Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread!

[TheFenderStory]

I really don't feel like BP is busted in any shape or form in LC. Unlike OU which had multiple tools to essentially prevent BP from being wrecked, LC doesn't have the convenience. First off, we only have 1 Magic Bouncer, so that puts a lot of pressure on it to do any sort of job well, and it leaves ample opportunity for Taunt/Encore/WW/Roar to just mess everything up. LC is also a lot more aggressive, so even after boosts, some Pokemon aren't taking hits overly well. Knock Off can completely wreck a team because losing Evio/BJ is huge to maintaining the chain. As mentioned earlier, hazards, particularly Tspikes, ruin a chain. I might be able to think of some more but that's all that's coming to mind atm.

The Chain - Fleetwood Mac "You'll never break the chain"

While i don't disagree that there are things that can break a baton pass chain, I believe that a well made BP team is actually capable of playing around Taunt/Encore/WW/Roar. LC Baton Pass teams have always followed a very regular formula, because people haven't bothered to experiment. Tahu's BP team, which doesn't even carry a bounce user, is surprisingly effective against these types of threats. I'll be providing plenty of replays during the suspect test. As i've said, I agree that BP is not busted at all, however I think it is a little cancerous and could become worse if teams get a little more creative with it.

 

[doomsday doink]

The Chain - Fleetwood Mac "You'll never break the chain"

While i don't disagree that there are things that can break a baton pass chain, I believe that a well made BP team is actually capable of playing around Taunt/Encore/WW/Roar. LC Baton Pass teams have always followed a very regular formula, because people haven't bothered to experiment. Tahu's BP team, which doesn't even carry a bounce user, is surprisingly effective against these types of threats. I'll be providing plenty of replays during the suspect test. As i've said, I agree that BP is not busted at all, however I think it is a little cancerous and could become worse if teams get a little more creative with it.

People don't carry a bouncer because Natu can't BP and bounce shit back on the same set. Also, Haze is a full stop to BP and a lot of viable mons can use it, such as Skrelp, Gastly, Drifloon, Stunky, etc. Also, if you know for a fact your opponent is gonna bring BP, bring a Haze Wooper and shut down their entire team.

 

[TheFenderStory]

People don't carry a bouncer because Natu can't BP and bounce shit back on the same set. Also, Haze is a full stop to BP and a lot of viable mons can use it, such as Skrelp, Gastly, Drifloon, Stunky, etc. Also, if you know for a fact your opponent is gonna bring BP, bring a Haze Wooper and shut down their entire team.

Pretty sure counterteaming works on a lot of playstyles. Plus all those mons you mentioned want to be carrying moves other then haze.

 

[doomsday doink]

Pretty sure counterteaming works on a lot of playstyles. Plus all those mons you mentioned want to be carrying moves other then haze.

Yeah ct'ing exists, but it's so much easier to ct BP than some other team type

 

[fatty]

How many of you have actually fought BP on a consistent basis? I just ran the ladder recent on two alts and didn't see it once. Similarly, I've yet to see it in the tournament scene such as LCPL, so I fail to see any sort of problem it has been causing. Let's not try and make a problem out of nothing. If it becomes a problem we'll ban it, but sorry guys, just because you got donked and lost to BP one match doesn't mean it is broken.

What my ladder runs did teach me though, and I'm probably going to get a lot of shit for this, is how much of a cunt mienfoo is. It's not just annoying, I firmly believe it forces a player to play in a way that is uncompetitive. It comes from the sense that mienfoo simply does not die outside of Gothic a trapping it. In the hands of a good player, mienfoo will stick around for the entirety of a match, often being the last mon even, walling / beating whatever it needs to despite any optimal plays by the opponent. With its bulk and regenerator, it can switched into essentially any attacking move without repercussions, scout an opponents move, and just switch out. This can be done over and over again throughout a match, and as long as the mienfoo player isn't stupid, can be used to dominate a match without trying hard at all. Despite regenerator and it's bulk, Mienfoo also gets one of the best offensive move pools in the game, making expecting it's bulky pivot set game breaking if it is indeed offensive and carrying something like stone edge or high jump kick. The more and more I think about it, the more and more I believe mienfoo might be what's holding the metagame back. It's not broken in the traditional sense, but to me it might be one the most uncompetitive mons ever in lc.

Also I don't want to hear any of this "mienfoo is good for the metagame" bullshit. That's just a safety blanket to hide behind simply because mienfoo can switch into most of the metagame without fear. That does not make it good for the meta, in fact imo it makes it bad.

 

[Camden]

I actually completely forgot that Natu doesn't get BP w/ Magic Bounce. With that in mind, there's even less that BP can really do to defend itself. It just completely loses to any sort of WW/Roar/Haze, which let's be honest: It's not a terrible option to have on your team if you want a method of deterring set-up.

As for Mienfoo, I'll admit that's it a contributing factor to LC having a frustrating metagame. It really doesn't feel busted by any means, but it's one of the main reasons VoltTurn is as good as it is, and it's just an absurdly safe poke.

 

[Tymano]

IMO there really isn't anything to be tested, due to how balanced the LC metagame is, yeah Shadow Tag and Arena Trap are annoying, but they can be played around, as both Gothita and Diglett are sheets of paper defense-wise. Mienfoo might be the gluemon of the tier, but it can be dealt with with LC's favorite bird, Fletchling, as well as having quite a few other counters and checks (One being scarf goth.) Baton Pass is annoying, but can be easily dealt with with most playstyles.

Although, I do like the idea of retesting Misdrevious (I hope I spelled that correctly.) and Murkrow because they have the potential to bring something to break the balance of the LC metagame, as well as allow the metagame to change and evolve so new threats can be seen and realized, since one threat will bring counters and checks, and new pokemon will be brought out to shine as LC's newest threat. As I show in this drawling here, this is what a healthy metagame looks like

Sorry if it is slightly hard to read, but the key part of this is the "Adaptation Phase" where new pokemon develop, causing major metagame shifts that all-in-all, lead to a healthier metagame, however, LC has not had an adaptation phase since ORAS came out, leading to a unhealthy metagame that looks like this.

I want you to pay attention to the fact that there is no adaptation phase, so no new threats are born, so new things can counter them, which leads to a metagame where nothing changes, and one that feels very boring, like our current LC metagame. By reintroducing Missy or Krow, they will become the new threats, so people can adapt to those new threats, so they will become worse, and the cycle can continue as it normally should. So reintroduce Krow and Missy, so LC will be set back on the right track as an ever adapting tier.

 

[Heysup]

Since when does 'Mienfoo is possibly (even definitely) the best and easiest to use Pokemon in the metagame' all of the sudden make it ban-worthy?

I fail to see the logic to which that conclusion follows. Just because something is the best and safest, does not make it unhealthy for the metagame or even uncompetitive.

I also think it's a Pokemon which has very clear counters and can even be set-up bait for some. Effective U-turn use requires prediction as much as anything does. Throwing a U-turn versus a set up Pokemon like Fletchling or Pawniard versus Drain Punching can be a game-losing move as much as anything else. It cannot be both fast and incredibly bulky. It cannot be slow and effectively use Taunt and Stone Edge/HJK/any other filler move besides Fake Out or safely check things like SD Pawniard. It cannot be fast and do shit like survive Gothita's Psychic among other things. SD Pass is an innovation that I'll admit I use sometimes but if you see it coming it's really hard to fall victim to it and it loses a shit load of viability outside of BPing, like Fake Out, Taunt, and most importantly, U-turn.

And I'm saying this preemptively because I expect it to be brought up that "Gligar was banned for a multitude of reasons (in gens 5 and 6) not necessarily being "broken" in one aspect". I think it's important to point out that Gligar had a few moves and a few sets, that if you throw out the wrong move, you actually lose the game. It was also generally impossible to tell which set it was (SD pass for foo is obviously only to be used with a few specific Pokemon). The consequences for sending the wrong Pokemon against Mienfoo is usually getting something Knocked Off or taking residual damage and still don't momentum. Sure those are good situations but what difference is that from any other prediction? They don't brake a game, at least not immediately. (Knocking off an opposing mienfoo for a Tirt sweep or something needs more than just that knock off)

I think the argument for Mienfoo is this: the power of Mienfoo is not an offensive one, it is a defensive one. If you fuck up using Mienfoo, it is more forgiving because of Regenerator. I do not blame people for thinking this is "frustrating". However, I think it requires exaggeration for that sole fact to be grounds enough for banning it. If Mienfoo was threatening enough for it to come in and do serious damage or actually be a failsafe stop to everything then I'd see that. However, against an equally skilled player it has serious problems that cannot be overcome by Regenerator (like frailty without Eviolite, etc), that can even be exploited by Pokemon like Trubbish, Gothita, and even mons like Honedge and ZHB Vahna.

as an aside: lzc001, what happens with those pokemon is that they reached the phase where people stacked counters and they DID NOT get worse. They were still too imbalanced and LC was stuck in that capacity. The "staleness" of this metagame is a bullshit term. Balance is the goal. Sure, unless you innovate you're going to have a repetitive metagame but that's up to us as players - making a policy to make up for laziness and lack of thought is not healthy. Hawkstar illustrated it below as well.

 

[Celestavian]

Murkrow is never going to get worse though, because no matter how hard you look, you are never going to find something that can switch into it. Nuclear Brave Birds, good coverage moves, and at least 15 viable moves on it make sure of that. Misdreavus is the same way, but does so through raw stats, good typing, boosting potential, and unpredictability rather than clicking Brave Bird and watching health bars vanish. If you want a real example of your first graph, Fletchling is it. No one used it, then it became popular, then it actually got suspected, then people figured out how to beat it, and now its nothing special. That will never happen to either Murkrow or Misdreavus.

 

[Camden]

IMO there really isn't anything to be tested, due to how balanced the LC metagame is, yeah Shadow Tag and Arena Trap are annoying, but they can be played around, as both Gothita and Diglett are sheets of paper defense-wise. Mienfoo might be the gluemon of the tier, but it can be dealt with with LC's favorite bird, Fletchling, as well as having quite a few other counters and checks (One being scarf goth.) Baton Pass is annoying, but can be easily dealt with with most playstyles.

Although, I do like the idea of retesting Misdrevious (I hope I spelled that correctly.) and Murkrow because they have the potential to bring something to break the balance of the LC metagame, as well as allow the metagame to change and evolve so new threats can be seen and realized, since one threat will bring counters and checks, and new pokemon will be brought out to shine as LC's newest threat. As I show in this drawling here, this is what a healthy metagame looks like
View attachment 36158
Sorry if it is slightly hard to read, but the key part of this is the "Adaptation Phase" where new pokemon develop, causing major metagame shifts that all-in-all, lead to a healthier metagame, however, LC has not had an adaptation phase since ORAS came out, leading to a unhealthy metagame that looks like this.
View attachment 36159
I want you to pay attention to the fact that there is no adaptation phase, so no new threats are born, so new things can counter them, which leads to a metagame where nothing changes, and one that feels very boring, like our current LC metagame. By reintroducing Missy or Krow, they will become the new threats, so people can adapt to those new threats, so they will become worse, and the cycle can continue as it normally should. So reintroduce Krow and Missy, so LC will be set back on the right track as an ever adapting tier.

You've got some huge holes in your argument. First off, when a Pokemon in LC becomes a huge threat, its usage doesn't simply die down when it's not on the chopping block any more. Fletchling continues to be top 5 in usage. Sure, if you use nothing but teams consisting of Rock/Steel/Electric pokemon, then yeah, Fletchling's not gonna be as good, but that's not the case. A Pokemon doesn't just magically go from being one of, if not the best in the metagame, to completely out of obscurity for no reason.

Also, I really dislike the mentality of "balanced metagame = unhealthy". If a metagame is balanced, it means that we have various options that we are able to choose from to create a more enjoyable metagame. I've never understood the idea that only having 12-18 viable Pokemon is somehow better than 30+. Is it because you don't understand how to prepare for too many threats, so you'd rather just have a small handful of Pokemon to work with? (BTW, this isn't directed at you, but is a general statement). Is it because you like a two-tiered meta that consists only of 'The Big Baddy' and 'The Anti-Big Baddy'? I've played other metagames where this exists, and let me tell you: It's boring to me.

If you think this metagame is boring, then try looking at battling from a different perspective. Try playing the player instead of playing the game. When you do that, you realise how many fun options you have available, and you love it. Trust me.

 

[Berks]

How many of you have actually fought BP on a consistent basis? I just ran the ladder recent on two alts and didn't see it once. Similarly, I've yet to see it in the tournament scene such as LCPL, so I fail to see any sort of problem it has been causing. Let's not try and make a problem out of nothing. If it becomes a problem we'll ban it, but sorry guys, just because you got donked and lost to BP one match doesn't mean it is broken.

What my ladder runs did teach me though, and I'm probably going to get a lot of shit for this, is how much of a cunt mienfoo is. It's not just annoying, I firmly believe it forces a player to play in a way that is uncompetitive. It comes from the sense that mienfoo simply does not die outside of Gothic a trapping it. In the hands of a good player, mienfoo will stick around for the entirety of a match, often being the last mon even, walling / beating whatever it needs to despite any optimal plays by the opponent. With its bulk and regenerator, it can switched into essentially any attacking move without repercussions, scout an opponents move, and just switch out. This can be done over and over again throughout a match, and as long as the mienfoo player isn't stupid, can be used to dominate a match without trying hard at all. Despite regenerator and it's bulk, Mienfoo also gets one of the best offensive move pools in the game, making expecting it's bulky pivot set game breaking if it is indeed offensive and carrying something like stone edge or high jump kick. The more and more I think about it, the more and more I believe mienfoo might be what's holding the metagame back. It's not broken in the traditional sense, but to me it might be one the most uncompetitive mons ever in lc.

Also I don't want to hear any of this "mienfoo is good for the metagame" bullshit. That's just a safety blanket to hide behind simply because mienfoo can switch into most of the metagame without fear. That does not make it good for the meta, in fact imo it makes it bad.

I'd also like to point out that Mienfoo is listed both as the best offensive and defensive poke in the LC Role Compendium. That seems just a little bit odd to me, and, while not broken in the traditional sense, a mon with this much viability and versatility - yes, versatility, as Foo can run *nonstandard moves* to beat a bunch of its checks - surely seems a bit tough to handle. IMO, foo sounds like Missy 2.0, although slightly less 'broken'. I think the only reason we don't get rid of foo is that we've all either:

• gotten too used to playing scrub players with crappy mienfoos
• gotten used to playing it so long that we underestimate it
• never really seen anything other than standard foo and maybe scarf

IMO, foo is the most ban worthy thing in the meta right now for many reasons, but this in particular:

"it can switched into essentially any attacking move without repercussions, scout an opponents move, and just switch out. This can be done over and over again throughout a match, and as long as the mienfoo player isn't stupid, can be used to dominate a match without trying hard at all."

That is a bit too good to me.

 

[Heysup]

"it can switched into essentially any attacking move without repercussions, scout an opponents move, and just switch out. This can be done over and over again throughout a match, and as long as the mienfoo player isn't stupid, can be used to dominate a match without trying hard at all."

That is a bit too good to me.

It is also a gross ass exaggeration. It actually can't. Especially after getting Knocked Off it's really frail.

Of course, you could say "good players avoid Knock Off" but then you've basically beaten your own argument by admitting it can't switch into any (even common) moves.

*mind fuck*

 

[Berks]

"essentially any attacking move"

also it can straight up take a knock off any day, and can at least get that health back. What good is anything that avoids Knock Off?

 

[Heysup]

"essentially any attacking move"

also it can straight up take a knock off any day, and can at least get that health back. What good is anything that avoids Knock Off?

Again, no it can't. It is now 1/3 less bulky permanently, it's not like HP where it can heal it back.

Lots of Pokemon can take Knock Off and not give much of a fuck (ie. offensive ones, sticky hold, mons of extreme bulk, etc). Mienfoo can't tank shit without Eviolite. It's 1-2HKOed by many common moves without it - it's still a good mon but loses its ability to pivot as effectively and definitely isn't the god it's being made out to be.

 

[Berks]

Again, no it can't. It is now 1/3 less bulky permanently, it's not like HP where it can heal it back.

Lots of Pokemon can take Knock Off and not give much of a fuck (ie. offensive ones, sticky hold, mons of extreme bulk, etc). Mienfoo can't tank shit without Eviolite. It's 1-2HKOed by many common moves.

This is a fair point. However, defensive foo is only one half of foo. Offensive foo either doesn't care or won't be hit by a Knock Off. On another hand, there are many other ways to handle Pawn. Ponyta is probably the best option regardless of foo anyways, and it can take a knock off any day

 

[Vileman]

Can we get bw lc krow suspect instead pls @_____@

 

[trash]

when are we banning chou switching into chou?

 

[macle]

stop shit posting ffs

 

[sam-testings]

People want to ban foo. Why? They cite that it can be very versatile, but it only runs pretty mud one set for the two different types, scarf foo and eviolite.
Eviolite Foo @ Eviolite
-Knock Off
-U turn
-Drain punch
-Taut/Fake Out/Feint (lol) /something

Scarf Foo @ Choice Scarf
-Hi Jump Kick
-Knock off
-u turn
-some filler move


These two sets are extremely limited, and compared to things banned before, they aren't even scary. Swirlix and Yangma both had multiple sets that could sweep forever, leading to their ban. Mienfoo 1)cannot sweep, and 2)Doesn't have nay reason to ban. Some people say that it can be both offensive and defensive. Well, as stated previously, once it loses its eviolite, it dies to everything in one or two shots. I seriously don't understand why you would want foo banned. It is slightly over used, but thats about it. We didn't ban fletch for being overused, so why ban foo?

 

[doomsday doink]

People want to ban foo. Why? They cite that it can be very versatile, but it only runs pretty mud one set for the two different types, scarf foo and eviolite.
Eviolite Foo @ Eviolite
-Knock Off
-U turn
-Drain punch
-Taut/Fake Out/Feint (lol) /something

Scarf Foo @ Choice Scarf
-Hi Jump Kick
-Knock off
-u turn
-some filler move


These two sets are extremely limited, and compared to things banned before, they aren't even scary. Swirlix and Yangma both had multiple sets that could sweep forever, leading to their ban. Mienfoo 1)cannot sweep, and 2)Doesn't have nay reason to ban. Some people say that it can be both offensive and defensive. Well, as stated previously, once it loses its eviolite, it dies to everything in one or two shots. I seriously don't understand why you would want foo banned. It is slightly over used, but thats about it. We didn't ban fletch for being overused, so why ban foo?

disclaimer: i'm not pro-ban on anything rn

Mienfoo's job isn't to sweep. Things aren't banned only because of their sweeping potential. Also, "slightly over used" is a huge understatement lol. Just because we didn't ban Fletchling doesn't mean we can't have a similar suspect of Mienfoo, and I'm pretty sure even during that era, Mienfoo was used more than Fletchling.

 

[Celestavian]

From someone who uses Scarfoo on pretty much every team (even more than I use Timburr), it is probably the most underrated set in the meta right now. High Jump Kick is really powerful and it makes for an excellent late-game cleaner, so long as you don't miss. Even if you do, so long as it was on a switch, you just heal off the damage with Regenerator. If you're unconcerned with longevity, Reckless gives you a move that deals just slightly less than Murkrow's LO Brave Bird, without the recoil on every attack and with much higher Speed thanks to the Scarf. Personally, I prefer Regenerator to cover misses as well as to let Mienfoo take damage early game while not compromising its sweep late game. Scarf U-turn chunks Abra and Gothita, Knock Off crushes Gastly and leaves it not helpless against Pumpkaboo and Slowpoke, and Poison Jab lets it hit Snubbull and Spritzee for some good damage. It may not be Mienfoo's job to sweep all the time, but it certainly can.

 

[boo836]

Metagame shifts effect viability and such but it's pretty absurd to say that shifting of the metagame makes a former broken Pokemon OK to use. Remember, it was banned from a metagame that was adapted SPECIFICALLY to counter it. It's illogical to thing it somehow has gotten better.

If you guys are bored go play tetris or something but don't try and compromise a balanced metagame just because you want to "spice things up".

This isn't a matter of spicing things up. If we were to retest the more suspects and rebanned them, we definitely would not have a reason to test again. You're forgetting that certain mons may also lose viability as the meta shifts. Can we honestly say that Tangma is similar? We know that Tang ought to stay banned, but we ought to ask ourselves about stuff like Yanma and maybe, MAYBE tite. We can't deny that the rise of fairies, pony, ect and generally not giving a shit about Sleep has resulted in Yanma being a worthy candidate for retest.

Tbh the only questionable part about it is Hypnoturn.

 

[Joltage]

Mienfoo most certainly can sweep and is quite excellent in performing his janitorial duties. Seriously Scarf Reckless (no reason not to run reckless on Scarfoo as it's not like it has any bulk what so ever and therefore shouldn't be taking hits anyway, imo) is great at tearing through teams once, fletch is eliminated and the fairies are weakened. That said, I don't feel that Foo is broken by any means. It's just the Lando-T of LC, Foo isn't overly broken, he's just really really good at what he does and is a very low-risk mon to just chuck on a team. (Hawkstar beat me to my Scarfoo point :[ I should really type faster)

 

[fatty]

I fail to see what clear cut counters mienfoo has. With a simple and common set of u turn / knock off / drain punch / acrobatics, most things are covered, and over the things that aren't, namely spritzee, skrelp, and snubbull, all of them hate being knocked off and are left struggling to be effective thereafter. Knocking off an opposing Foo even helps it in this case. Also, once mienfoo is knocked off, even though you can't always assume this happens every match anyways, it's still not some defensive pussy. It can still take hits, especially with dp + regen keeping it as close to 100 percent as possible.

I find it funny that it's mentioned that mienfoo is extremely limited when it has one of the best offensive and support movepools in the meta. Saying that there's only two sets available to use is as equally absurd, seeing as LO, BP, and SD + 3 Attacks are equally viable.

 

[boo836]

lmao are you people really suggesting we nerf a gimmick? I hate to be that guy but christ, get gud.