Metagame np: Stage 4 - Celebration (Feraligatr Banned)

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I feel like Heliolisk def needs to be banned, what makes it different from other Volt Switchers such as Rotom and Lanturn is that Helio can reliably dispatch the ground types that stand in its way by spamming Surf and Grass Knot. Any true counters such as Seel (lol) and Lanturn are easily worn down due to the lack of reliable recovery. A base 109 speed is pretty much taunting a majority of NU, and if Helio doesn't like its current matchup, it can easily Volt Switch out while dealing out a respectable amount of damage. Combined with Dry Skin, it's overkill since it instantly becomes a Scald absorber while becoming great partners with Camerupt. Together, they can pretty much wallbreak everything, and the little mons that can take on Helio and Camerupt are pretty much unviable, and frail. Most of them, if not all can't even switch in safely. Don't forget that this is at no cost for the Helio user. So if you combine all of this, ban Helio.

I'm kinda on the fence for M-Lix, yeah, he's bulky and powerful, but these recent drops haven't been kind to it. The fact that it lacks reliable recovery and it's constantly being worn down from switches makes it less threatening as the game goes on. 30 speed is pretty slow as well, even with NU standards, and a majority of Steelix's checks and counters are easily fit into a standard NU team, unlike Helio. No ban for Steelix (atm)

I'll write more later if I have to c:
I never knew seel was a counter to heliolisk, gotta check that out.

btw u failed to mention gourgiest/sliggo, etc.

Steelix isnt that prone to being worn down from switches because of its amazing bulk and typing, and the fact no one uses spikes stack (edit: and near stealth rock immunity) since nu refuses to suspect xatu. Also steelix has the tendency to tank a hit from the majority of its checks not named samurott, and ko them back.
 

Lord Alphose

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I'm not sure if you all are being serious about Seel being a true counter to Heliolisk, but:
252 SpA Life Orb Heliolisk Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Seel: 159-190 (47.6 - 56.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Plus that's, like, the most useless, niche thing I've ever heard of. Ain't nobody running that. I realize that you're arguing that Heliolisk is broken and so the fact that Heliolisk actually beats this thing is an argument towards banning it, but good God just don't even bring it up.

Also, Lanturn isn't that good of a counter. It gets hit hard from Hyper Voice. The ones Oshony listed are actually reasonable.
 

Ares

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Guys can we not look for the most niche things possible to counter Heliolisk. Seel is not a counter for obvious reasons while AV max HP / SpD Seaking is terrible Deej.

I agree that finding something to stop Heliolisk from Volt Switching is hard, but please don't derail the thread with bad Pokemon.
 
Tbh I'm leaning towards no ban for Helio. As Teddeh said over the page, we as players are adapting to the new meta without having to resort to things like lol seaking or scarf levanny. Many of Helios checks are good mons outright that are already commonly used such as yama, torterra, gurdurr, musharna, uxie and gourgeist and have a function outside of just checking helio. Whilst yes Helio can pack a coverage move to handle these checks, it can't afford to cover everything with one move set, eg running running dark pulse for ghosts and psychics means it's walled by Torterra/ Seismatoad etc. I see it no different to mons like Gatr having the option to run earthquake to bop Lanturn or rock slide to bop pelipper and mantine and players having to have secondary checks in their teams. Heliosk is an extremely good Mon, but the combination of frailty, life orb recoil, susceptibility to hazards and inability to cover all its checks is why I believe it should stay.

Steelix on the other hand, nothing new to say here, doesn't need to run random coverage to beat it's checks, with its sheer power and bulk can outlast several mons and just sit there eating teams like a big shiny silver turd. If it runs rest or revives with a healing wish I cri everytime. Steelixite ban Imo

Edit: the other problem with Steelix is it extremely limits team building by making half the tier unviable and set up fodder for it to eat
 
The problem with all of these checks other than lolTorterra is that Heliolisk just Volt Switches on them and gives its user huge amounts of momentum. Most of these checks are not that hard to take advantage of so you're usually fighting a losing battle.
 
Helio also can't switch in on anything that isn't named scald so in practice it doesn't quite have the free froam that people make it out to have. Coming in on rocks, volt switching out and coming in again and Helios lost 30% health already. Baton pass on Musharna or U-Turn on Uxie can quickly turn the tides back in the defensive players favour, plus it has to hard switch on gurdurr and Yama for fear of priority, and can't volt switch on Terra at all.
 
I heard several people mention how the Helio M-Camerupt core can easily break down walls.

What about Vibrava? It hard checks Camerupt w/o HP Ice, 252/0 set takes 80% damage at most from Heliolisk's Hyper Voice, and can easily OHKO with Earthquake. Also Heliolisk can't just Volt Switch on it, due to it's Ground typing.
 

marilli

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You should run SpDef Vibrava if you wanna run that. It also has defog so some kind of Defog / Roost / EQ / U-turn bulky pivot set is best, it also has a chance to avoid 2HKO from Heliolisk Hyper Voice with all the SpDef, but you shouldn't consider it a reliable check.
 

Heliolisk @ Life Orb
Ability: Dry Skin
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hyper Voice
- Thunderbolt
- Surf
- Volt Switch

So this is what I believe to be the most used set of Helioisk's at the moment. Of course, Volt Switch can be changed for things like Focus Blast(For Cradily), Grass Knot(To hit Lanturn harder iirc, as well as Seismitoad), Dark Pulse(For Rotom), and some other things I may be forgetting.
So, using this set, and the coverage moves I listed, I have calced some things that I think could possibly wall Helioisk, and the only counter I found for Helioisk is Torterra and specially defensive Audino. Be these two enough to keep Helioisk in NU is questionable, but only one way to find out.
 

Ares

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Heliolisk @ Life Orb
Ability: Dry Skin
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hyper Voice
- Thunderbolt
- Surf
- Volt Switch

So this is what I believe to be the most used set of Helioisk's at the moment. Of course, Volt Switch can be changed for things like Focus Blast(For Cradily), Grass Knot(To hit Lanturn harder iirc, as well as Seismitoad), Dark Pulse(For Rotom), and some other things I may be forgetting.
So, using this set, and the coverage moves I listed, I have calced some things that I think could possibly wall Helioisk, and the only counter I found for Helioisk is Torterra and specially defensive Audino. Be these two enough to keep Helioisk in NU is questionable, but only one way to find out.
Don't switch Volt Switch out, that and Hyper Voice are staples that should be used on every offensive set in NU. Instead you should switch up Surf, and if you really want more coverage Thunderbolt. Volt Switch is part of the reason why Heliolisk is so good, it can grab momentum for offensive teams and pivot out of your "counters" into more favorable things. Without Volt Switch, Heliolisk is just like another Pyroar with better coverage and a different secondary STAB. Also Grass Knot doesn't hit Lanturn harder, its only 40BP, Hyper Voice hits it for more. Grass Knot is mainly for Seismitoad as Surf overlaps coverage with other targets of Grass Knot like Rhydon.

Edit @ below: the coverage should be tailored to whatever suits your team best, if you don't have a good switchin for mega rupt / mega lix run surf. Same goes for the other coverage moves, you have 5 other teammates choose what compliments them best.
 
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Don't switch Volt Switch out, that and Hyper Voice are staples that should be used on every offensive set in NU. Instead you should switch up Surf, and if you really want more coverage Thunderbolt. Volt Switch is part of the reason why Heliolisk is so good, it can grab momentum for offensive teams and pivot out of your "counters" into more favorable things. Without Volt Switch, Heliolisk is just like another Pyroar with better coverage and a different secondary STAB. Also Grass Knot doesn't hit Lanturn harder, its only 40BP, Hyper Voice hits it for more. Grass Knot is mainly for Seismitoad as Surf overlaps coverage with other targets of Grass Knot like Rhydon.
Ah, ok. I've just seen multiple people forgo Volt Switch for other coverage to success, and thought that was the most common set. And I also thought Surf was mandatory to hit things like Camerupt and Steelix. I am kind of new to NU, so forgive my noobness.
 
Helio also can't switch in on anything that isn't named scald so in practice it doesn't quite have the free froam that people make it out to have. Coming in on rocks, volt switching out and coming in again and Helios lost 30% health already. Baton pass on Musharna or U-Turn on Uxie can quickly turn the tides back in the defensive players favour, plus it has to hard switch on gurdurr and Yama for fear of priority, and can't volt switch on Terra at all.
Yea its lost 30% of its health but in the process of doing this its probably grabbed a tonne of momentum and did pretty decent damage to your team and the specs set is also v good so the whole life orb recoil thing shouldn't be really read in to that much. Hazards arent particularly hard to keep of the field either with mons like xatu and archeops being staples in NU.
 

marilli

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Let me say something might be slightly controversial and act as the devil's advocate.

We talk about Heliolisk as if banning it will actually solve the problematic nature of Volt Switch + Typhlosion offensive core that's basically unstoppable. However, Raichu can do that same thing. Yes, STAB Hyper Voice lets Heliolisk get past threats on his own, and Dry Skin lets him check Gatr: that's why he's better of course. But doesn't matter if stuff like Vileplume is a better check to Raichu, the 'problem of having Volt switch' still exists: you just volt switch from Vileplume and Typhlosion gets a kill. It's the same issue as having a non Spdef Torterra to check Heliolisk: there's nothing stopping him from just spamming Volt Switch and KOing everything. I remember before Virizion Heliolisk and Claydol joined, almost no one was prepared for Electric types bar "I have Steelix / Camerupt" which obviously isn't good enough.

If Heliolisk is gone, Raichu will actually do literally the same thing lol...
 

marilli

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im just saying this to say "it can just volt switch out of everything = no counter = broken" is a bad argument because it that's the case Raichu will be equally 'broken'

sorry im bad at logicing
 
Lol can raichu switch into a volt switch, nab a lightning rod boost and ko back with focus Blast? (Omg you guys) :pimp:

Edit to avoid double posting: but jokes aside, I agree with Marilli, if the argument is it can just volt switch out omg, shouldn't we look to the things it's volt switching too? We had a lot of problems with Typh before the drops, and people have been calling for its ban for a while. Yes Helio makes it better by giving it easy switches, but maybe the Mon actually eating teams should be banned, not the one helping it in.
 
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Seel? Vibrava?

All this grasping at straws just shows how good Heliolisk is.



Raichu sucked before Heliolisk entered the tier, though.

If it's banned, Raichu will still suck.
Vibrava has a viable niche in the current meta game -- it checks a variety of the newly arrived threats, just as how Mandibuzz and Quagsire rose in usage during the Aegislash & Baton Pass days in OU.

Of course should Heliolisk and Camerupt get banned; Vibrava, like Quagsire and Mandibuzz will also fall in usage.
 
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ScraftyIsTheBest

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Well except Vibrava is terrible outside of Defogging and having mildly passable bulk. Mandibuzz and Quagsire are both mildly decent in OU and have decent niches, whereas Vibrava's niche is extremely minute (hence why it's D-).

And on the matter of Volt Switch+Typhlosion core being an issue. I don't think it should mean much when banning Heliolisk. If Heliolisk proves itself to be banworthy as a Pokemon (which, imo, it is), then we ban it. If Typhlosion proves to still be an issue after this test, then we can just suspect that thing too. Suspecting Typhlosion afterwards wouldn't hurt anything except for it having to get an RU analysis despite being completely useless there.

And I do think that Heliolisk is banworthy. The thing with it is that it gains momentum far too easily with its fast Volt Switch, and it packs quite the punch with its good power and coverage with LO. It has a good secondary STAB in Hyper Voice which lets it do reasonable damage to things that resist Volt Switch. More importantly is that Heliolisk can easily smash Ground-types like Rhydon and Seismitoad with Grass Knot or Surf so it's really hard to stop it from just using Volt Switch easily. But what really makes Heliolisk such an unhealthy presence in this tier, in my opinion, is that it can provide momentum with Volt Switch while simultaneously being a powerful attacker (I believe FLCL brought up this point earlier in the thread). Heliolisk does more than provide its fast Volt Switch-it hits reasonably hard and has great coverage, so it can also put in a lot of work against slower teams, especially when things like Vileplume have been weakened (which isn't too hard because Heliolisk can just spam Volt Switch until that's the case and constantly resort to other teammates to REK). I understand that the Volt Switch argument applies to other Volt Switch users, but Heliolisk has Dry Skin and a Normal typing which allow it to take advantage of common stuff like Feraligatr and Mismagius, which is pretty darn huge if you ask me. Heliolisk also has more power and great coverage. Basically, Heliolisk is not an unstoppable monster, but it has little risk and so much reward.

I don't have much to say on Mega Steelix since so many people said what needs to be said. However, I will make the reasons I think it should be banned short and sweet. Basically, it boasts incredible bulk, a powerful defensive typing, and great offensive power in tandem with a great movepool. Due to these qualities, Mega Steelix is a Pokemon that can fit on almost any team, and at the same time will equally give any opposing team a lot of trouble. I admit that its lack of reliable recovery means that it can't come in as frequently as it would like to, but it's so bulky and has a lot of resistances, so it can take advantage of a huge, and I mean absolutely huge amount of Pokemon in this metagame, and it will be able to deal a strong amount of damage in return. Basically, with Mega Steelix's almost universal usefulness it's a Pokemon that forces you to run a dedicated answer to it (which is really hard), lest you want to suffer disproportionately at the hands of a Mega Steelix. Mega Steelix is simply a Pokemon that pulls far more than its own weight in most games.

In a nutshell, I believe these two should be banned.
 

Lord Alphose

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Vibrava has a viable niche in the meta game, it checks a variety of the newly arrived threats in the meta game, just as how Mandibuzz and Quagsire rose in usage during the Aegislash & Baton Pass days in OU.
Good example. Niche Pokemon rose in usage to answer certain threats. Those threats were banned because they were to overcentralizing. Afterwards, these Pokemon fell in usage because they had no use at all outside of that one faculty. Does this story not sound similar?

Quagsire was an obscure Pokemon with an absurd niche that was no longer needed once these things were banned. Vibrava is an obscure Pokemon as well. Also absurd. It's just, like, not good.
 
I've done about 30 battles now, and I've been wondering what other people are wearing on their Heliolisk! Are they using a
or a
as the more common item? I've been running Choice Specs due to how brutally powerful it is, and I've not missed the ability to switch moves with Life Orb. Just a thought or debate to spark discussion, not so much about banning either of these Pokemon (I'm still not sold on Heliolisk, however).
 
Life Orb is definetly the better item since Heliolisk's coverage is so good. Choice Specs isn't a horrible item on it though. It's great for end-game scenarios where you can spam Hyper Voice and not have recoil (specs Hyper Voice has a chance to 2hko fully spdef mega rupt after rocks). Specs are also good if you're a prediction god like me. You don't take life orb damage and you get extra damage on things like Hariyama when it switches into Heliolisk's volt switch.
 
The problem with Specs is that there are so many ground and grass types in the current meta that you're turning an extremely versatile and flexible Mon into something incredibly prediction heavy. Predict a virizion switch and go for hyper voice/ volt switch and bam mega Steelix or Camerupt come in with a near free switch. Go for the surf and any water or grass type can go to town. Heliosk is so good because it can mindlessly click volt switch and if a ground type comes in nab it with surf the following turn. You loose that utility with specs
 
Lol can raichu switch into a volt switch, nab a lightning rod boost and ko back with focus Blast? (Omg you guys) :pimp:

Edit to avoid double posting: but jokes aside, I agree with Marilli, if the argument is it can just volt switch out omg, shouldn't we look to the things it's volt switching too? We had a lot of problems with Typh before the drops, and people have been calling for its ban for a while. Yes Helio makes it better by giving it easy switches, but maybe the Mon actually eating teams should be banned, not the one helping it in.
Raichu switching into a volt switch has 2 flaws. 1 with lightning rod, raichu is incapable of having surf, which is a big reason to compare it too lizard. 2 everything with volt switch bar rotom-fan and defensive lanturn have some way of ohkoing raichu with a coverage move.

The problem with Specs is that there are so many ground and grass types in the current meta that you're turning an extremely versatile and flexible Mon into something incredibly prediction heavy. Predict a virizion switch and go for hyper voice/ volt switch and bam mega Steelix or Camerupt come in with a near free switch. Go for the surf and any water or grass type can go to town. Heliosk is so good because it can mindlessly click volt switch and if a ground type comes in nab it with surf the following turn. You loose that utility with specs
Steelix would be a terrible switchin to virizion, focus blast does a number and so does close combat, yet u barely damage with a 60 BP heavy slam.

Heliolisk's impact on the meta = people run spdef vileplume instead of physical. Why? Because gatr has a hard time sweeping anyway with a fatass steelix in the way. And gourgeist super becoming more common, which isnt bad because gourgeist isnt useless otherwise.
Literally the worst impact that heliolisk has done is make prople consider cradily a spot on thier team.

Steelix's impact on the meta, more typhlosions, more hariyamas to tank hits from typhlosion, psychic types and dark types falling into obscurity. People needing to run TWO steelix checks because 1 hardly is ever enough (God bless your soul if they have healing wish mespy and steelix on the same team). Normal types becoming obselete. The inability to run togetic to counter the hundreds of yamas on the ladder. Xatu is all over the ladder to protect steelix from being worn down from spikes. This meta would make a complete overhaul without this thing.
 
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