Resource LC Viability Rankings

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Shrug

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Multiple niches is in no way a prerequisite for B rank; there's only one use I know for both Doduo and Elekid. So it centers on doing one well. You claim it had 4MSS, but that doesn't fit in my opinion. 4mss centers around a Pokemon needing 5 moves for a single set to be effective. Bunny is perfectly fine with attack/ h wish / twave/ encore; it's also fine with attack / h wish / cosmic power / bp. Those are two entirely different sets, with different purposes. You don't punish Foo for being unable to SD pass and u-turn on the same set. Honestly i think bunny's main niche is worthy of b-; it's worse than surskit and snivy but I'd rather have it than trubbish. I'm sure other users will disagree with that but b- is fine imo
 

Punchshroom

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Also you don't actually need an attacking move on Buneary as it does learn Magic Coat to ward off Taunt, and also has the dual purposes of deterring status and hazards and the like. Between Magic Coat, Switcheroo, and Encore (especially the latter, combined with its high speed), it's actually pretty difficult to turn Bunny into setup fodder despite how passive it is.
 
Also you don't actually need an attacking move on Buneary as it does learn Magic Coat to ward off Taunt, and also has the dual purposes of deterring status and hazards and the like. Between Magic Coat, Switcheroo, and Encore (especially the latter, combined with its high speed), it's actually pretty difficult to turn Bunny into setup fodder despite how passive it is.
Magic Coat is easy to play around tbh, and if it has no attacking moves it's a passive fuck and you can get something to set up around it, and even if it does have CP to counter set up, the fact stands that it only can pass and nothing else, also has no access to reliable recovery ((iirc, don't quote me on that one)) It deserves C-, but tbh this argument is getting completely out of hand. Let the council decide on the ranking, I'm done posting my point.
(Side note: I don't handle arguments or even heated debates like this pretty well, which is why I want it to stop.)
 
Magic Coat is easy to play around tbh, and if it has no attacking moves it's a passive fuck and you can get something to set up around it, and even if it does have CP to counter set up, the fact stands that it only can pass and nothing else, also has no access to reliable recovery ((iirc, don't quote me on that one)) It deserves C-, but tbh this argument is getting completely out of hand. Let the council decide on the ranking, I'm done posting my point.
(Side note: I don't handle arguments or even heated debates like this pretty well, which is why I want it to stop.)
While I agree with the part of it still being set up bait because it is p fast. Idk why refuse to acknowledge any of its good points, the discussion is not out of hand. You are just wrong, we are discussing c+ or b-
 
While I agree with the part of it still being set up bait because it is p fast. Idk why refuse to acknowledge any of its good points, the discussion is not out of hand. You are just wrong, we are discussing c+ or b-
The point of persuading someone is to bring them mostly the point of your argument, and I did state a few good points.
I stated my opinion, if people don't like that then you know, it's just how it is, although I may be wrong partly. (I'm new to this if you haven't noticed, analyzing stuff.) But my point is, C+ is an excellent place for this underused Mon. B- is a little too high imo, and C+ is giving it a fair place.
 

Camden

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Magic Coat is easy to play around tbh, and if it has no attacking moves it's a passive fuck and you can get something to set up around it, and even if it does have CP to counter set up, the fact stands that it only can pass and nothing else, also has no access to reliable recovery ((iirc, don't quote me on that one)) It deserves C-, but tbh this argument is getting completely out of hand. Let the council decide on the ranking, I'm done posting my point.
(Side note: I don't handle arguments or even heated debates like this pretty well, which is why I want it to stop.)
It's not even a heated argument. It's a normal discussion and you're not handling it well.

Buneary doesn't need access to reliable recovery because its intention is to come in once, maybe twice, offer strong immediate support, and then continue with one of your other pokes. For that reason is why it should be C+. Its lack of longevity prevents it from being that great, but the support it does offer is invaluable.
 
It's not even a heated argument. It's a normal discussion and you're not handling it well.

Buneary doesn't need access to reliable recovery because its intention is to come in once, maybe twice, offer strong immediate support, and then continue with one of your other pokes. For that reason is why it should be C+. Its lack of longevity prevents it from being that great, but the support it does offer is invaluable.
I don't handle jack well. That aside, I just felt it was heated and I have had some bad experience with arguments starting over petty stuff like this. That aside again, I just stated my reasoning in my last post, and I'm done posting about Buneary, it's good with Healing Wish, but not B-, C+ is giving it good reign.Might test something, idfk.
 

Punchshroom

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Magic Coat is easy to play around tbh, and if it has no attacking moves it's a passive fuck and you can get something to set up around it, and even if it does have CP to counter set up, the fact stands that it only can pass and nothing else, also has no access to reliable recovery ((iirc, don't quote me on that one)) It deserves C-, but tbh this argument is getting completely out of hand. Let the council decide on the ranking, I'm done posting my point.
(Side note: I don't handle arguments or even heated debates like this pretty well, which is why I want it to stop.)
Also you don't actually need an attacking move on Buneary as it does learn Magic Coat to ward off Taunt, and also has the dual purposes of deterring status and hazards and the like. Between Magic Coat, Switcheroo, and Encore (especially the latter, combined with its high speed), it's actually pretty difficult to turn Bunny into setup fodder despite how passive it is.
I know you don't want to talk about Buneary anymore (even though other users would probably like to continue sharing their input on Buneary, but just saying.
 
I don't handle jack well. That aside, I just felt it was heated and I have had some bad experience with arguments starting over petty stuff like this. That aside again, I just stated my reasoning in my ittY last post, and I'm done posting about Buneary, it's good with Healing Wish, but not B-, C+ is giving it good reign.Might test something, idfk.
Theres nothing petty about this, you didn't even post when infamy made that little comment. Do not victimize yourself because it just will make this useless convo continue, do not post if you can not handle replying. Honestly we are not at the end to leave it to levi just yet and I will respond when I get on a comp
 
Theres nothing petty about this, you didn't even post when infamy made that little comment. Do not victimize yourself because it just will make this useless convo continue, do not post if you can not handle replying. Honestly we are not at the end to leave it to levi just yet and I will respond when I get on a comp
I already did want to leave it to Levi js.
And this has gotten petty imo since it's just two normal types battling over a niche.
I know you don't want to talk about Buneary anymore (even though other users would probably like to continue sharing their input on Buneary, but just saying.
I totally forgot about Encore, I am so sorry. I make mistakes, I'm only a human.
 
Ok since this thread is degenerating I am making one last post not mon related. Encore is the second best part about buneary gallade, not to mention only one user kept trying to compare them idk why but that does not make the whole thing petty. Infamy, calm your tits, I alluded to your post big whoop do not cry about it
 

Holiday

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I'd like to nominate Magnemite to A.

Idk why it's even A+ Lmao. You can't compare Mag to the likes of Chinchou, Pony, Fletch, Timburr etc. It hits hard and is okayish speed. The scarf set just spams a fast volt switch, and the sturdy endure BJ set is getting less hard to play around between knock off and breaking sturdy. It should be A. Taking its place should be Porygon. It's very bulky, and trace gives it an awesome niche in switching in on Chou, it hits hard as fuck with Tri attack and has Recover. The agility sweeper set hits stupidly hard with a Download and LO boost and is bulky enough to set up on most things not fighting type.

Edit: Levi wants me to talk about its tank set and defensive set for Pory so yeah. It can tank a hit, status you, and either recover or blast you with the appropriate move.

TL; DR Magnemite drop to A Porygon up to A+
 
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Nomming Ponyta for A.

It's not so crazy when you consider that it struggles to reliably check Fletch. With rocks up, it's going to almost always be ko'd by +2 Fletch. (assuming max/max) With Pawn, the regular Ponyta set takes about 50% from Evio Pawn. I can only imagine that the increasingly relevant LO set is going to peg it down to 3hp with rocks up. While perhaps we ought to have some discussion on better Pony spreads before making a decision, it's quite clear that Ponyta cannot use the common spread effectively.

Indeed, shifting to an Impish nature with attack evs reallocated to HP makes it a far better check to Pawn. That said, such a spread only hits 18 speed, leaving Pony far more open to Abra and Gastly, among others.

That's only on Pawn too. We need to bear in mind that Ponyta fails to stop Timburr, one of the most dangerous physical win conditions. It can't hope to beat mixed Croagunk one on one, especially with SR, and it's really easy to revenge with Diglett.

Sunnybeam Pony's a beast, but imo it's not enough to be considered a reliable A+ mon.
 
Nomming Ponyta for A.

It's not so crazy when you consider that it struggles to reliably check Fletch. With rocks up, it's going to almost always be ko'd by +2 Fletch. (assuming max/max) With Pawn, the regular Ponyta set takes about 50% from Evio Pawn. I can only imagine that the increasingly relevant LO set is going to peg it down to 3hp with rocks up. While perhaps we ought to have some discussion on better Pony spreads before making a decision, it's quite clear that Ponyta cannot use the common spread effectively.

Indeed, shifting to an Impish nature with attack evs reallocated to HP makes it a far better check to Pawn. That said, such a spread only hits 18 speed, leaving Pony far more open to Abra and Gastly, among others.

That's only on Pawn too. We need to bear in mind that Ponyta fails to stop Timburr, one of the most dangerous physical win conditions. It can't hope to beat mixed Croagunk one on one, especially with SR, and it's really easy to revenge with Diglett.

Sunnybeam Pony's a beast, but imo it's not enough to be considered a reliable A+ mon.
You're restricting Ponyta to only its defensive abilities and even then you're making it seem as a lowly defensive Pokémon. I gotta say that you're playing wrongly if you're using Ponyta as your main Fletchling and Pawniard check, I don't understand how people find it a great check for those but I'd never switch in Ponyta into Fletchling witch rocks being up or Pawniard when I predict an obvious Knock Off. And about the Impish set it's to be honest the best defensive set as Ponyta doesn't need the 19 speed to preform its role as most physical mons it checks doesn't hit that tier (Pawniard, Mienfoo, and more..), but yea you'll be losing to stuff like Abra but its advantages are more than its disadvantages. Also, the fact that Diglett can easily revenge kill it doesn't make any sense as you can say that for any top tier Pokémon such as Chinchou and more, also keep in mind that Non LO variants fail to OHKO the defensive Ponyta set. And these defensive capabilities aren't the only ones that make Ponyta worthy of a A+, like you said the Sunnybeam set is a total nuke but there is also the Life Orb set that is too damn good and that can easily 2HKO most of the meta.
 
imo I think you're missing the point. Ponyta isn't a good check for these mons. It might stop a couple of things like Foo, but you are still gonna find yourself fucked over by quite a lot of important physical sweepers. Pony's offensive capabilities are strong, but it's not a mon with a whole lot of staying power, and it lacks defensive aspects that make it a threatening presence on the bench.
 
Tirtouga ---> A-

It's defense is insane and is a really good fletch counter but it has many drawbacks that make it unworthy of A.

The defensive set can take hits from most any physical attacker, but ends up being trapped by goth and fails to stop many setup sweepers, including zigzagoon, timburr, and after being slightly weakened, omanyte. It also doesn't have recovery, which really hurts it making it easy to wear down

The offensive SS set is not only no better than shellder, but also has a hard time breaking fighting types. It also is hindered by scarfers, as 16 speed scarfers outspeed it. If it chooses to run jolly, it is then unable to break even more things
 
I can easily support a drop for Tirtouga, the meta feels really hostile towards it, as it can't set up on a lot of stuff, and its checks/counters can be very difficult to weaken given how a quite a few of them have recovery. Mienfoo, Foongus, and Slowpoke beat it easily and all three have Regenerator, Porygon carries Recover and is bulky af, fighting-types have Drain Punch, Pumpkaboo carries Synthesis and can burn it. I think it was mentioned before at some point, but out of the A-rank mons, Tirtouga can literally set up on Spritzee and Fletchling without HP Grass. Everything else either checks it, deals a lot of damage to it, or hits it with status. I know it has sturdy, but barely hitting it at all can be enough to get around it, and it doesnt exactly want to lose Berry Juice the turn it sets up, as that makes it really easy to beat. Not to mention, it has 4MSS, as it wants to run Stone Edge, Waterfall, Aqua Jet, Earthquake, and Zen Headbutt all on the same set. Solid Smash sets, even though they are easier to set up with, are held back by the fact that they don't have Sturdy, have to drop either some strength or speed, still require quite a bit of team support, and have 4MSS. Generally, I would rather run Shellder or Omanyte if I were to use a Shell Smash sweeper, as Shellder breaks Sturdy/Sash and generally hits hard because of LC rolls, and Omanyte is generally underprepared for and is pretty strong even without setup.

The defensive set, as bulky as it is, is held back by Tirtouga's low HP stat and lack of recovery, as well as a general lack of offensive presence, even with Scald/Knock Off/w/e. I haven't used/seen this as much as the other sets, so I don't have a lot to say about it.
 
Yeah, I'm going with the above. Drop it.)
I've used Tirtouga on my main LC team for awhile and it's been having trouble adapting to all the new stuff, and even if it has sky high defense even somewhat after a boost, SturdJuice can get destroyed by a move that hits multiple times, which yeah it's specific, but it's still out there.
I've had trouble using it lately, and I was thinking of switching to like Shellder or Dwebble, and yeah, it could help since Touga is still much viable, but it isn't in the same ranking as ones in the same ranking as it not.
And same as above, defensive set I haven't used much or seen much, so I wouldn't know besides lack of recovery besides the bad rest/talk that could be pulled off by something better.
So back to the offensive variant, yeah it's good and can be a late game sweeper really easily, but this new meta introducing all the new moves from OR/AS and new breeding combinations make it have trouble, and new fads take over and Touga suffers. Not to mention Contrary Snivy is out (which is meh imo, since it only gets Twister and not Dragon Pulse and hits weak before a boost) it suffers. It's a good mid to late game sweeper, but the amount of things ran these days just destroy it, and it has 4MSS as stated in the above posting.
Shellder is great, and breaks through common SturdJuicers and stuff, Omanyte I've never bothered with, so I wouldn't know.
Dwebble also can be used, as it 1: is neutral to fighting, 2: bug/rock is a nice typing imo, but weak to rocks. And it gets a good movepool (iirc, do NOT quote me on it) and hits really hard before a boost (again, do not quote me on that, I've only used it once or twice on a joke team).

Tirtouga from A --> A-/B+
 
Yeah Tirtouga warrants a drop due to the fact that it's lost a lot of offensive prowess in the current metagame.

On another note can we raise Totodile to D rank because it's ddance set with sheer force hits somewhat hard, and has nice priority in Aqua jet
 

Holiday

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As far as Smashers go there's not really a reason I'd use Tirt over Shellder or Omanyte, except maybe priority over the latter. I never really liked the defensive set but even so there's so much stuff that can just hit TF OUTTA it like Pump, Reckless Mienfoo, Chinchou etc. Tirt deserves a drop.
 

Merritt

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On another note can we raise Totodile to D rank because it's ddance set with sheer force hits somewhat hard, and has nice priority in Aqua jet
I would support a rise to D rank simply because it has a single niche over Corphish in the form of Ice Punch. This allows it to beat grass types like Foongus without being forced out, bar ferroseed, and its other moves still hit hard.

On the other hand, it probably shouldn't go much, if any, higher since Corphish severely outclasses it.
 

Holiday

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I would support a rise to D rank simply because it has a single niche over Corphish in the form of Ice Punch. This allows it to beat grass types like Foongus without being forced out, bar ferroseed, and its other moves still hit hard.

On the other hand, it probably shouldn't go much, if any, higher since Corphish severely outclasses it.
+1 156+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Totodile Ice Punch vs. 124 HP / 160+ Def Eviolite Foongus: 21-26 (84 - 104%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
(21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 26)

There's literally no reason to use Totodile in LC OU.
 

Camden

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+1 156+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Totodile Ice Punch vs. 124 HP / 160+ Def Eviolite Foongus: 21-26 (84 - 104%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
(21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 26)

There's literally no reason to use Totodile in LC OU.
Totodile runs 236 Attack, not 156. Also, you're assuming Foongus hasn't switched in on hazards or whatnot.

+1 236+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Totodile Ice Punch vs. 124 HP / 160+ Def Eviolite Foongus: 23-29 (92 - 116%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
(23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 29)
 

Holiday

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Totodile runs 236 Attack, not 156. Also, you're assuming Foongus hasn't switched in on hazards or whatnot.

+1 236+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Totodile Ice Punch vs. 124 HP / 160+ Def Eviolite Foongus: 23-29 (92 - 116%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
(23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 29)
Oh I just used the calc set lmao my bad but hazards aren't always up and if it doesn't get the kill it's gone AF. Sure I guess move it to D but its realllllly bad lmao.
 
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