Pokémon Serperior

[Count Serperior]

Yes, I'm with Kurona on this one.

Serperior NEEDS Timid + 252 speed EVs.

Either go with Life Orb, or Substitute + Leftovers. Both are excellent, Life Orb is better against Hyper Offense (with Glare) and Leftovers + Substitute can quickly gain momentum against defensive teams. Terrifyingly quick actually.

 

[freddymc]

Taking one hit is nowhere near good enough to sacrifice a Life Orb for power, and Speed which is by far one of Serperior's best traits. It absolutely requires speed investment to not get outsped by most every offensive 'mon in the tier and get off a sweep.

Yes, I'm with Kurona on this one.

Serperior NEEDS Timid + 252 speed EVs.

Either go with Life Orb, or Substitute + Leftovers. Both are excellent, Life Orb is better against Hyper Offense (with Glare) and Leftovers + Substitute can quickly gain momentum against defensive teams. Terrifyingly quick actually.

Well my serperior does have a timid nature and it also runs giga drain. I know the sets you mentioned are usually very effective but for me I find it nice to try something a lil different. Also I use my serperior as a wallbreaker and the hp and leftovers allows me to essentially sponge any hit the foe sends at me (because walls typically have usually unboosted and uninvested offensive stats) and abuse leaf storm to get SpAtk up. And I have countered several offensive mons like gyarados and alakazam mainly thanks to serperior's defensive capabilities and the hp boost.

 

[D_what]

Yes, I'm with Kurona on this one.

Serperior NEEDS Timid + 252 speed EVs.

Either go with Life Orb, or Substitute + Leftovers. Both are excellent, Life Orb is better against Hyper Offense (with Glare) and Leftovers + Substitute can quickly gain momentum against defensive teams. Terrifyingly quick actually.

Hate to flog this dead horse again, but... why 252 EVs :| It outspeeds nothing with that bar Scolipede and possibly other Serperior. 12 EVs might not be a lot of HP, but it's better than no investment, which is something that's been bothering me about the upcoming Serperior analysis - "A negligible difference"... since when do we cut corners like this? If it has a benefit you make use of that benefit! It's basically free bulk D: Halcyon dawg can I get your input on this since it's been a while since anybody brought it up on the thread?

I am sorry that I am such a pedant :(

 

[Karxrida]

Hate to flog this dead horse again, but... why 252 EVs :| It outspeeds nothing with that bar Scolipede and possibly other Serperior. 12 EVs might not be a lot of HP, but it's better than no investment, which is something that's been bothering me about the upcoming Serperior analysis - "A negligible difference"... since when do we cut corners like this? If it has a benefit you make use of that benefit! It's basically free bulk D: Halcyon dawg can I get your input on this since it's been a while since anybody brought it up on the thread?

I am sorry that I am such a pedant :(

If you choose to do this and are running Life Orb, don't put that 12 into HP since you won't have a Life Orb number anymore.

 

[tehy]

it's not free bulk because you lose out on a speed tie;;;

it's 3 more HP-which is unlikely to matter in almost any scenario-vs speed tying with other Serperior, which is likely to matter in any scenario where you face a Serperior.

Unless you can show me a calc where the extra 12 evs influences...well, anything, i'll take the speed tie and good night

btw i have no problem with pedantry being the largest one of them all. My view is that you should always maximize your advantages when teambuilding, even small advantages can help and you should come the best you can be to the match. It's just that you happen to be wrong.

 

[D_what]

If you're running Life Orb, don't put that 12 into HP since you won't have a Life Orb number anymore.

Sure, defense or whatever the appropriate stat is. And then adjustments for Hidden Power. But the main part is: investing fully into speed is wasted investment.

Except for the Serp thing, damn that's speed creep if it ever existed :\ Ironically or not, below 252 would be fine then if other Serperior didn't exist? Maybe a catch-22 there idk??
*intends to spend a while throwing random numbers into damage calculators* Something complicated involving Life Orb Recoil and Hidden Power Fire, maybe. //unlikely
but
252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Serperior: 125-148 (42.9 - 50.8%) -- 3.1% chance to 2HKO, assuming no boosts
+LO Recoil on the next move for both parties, unless Status/Recovery move + Leftovers is a thing
*sigh*
I'm really just digging myself into a deeper hole here, aren't I?

EDIT: BRAINWAVE, WHAT ABOUT MAX SPEED HIDDEN POWER NUMBERS //probable dead-end, but won't a Hidden Power Fire Serperior only ever speed tie with other Hidden Power Fire (or Rock) Serperiors because of the 30 in speed? But then Hidden Power Fire is the only reliable way to take out other Serperiors anyway, sans a boosted DPulse, and speed tying with those Serperior is kind of important... can HP Ground Serperior do anything to other Serperior even if they are faster?

 

[Kurona]

Sure, defense or whatever the appropriate stat is. And then adjustments for Hidden Power. But the main part is: investing fully into speed is wasted investment.

Except for the Serp thing, damn that's speed creep if it ever existed :\ Ironically or not, below 252 would be fine then if other Serperior didn't exist? Maybe a catch-22 there idk??
*intends to spend a while throwing random numbers into damage calculators* Something complicated involving Life Orb Recoil and Hidden Power Fire, maybe. //unlikely
but
252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Serperior: 125-148 (42.9 - 50.8%) -- 3.1% chance to 2HKO, assuming no boosts
+LO Recoil on the next move for both parties, unless Status/Recovery move + Leftovers is a thing
*sigh*
I'm really just digging myself into a deeper hole here, aren't I?

It can stop opposing Serperior coming in and 1-1ing you if you've already got a boost. Situational, but honestly more useful than 3 more EVs in a Defence or HP will ever be.

 

[pika pal]

Hate to flog this dead horse again, but... why 252 EVs :| It outspeeds nothing with that bar Scolipede and possibly other Serperior. 12 EVs might not be a lot of HP, but it's better than no investment, which is something that's been bothering me about the upcoming Serperior analysis - "A negligible difference"... since when do we cut corners like this? If it has a benefit you make use of that benefit! It's basically free bulk D: Halcyon dawg can I get your input on this since it's been a while since anybody brought it up on the thread?

I am sorry that I am such a pedant :(

It's more that while both benefits are negligible in most situations, the times the speed is a benefit are more consistent when they come up.

Because of how damage rolls work, there are very few situations where 12 HP EVs will avert a KO that would have happened without them.

Speed is a flat comparison. There's no randomization to it, so 1 point in Speed has a much more consistent benefit than 1 point in HP or defense. 3 HP might not save you from a 2HKO every time, but if that 3 speed puts you over an opposing Serperior, you ALWAYS benefit from it because you will outspeed that opponent every single time, no questions asked.

To compare with the crowded Base 110 tier, the best that Metagross can achieve is speed tying other 110's. While it COULD just run enough to outpace Base 108 like Keldeo, there are more match ups Metagross can win by being able to speed-tie and win the coin-flip than by always going second and taking a hit with those few extra EVs.


The concise version: Speed is the most consistent stat in terms of a higher number being greater benefit, so if the investment is small enough, Speed is the most likely to give a return the few times those EVs prove relevant.

 

[Caiahar]

Curious, what does Serp outspeed with Timid? In game I finally got one from SR with modest, hp fire and good IVs. Wouldn't Modest be better for max damage?

 

[Tarontos]

Base 99+ max speed with a positive nature, so no with out positive speed to many things out speed it.

 

[Halcyon.]

Yeah basically what Tehy said. The extra 4 HP you would get by lowering yourself to 352 Speed isn't going to make enough of a difference, whereas Speed tying other Serperior is slightly more important. If you want to have the extra bulk, then by all means do it It just won't likely allow you to tank anything significant.

 

[EeveeTrainerG]

I've tried the life orb set and the leftovers set and here are some problems I encountered that we should resolve.

Serperior @ Life Orb
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 12 HP / 252 SpA / 244 Spe
Timid Nature
- Leaf Storm
- Synthesis
- Dragon Pulse
- Hidden Power [Fire]

Personally I found the life orb set to be a little counterintuitive. Serperior's strength is in the spammability of leaf storm and sweeping capability. But if you have a burn for instance you take 22% if you attack and also puts you in danger of losing your offensive momentum to the recoil if you don't have synthesis. If you do run synthesis you miss out on glare and knock off, or you are forced to have only one other attacking move, in which life orb is a lot weaker if you only have two attacks. Every less attack you have increases your walls you can't break by a lot. The extra damge can be helpful but moves like glare, knock off, taunt, and sub at least do something in a bad matchup rather than leaving you there disappointed as you are forced to switch. And switching is bad for seperior in general. Leaf storm only has 8 pp and if you use two or three and then have to switch out you basically wasted pp unless you knocked out or crippled something.

Serperior @ Leftovers
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 192 HP / 72 SpA / 244 Spe
Timid Nature
- Leaf Storm
- Hidden Power [Ground]
- Dragon Pulse
- Substitute

NOTE
+2 72 SpA Serperior Hidden Power Ground vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Heatran: 284-336 (87.9 - 104%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

I'm not sure if it matters but I did some calcs and if the situation above happens you can take out heatran, even scarf if you have a sub up. Unlikely that you'll be able to get +2 and a sub if your opponent has a heatran, but it could help to keep a sweep going if your opponent doesn't switch in.

The leftovers set I used had different problems that led to the same result. To use leftovers effectively you have to invest in hp or the defenses and, as has already been discussed, if you uses the Timid 244 speed that does not leave a lot of room for Sp.Atk. I felt underwhelmed and frustrated by serperior's power with this. I was torn on whether dragon pulse or glare would be better but its probably better if you go with coverage.

From my experience the life orb set was better for the early game while the leftovers was better in late game. The "G" in my name is for my favorite type grass and I really want to see Serperior suceed. I think he'll need team members like Slowbro or Rotom-W to take care of his checks.

These are just my thoughts after my testing I've done and would appriciate any feedback.

 

[DragonAscent]

I've tried the life orb set and the leftovers set and here are some problems I encountered that we should resolve.

Serperior @ Life Orb
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 12 HP / 252 SpA / 244 Spe
Timid Nature
- Leaf Storm
- Synthesis
- Dragon Pulse
- Hidden Power [Fire]

Personally I found the life orb set to be a little counterintuitive. Serperior's strength is in the spammability of leaf storm and sweeping capability. But if you have a burn for instance you take 22% if you attack and also puts you in danger of losing your offensive momentum to the recoil if you don't have synthesis. If you do run synthesis you miss out on glare and knock off, or you are forced to have only one other attacking move, in which life orb is a lot weaker if you only have two attacks. Every less attack you have increases your walls you can't break by a lot. The extra damge can be helpful but moves like glare, knock off, taunt, and sub at least do something in a bad matchup rather than leaving you there disappointed as you are forced to switch. And switching is bad for seperior in general. Leaf storm only has 8 pp and if you use two or three and then have to switch out you basically wasted pp unless you knocked out or crippled something.

That's why most people run giga drain in the synthesis slot; reliable STAB and pretty good recovery if you snag a few boosts. The second lure set sounds awesome, though.

 

[Karxrida]

I'm really getting tired of seeing people post sets with HP investment while they're running a Life Orb. The bulk you get is pointless because of the recoil (plus you're not stopping any important OHKOs/2HKOs with it anyway) and you lose your Life Orb number with any sort of investment. You also lose the ability to speed tie with opposing Serperiors who are running max, which is far more important than getting 3 points of HP/Defense anyway.

 

[EeveeTrainerG]

Actually I calced it and Serperior can switch in to choice specs keldeo even after stealth rocks.

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 8 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 217-256 (74 - 87.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

This ensures that you can always take out a keldeo since you outspeed it, but you need at least 8 hp evs to do so. So you could do 8 and then have 248 speed evsto outspeed 244 serperiors.

 

[pika pal]

Actually I calced it and Serperior can switch in to choice specs keldeo even after stealth rocks.

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 8 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 217-256 (74 - 87.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

This ensures that you can always take out a keldeo since you outspeed it, but you need at least 8 hp evs to do so. So you could do 8 and then have 248 speed evsto outspeed 244 serperiors.

Considering how important Speed ties could be, I'd say it might be better to put those 8 EVs from Sp Attack instead. It's more inconsequential there, especially factoring in Leaf Storm Boosts.

 

[Karxrida]

Actually I calced it and Serperior can switch in to choice specs keldeo even after stealth rocks.

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 8 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 217-256 (74 - 87.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

This ensures that you can always take out a keldeo since you outspeed it, but you need at least 8 hp evs to do so. So you could do 8 and then have 248 speed evsto outspeed 244 serperiors.

You then die to LO recoil as Keldeo switches out to a Grass resist or purposefully sacks itself if it's not needed anymore during lategame. Giga Drain also fails to OHKO while Scarf wins anyway since it has a 98% chance to 2HKO without Rocks up.

 

[EeveeTrainerG]

You then die to LO recoil as Keldeo switches out to a Grass resist or purposefully sacks itself if it's not needed anymore during lategame. Giga Drain also fails to OHKO while Scarf wins anyway since it has a 98% chance to 2HKO without Rocks up.

Then if a keldeo secret swords you on the switch and you live with more than 26% without rocks you know that the keldeo is not specs and is likely scarfed. That means that you have a lot more switch ins that you know can come in safe like no bulk talonflame, which secret sword on scarf keldeo won't even one shot WITH stealth rock

252 SpA Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 92-108 (30.9 - 36.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

With roost the choice locked keldeo can never ko you and that requires them to sack keldeo or talonflame sets up or gets a free hit on something.

If you live with less than 10% after rocks and you have life orb, then its a mind game where if you attack and he doesn't switch you both die, but if you predict a switch and sythensis, taunt, glare, ect. and he stays in you get ko'd. Or like you said you attack, he switches and you kill yourself. Another reason why I like leftovers better, but then you only have a 93.8% chance to ko with leaf storm even with max evs in Sp.Atk.

 

[carlucio7]

Serperior is way better than i expected, its abilitie to damage switch ins increases progressively and it's pretty op in late game.

Edit: Just noticed that it gets speed boost if sticky web is on the field.

 

[procrastinat]

252 SpA Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 92-108 (30.9 - 36.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

With roost the choice locked keldeo can never ko you and that requires them to sack keldeo or talonflame sets up or gets a free hit on something.

That is simply incorrect, as Roost removes your Flying type, and since Talon's Roosts have priority, this will end up happening:

252 SpA Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 183-216 (61.6 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

If you switch Talonflame into a Keldeo while rocks are up, and your opponent really wants Talon dead, Talon will die.


Getting back on the topic of Serperior, Speed is the most important stat in Pokemon. Even a minimal difference in the speed stat can make or break a pokemon. Just look at Thundurus-I, it's 111 base speed allows it to revenge many pokemon below 110 base speed and allows it to outprioritize adamant Talonflame.

 

[EeveeTrainerG]

I realize I was worng with talonflame, but enough of that. Another problem I found with using serperior was ditto. If it switches in and copies your stat boosts, your in a horrible position. The only chance of killing it would be hp fire, but that mans the ditto has it too and will outspeed you and kill you. Of course they're most likely choice locked after that meaning you have a switch in, assuming that you have some kind of fire resist or heatran, and almost every team has one or the other of these, as most people would prefer not to get swept by a charizard or volcorona.

The speed debate has on wheter to go max speed or not is tough. Max speed timid allows you to outspeed or speed tie other serperiors or any other base 113 out there (I'm not even sure there is a relevant base 113 out there anyway.) Even if your going to take evs off speed, what do they go on, Sp.Atk? Seems preety irrelevant there considering the boosts, and most switch ins to serperior are 4x resistant or too bulky to knock out efficiently. You probably should do max speed very high investment in bulk or sp.atk to make it worthwhile, and at least 12 in hp for reasons I posted in an earlier reply. That's my opinion at least.

 

[pika pal]

I realize I was worng with talonflame, but enough of that. Another problem I found with using serperior was ditto. If it switches in and copies your stat boosts, your in a horrible position. The only chance of killing it would be hp fire, but that mans the ditto has it too and will outspeed you and kill you. Of course they're most likely choice locked after that meaning you have a switch in, assuming that you have some kind of fire resist or heatran, and almost every team has one or the other of these, as most people would prefer not to get swept by a charizard or volcorona.

The speed debate has on wheter to go max speed or not is tough. Max speed timid allows you to outspeed or speed tie other serperiors or any other base 113 out there (I'm not even sure there is a relevant base 113 out there anyway.) Even if your going to take evs off speed, what do they go on, Sp.Atk? Seems preety irrelevant there considering the boosts, and most switch ins to serperior are 4x resistant or too bulky to knock out efficiently. You probably should do max speed very high investment in bulk or sp.atk to make it worthwhile, and at least 12 in hp for reasons I posted in an earlier reply. That's my opinion at least.

Ditto is an answer to almost every Set-Up sweeper in the game, but it's kind of one-note and much less common on high ladder because it's match-up reliant. That's not really a point against Serperior specifically.

Serperior's better off going for full offense anyway. The idea of a bulky booster is done better by things like Clefable. Serperior needs every bit of power it can get even at +2, so it's definitely best going full speed/Special Attack, at most putting a tiny bit in defense maybe for Keldeo as noted in that SS calc. Serperior's HP shouldn't be changed though since 29 IVs hit the LO number it wants to stick with.

 

[Dee Train]

I have grown to love this snake. I personally enjoy HP fire for coverage as I'll take the loss on the serp on serp speed tie, but other than that little is lost by running hp fire.

A nasty plot boost while dealing deamage with stab is just nuts

edit: When using life orb (really it best item by far) NEVER dump in HP... in fact use 29 hp iv to get a life orb number ( i know it has been said before, but must be said again since im seeing so many sets with hp evs)

 

[carlucio7]

I'm using substitute+leftovers, Serperior is such a magnet to status conditions.

 

[EeveeTrainerG]

Just wanted to post Hooray Serperior is finally OU! And A- no less, which is good considering the other pokemon of the rank. It's cool to think how one long awaited ability was able to change a screen setter from the bottom of NU to an amzing auto boosting threat in OU. Welcome to OU Serperior, let's hope your stay is a long one.