Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread!

[fatty]

Heysup I don't get how you can say all there is left to do is vote. That's completely undermining the whole process and anybody's opinion about it. The whole idea of a suspect is so we can gauge the communities thoughts on specific aspects of the metagame. How can we have possibly been doing that for the past 6 months if there has been no medium through which to voice our specific thoughts in a constructive manner. Yes there has been the metagame discussion thread but how active has that been, and that's not nearly focused enough to be considered for suspect purposes.How do you even expect us to decide who is qualified to vote for this specific suspect, there's only 4 council members as of right now. The rotating council hasn't even been put in place yet. If I wasn't part of the council I'd feel terribly cheated if we just discounted the value of the suspect system.

Also of course I have a subjective view on Mienfoo. There is no facts in this case, I can only go on my own personal views / opinions. Hell, with what you're suggesting there's no possible way I can get an objective view. I don't know know why you're hell bent on turning this into a courtroom. This is pokemon, this is supposed to be competitive 'fun', especially a metagame like Little Cup. There are no laws, there are no clear definitions to what "broken" or even "uncompetitive" means, it's all up to interpretation. We have a process in place that's here for a reason, and I want to see it out and use it to its full potential.

I'm done with this, we're starting to talk in circles and I'm not going to argue about this when it really has nothing to do with the state of the metagame.

 

[boo836]

Heysup I don't get how you can say all there is left to do is vote. That's completely undermining the whole process and anybody's opinion about it. The whole idea of a suspect is so we can gauge the communities thoughts on specific aspects of the metagame. How can we have possibly been doing that for the past 6 months if there has been no medium through which to voice our specific thoughts in a constructive manner. Yes there has been the metagame discussion thread but how active has that been, and that's not nearly focused enough to be considered for suspect purposes.How do you even expect us to decide who is qualified to vote for this specific suspect, there's only 4 council members as of right now. The rotating council hasn't even been put in place yet. If I wasn't part of the council I'd feel terribly cheated if we just discounted the value of the suspect system.

Also of course I have a subjective view on Mienfoo. There is no facts in this case, I can only go on my own personal views / opinions. Hell, with what you're suggesting there's no possible way I can get an objective view. I don't know know why you're hell bent on turning this into a courtroom. This is pokemon, this is supposed to be competitive 'fun', especially a metagame like Little Cup. There are no laws, there are no clear definitions to what "broken" or even "uncompetitive" means, it's all up to interpretation. We have a process in place that's here for a reason, and I want to see it out and use it to its full potential.

I'm done with this, we're starting to talk in circles and I'm not going to argue about this when it really has nothing to do with the state of the metagame.

The metagame discussion thread was for a while centred around potential suspects, among which being Gothita, which Heysup and I had to fight to convince others it wasn't suspect worthy. All those sorts were calling for the suspect on the grounds of them believing it was broken, and did very much include council members. As heysup stated, it's incredibly naive to say we don't approach suspect nominations with bans in mind.

Hell, we both did the same during Missy suspect when we fought for Fletchling (a position I regret).

However, this ban bias is what suspect needs. Not so it bans shit like foo that are just arbitrarily picked to satisfy a curiosity towards the metagame, but so we hastily remove unquestionably broken mons. Your method will leave us constantly scrambling to find "the healthiest metagame" in a futile search. We could get rid of Timburr, Ferro, and Ponyta and still not know whether it would be better to keep them in the metagame and ban Spritz, Foo, and Abra, repeating on into an infinite amount of choices

Oh, and uncompetitive is a well defined term. If you're referring to the whole ubers fight on STag, the only controversy was that the pro-ban camp was redefining the term for their own purposes. UncompetitivIty is, in short, those factors or methods which cause the result of the match to be determined on factors independent of the players' choices. Brokenness has long been a term for those that are characteristically part of an undesirable metagame.

 

[Heysup]

Heysup I don't get how you can say all there is left to do is vote. That's completely undermining the whole process and anybody's opinion about it. The whole idea of a suspect is so we can gauge the communities thoughts on specific aspects of the metagame. How can we have possibly been doing that for the past 6 months if there has been no medium through which to voice our specific thoughts in a constructive manner. Yes there has been the metagame discussion thread but how active has that been, and that's not nearly focused enough to be considered for suspect purposes.How do you even expect us to decide who is qualified to vote for this specific suspect, there's only 4 council members as of right now. The rotating council hasn't even been put in place yet. If I wasn't part of the council I'd feel terribly cheated if we just discounted the value of the suspect system.

Then what are these:

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/metagame-discussion-thread.3505710/page-18#post-5698662
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/metagame-discussion-thread.3505710/page-18#post-5698775
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/metagame-discussion-thread.3505710/page-18#post-5698788

Hell, just look at almost every post since August and until now. You are staring at and using the medium while denying its existence.

It's ironic that you're saying that this is undermining everybody's opinion when you're proposing we do exactly that. Do people that played an analyzed extensively a few months ago until now all of the sudden hold less valuable opinions then those bran new / recently returning members of the LC community? That's illogical at best, backwards at worst.

Also of course I have a subjective view on Mienfoo. There is no facts in this case, I can only go on my own personal views / opinions. Hell, with what you're suggesting there's no possible way I can get an objective view. I don't know know why you're hell bent on turning this into a courtroom. This is pokemon, this is supposed to be competitive 'fun', especially a metagame like Little Cup. There are no laws, there are no clear definitions to what "broken" or even "uncompetitive" means, it's all up to interpretation. We have a process in place that's here for a reason, and I want to see it out and use it to its full potential.

I'm done with this, we're starting to talk in circles and I'm not going to argue about this when it really has nothing to do with the state of the metagame.

Inb4 personal atta - shit im too slow. It's all in good "fun" I suppose! Whatever that means.....I guess we can't define it.

I am not having an argument about broken or uncompetitiveness in this thread. And I am not having an argument on the internet about subjectivity and objectivity. I said "your subjective view is irrelevant to the argument" (clearly) referring to the topic at hand. You are agreeing with me in that regard. I know it's subjective and I know it's only possible to BE subjective. Maybe this is the circle you're referring to:

Camp A: Here is a process where we nominate, examine, analyze, and vote on a suspect.

Camp B: the process does not make sense anymore - we have been examining and analyzing these Pokemon for 6 months in much more detail than we are about to in the process. Mienfoo has specifically been a topic of discussion. Having a process like this undermines everything we've done and merely adds to the possibility of fucking the metagame up based on a few peoples subjective notions. When you mix around the council enough times, eventually you'll get a different result.

A: I don't even know if Mienfoo is broken.

B: It doesn't matter if you subjectively intend to ban it, this is about the process where it allows for the banning of a Pokemon. Just because you don't plan on banning it does not mean the process makes sense.

You are always free to withdraw. That is the beauty of a forum. However, saying that "this has nothing to do with the state of the metagame" is not even remotely true. How is discussing the relevance of a process that gives the possibility of banning the most used Pokemon for...to put it lightly..."ill-defended" reasoning not impacting the state of the metagame?

I, on the other hand, am not going to watch LC, the metagame I've been defending from people calling it a joke for upwards of 7 years, become just that. Whether you think it's about fun or competitiveness does not matter. Validity is something that makes the metagame fun for good players and shouldn't be thrown away just because we are bored and ESPECIALLY shouldn't be given traction by the process which should have the primary goal of validity.

 

[kingmidas]

Oh, and uncompetitive is a well defined term. If you're referring to the whole ubers fight on STag, the only controversy was that the pro-ban camp was redefining the term for their own purposes. UncompetitivIty is, in short, those factors or methods which cause the result of the match to be determined on factors independent of the players' choices. Brokenness has long been a term for those that are characteristically part of an undesirable metagame.

Uncompetitive is far from a well defined term, but I'm not gonna go into that subjective bs. Thats not what happened at all, the controversy was pro-ban mods + jibaku were eliminating votes they deemed inefficient, on both sides, and chaos pulled a PR stunt by telling them they couldn't do it and reversing the decision. No one redefined anything, shrang and mm2 were arguing how shadow tag fits into the description. Also most of the pro-ban people used logic like " this is ubers so lets not ban anything."

 

[boo836]

Uncompetitive is far from a well defined term, but I'm not gonna go into that subjective bs. Thats not what happened at all, the controversy was pro-ban mods + jibaku were eliminating votes they deemed inefficient, on both sides, and chaos pulled a PR stunt by telling them they couldn't do it and reversing the decision. No one redefined anything, shrang and mm2 were arguing how shadow tag fits into the description. Also most of the pro-ban people used logic like " this is ubers so lets not ban anything."

You see, that'd be right on point if I was talking about the vote counting and not arguments used by the pro-ban side. There's a clear definition of uncompetitive that is consistent throughout all competitive games that pro-ban users (most notably mods) were ignoring, because the elimination of certain plays is totally up to the choices of the players. No one lost agency due to factors outside the control of themselves or their opponents, so there was no reason to consider such a matter uncompetitive. This extends even further than simple games, and into other realms such as business. No matter what, it's still a universal fucking term.

 

[macle]

Seriously, if you guys keep shit posting, I'm going to have to start infracting.

 

[Coconut]

Alright, while many of us want to consider Gothita. I'd like to bring up just trapping in general.

A suspect test is exactly what LC needs for something like trapping. While I don't exactly believe Gothita or Dig is broken, it has been getting some very noticeable attention. SPLC has been rampant with Diglett and Gothita everywhere, and it is becoming more overcentralized. In addition to that, if one trapper is banned, I don't believe that anything is stopping the other from rising in popularity. While I understand they have separate roles, they both can revenge kill to the point where that is what they are most noted for.

I would like to hear others opinions on this, while I do believe that trapping may feel like to wide of a ban. I'd ask others to think what the meta would be like without 1 trapper and leaving the other.

 

[Merritt]

Diglett's more interesting than Gothita for any sort of suspect. I mean, you could also look at Trapinch, but well...

Gothita has that whole precedent for LC UU saying it's fine, so it'd be an extreme uphill battle, to the point where it'd almost be like suspecting Fletchling (again). Diglett, on the other hand, has its one use of trap and kill, but suffers from frailty and lack of power. It overcomes this at least somewhat with its item, usually either LO or Sash, but both have their own issues. Unlike SashBra, Diglett does have its sash rendered void by hazards, leaving it vulnerable to priority or scarfers. It also has issues with its lack of power, as 55 attack isn't always enough. It often requires the things it tries to kill to be weakened. Life Orb has enough power to get around this more, but is extremely vulnerable to priority and scarfers in return. Sucker Punch helps, certainly, but doesn't hit hard enough coming off Diglett's lackluster attack without STAB.

Diglett also serves exclusively as a revenge trapper and killer, unlike Gothita, who can come in on some neutral or NVE attacks. Diglett's bulk is so poor (and uninvestable since it really wants max speed and power) that even very weak neutral attacks KO it or weaken it to the point where it can't do its job. It requires some kind of free switch, either a teammate dying, a prediction of the gods double switch, or a slow VoltTurn, in order to work. Not exactly risk free.

Is diglett very good at its job? Sure, it makes for great cores and generally does the only job it can do, but ban worthy? Not so much.

 

[cityfolk]

Bellsprout's set may be counterable at any given time, but it does not change that these mons are only covering one aspect of Bellsprout.
Remember, this was a similar issue we had faced with Meditite. It could have Honedge, Slowpoke, ect checking it, but it was impractical to run multiple Pokemon for that.
Of course, it might be true that Bellsprout can't also run more than four moves, but it's obscene that its checks and counters are radically different based on single, subtle move changes.
Sun's an incredibly powerful archetype. At the very least, we ought to look into trying to nerf it while still retaining viability (for the sake of diversity, if anything).

Except mons like lickitung, vullaby, fletchling, and porygon take out both sets? It's not like Bellsprout is something huge that people have to prepare for, like Mienfoo/Fletchling/Chinchou etc. Bellsprout is also 100% reliant on Vulpix to do it's job. A Pokémon that depenent on another to do it's job at all, simply isn't threatening enough on it's own to warrant a suspect.

 

[kingmidas]

Except mons like lickitung, vullaby, fletchling, and porygon take out both sets? It's not like Bellsprout is something huge that people have to prepare for, like Mienfoo/Fletchling/Chinchou etc. Bellsprout is also 100% reliant on Vulpix to do it's job. A Pokémon that depenent on another to do it's job at all, simply isn't threatening enough on it's own to warrant a suspect.

lickitung is a horrible mon in the current meta, missy was the only reason people would run it over porygon, and both lose if SR is up or it gets poison with sludge bomb. switching fletchling on bellsprout is asking to die. vullaby loses to LO if not sdef and thats without SR and if it has it up even SDef fails. Cityfolk, your last statement makes it sound like gen 5 OU SS + rain ban and the gen 5 banning of sun in LC was a bad idea.

 

[cityfolk]

lickitung is a horrible mon in the current meta, missy was the only reason people would run it over porygon, and both lose if SR is up or it gets poison with sludge bomb. switching fletchling on bellsprout is asking to die. vullaby loses to LO if not sdef and thats without SR and if it has it up even SDef fails. Cityfolk, your last statement makes it sound like gen 5 OU SS + rain ban and the gen 5 banning of sun in LC was a bad idea.

Except Vulpix was the weather setter, who sets sun on it's own and doesn't rely on something else to set up weather so that it can actually be usable (like bellsprout). Sun also lasted for the entire game (unless another form of weather was set) in Gen 5. Also even if Lickitung isn't great it's still a decently viable 'mon that stops both Bellsprout sets.
Barely anything switches in on Bellsprout, but the same can be said for random shit like Doduo, Cranidos, and Solosis. Bellsprout checks obviously can't switch in 100% reliably (although it's easy to predict Bellsprout's moves and play around it) but they shouldn't be switching in, just coming in to revenge Bellsprout (which can be done especially easily by Fletchling).

 

[kingmidas]

Except Vulpix was the weather setter, who sets sun on it's own and doesn't rely on something else to set up weather so that it can actually be usable (like bellsprout). Sun also lasted for the entire game (unless another form of weather was set) in Gen 5. Also even if Lickitung isn't great it's still a decently viable 'mon that stops both Bellsprout sets.
Barely anything switches in on Bellsprout, but the same can be said for Doduo, Cranidos, and Solosis. Bellsprout checks obviously can't switch in 100% reliably (although it's easy to predict Bellsprout's moves and play around it) but they shouldn't be switching in, just coming in to revenge Bellsprout (which can be done especially easily by Fletchling).

Lickitung is barely viable imo but I will not go into that. Since weather was nerfed, it lowered the use of other weather setters, helping out sun. Do not make prediction arguments they go both ways. Lastly Lo sucker punch 2hkos fletching, and Sd can Ohko. Lastly those are wallbreakers held back by their speed in solosis/crandios case and killing itself in doduo, though eviolite archen does a pretty good job dealing with it. These comparisons are cube vs exca in Ou. Though exca ain't as good as bellsprout is.

 

[cityfolk]

Lickitung is barely viable imo but I will not go into that. Since weather was nerfed, it lowered the use of other weather setters, helping out sun. Do not make prediction arguments they go both ways. Lastly Lo sucker punch 2hkos fletching, and Sd can Ohko

Except sucker punch doesn't work if the opponent switches so the fact that it 2hko's is irrelevant. I also fail to see why anyone would use sd + sucker punch when Bellsprout's special set completely outclasses the physical one. Bellsprout also doesn't force us to run "barely viable" mons like other broken mons (such as Meditite, which boo836 earlier compared to bellsprout) did. For example, Murkrow forced Aron/Shieldon/etc., Sneasel forced Makuhita, Meditite forced Honedge/Slowpoke/Exeggcute/whatever, and Swirlix forced the formerly-unviable Skrelp. Bellsprout's (aforementioned) checks are perfectly viable. I never said the aforementioned 'mons were counters but they are checks that take out Bellsprout when brought in safely, just like how there are no "counters" to plenty of other 'mons.

I also don't want to flood this thread with some 1v1 ridiculous argument about a B+ 'mon that can't do anything on it's own, so I will go on to agree with Merritty that, despite what some people think, trapping isn't suspect-worthy. Gothita is extremely frail (and has underwhelming strength) and can't come in on anything and is easily revenge killed. Diglett isn't that strong and is EXTREMELY frail and is beaten by a lot anyway. As for other trappers, Trapinch can't do anything outside of Trick Room thanks to it's unbelievably atrocious speed, and magnet pull is shit. The only other viable form of trapping outside of Goth and Diglett is pursuit trapping which isn't very popular anyway.

 

[kingmidas]

Except sucker punch doesn't work if the opponent switches so the fact that it 2hko's is irrelevant. I also fail to see why anyone would use sd + sucker punch when Bellsprout's special set completely outclasses the physical one. Bellsprout also doesn't force us to run "barely viable" mons like other broken mons (such as Meditite, which boo836 earlier compared to bellsprout) did. For example, Murkrow forced Aron/Shieldon/etc., Sneasel forced Makuhita, Meditite forced Honedge/Slowpoke/Exeggcute/whatever, and Swirlix forced the formerly-unviable Skrelp. Bellsprout's (aforementioned) checks are perfectly viable. I never said the aforementioned 'mons were counters but they are checks that take out Bellsprout when brought in safely, just like how there are no "counters" to plenty of other 'mons.

I also don't want to flood this thread with some 1v1 ridiculous argument about a B+ 'mon that can't do anything on it's own, so I will go on to agree with Merritty that, despite what some people think, trapping isn't suspect-worthy. Gothita is extremely frail (and has underwhelming strength) and can't come in on anything and is easily revenge killed. Diglett isn't that strong and is EXTREMELY frail and is beaten by a lot anyway. As for other trappers, Trapinch can't do anything outside of Trick Room thanks to it's unbelievably atrocious speed, and magnet pull is shit. The only other viable form of trapping outside of Goth and Diglett is pursuit trapping which isn't very popular anyway.

Ok so you don't grasp the fact that fletchling is KO'd by weather ball/sludge bomb majority of the time. solar beam + sucker makes them 50/50s for fletchling. Physical bellsprout is a great alternative because sucker punch + bullet seed + weather ball/knock off is amazing coverage, and if you don't run SD/growth you can run sleep powder/knock off. Not to mention it actually has a higher attack stat than special. What you are stating there is grounds for overcentralization which no one brought up, its suspect worthy/ban worthy. Honedge/slowpoke are still viable mons now so idk why you think meditite is the only reason you'd ever run them. um magnemite/tirtouga/fairies were viable and checked murkrow alongside those two shitty mons but I'll take that, but murkrow was broken in every gen so yeah it was bound to happen. Did you even play sneasel meta makuhita was more of a joke mon, people ran growlithe/pony/timburr to check it, but stop comparing bellsprout to blatantly broken mons. Only reason blara didn't instantly quick ban sneasel because he trusted the community to get done what needs to be done. Are you kidding me with the swirlix comment?? Skrelp hard checked yanma, swirlix, and soft checked tangela, it was a mon that compounded a lot of rolls like mega-scizor in OU. Not to mention other stuff checked swirlix it was just swirlix was unstoppable once it get 1-2 turns of space.

I'd compare bellsprout to mega-metagross in the sense it chooses what checks it, sucker punch handles priority users decently well, sub/sleep powder stops pawniard/slower answers like porygon. Growth if it gets going can be GG to slower teams even when sun is over.

 

[cityfolk]

Ok so you don't grasp the fact that fletchling is KO'd by weather ball/sludge bomb majority of the time. solar beam + sucker makes them 50/50s for fletchling. Physical bellsprout is a great alternative because sucker punch + bullet seed + weather ball/knock off is amazing coverage, and if you don't run SD/growth you can run sleep powder/knock off. Not to mention it actually has a higher attack stat than special. What you are stating there is grounds for overcentralization which no one brought up, its suspect worthy/ban worthy. Honedge/slowpoke are still viable mons now so idk why you think meditite is the only reason you'd ever run them. um magnemite/tirtouga/fairies were viable and checked murkrow alongside those two shitty mons but I'll take that, but murkrow was broken in every gen so yeah it was bound to happen. Did you even play sneasel meta makuhita was more of a joke mon, people ran growlithe/pony/timburr to check it, but stop comparing bellsprout to blatantly broken mons. Only reason blara didn't instantly quick ban sneasel because he trusted the community to get done what needs to be done. Are you kidding me with the swirlix comment?? Skrelp hard checked yanma, swirlix, and soft checked tangela, it was a mon that compounded a lot of rolls like mega-scizor in OU. Not to mention other stuff checked swirlix it was just swirlix was unstoppable once it get 1-2 turns of space.

I'd compare bellsprout to mega-metagross in the sense it chooses what checks it, sucker punch handles priority users decently well, sub/sleep powder stops pawniard/slower answers like porygon. Growth if it gets going can be GG to slower teams even when sun is over.

Fletchling doesn't switch in on anything. The only reason I brought up switches is because you brought up sucker punch 2hko'ing and I understand that that caused a lot of confusion so excuse me. Also the fact that bellsprout has "higher attack" is barely relevant since it's special moves are stronger anyway (although power whip is the same power as solarbeam, you mentioned bullet seed instead, so I'm not counting that). I also have never seen a physical bellsprout ever so I don't see why everyone is talking about it as if it affects the meta at all (like how people talked about natural gift shit sets with fletchling).

Just so this post isn't another complete waste of space for continuing this pointless argument, I want to say that although it may not be ban worthy, we could look at Timburr more closely (did i say that correctly?). I find that every team I build that lacks a fairy (snubbull/spritzee) or abra/goth is weak to bulk up timburr, and it is arguably one of the most threatening sweepers in little cup right now and could be looked into more since many struggle to find checks for it outside of the aforementioned few mons. I doubt it's really worth a suspect but it definitely is something to prepare & look out for.

 

[kingmidas]

Fletchling doesn't switch in on anything. The only reason I brought up switches is because you brought up sucker punch 2hko'ing and I understand that that caused a lot of confusion so excuse me. Also the fact that bellsprout has "higher attack" is barely relevant since it's special moves are stronger anyway (although power whip is the same power as solarbeam, you mentioned bullet seed instead, so I'm not counting that). I also have never seen a physical bellsprout ever so I don't see why everyone is talking about it as if it affects the meta at all (like how people talked about natural gift shit sets with fletchling).

Just so this post isn't another complete waste of space for continuing this pointless argument, I want to say that although it may not be ban worthy, we could look at Timburr more closely (did i say that correctly?). I find that every team I build that lacks a fairy (snubbull/spritzee) or abra/goth is weak to bulk up timburr, and it is arguably one of the most threatening sweepers in little cup right now and could be looked into more since many struggle to find checks for it outside of the aforementioned 3 mons. I doubt it's really worth a suspect but it definitely is something to prepare & look out for.

Learn to read, how about that. I love how you ignore SD and the fact weather ball can easily fit to allow for easy cleaning with its stronger attack stat and priority. Sun is rarely used so I don't understand why you keep bringing up the usage argument, its a plea to concede yourself. Don't compare it to natural gift sets because this isn't a one time KO thing. Its not pointless its discussion, don't end it on some lazy "this is a pointless argument" type of crap. either stop posting or move on completely this is a forum you have the glory of that.

ROFL Timburr are you kidding me, fairies/fletchling/abra/goth are on 99% of teams nowadays and those are the checks to every set, poison jab sucks and if you're running teams without any real answer to bu timburr fix your teams.

 

[Ray Jay]

So this thread is getting out of hand quickly, and by my observations, it's not really clear why. Sure, there are some differing opinions on banning philosophy here, but I think we're a little quick to get in arguments over that when we forget we're here to arrive at a good Pokemon metagame, not at ideal banning philosophy.

The way I see it, there are two sides:

- The conservative (AKA "No items, Fox Only, Final Destination"): This side is stressing the problem that if we want to be competitive, we can't technically ban things for fun or out of boredom. Naturally, people try to use words that attempt to circumvent these problems (you may see the word overcentralizing really grind the conservative's gears), and people just get more frustrated at the obfuscation. I have to admit, I see a lot of this side's points in that the metagame has a healthy number of viable strategies and if SPLC has taught us anything, it's that players that can be unpredictable or just use many strategies tend to be more successful. We have a metagame where teambuilding and battle style both give a demonstrable edge to a player, indicating competitiveness (the better player wins the majority of the time). It's tough to truly argue for bans of anything when the metagame is competitive, and blatantly broken Pokemon are long gone.

- The liberal (AKA "Rito pls"): This side is understandably upset by LC's consistent lack of diversity and the logical extreme of the conservative position, which tends towards stale Gen V LC. For these people, diversity in teambuilding is more important than "competitive" teambuilding, but not without reason: it doesn't feel good to have your tier called out during high profile matches as "LC is just Knock Off spam" or "Does everyone use Mienfoo."

I think what's important to realize, and this is something that I have spent a long time trying to grasp, is that we should not be so quick to portray or claim or accuse either side as wrong. Both sides strive for a solid, competitive metagame, but one will go through more bans to get there and the other could only very technically be seen as "more competitive." Don't let egos or philosophy or a thread you once read by Phil on "aspects of a competitive metagame" cloud your judgment as to what we are all striving for.

That being said, there is a caviat: not all discussion is healthy. To call trapping uncompetitive is false, in that trappers do not take the game out of your hands. This is because of team preview combined with the fact that all major trapping mons bar Magnemite are easily identifiable as such and can be baited or outplayed. To pose a Mienfoo ban because of usage is similarly unfounded, as usage merely demonstrates effectiveness. As I've said countless times before, we should expect good players to consistently use good Pokemon.

 

[Heysup]

Before you read this savor the ray jay post - I feel dirty spoiling the fun :(.

So this thread is getting out of hand quickly, and by my observations, it's not really clear why. Sure, there are some differing opinions on banning philosophy here, but I think we're a little quick to get in arguments over that when we forget we're here to arrive at a good Pokemon metagame, not at ideal banning philosophy.

The way I see it, there are two sides:

- The conservative (AKA "No items, Fox Only, Final Destination"): This side is stressing the problem that if we want to be competitive, we can't technically ban things for fun or out of boredom. Naturally, people try to use words that attempt to circumvent these problems (you may see the word overcentralizing really grind the conservative's gears), and people just get more frustrated at the obfuscation. I have to admit, I see a lot of this side's points in that the metagame has a healthy number of viable strategies and if SPLC has taught us anything, it's that players that can be unpredictable or just use many strategies tend to be more successful. We have a metagame where teambuilding and battle style both give a demonstrable edge to a player, indicating competitiveness (the better player wins the majority of the time). It's tough to truly argue for bans of anything when the metagame is competitive, and blatantly broken Pokemon are long gone.

- The liberal (AKA "Rito pls"): This side is understandably upset by LC's consistent lack of diversity and the logical extreme of the conservative position, which tends towards stale Gen V LC. For these people, diversity in teambuilding is more important than "competitive" teambuilding, but not without reason: it doesn't feel good to have your tier called out during high profile matches as "LC is just Knock Off spam" or "Does everyone use Mienfoo."

I don't consider myself within these descriptions, I actually think I agree with the liberal side more.

I think my problem with your descriptions comes from you siding with what you refer to as the "liberal" side quite clearly :P. The "conservative" side is described as an extreme and there is no goal besides competitiveness - but a diverse metagame can increase competitiveness and I think it's really understated. Furthermore, the liberal description is not taken to the same extreme where people think they can ban a Pokemon for starting with the letter M. I think an unmentioned goal of either side is to have a player base and be taken seriously be the rest of Smogon as well - which you sort of mention in the liberal definition but I would say that's the least of that extreme's concern.

The liberal extreme would have LC become a joke. The conservative extreme would have the metagame balanced but not necessarily fun (but not necessarily not fun). I see this as a false dichotomy.

I think it's clear by now that I think we should aim to have a diverse metagame that we have and not turn our metagame into a joke by banning things so far from the "broken" line. Frankly, if the goal is to have a diverse metagame that is on us to use diverse things because we have so many options. It's lazy to just ban a Pokemon just because we can't be bothered to figure out new ways of taking advantage of the metagame and watching the shifts.

I think what's important to realize, and this is something that I have spent a long time trying to grasp, is that we should not be so quick to portray or claim or accuse either side as wrong. Both sides strive for a solid, competitive metagame, but one will go through more bans to get there and the other could only very technically be seen as "more competitive." Don't let egos or philosophy or a thread you once read by Phil on "aspects of a competitive metagame" cloud your judgment as to what we are all striving for.

That being said, there is a caviat: not all discussion is healthy. To call trapping uncompetitive is false, in that trappers do not take the game out of your hands. This is because of team preview combined with the fact that all major trapping mons bar Magnemite are easily identifiable as such and can be baited or outplayed. To pose a Mienfoo ban because of usage is similarly unfounded, as usage merely demonstrates effectiveness. As I've said countless times before, we should expect good players to consistently use good Pokemon.

I'm not sure if you're referring to the discussion between me and fatty specifically, but to be clear, we aren't arguing about banning philosophy - at least, that's not where I claimed one side was wrong. What I was claiming is that there is a process that does not make sense for the state of the current metagame where it is not new. What was said was wrong, specifically, was to deny we have not examined Pokemon such as Mienfoo and that this process is a glorified vote.

 

[Merritt]

Ray Jay I feel like one of the issues of your idea of conservatives not striving for diversity but instead competitiveness is a bit unfair. At the moment, LC is fairly universally agreed to be balanced, and that there are many viable strategies and mons to use. The implied accusation that the "anti-ban conservatives" don't want a diverse metagame also implies the belief that the current meta isn't diverse. I can't agree with that.

There are a huge number of viable mons to use at the moment. Pretty much never before has there been a time when you could use so many different mons and still have a competitive team (insert Deino joke). There are certainly some mons that can sweep teams, like Zigzagoon, Fletchling, Bellsprout, ect, but there are multiple ways to answer them. Mienfoo for example, despite being used so often, has a fantastic answer in Spritzee, but you by no means have to use Spritzee to stop Mienfoo. Chinchou's a great answer to Fletchling, but you don't have to use Chou to beat Fletchling. You get the idea.

The number of playstyles I've seen are impressive, and the number of mons as well. Other than the things that will never be good, not ones that are being held down by something currently used, there are more competitively viable mons than not. The idea of the "liberals" to try and get to a more diverse metagame is respectable, but unless they can back up the statement with more than just vague assurances that "banning/suspecting _____ will lead to a more diverse/better meta" without being able to answer the followup of "why?" then they do the goal of competitive diversity a disservice.

 

[Shrug]

The idea of the "liberals" to try and get to a more diverse metagame is respectable, but unless they can back up the statement with more than just vague assurances that "banning/suspecting _____ will lead to a more diverse/better meta" without being able to answer the followup of "why?" then they do the goal of competitive diversity a disservice.

That's not the entire crux of the liberal argument. I can make a valid argument that something shitty like Abra should go if we want a better meta: basicly, bad players use it as a safety value when they get outplayed, and good players use it to remove risk / reward from the game. There's literally nothing that Abra adds that's beneficial to the meta. However, no liberal player will suspect Abra despite the fact that booting it would lead to a "better meta". The idea that "liberals" are only for the most fun / balanced meta is oversimplifying i feel

 

[sam-testings]

Since i will never get reqs cuz of busy schedule, i will compile what people want to be banned/suspected, and reasons why.

Baton Pass

Reasons why: It can set up relatively easily, and if the other team does not have any roar/whirlwind/haze users, then Baton Pass nearly automatically wins. Baton Pass sweeps cleanly with the same fear as baton pass in ou, and that shit was scary af. There is no magic bounce down here in ou, but there aren't a lot of good toxic spike users, and even then, toxic spikes is a pretty bad way of dealing with Baton Pass in my personal experience.

Reasons it shouldn't be banned: It is a gimmick, and it can be destroyed if you play smartly. It is apparently beaten by volt turn teams, and if you have haze sloper on your team (lol) you beat it.

Mienfoo:

Reason why: It is an overused mon that can be used for a large variety of jobs. It can be used offensively, defensively, and it has a great ability in Regenerator. It can live forever in a battle, and can keep drain punching and u turning to get health back. It can come in on nearly every pokemon not named abra, and can knock off their item, or whatever comes in, or it can u turn to gain momentum. Overall, it is a very good pokemon that excels in nearly every category.

Reasons it should not be banned: Once it loses its Eviolite, it can be killed by nearly everything not named pawniard. Just because it is overused, it should not be banned, and there are many ways to counter it such as fletchling and abra.

gothita:

Reasons why: Its sole purpose is to get rid of certain mons, so other mons can sweep, and it does this job extremely well. It can get rid of fighting types so poniard can sweep, and can also get rid of other mons so other stuff can sweep. It has the exact moves it needs to kill most of the meta, and with a scarf or expert belt, it will kill whatever it is sent in against for sure (provided the player isn't an idiot.)

Reasons why not: It really doesn't do anything other than its job, and not the best at that. It is easily revenge killed because it is choice locked into one move, and even if it isn't choice locked, it is really frail even with an eviolite. It can't lock ghosts, which means ghastly and pumpkaboo can switch out. It is also killed by a lot of the meta, and it can only run one set.


bellsprout

Reasons why: Once it is under the sun, it will sweep very cleanly, and it isn't hurt by any priority other than fletchling. It hits hard, and has a nice move pool that hits most of the meta. It has a secondary poison type which gives it nice defensive capabilities, and it can hit hard outside of sun too.

Reasons it shouldn't: It is really slow, and it dies to a lot of things that are faster than it outside of sun. It also can only function in the sun pretty much, which puts it on a timer, and has no recovery.

and listen to blajaran guys, he's right.

 

[Holiday]

Honestly unless we have a lot of opinionated people on the rotating council I highly doubt a ban will come. If you look at all the other suspects, there was a pretty clear idea as to what would be suspected (ie everyone knew during SwirlGar suspect that the two things that would be put on the block were swirlix and Gligar) Here we have a few rather vague options as to what to suspect (I'm seeing BP, Mienfoo, Bellsprout, and Chou switching into chou) lmao anyways the only thing that is even SLIGHTLY considerable to suspect is baton pass since if you don't have that fast taunt user or p/hazer you're fucked (it's not hard to put tauntfoo on lmao)

Other things I've heard from talking to various people are Sash + Magic Guard and Berry Juice + Sturdy. I don't really have an opinion on either other than that they're both good combinations. Anyone have thoughts they'd like to add?

 

[Psycho Pacifist]

Is StudyJuice really a large problem? I have seen many people that dislike it just on the idea of what is essentialy free set-up/ hazard setting or an extra life, but it isn't as difficult to play around in my experience. Nearly every team has a hazard setter nowadays, forcing you to run Rapid Spin/ Defog support. While there are good hazard removers it still forces you into a position where you have to keep hazards off of the field which from the start puts you at a disadvantage.

 

[fatty]

Inb4 personal atta - shit im too slow. It's all in good "fun" I suppose! Whatever that means.....I guess we can't define it.

If I'm correct in assuming that you were perceiving the courtroom comment as a personal attack, I truly didn't mean it as one. If that is how it was taken, then I'm sorry.


More on topic, Mienfoo is the only legitimate thing I see as of right now to possibly being suspected. Everything else, in my opinion, does not compare to the level of dominance of match that Mienfoo has.

First off, Bellsprout is good for a flash-in-the pan sweep once in a while against, usually, poorly prepared teams. It simply requires too much support and precise play to get enough use out of it, and even then it's on a timer and lacks OHKO power when not set up, something hard to do with such terrible bulk and without Sleep Powder. If you do manage to become fully supported and boosted up, you still have to contend with strong priority such as sucker punch and Fletchling, and something still probably walling you.

As for Timburr, yeah it's a strong fighter but it lacks the traits to be a consistent threat. To start, It has no recovery outside of Drain Punch, which is unreliable at best. If you're even gonna consider it a "sweeping" threat, it must be running Bulk Up + DP + Mach Punch + Knock Off, which, like has been mentioned, is hard walled by Fairies and even taken advantage of by some Poison. If a player can manage to get past the aforementioned threats, Timburr still has to contend with being outsped by almost literally everything that would bother to run speed, with Mach Punch the only real way of remedying this. This low speed makes being Knocked Off almost inevitable, meaning faster Mon's that aren't terribly weak to Mach Punch always have a chance of taking it out.

 

[Shrug]

Other things I've heard from talking to various people are Sash + Magic Guard

Cheek Pouch bby that's pretty much just me, if anyone else wants to join the campaign i'd welcome them though. Here's why i hate Abra so much: like trapping, it makes pokemon a fundamentally different game, but unlike trapping, there are no positives that can be taken from it. I hate to dichotomize but it makes the argument simpler, so here goes: there are two uses for Abra, the "bad player" way and the "good player" way.

The bad player way focuses on using Abra as a way to not have to play well; he can allow anything to happen and be like "hurr durr abra hurr" and the player setting up has no way of combatting that, a fact that can be said about surprisingly little in the metagame. Checks and counters to setup mons can be worn down and eliminated; however, the nature of Abra means that doesn't happen. The only thing that can beat Abra in terms of setup mons (im discounting the rare few which naturally get by, such as shellder) is setting with two mons. Sturdy can be beaten with hazards, which creates an interesting subgame which can decide battles. Both the weakening of checks and hazard wars are examples of higher-level play while Abra is not.


Good players who use Abra say they use it for a different reason. I remember in an old Ray Jay thread Hawkstar talking about how he uses Abra to leverage battle situations; the example he used (i think) was bulk up wars between timburrs where he won if his timburr prevailed and didn't lose if it failed because he had abra on his team. I've always assumed an inherent part of pokemon decisions was risk / reward, and the use of Abra seems to remove that, turning specific situations into: 50% win vs. little risk. Idk it just seems shitty to me to turn the game into "imma flip this coin twice / three times and if i get heads once i'll win" where in this case setup mons are the coin and heads is winning a specific 50/50 situation where you're saved by Abra if you lose.

In terms of the metagame as a whole, pretty much nothing would change, I feel "safe" balance v-turns would go down slightly because setup mons would be more viable but people already love that shit, i mean maybe there would be less Stunky but it's still a fantastic way to murk Gastly so it'd see similar usage. Really Abra is sort of an anomaly: it doesn't contribute to team synergy at all, it's only used as a panic button or way to leverage other teams.

Before I have my post ripped up by opportunistic users looking for a meaningful contribution (dudes this was me very recently) note i did not: 1) Claim Abra was overpowered or 2) Claim Abra restricts teambuilding. If you're going to address flaws in this post, of which there is likely a great number, please try and stick to the confines of my argument. I understand Abra does not meet the standard criteria for "broken" and that banning it is a ridiculous proposition for which there is no precedent; however, i feel we'd have a better, more fun metagame without it for little cost to our current balanced tier.