoned with if Metagross gets banned, it is checked relatively easily by things like Bisharp, Tyranitar, and physical Scarfers.

Landorus didn't really gain much from Metagross's absence aside from losing a post-mega check, but it was still one of the most consistently threatening Pokémon I encountered. I had to play it smart and utilize recoil from Knock Off / HP Ice / SR to get it into 100% KO range for Raikou. Well... either that or hope my Suicune was healthy enough to survive an Earth Power. I definitely expect Landorus usage to rise moving forward or at least steal some of the usage from Landorus-T.

Keldeo lost a check, so Specs is a lot more appealing than it was in the past. The increased popularity of Diancie also brings with it more opportunities for Keldeo to scare shit out and spam Hydro Pump/Scald. I didn't really have many ways to beat Keldeo on my team. I had to absolutely keep Raikou alive to handle Specs, but even then I couldn't switch it in directly. Without Defense EVs, Suicune was completely useless outside of random burns. The most threatening set I ran into was definitely SubCM. I had to catch it on the switch with Knock Off to remove Leftovers and constantly force it out with smart switches and Raikou.

Other Observations
Bulky SR Garchomp is everywhere. Rocky Helmet + Rough Skin helps check so many Pokémon (Bisharp most notably) — it's ridiculous. Almost every one that I ran into had Fire Blast in the last slot, but with Xatu on my team I didn't really need to worry about Ferrothorn or Forretress, so I was safe to use Toxic for things like Rotom-W, Hippowdon, etc.

Mega Sableye is nowhere to be seen. This is to be expected with Mega Diancie being the #1 threat. I think Tele mentioned the weird balance of power between Metagross/Diancie/Sableye and it definitely holds up to scrutiny. Metagross keeps Diancie in check, and Diancie in turn keeps Sableye in check.

I made my team with Mega Metagross in mind, which explains the huge number of Rocky Helmets and Defense EVs. Even without Mega Metagross in the picture, max Defense Mega Scizor was pretty much always the star of the show. Being able to set up vs all Excadrill (LO EQ does about 46% max), Conkeldurr (Drain Punch does about 25%), Bisharp, Azumarill, Gliscor, and Mega Lopunny means you will often find multiple set-up opportunities in a match. I advise everyone to try the set out even if Mega Metagross gets the axe.

Mega Gardevoir is sorta back to the level of effectiveness it had in XY. I wouldn't necessarily say it's great, but it's definitely more threatening with Metagross out of the picture. I think a set with WoW would be "anti-metagame" at the moment and would work really well.

Also I saw like one Heatran total which completely blows my mind.

 

[WhiteQueen]

Just got reqs after playing about 60 games. Even with Metagross, Fairy types are a pain in the ass to deal with, let alone without it. There's no reason to ban a Pokemon that can't sweep without the proper support and can keep powerful fairies from running rampant. Unlike many of the previous suspects, there are tons of BL and OU Pokemon capable of countering or checking Metagross. See my previous post:

Hide

http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...ound-2-spider-man.3529407/page-5#post-6040929

My verdict: the OU metagame is healthier and a lot more fun to play with Metagross in it than without it.

 

[Everstoned321]

Ok, so after finally achieving the reqs to vote, I think I'm prepared to voice my opinion on this suspect.

First, I would like to clarify that I do not believe metagross is "broken" (this doesn't really mean that it shouldn't be banned, but I will get to that later). There have been numerous checks and counters listed throughout this thread, many of which are actual OU viable mons, so I won't continue to flood the thread with repeated information. That being said, I do want to dissect metagross to understand whether his stats are actually overbearingly good or just good.

First, let's look at his offensive stats. Metagross is a relatively powerful mega Stat-wise and this power is further boosted by tough claws, giving him an effective LO boost to all of his contact moves. This makes him a very powerful and formidable opponent, but his offensive stats are balanced by relatively weak STABs and coverage moves. To give you an idea of damage output, here are Metagross' STAB moves compared to another strong mega evolution, MLopunny:

Hide

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 222-262 (62.1 - 73.3%)
252 Atk Mega Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 229-271 (64.1 - 75.9%)

The garchomp is arbitrary, but the point was to show the relative offensive output that MMetagross has. As you can see, its output is actually slightly lower than MLopunny, although neither are by any means slouches when it comes to power. Combine this with the fact that MMetagross has no reliable setup moves outside of Hone Claws, and you begin to see how limited this thing is in terms of sweeping potential. It certainly struggles to break through stall without reliable team support. And it is always limited in terms of what coverage moves it uses, this is not a case like Greninja's where every single move was a coverage move and equally viable. That puts MMetagross in the same category as most powerhouses in the tier in terms of pure offensive ability.

However, I don't think anyone in this thread thinks that MMetagross is unwallable, but moreso that it puts a strain on Offensive and balanced teams by being so difficult to check with its stellar defenses and good speed. That being said, one must look at the situation realistically. Having better defenses than Skarmory is somewhat irrelevant when you consider it will never invest in them (besides some Agility sets, which have their own flaws in terms of coverage etc.) and that it has no recovery at all, not even leftovers access. It is easy to wear down metagross and it's defenses only stand to prevent some OHKOs, not to make this thing an unbreakable beast. Offense can easily wear this thing down with constant attacks (keeping in mind MMeta does not OHKO a majority of the meta, it 2HKOs), entry hazards, and burns, as well as paralysis to stop it in its tracks against an offensive team. If one is intent on building an offensive team, you simply must prepare for MMetagross like you would any top tier threat, if you build a team that is weak to it that is your own fault. Another thing that I think hasn't been mentioned enough in this thread is that MMeta's fantastic speed stat only kicks in the turn after it Mevos. This isn't like MBeedrill, MLopunny, or MDiancie; you have no room for protect/fake out to ensure a safe Mevo. That means that it is vulnurable to attacks from a much larger portion of the game the moment it hits the field, which can be exploited with proper preparation and good decision making. This is on top of the fact that 110 speed can easily be outmatched by a scarfer or simply a faster mon, so again, there are many options to check it that are not unconventional or overly specialized.

All that being said, MMetagross is undoubtedly one of the best Megas in the OU tier, probably THE best. While I can't say that it is inherently broken for reasons I listed above, it is very possible that it is an overcentralizing force to the metagame and therefore should be banned. That is why I decided to play on the suspect ladder first, to get a better understanding of the metagame without MMetagross. That is honestly where my decision was finalized. The Gross-less meta that I played through was much less diverse than I expected it to be. I saw a plethora of heatrans and scizors running around, presumably to check the rampant use of things like MDiancie and MAltaria. Everyone whining that MMetagross was causing an abnormal spike in the usage of Landorus-T can have a seat, because there were just as many Lando's on the suspect ladder. This is because, like most of MMeta's checks, it is incredibly useful in the metagame and does not see usage specifically to stop Gross. I did not see any previously unviable mons become more useful like when Aegislash was banned, I only saw previously viable mons become more viable when their best check was removed.

With the understanding that MMetagross is not broken in any traditional sense, as well as seeing no visible improvement in the metagame after its removal, I have no other choice but to vote NO BAN on metagrossite.

 

[Sucker Lunch]

Long scholarly post.

The reason you didn't seen an improvement is because the meta is so garbage right now.
Yeah, metagross was gone, that's like getting the oil changed in a shitty car. You still have a bunch of other junk you need to fix before you see a major improvement. Diancie and Metagross (possibly Sableye) are the mons that should be removed from the ladder.

The metagross suspect ladder only showed me that Diancie can take advantage of the tier when Metagross is gone. Not very surprising.

I really wish this test handled Diancie and Meta at once.
Sableye i'm still on the fence about.

 

[Everstoned321]

The reason you didn't seen an improvement is because the meta is so garbage right now.

Yea well, you know, thats just, like, uh, your opinion, man. :P

In all seriousness though, I enjoy the post-Greninja metagame and don't see a need for MMetagross to go. I'm not gonna ban something that isn't broken/overcentralizing, so that I can ban other things that aren't broken/overcentralizing, so that I can play XY OU again. But I guess that's just my opinion as well. I feel like you are as convinced of your stance as I am of mine, so I'm not going to argue with you.

 

[Sucker Lunch]

Yea well, you know, thats just, like, uh, your opinion, man. :P

In all seriousness though, I enjoy the post-Greninja metagame and don't see a need for MMetagross to go. I'm not gonna ban something that isn't broken/overcentralizing, so that I can ban other things that aren't broken/overcentralizing, so that I can play XY OU again. But I guess that's just my opinion as well. I feel like you are as convinced of your stance as I am of mine, so I'm not going to argue with you.

Honestly, I don't really care what happens to the meta. I'll still play mons because I like the game, and I'll adapt. I just wanted to point out that you shouldn't expect to see a huge improvement because Mega Metagross is only a part of the problem. Treating an illness isn't the same as curing it.

 

[Blvdman]

Primal Groudon would love to have MegaGross as a playmate.

Issues with Mgross:

1 - Superb Base Stats, 80|145|150|105|110|110| Mgross does not go down without a fight and is able to hit very hard. It's base 110 speed is also a another real issue, that speed tier means that anything wanted to beat mgross needs faster than or run scarf. its 150 Def an 110 Sp.D along with a pretty good 80 hp means mgross is not going to be getting 1 shotted by the average pokemon.

2 - Superb MovePool, Meteor Mash| Zen Headbutt| Hammer Arm | Grass Knot/IcePunch is the most effective moveset for Mgross, it covers a huge percentage of pokemon in the ou metagame. Many walls and tanks are easily 2HKO'd.

3 - Plenty of Checks, MGross has many checks, simply put a choice scarf on a pokemon with an Super effective move to Mgross and it becomes a check, BUT those checks must use a Fire, Ground, or Dark moves. Now the issue is in a metagame where virtually everything flies or has levitate, ground moves becomes a gamble. In a metagame where fairies especially Clefable are often found, dark types struggle. In a metagame where very few fire types are found most of them can not outspeed Mgross mega.

4 - Lack of None Mega Walls, we lack pokemon that can come in on Mgross take all its abuse and still bring a game changing presence to a match. Mega Scizor is a very good Mgross wall, but being forced to use a Mega slot to counter another Mega doesn't sit well with me. Skarmory and Porygon2 are good walls against Mgross. Although porygon2 has a 98.8% of being 2HKO if it takes stealth rocks damage and it gets 2 hit if it has taken previous damage. Mgross also forces some players to rely on slightly unreliable and gimmicky pokemon such as Tangrowth, who defensively can hold its own and with EQ can slowly dent Mgross.

5 - Awesome Teammates - A knowledgeable Mgross player knows how to play to the strengths of Mgross and exploit its obvious weaknesses. Keldeo is a great partner for Mgross, it counters its dark and fire weakness and dual stab enables it to use water moves vs fires or fighting moves vs darks. Rotom-W is another great partner takes no damage from ground types and can absorb fire type moves easily and is able to threaten with its water type move in addition to being able to voltswitch scout to give your team an even bigger advantage. Latios/Latias are good partners, they are immune to ground and can easily take fire moves while being able to break many pokemon with their strong Draco Meteors. Lando-T is another good partner, it discourages physical attackers can U-turn scout which allows the player to keep the offensive pressure and momentum. Ferrothorn, its good defenses helps absorb ground and dark type attacks and punishes physical attackers while being able to provide more pressure with leech seed and stealth rocks. If Mgross can't 6-0 your team its teammates will allow it switch out and still keep threatening momentum their side.

6 - Mind Games, going toe to toe with Mgross is mentally tiring and you are always at a disadvantage. For example Excadrill vs Metagross Mega in this situation Mgross is already thinking of switching out because Excadrill must be scarf if it faces Mgross, Ferrothorn and Lando T are good switch ins to Exca ontop of Ferrothorn can punish the ironhead assuming the Excadrill predicts the Mgross switch. Simple scenerios like that go through a players head constantly. MGross teams already have the advantage of being able to quickly sniff out pokemon sets and once figuring them are able to easily capitalize on its weakness.

7 - Team Restrictions , a knowledgeable player knowing all those facts I listed above now has the added worry of making sure their team can deal with a team like that in addition to being able to handle other play styles such as Mega Sableye Stall, Mega Lopunny , Mega Diancie, CharX/Y Mgarde/Gallade. If your play-style and team building is similar to mine, you are someone who likes to make sure he has an answer to everything or at the very least you are able to handle the weaknesses of your team and still have a good chance at winning, instead of getting completely crushed.

These 7 points represent my own thought process for how I view Mgross. Metagross Mega has past the point of being a GOOD solid pokemon and is now becoming a roadblock to the games stability and balance.


Note: I didn't bother putting calcs because there are 23+ pages of people showing calcs and skimming through the first 5 pages should give you a clear look at the damage and coverage Mgross has.

 

[ArchPhantom]

Got Reqs a few years ago so imma share my thoughts on Metagross. Before that though, wouldn't it be really dandy to get usage stats for the suspect ladder once the period is over?

Anyways, here are my thoughts:

Initially, I was undecided or neutral on Mega Metagross. After laddering though and experiencing a spider-less meta, all of that has chang- who am I kidding- I'm still undecided on M-Meta even after getting Reqs and playing a bunch of games. Idk, M-Meta has never stood out to me as something broken. Back on the regular OU ladder, M-Meta to me was like a Zard X: you slap on a Lando T for him and you are golden (Well of course not Lando t for spidey but like a Slowbro or something; you get my point). It was simply a powerful, top tier threat that you needed to have an answer (or two perhaps; depending on your build) for. And this is the way I view Metagross even after the suspect and all the arguments presented.


On paper, M-Gross sounds like a (insert broken mon) 2, no, 4.0 with the LO claws and the coverage and the gargantuan defenses (or it's made to sound that way) but in practice, it really isn't. Pre mega evolving, we must remember it has a measly base 70 speed and rather meh sdef so it will not be coming in on things for free (Latis and Clef deal a good ~40% chunk, putting it in range of Bisharp/Lando/etc, as an example). Even if it did get a free switch, what's it going to do? Dragon Dance to +6 and proceed to sweep you? It has answers on every team archetype, viable answers at that. A lot of this has been said already so I won't beat a dead Keldeo.

The overcentralization thing. Is it centralizing? Maybe, but what top tier threat isn't? Every good mon is centralizing in one way or another. These are some of the things I've been thinking about for the last couple-uh days. In regards to the suspect ladder, it doesn't tell me much because the stuff I saw was, more or less, the same as it was in regular OU. Just minus gross. ;_;

Reqs

 

[nv]

From what I can tell so far throughout the thread and the suspect ladder, there is a mixed review on whether or not Metagrossite should be banned. I, as a staple UU player, know just how difficult it is to see a "mixed review" kind of Pokemon to leave the tier (RIP Staraptor, Weavile, Victini, MegaZam). I truly feel though, only having played OU on the suspect ladder, and thus without Metagrossite, that I cannot see what effect it has on the tier in full. However, I do believe based on natural ability and observations, why Metagrossite could be looked at to be banned. Lemme explain...

Mega Metagross has 145 / 105 / 110 offenses, allowing it outspeed a ton of OU threats, such as Keldeo, Lando-I, and Garchomp while also speed tying with Mega Gallade, the Lati twins, Mega Diancie and Gengar. This also is backed by the fact that it can bulk almost any super effective move thanks to its amazing defensive typing back by a 80 / 150 / 110 bulk. The fact that it can tank a 145 base Attack, STAB boosted Earthquake from Jolly Lando-T says a lot about its bulk.

Calc

252 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 252-296 (83.7 - 98.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And its special bulk is nothing to laugh at either as many Pokemon that carry special coverage moves, such as Tyranitar, have no way to get around Megagross.

Calc

0 SpA Tyranitar Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Metagross: 140-166 (46.5 - 55.1%) -- 65.2% chance to 2HKO

Not a guaranteed 2HKO...wtf?

But while it does have a great ton of bulk and offensive presence going for it, and an amazing offensive ability in Tough Claws which effectively gives it a free Life Orb boost without recoil, it is still outsped by a lot of common Pokemon in OU such as Thundurus, who can grab easy momentum off of it thanks to Volt Switch, Raikou, who can also grab easy momentum with Volt Switch, and Smogon Burd Talonflame, who threatens it with a STAB Flare Blitz. It is also has the apparent problem other Megas have in that they gain a better Speed tier from Mega Evolving, such as Diancie, Gallade, Gardevoir, Lopunny, and Manectric...the fact that it cannot afford to deal with base 70 Speed turn 1. This means it can be outsped turn 1 and weakened by a lot of threats that it may outspeed at base 110, such as Garchomp, Lando-I, Lando-T, and so on.

Overall, I am still on the fence as I get accustomed to a meta with Meta, but for now I am leaning towards ban just because this thing has "everything it needs to survive": bulk, power, and speed. Too much for OU imo.

 

[Rich Homie Supreme]

I don't plan on participating in the voting process because I don't have the time and I don't really play singles anymore anyway, but can I just point something out real quick?

I'm not sure if someone's already said this, but Mega Metagross (and a fair amount of the OU metagame) gets easily checked by this guy:

Cofagrigus is easily a one of the major anti-meta Pokemon, and I honestly wish people used it more often, and it feels like it's going to waste. Look at this calculation for example:

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 118-139 (36.8 - 43.4%) -- 98.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Not only can Cofagrigus take away Megagross's ability on contact, but can also burn it or any switch in, and even threatens to 2HKO it with no special attack investment. Get a good prediction (like switching Cofa in on a Bullet Punch) and Megagross either has to switch out and lose momentum or risk getting Will-O-Wisp'd.

This doesn't even apply to only Mega Metagross, either. Other Pokemon that could have a hard time with Cofagrigus include:

• Scizor
• Azumarill
• Gliscor (if Gliscor get's mummied after it's been out for a while, it will lose a huge chunk of HP because, even though it has Toxic Heal, the toxic damage will stack up and once it loses it it will get hurt a lot, if not flat-out die.)
  
• Ferrothorn
• Megazard X
• Bisharp
• Lopunny (Lopunny gets badly shut down by Cofagrigus once it loses Scrappy)
• Salamence
• Talonflame
• Potentially Aegislash (EDIT: Ignore this, I forgot that Stance Change doesn't get effected by Mummy)
• Anything with Huge/Pure Power

The list can go on if you include things in lower tiers. I'm not saying that Cofagrigus is a reason you shouldn't ban Mega Metagross, what I'm saying is that if more people used Cofagrigus it could potentially lead to a healthier meta game, considering Pokemon like Mega Metagross, Scizor, etc. will have more common checks, and might promote using Pokemon found in lower tiers more often.

Just to piggyback on this, why is there this stigma against playing pokemon from lower tiers? Tiers are based on usage and not power/usefulness. The ou tier pokemon aren't the only ones, so why not look at lower tiered pokemon and when you need to counter something? As long as the pokemon isn't useless outside of countering pokemon, It should be fine.
Cofagrigus is one example of a low tier pokemon that can best mega metagross and other things, cress can also beat mega metagross.

 

[Siggu]

Just to piggyback on this, why is there this stigma against playing pokemon from lower tiers? Tiers are based on usage and not power/usefulness.

Of course tiers are not based on power and usefulness, but on usage. Thing is, USAGE is mostly based on power and usefulness. So it ends up having some kind of influence. And unless there's some hidden gem lurking in the lower tiers (e.g. DPP Tentacruel) its placement is deserved.

Now, my stand on Megagross is that the suspect is well-deserved due to its lack of major weaknesses. Sure, it's weak to Dark, Ground and Fire, but it's bulky enough (Without investment) to survive even STAB moves, without forgetting its good amount of resistances. Its viable movepool may not be big, but it's enough to make it work. Its STAB moves have average base power, but there's Tough Claws and their secondary effects. It's slow pre-mega, but even pre-mega it's pretty bulky, at least on the physical side. The only weakness it cannot compensate (And that I can remember right now) is its lack of recovery... and even then, it resists SR.

I don't think it's broken per se (Personally, I find its traits to be so balanced they don't stand out), so the judgement should be based on whether the Mega Meta-less metagame is better, considering it's really easy to use...

 

[Jaguar360]

HP Fire Metagross is bad because it lowers your speed, letting the myriad of other base 110s beat you (Gengar, Latis, Mega Diancie, opposing Mega Meta, Mega Gallade) and you need a good amount of SpA investment to do good damage against most things. It really shouldn't be considered.

 

[Merritt]

HP Fire Metagross... ok you guys lost me here. I'm out.

But you caaaan run it.

No, I was finding things that didn't get murdered by its STABs (hence why pretty much all of them had an alternate move as best option) and found the best thing. While HP Fire is certainly not the best choice, it's been brought up before, and as I've shown certainly lets you beat MScizor, Skarmory, and Ferrothorn.

 

[Rich Homie Supreme]

HP Fire Metagross is bad because it lowers your speed, letting the myriad of other base 110s beat you (Gengar, Latis, Mega Diancie, opposing Mega Meta, Mega Gallade) and you need a good amount of SpA investment to do good damage against most things. It really shouldn't be considered.

It's bad yes, but it is an option and something that if used can sometimes allow mega metagross to rek your team.

 

[WebBowser]

HP Fire Metagross is bad because it lowers your speed, letting the myriad of other base 110s beat you (Gengar, Latis, Mega Diancie, opposing Mega Meta, Mega Gallade) and you need a good amount of SpA investment to do good damage against most things. It really shouldn't be considered.

Yeah, it's kind of like HP-Fire/Firghting latios, it lowers your speed (costing you a bunch of matchups) and doesn't really hurt all that much unless you're taking SE damage from it...

Yet it still gets used, especially in tournaments where surprise lure sets hold a lot of value. Here's an old Halcyon post on the subject:

Lures
Just about ever sweeper has counters that must first be KOed or weakened before they can sweep the rest of the opponent's team. Dragonite needs Skarmory out of the way, Gyarados needs Ferrothorn weakened. Diggersby needs Gengar KOed. So how does one realistically beat these Pokemon. An easy thing to tell yourself is "well if I need Skarmory KOed, I'll just use Thundurus to beat it." The problem with that line of thought is that even though Thundurus can beat Skarmory 1v1, no competent player will keep a Skarmory in on a Thundurus. Instead, they will switch out and the counter to your Dragonite will remain healthy. A much more effective strategy is to use something that Skarmory will feel safe switching into, but will surprisingly KO it. An example of this would be SD Aegislash with Life Orb and Head Smash. As soon as Skarmory sees Swords Dance, it will most likely think Skarmory can come in and Whirlwind it out without fear. However, Head Smash can OHKO it after Stealth Rock, or at least bring it low enough to ensure Dragonite won't have to worry about Skarmory. Other such lures include Passho Volcarona for Keldeo, Wacan Manaphy for Thundurus, Earthquake Latios for Heatran, stuff like that. Essentially these things don't sacrifice much viability at all in order to lure in and KO a threat.

I think the HP fire metagross fits quite nicely into that bolded definition.

Remember folks, Metagross is not a sweeper, it just happens to have the speed and power to do that occasionally (kind of like non-NP thundy I, it can sweep teams on occasion, but it's not really supposed to). It's a bulky, hard hitting mon whose purpose is to soften the enemy team for your real sweeper, and if that means running a lure set to take out scizor, then so be it.

 

[MaestroDeSWAG]

But you caaaan run it.

No, I was finding things that didn't get murdered by its STABs (hence why pretty much all of them had an alternate move as best option) and found the best thing. While HP Fire is certainly not the best choice, it's been brought up before, and as I've shown certainly lets you beat MScizor, Skarmory, and Ferrothorn.

You caaaan run HP psychic on conkeldurr... Technically. HP fire was discussed several pages back, and it's really useless. You can't even 2hko ferro w/o significant investment, I can't remember the exact calcs tho.

Yeah, HP fire is irrelevant.

Yeah, it's kind of like HP-Fire/Firghting latios, it lowers your speed (costing you a bunch of matchups) and doesn't really hurt all that much unless you're taking SE damage from it...

Yet it still gets used, especially in tournaments where surprise lure sets hold a lot of value. Here's an old Halcyon post on the subject:



I think the HP fire metagross fits quite nicely into that bolded definition.

Remember folks, Metagross is not a sweeper, it just happens to have the speed and power to do that occasionally (kind of like non-NP thundy I, it can sweep teams on occasion, but it's not really supposed to). It's a bulky, hard hitting mon whose purpose is to soften the enemy team for your real sweeper, and if that means running a lure set to take out scizor, then so be it.

This was also touched on last time HP fire was discussed. Fire blast Gyarados is listed as an example of a bad lure on the good lures thread and it serves a similar purpose. Basically it lets you smack Skarm, but upon closer inspection, it really isn't worth it. It MAY grant you an extra ko or )if you're REALLY lucky) two, but it really isn't worth it.

Anyways, the state of the meta w/o Megagross is rather interesting to me. I feel that the fast-paced metagame with Megagross is actually pretty fun to play, but many others I know feel otherwise. Out of curiosity, what is public opinion on this? I feel this should be an important matter to consider in suspecting a mon.

 

[Jaguar360]

0 SpA Mega Metagross Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 136-164 (38.6 - 46.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
248 SpA Mega Metagross Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 176-208 (50 - 59%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
When you have to invest that much to get a 2HKO it's not worth it. Yes, Ferrothorn has no recovery, but you might as well just use Hammer Arm if you want to beat it.

0 SpA Mega Metagross Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 122-144 (36.5 - 43.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mega Metagross Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 150-178 (44.9 - 53.2%) -- 87.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Again, not worth it, especially since Skarmory has Roost. There's also SpD Skarm to worry about.

0 SpA Mega Metagross Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Scizor: 180-216 (52.3 - 62.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Literally the only thing you'd want to use HP Fire for.

 

[badabing]

fuck dark pulse rotom

yea i dont really have any groundbreaking insight on this suspect. teles last post on page 22 covered my thoughts surprisingly well. the part where he referred to meta's offensive capacity requiring a three poke core to respond to it (and even thats subject to prediction while scouting the set) was what originally made me feel that it was broken. then take that compounded upon its speed tier/typing/bulk and you have an attacker that is stupidly easy to check shit and punish with. the distinction about its speed tier is actually key because there really is a world of difference between 100/101 and 110 when it comes to threatening offensive teams. the same holds true for its typing/bulk which increases its "checkability" exponentially in that it can switch on many common attacks and commence annihilation. you simply cant afford that many opportunities to roll up for a mon so utterly strapped imo... and thats an often overlooked feature on attacking mons that really defines their presence and ability to dominate a game.

if there are multiple broken mons preventing oras from stabilizing (with meta helping to keep one of them in check and maintain a little building diversity), we should still begin banning them despite fear of teles diagram collapsing and the ps ladder descending into chaos whatever the fuck it is already. think we need to take da first step.. and id probs clip some fairies next but thats just me.

 

[ボーイ]

I am purely a stall player. I have no intention of using Mega Metagross nor have I ever used it at all. Banning it would mean a needless benefit to me as a player.
I highly discourage voting out of feelings. The metagame has no use for anger and hate. It needs truth, logic, and accurate decisions.

Metagross, being a Psychic type, generally has a flaw to the moves: Foul Play, Pursuit.
Sableye, Tyranitar, Mandibuzz, Bisharp, etc.

Will-o-wisp and scald are also very common moves in the OU environment.

Note: there is an unofficial trend of steel types being banned simply because of curiosity to suspect testing. I would not advise you to follow.

Don't Ban

 

[Cloud_Nine987]

I am purely a stall player. I have no intention of using Mega Metagross nor have I ever used it at all. Banning it would mean a needless benefit to me as a player.
I highly discourage voting out of feelings. The metagame has no use for anger and hate. It needs truth, logic, and accurate decisions.

Metagross, being a Psychic type, generally has a flaw to the moves: Foul Play, Pursuit.
Sableye, Tyranitar, Mandibuzz, Bisharp, etc.

Will-o-wisp and scald are also very common moves in the OU environment.

Note: there is an unofficial trend of steel types being banned simply because of curiosity to suspect testing. I would not advise you to follow.

Don't Ban

Ah, you know what? Will-O-Wisp and Scald are very common in OU right now. That means Aegislash is no longer broken! It's weak to Bisharp, Tyranitar, Mandibuz, Bisharp, etc...it's also weak to Foul Play and Pursuit. Let's unban it! No, but this is flawed logic. That stuff negatively affects every mon. We're talking about what Metagross itself is capable of, and that's a lot.

I'm sorta leaning on a ban now. It gets "checked" by burns, yeah. It dislikes Pursuit, yup. But I don't think any mon like either of those when specifically a burn is one of the most reliable checks to it.

 

[Karxrida]

Ah, you know what? Will-O-Wisp and Scald are very common in OU right now. That means Aegislash is no longer broken! It's weak to Bisharp, Tyranitar, Mandibuz, Bisharp, etc...it's also weak to Foul Play and Pursuit. Let's unban it! No, but this is flawed logic. That stuff negatively affects every mon. We're talking about what Metagross itself is capable of, and that's a lot.

I'm sorta leaning on a ban now. It gets "checked" by burns, yeah. It dislikes Pursuit, yup. But I don't think any mon like either of those when specifically a burn is one of the most reliable checks to it.

I was bored so I went through the Viability thread and saw 16 Pokemon in the current A rank alone that give Aegislash trouble (either checking or making it hard for it to switch in), so I don't see the problem with the logic here.

I agree with WhiteQueen that there are enough answers to Mega Meta that it isn't banworthy, it just seems like people want it gone because they don't want to deal with it for whatever reason. It doesn't restrict teambuilding like Greninja (also unlike ninja it has legit 4MSS since it needs STABs + Hammer Arm/Earthquake, giving only 1 slot for coverage or Bullet Punch) and needs legit support to actually sweep due to how bad its STAB coverage is (especially if it's Agility).