Metagame NP: RU Stage 7: Of Moons, Birds, and Monsters (BOTH SUSPECTS BANNED, DISCUSSING NEW META)

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Empress

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Okay so here's my two cents now that I've gotten reqs:

Pangoro: Neutral but leaning No Ban. I know I'm in a vast minority here but after fighting it and using it I'm really just underwhelmed. Does it hit hard? Hell yeah it does. Not a lot wants to go into it at all and knock off bugs a lot of things. However, it's ridiculously easy to revenge kill. It doesn't have any priority, and it has a straight pitiful speed tier for a sweeper. I'm really just not impressed by any means.
Almost the exact same thing could be said about Dragalge. Dragalge had low Speed and was indeed easy to revenge kill with the right mon, but that was irrelevant due to the fact that it had almost no switch-ins. Moreover, don't forget that Panda can switch out of a bad matchup, and it's easy to switch in and out multiple times to net multiple kills during the match. Unless you want to revenge kill it with Duggy, which Duggy can only do if its Sash isn't broken.
 

blinkie

¯\_( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)_/¯ dank meme crew
Okay so here's my two cents now that I've gotten reqs:

Pangoro: Neutral but leaning No Ban. I know I'm in a vast minority here but after fighting it and using it I'm really just underwhelmed. Does it hit hard? Hell yeah it does. Not a lot wants to go into it at all and knock off bugs a lot of things. However, it's ridiculously easy to revenge kill. It doesn't have any priority, and it has a straight pitiful speed tier for a sweeper. I'm really just not impressed by any means.
Pangoro is much less of a problem for offense but it can basically 6-0 stall, which is why there was barely any stall teams on the ladder. Although it is somewhat slow, you can still see its overcentralizing effect as now speed creep on Cresselia and Golbat is basically required. Although it is easy to revenge kill, it is easy for the opponent to switch Panda out again, and later bring it back in. It does not even worry too much about spikespam which is big on ladder, since it can continuously heal with Drain Punch. Not to mention each time you bring something in, you even have to run the risk of it using SD(for example, SD on Aromatisse and it dies from Gunk Shot). The user of Pangoro does not lose much from mispredicting but if you mess up, something is dying.
 

nv

The Lost Age
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I just wanted to drop by and talk about a Pokemon I find very threatening and annoying in the current meta:



This thing is so fking annoying being able to easily bulk a ton of moves while also being able to cripple a lot of Pokemon via Thunder Wave or Toxic. I truly feel that this could be the next possible suspect as I feel this was a lot bigger threat than the two current suspects lol. Plus with Panda being banned soon, I assume, it is losing a big check. Overall I do believe this thing is a major threat as its bulk is incomparable and even though Knock Off runs rampant and Pursuit / Sucker Punch mindgames is still a thing, Cresselia can bulk any of those unboosted and heal the damage off with Moonlight or cripple the opposing Pokemon with its status moves. It also gives a second chance to any set up sweeper thanks to its signature move, Lunar Dance. All in all I can easily see this being the next suspect after Panda and Tres stay or get banned.

P.S. fk Regen Cores lol
 

Holiday

on my best behavior
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I just wanted to drop by and talk about a Pokemon I find very threatening and annoying in the current meta:



This thing is so fking annoying being able to easily bulk a ton of moves while also being able to cripple a lot of Pokemon via Thunder Wave or Toxic. I truly feel that this could be the next possible suspect as I feel this was a lot bigger threat than the two current suspects lol. Plus with Panda being banned soon, I assume, it is losing a big check. Overall I do believe this thing is a major threat as its bulk is incomparable and even though Knock Off runs rampant and Pursuit / Sucker Punch mindgames is still a thing, Cresselia can bulk any of those unboosted and heal the damage off with Moonlight or cripple the opposing Pokemon with its status moves. It also gives a second chance to any set up sweeper thanks to its signature move, Lunar Dance. All in all I can easily see this being the next suspect after Panda and Tres stay or get banned.

P.S. fk Regen Cores lol
Yeah I didn't really wanna say this but the thing is getting stupid to deal with especially with the potetntial loss of two of Her Majesty's checks (SubToxic Bird stalled it out)

Also imma edit in something real quick about MGlalie so just hold up thanks.

Alright so MGlalie has been a mega that has interested me since I first saw it, and while some tier changes are bringing it (hopefully) the departure of two of his big scares. However because of these departures, rises like Cobalion, MSteelix, and Lee have also been keeping it from becoming a true monster. All in all, you guys definitely need to watch this thing. It's lowkey becoming a huge threat.
 
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Yeah agreeing with NV and Cheek Pouch, once this suspect's results come back there's a very good chance moonduck is gonna be even dumber in the tier. Nothing can touch SubCM, the wall set is nothing short of straight up a pain for every team. It needs to go ASAP (tbh it probably needed to go more than this set of suspects at least imo)
 
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zbr

less than 99% acc = never hit
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Close to reqs now so I guess I should post my thoughts on the suspects.
can we just suspect tyrantrum instead? also the ladder is infested with galbia's team D:

Before he was suspected, he pretty much helped me ladder my way up for reqs during the previous suspect test with his zero switch in capabilities. Feeling weak? Run Choice Band
. Feeling like a fairy slayer? Run Roseli Berry
. Feeling like stall is a problem? Run SD Lum
. All of it's sets have close to zero switch ins and they have a lot of pure nuking power that it is crazy. Its swords dance set (which was the set I used the most) gives most stall teams a run for their money as it has enough speed to outspeed mons used on stall teams (except for fast cress) and mold breaker allows it to bypass unaware, which means that quagsire's unaware won't be able to stop stall from being decimated by it. It's harder to play Pangoro against offensive team but once you get it in freely on mons (plus it has decent bulk with decent typing in the tier giving a lot of free opportunities) you pretty much get to kill something or heavily dent it. He is not as overwhelming (in practice) as he used to be at the start of ORAS because of how we have adapted to it but that pretty much shows how much of a problem he is was to the tier. I wanna say ban but after laddering up a bunch (with teams that consciously included pangoro counters/checks and team that consciously excluded these checks) I want to say that it really isn't as big of a problem as before and I would like to conclude that he should not be banned.

Moltres has always been a strong centralizing force in the metagame. With MPidge gone, we are back into the whole blind burd era in which this flaming chicken tries to burn and confuse it's way to the top. Scarftres demolishes offence and is checked by AV Kabu and we all know how sturdy Kabu is as an AV user. LOtres (With or without sub) is freaking disgusting and is able to tear balance and stall teams apart. If you're feeling like a chicken, you can run Air Slash and still get results. Stall teams have to resort to running things like Regirock, which is usually outclassed by Rhyperior, because it can absorb HP Grass from LO 3 attacks Tres with more ease (key word here is more) and that kinda shows how overcentralizing it is. Hazard removal is becoming uncommon in the tier but that doesn't reduce how broken Tres is. With access to strong and reliable recovery as well as good bulk, it mitigates the problem of SR. Furthermore, it is unaffected by spikes and can beat common SR users (Rhyperior, MLix, Omastar, Zong, Coba, etc.) hence, it can reduce a lot of pressure on the Tres user side and the opponent is even more pressured to set up SR quickly. Unlike Panda, he has a great speed tier of 90 and has access to a good momentum gaining move (Panda gets parting shot too but he cannot fully utilise it unless you're running band/scarf and scarf panda is p bad) and is able to beat it's checks and counters unless they are faster or if you're running aids wave on things like Slowking or Cress. Overall, I think it is safe to say that it is really warping the tier to the point in which you are pressured to get hazards up asap against it and even then you aren't able to guarantee the win against this. You'd end up having to pack a team full of checks and this just goes to show how overcentralizing it is and how much it deserves the ban.
 
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tehy

Banned deucer.
To be honest, my thoughts on the suspects are... Well, Moltres is really hard to take on effectively, with there being not that many Pokemon that can effectively switch into the Life Orb set; like Somalia said up there though, everyone's using Scarf (which apparently tears apart offense, but isn't threatening to anything semi-defensive really). And yeah. Pangoro can cause a lot of damage, though it's only Lum SD that really scares me (tears my current build apart to hell and back, which i need to fix) and yet I haven't seen that many of those.

If anything, I've taken heart from Nails' post two pages back, because Exploud seriously limits teambuilding, to an almost ridiculous degree. What can actually switch into it that also fits on stall?

SpD Cresselia (Which isn't the onsite spread; onsite spread always 2shotted after rocks and sometimes before then. And can't do much back except get stalled out of Moonlights. I actually plan to use this at some point, but still.)
Rhyperior (Often 3-shotted by boomburst)
Restalk Escavalier (does anyone use this? Seen it getting an analysis and it looks bangin', but also never seen it on ladder so idk. Also might die to 3 boombursts if rocks are up, i.e. Boomburst, switch out, switch in and Boomburst + Boomburst).
Mega Steelix (same as Escav.)
Ferroseed (can't take 3, can't really answer back, can't regenerate on a grass-type switch-in. Keeping in mind it's max Def, if someone has a pet spread they use feel free to post it).

And the holy trinity, I guess?

Bronzong
Registeel
Regirock

Outside of that, I guess you have really obscure or bad stuff (SpD Doublade! SpD Assault Vest Slowking! Something I haven't heard of since it's obscure! Probopass! Carbink, which I plan to test at some point but kinda looks like shit!!!!!).

To be honest, when I'm running stall, I really feel like I have to run one of the above three. I'm currently just flying by the seat of my pants with M-lix, and it works OK on occasion, but I mostly relies on clutch wishpasses in order to survive.

Keep in mind that many of these things are basically GG'd by the right move on the switch-in; the holy trinity can tank even a super effective move and keep on kicking, but often have trouble really dealing damage back and have no reliable recovery to speak of; this holds true for a lot of Exploud's stops. Curse Registeel is really about all you can viably run and not give a fuck about exploud.

Keep in mind that a lot of these mons are toasted, surfed N turfed, or...focus blast verbed, into oblivion; again, only Registeel out of all of these can really take 1 SE coverage (or SpD Cressy?), then come back in and tank 2 boombursts, but again, what can he do back?

Never been great at telling if something is broken because I just adapt to it and keep my head down, but I will say this; Exploud really does restrict stall teambuilding to a large degree, and often wins in spite of this. Although it is worth noting that you have to run many of these mons for Mega Abomasnow (you can at least run Doublade for that though, and its SR weakness helps a lot, as does it not being as much of a giant nuke and having so many exploitable weaknesses). At the least, Exploud merits some discussion. I think i'll be voting neutral on both suspects, but i'm going to go ladder for a while and see how I feel about each suspect.
 

Holiday

on my best behavior
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To be honest, my thoughts on the suspects are... Well, Moltres is really hard to take on effectively, with there being not that many Pokemon that can effectively switch into the Life Orb set; like Somalia said up there though, everyone's using Scarf (which apparently tears apart offense, but isn't threatening to anything semi-defensive really). And yeah. Pangoro can cause a lot of damage, though it's only Lum SD that really scares me (tears my current build apart to hell and back, which i need to fix) and yet I haven't seen that many of those.

If anything, I've taken heart from Nails' post two pages back, because Exploud seriously limits teambuilding, to an almost ridiculous degree. What can actually switch into it that also fits on stall?

SpD Cresselia (Which isn't the onsite spread; onsite spread always 2shotted after rocks and sometimes before then. And can't do much back except get stalled out of Moonlights. I actually plan to use this at some point, but still.)
Rhyperior (Often 3-shotted by boomburst)
Restalk Escavalier (does anyone use this? Seen it getting an analysis and it looks bangin', but also never seen it on ladder so idk. Also might die to 3 boombursts if rocks are up, i.e. Boomburst, switch out, switch in and Boomburst + Boomburst).
Mega Steelix (same as Escav.)
Ferroseed (can't take 3, can't really answer back, can't regenerate on a grass-type switch-in. Keeping in mind it's max Def, if someone has a pet spread they use feel free to post it).

And the holy trinity, I guess?

Bronzong
Registeel
Regirock

Outside of that, I guess you have really obscure or bad stuff (SpD Doublade! SpD Assault Vest Slowking! Something I haven't heard of since it's obscure! Probopass! Carbink, which I plan to test at some point but kinda looks like shit!!!!!).

To be honest, when I'm running stall, I really feel like I have to run one of the above three. I'm currently just flying by the seat of my pants with M-lix, and it works OK on occasion, but I mostly relies on clutch wishpasses in order to survive.

Keep in mind that many of these things are basically GG'd by the right move on the switch-in; the holy trinity can tank even a super effective move and keep on kicking, but often have trouble really dealing damage back and have no reliable recovery to speak of; this holds true for a lot of Exploud's stops. Curse Registeel is really about all you can viably run and not give a fuck about exploud.

Keep in mind that a lot of these mons are toasted, surfed N turfed, or...focus blast verbed, into oblivion; again, only Registeel out of all of these can really take 1 SE coverage (or SpD Cressy?), then come back in and tank 2 boombursts, but again, what can he do back?

Never been great at telling if something is broken because I just adapt to it and keep my head down, but I will say this; Exploud really does restrict stall teambuilding to a large degree, and often wins in spite of this. Although it is worth noting that you have to run many of these mons for Mega Abomasnow (you can at least run Doublade for that though, and its SR weakness helps a lot, as does it not being as much of a giant nuke and having so many exploitable weaknesses). At the least, Exploud merits some discussion. I think i'll be voting neutral on both suspects, but i'm going to go ladder for a while and see how I feel about each suspect.
Based nigga: Tehy, touched on this but I really do think it should be highlighted a little bit more. Although you're clicking Boomburst 90% of the time, it has 3 other moves to get past it's switchins. A Scrappy Focus Blast bones a ton of these steel type fuckbois, and I guess Fire Blast catches Escavalier. All together you still have another free move kek. Exploud is a threat to any team when given the chance, and it's a definite threat to stall. Get some spikes up (haven't been playing RU lately besides for reqs, but I think hazards Offense is the new "it" playstyle) and Exploud will certainly leave his mark on the battlefield.
 
Observations playing for reqs:

  • Most difficult to deal with mons: 1. Cress, 2. Pang, 3. Molt
  • Cress was only frustrating when it was sub CM, but that was insanely common on the ladder. I was playing semi-stall, and was outsped often so I'd have to break a sub to get a status off if possible, or catch it on the switch. Frustrating to say the least, but to be fair the team I built was really weak to it. Usually beat it by playing mind-games and baiting a switch (i.e. having Alo Toxic after being brought in on a Emboar w/ 25%, etc.) to catch it with an appropriate status. If it was last mon I usually rammed Emboar into it enough to break through.
  • Pangoro was frustrating because switching into Knock Off is brutal. And for a team that relied either on Toxic stalling, or burning and Wish-Protecting/Regenerating, SD Lum was heinous to deal with. Scarf Emboar saved me a lot, but still was a bit of a pain in the ass to deal with. Leaning toward a ban.
  • Moltres frankly wasn't terribly difficult. I had a decently easy time keeping SR on the field (was running a bulky sp.def support Claydol lol) and was able to catch it very often with statuses. Emboar ran head smash and with a little bit of prediction was able to knock it out often (i.e. bring Emboar in on Amoongus, Head Smash on the switch). The only frustration was that Moltres ran right through my Regenerator core because I was using Alo and Amoongus, if I had switched the former out for Slowking I'd have been able to handle it a little better but whatever I made the team about 10 minutes before starting the laddering lol.
So in summation: Cress needs to be banned I think (more than the other two lol), Pang leaning toward a ban, Molt no ban
 

Don Honchkrorleone

Happy Qwilfish the nightmare
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To be honest, my thoughts on the suspects are... Well, Moltres is really hard to take on effectively, with there being not that many Pokemon that can effectively switch into the Life Orb set; like Somalia said up there though, everyone's using Scarf (which apparently tears apart offense, but isn't threatening to anything semi-defensive really). And yeah. Pangoro can cause a lot of damage, though it's only Lum SD that really scares me (tears my current build apart to hell and back, which i need to fix) and yet I haven't seen that many of those.

If anything, I've taken heart from Nails' post two pages back, because Exploud seriously limits teambuilding, to an almost ridiculous degree. What can actually switch into it that also fits on stall?

SpD Cresselia (Which isn't the onsite spread; onsite spread always 2shotted after rocks and sometimes before then. And can't do much back except get stalled out of Moonlights. I actually plan to use this at some point, but still.)
Rhyperior (Often 3-shotted by boomburst)
Restalk Escavalier (does anyone use this? Seen it getting an analysis and it looks bangin', but also never seen it on ladder so idk. Also might die to 3 boombursts if rocks are up, i.e. Boomburst, switch out, switch in and Boomburst + Boomburst).
Mega Steelix (same as Escav.)
Ferroseed (can't take 3, can't really answer back, can't regenerate on a grass-type switch-in. Keeping in mind it's max Def, if someone has a pet spread they use feel free to post it).

And the holy trinity, I guess?

Bronzong
Registeel
Regirock

Outside of that, I guess you have really obscure or bad stuff (SpD Doublade! SpD Assault Vest Slowking! Something I haven't heard of since it's obscure! Probopass! Carbink, which I plan to test at some point but kinda looks like shit!!!!!).

To be honest, when I'm running stall, I really feel like I have to run one of the above three. I'm currently just flying by the seat of my pants with M-lix, and it works OK on occasion, but I mostly relies on clutch wishpasses in order to survive.

Keep in mind that many of these things are basically GG'd by the right move on the switch-in; the holy trinity can tank even a super effective move and keep on kicking, but often have trouble really dealing damage back and have no reliable recovery to speak of; this holds true for a lot of Exploud's stops. Curse Registeel is really about all you can viably run and not give a fuck about exploud.

Keep in mind that a lot of these mons are toasted, surfed N turfed, or...focus blast verbed, into oblivion; again, only Registeel out of all of these can really take 1 SE coverage (or SpD Cressy?), then come back in and tank 2 boombursts, but again, what can he do back?

Never been great at telling if something is broken because I just adapt to it and keep my head down, but I will say this; Exploud really does restrict stall teambuilding to a large degree, and often wins in spite of this. Although it is worth noting that you have to run many of these mons for Mega Abomasnow (you can at least run Doublade for that though, and its SR weakness helps a lot, as does it not being as much of a giant nuke and having so many exploitable weaknesses). At the least, Exploud merits some discussion. I think i'll be voting neutral on both suspects, but i'm going to go ladder for a while and see how I feel about each suspect.
Wait a sec... Are you implying that RU shouldn't have any stallbreaker? How are people that doesn't want to play stall beat stall then? Why center RU around stall?

Editing later to rant about cress since I need to poop now :]
 
When I laddered, I encountered ~4 Pangoros so I don't really have a lot of experience with that thing so I'll focus my post on Moltres.

~

Ok, after reading other people's posts, it's safe to say that Moltres's common counter / checks are generally demolished by HP Grass, and anything that can take Moltres's STAB combo generally can't do anything back since they're so passive. What makes it more annoying is that Moltres has a recovery move, increasing its longitivtiy. Offense is destroyed by scarf sets, and stall is ruined by its SubToxic set. So the problem with Moltres is that its unpredictable, and depending on its set, it can (almost) single handedly destroy the archetype it chooses. People who argue that Rocks hurt it are right, but how exactly do you keep rocks on your opponent's field throughout the whole match if you're running something other than HO? It simply isn't possible, and every Stealth Rocker in RU will get worn down eventually because they all lack reliable recovery. Add it all up and you have a game centralizing mon that's better off banned. Dekt Fireburd

 
Moltres: I'm not as big a fan of Scarf Moltres as most people, as the offensively-inclined teams it will usually be used on have less turns to clear SR than other playstyles, and Scarf Moltres has no recovery. I've heard about how this set "tears apart" opposing offense, but really, how many times have your offensive teams actually gotten destroyed by it? Even offense can fit soft checks like Druddigon, Eelektross, and Clawitzer, which are not OHKOed by Hurricane and can easily switch into Fire Blast once. Offense can usually afford to sac something that you don't need mid-game in a worst-case scenario. Balanced and Stall teams can't sacrifice mons as easily, but those playstyle can fit Cress / Spec def Golbat / AV Slowking / other hard checks more easily. Don't get me wrong, Moltres can certainly clean up late game (just like many other Scarf users can). It's possible Moltres can start cleaning slightly earlier than something like a Scarf Rotom forme can due to the sheer power of its STAB moves, but because said moves are inaccurate, Moltres is also riskier to pull off a clean with. It's a good scarfer, but has too many flaws for it to single-handedly tear apart offense.

Life Orb is just scary and is capable of performing decently (with Pursuit support bc fuck Slowking) vs. every playstyle. The ability to switch moves mean that Kabutops / Omastar / Rhyperior are much shakier checks than before. How good of a wallbreaker is this? The only safe switchins besides niche sets like AV Meloetta are Assault Vest Slowking, Specially Defensive Slowking, Specially Defensive Cresselia, Assault Vest Eelektross, TWave Uxie (sorta), and Lanturn. That isn't very many, but all of those Pokemon are pretty good and it isn't asking for the moon to fit one of them on your team. The guessing game your opponent has trying to figure out your Moltres item also favors the Moltres user. It's an excellent set, but the same issue that plague the Scarf set (accuracy, SR weakness) remain.

SubToxic is the last set I've seen, and it is also very good. Like the LO set, SR isn't death because it will be able to spend a turn Roosting back its health. Smacking bulky Water types and especially Assault Vest users with Toxic is really satisfying, and no Toxic-immune Pokemon in RU wants to eat a Fire Blast. Nice set, but not incredibly difficult to play around. Moltres is borderline, but for now I lean ban because of its power and versatility.


Pangoro: Completely massacres defensive teams while serving as a decent Doublade answer vs. offense. Cripples its own checks with a ridiculously powerful STAB Knock Off. Bulky Fairies just die to +2 Gunk Shot or +2 Life Orb Iron Head. If it were complete deadweight vs. offense I'd lean No Ban, but a well-played Panda will usually get a kill vs. any playstyle thanks to its typing and movepool. Being ridiculous vs. one playstyle and still very good against others = ban imo.
 

Molk

Godlike Usmash
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Hey guys, this is sort of out of the blue, but i just wanted to let you all know that i'm going to be giving a one day extension to this suspect test.

User: atomicllamas brought up to me that while it's been exactly two weeks since the OP of the suspect thread was posted, that due to a tagging mishap it actually took a full *two days* for the suspect ladder to get set up, which means that it's only been possible to actually get reqs for 12 days. Because of that, i think it's only fair that i give you guys a little more time to get the reqs.

Good luck and happy laddering! :).
 
Pangoro is a Pokemon I honestly did not encounter much in my laddering session (note the session, not sessions). However, I do feel I have enough information to decide on my stance. Really, I did not think it was broken when fighting it. Sure, it's incredibly powerful and gives Stall a rough time, but it feels so hard to keep alive when facing offense. Simply offensive pressure makes it difficult for Pangoro to effective. Then again, Knock Off and Superpower are so powerful and Choice Band makes it even worse! Parting Shot is a great momentum grabber and makes Pangoro hard to actually KO because it keeps momentum up so well. I'm just not sure on this one, so I'll be voting abstain.

Moltres is the other suspect, and I'm incredibly certain on this one. Moltres is very broken because it's raw power and Hurricane and Fire Blast hitting nearly everything in the entire tier for extremely solid damage. Hell, Hurricane is able to break Cresselia's +1 Substitute! Fire Blast and Hurricane being launched off everywhere make it so hard to switch into. There's also Pressure, which is insanely overlooked. It allows it to stall out the aforementioned Cresselia by forcing it out of Moonlight, and can be helpful in general against other Pokemon. Roost is very useful and completely makes up for a Stealth Rock weakness, while removing any Life Orb damage as well. Moltres will definitely be receiving my vote for ban.
 

aVocado

@ Everstone
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Hey guys, this is sort of out of the blue, but i just wanted to let you all know that i'm going to be giving a one day extension to this suspect test.

User: atomicllamas brought up to me that while it's been exactly two weeks since the OP of the suspect thread was posted, that due to a tagging mishap it actually took a full *two days* for the suspect ladder to get set up, which means that it's only been possible to actually get reqs for 12 days. Because of that, i think it's only fair that i give you guys a little more time to get the reqs.

Good luck and happy laddering! :).
Wow so u listen to llamas but not me ;_;

thats awesome though, means i have time for reqs :] thanks!

Edit: unfixable Pressure doesn't work on non-attacking moves iirc so it actually doesnt "stall out" moonlight :o
 

atomicllamas

but then what's left of me?
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Wow so u listen to llamas but not me ;_;

thats awesome though, means i have time for reqs :] thanks!

Edit: unfixable Pressure doesn't work on non-attacking moves iirc so it actually doesnt "stall out" moonlight :o
I'm cuter than you so obv

Also Pressure affects moves that target the Pokemon w/ pressure. So Moonlight isn't pressure stalled, but toxic or will-o-wisp are.
 
Wow so u listen to llamas but not me ;_;

thats awesome though, means i have time for reqs :] thanks!

Edit: unfixable Pressure doesn't work on non-attacking moves iirc so it actually doesnt "stall out" moonlight :o
Heh, just tired I guess. Never mind that, it can still Pressure out Moonblast which doesn't 2HKO at +6 and win via Roost.
 

Holiday

on my best behavior
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Sorry to interrupt all this shit, but the Johto HA Starters including Sheer Force Gator were released early literally right now. I don't know if this has been programmed into Showdown yet but there you go.
Sheer Force Gatr will be like A+ and flash fire Typhlosion will have a stupidly strong Eruption.

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 265-313 (59.6 - 70.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 208-246 (46.8 - 55.4%) -- 16.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

It can out damage one of the top tier, hardest hitting water types in OU, and can boost faster w/ SD.

252 SpA Choice Specs Flash Fire Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Cresselia: 292-345 (65.7 - 77.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Damage lmao.
 
As someone who never plays RU but really wants to get into it now, I've been running some calcs and Gator's looking like a ridiculous wallbreaker with SD that nothing can really switch into with ease.

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Crunch vs. 252 HP / 152+ Def Cresselia: 382-450 (86 - 101.3%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 503-597 (116.1 - 137.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Steelix: 398-471 (112.4 - 133%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Crunch vs. 120 HP / 136 Def Alomomola: 286-337 (57 - 67.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Doublade: 263-309 (81.6 - 95.9%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Aromatisse: 368-434 (90.6 - 106.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

And that's just Waterfall and Crunch. It has other moves up it's sleeve like Low Kick/Superpower and Ice Punch for coverage, Dragon Dance if you really want to try a sweep, Double Dance (Agility + SD) if you're really fuckin crazy, and of course Aqua Jet for priority.

I'd also like to mention that with Sheer Force, Crunch reaches a base power of 104, so there's literally no reason to run Return anymore.
 
Not sure how relevant Flash Fire is going to be for Typh (An extra immunity I guess?) because one of the things that Typh does is Erupt until he can't Erupt no more... and then Blaze Fire Blast. That's kinda his thing. Typh really cannot switch into common fire-tyypes either, as Moltres beats it with Hurricane, Delphox beats it with Psyshock and Houndoom idk dark pulses/crunch or something I guess Houndoom kinda loses a bit to him.

But Gatr is now a huger threat. And stall will be even less viable now so fuck.
 

Don Honchkrorleone

Happy Qwilfish the nightmare
is a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnus
Amazing art by myself


Jeff Dahmer (Feraligatr) @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 64 HP / 252 Atk / 192 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Waterfall
- Crunch
- Ice Punch

And all you thought Panda was broken. 192 outspeeds Timid Jolteon while the HP investment lets Gatr set up in an unboosted Leaf Blade from Virizion, and the rest is history. Hazard support provided easily by Qwilfish/Crustle/etc can fuck with those Quags trying to stop the rage of the best starter of all time. You better have Ferroseed and Poliwrath or else it'll be Gatr time.
 

ScraftyIsTheBest

On to new Horizons!
is a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
Hi guys I know Molk said this a while ago, but honestly I think Flash Fire Typhlosion really won't make much of an impact at all. It's not that much better than Blaze Typhlosion and only allows Typhlosion to have a stronger Eruption if you are lucky enough to get it to activate. The fact of the matter is that Typhlosion is a really shaky switch-in to all of RU's relevant Fire-types. The soon-to-be-banned Moltres can just use Hurricane on it to heavily dent it and call it a day, Emboar has Superpower, Delphox has Psyshock, and Houndoom has Dark Pulse, Sucker Punch, and Pursuit as well as Flash Fire itself. The point I'm making here is that even with Flash Fire, Typhlosion will have a hard time actually getting it to activate because everything has some way to get around it. Because of this, I feel Flash Fire simply isn't good enough to save Typhlosion from its greatest problem, which is that it's strictly outclassed by every single Fire-type in the tier like Delphox and Houndoom, the latter even having Flash Fire itself!!! Basically, Typhlosion still has the same problems as before and Flash Fire isn't doing much to help it in any way as it already does a shaky job making use of the ability. Maybe it could be a mini Scarf Heatran in NU but I don't see why I'd use this over any Fire-type available. It's not really much better than Blaze Typhlosion anyways.

Also Sheer Force Feraligatr is gonna be dope. Gatr for S Rank, y/n?
 
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