I've literally seen one Levitate Heatran every tbh, most people are running Desolate Land or something else that I usually don't have time to determine. And I suppose I could tweak the EVs some still, all my sets are pretty WIP at the moment lmao.
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Inheritance [Prime Council Elected]
- Thread starter Snaquaza
- Start date
My turn:
One thing to keep in mind when viewing these suspects is how each affects different playstyles. Most balance/stall teams couldn't care less about prankster chansey, but a lot of offensive teams are forced to run a fire type or a guts user JUST to beat it (and make sure the guts user doesn't get destroyed by metal burst). Even voltturn teams have an issue with chansey, as chansey cana often get off chip damage via metal burst in addition to whatever hazards do. On the flipside, a lot of dedicated stall can handle lando with ease, and most offensive teams don't care about a switchin to lando- they don't have a switchin to much of anything, and they most certainly have something to revenge it, while lando t, especially swords dance (or banded), can tear apart balance cores with powered up brave birds or well placed u-turns. Remember to think not just "can this be handled easily" but also "how feasible is it to handle it in different styles/how much does it actually affect different styles." The goal is to make the meta healthy, not just ban things that are strong.
Landorus-Therian
I think the biggest problem with this is that too many people are focusing on countering only lando T. There are several mons that have the ability to handle most if not all of the sets it runs. Regirock, intimidate manaphy/suicune, rhydon, rhyperior, zapdos (if rocks are up and zapdos isn't poison heal/intimdate then it has a 25% chance to 2hko after lefties), flash fire skarmory, etc. As for protean lure sets: lure sets are and always will be a thing in pokemon. Having lure sets does not push it into overpoweredness, even OU scarf lando has HP ice sets to hit gliscor/other landos. Having a lure set just means it's a standard threat. Anything that is common and prepared for can run a lure set to beat common switchins, that's just good pokemon. I think lando is a metagame defining threat, but I do not believe it to be broken. Yes it does warp the metagame to an extent, but even talonflame does that in OU and it's not remotely up for a ban. Similarly having U-Turn to go into trappers is not unique to landorus, and does not contribute to banworthiness, especially in a tier where literally everything has access to u-turn/volt switch.
Archeops
This one I'm more on the fence about, but it's general frailness is its biggest weak point, but having 5 less attack than landoge and therefore being the secondary burdspam mascot if landoge is banned I think it's actually more suspect. Having A much better speed tier than lando, and much, much better secondary sets (tyrantrum, megamence, protean, etc) makes this one a lot sketchier, even if it is unable to switch in on much at all. What it lacks in bulk it makes up for in speed and unpredictability. The most underrated and dangerous of the current list of "suspects."
Chansey
I shared my thoughts on this one earlier, but basically forcing other mons to switch into status and a monstrous hp stat paired with metal burst (which requires far less prediction than the countercoat pair) and incredibly reliable recovery that even circumvents stealth rock 2hko calcs via prankster makes this one the most suspect in my honest opinion. Having prankster iron defense that also permanently cripples opposing mons (bar fire types that will be weak to stealth rocks and limited on switchins) puts far too much pressure on more offensive teams to have a chansey answer or basically pp stall chansey, which becomes far less feasible if hazards ever happen. The other sets it has are just gravy, and I'm not a fan of a complex "sableye chansey" ban. It has too much bulk (especially hp) to be allowed to run the sets it does. If this were an ubers base metagame the pokemon available would better be able to handle chansey and the mentality would be deal with it, but as is I think it needs to go.
Inheriting from Sableye
Honestly while annoying, on any other mon (bar possibly wobbuffet/wailord/blissey who are the only mons with remotely comparable hp pools) metal burst becomes far less oppressive, and other than blissey most don't have the special bulk to be a 2 sided wall the way chansey is. Even blissey lacks eviolite making it much easier to deal with physically (though a ban here *may* be necessary if chansey is banned). Leave sableye as a donor alone for now.
Blaziken-Mega
I think this mon is far too centralizing. 180 bp close combat with the ability to keep ticking up on speed and access to espeed while keeping v-create to beat espeeders/gale wings users is a bit unfair. Having access to bolt strike to beat bulky waters and flash fire users and surf to beat rhyhorn/rhydon along with nasty extra bonuses like running strong winds to eliminate a weather on switchin, using air lock and staying unmega'd to beat primesea users, u-turn to pivot out, and swords dance while keeping v-create make it too flexible on its options while never dropping this ungodly stab. The base form is fine, as anything can inherit it and it can inherit itself, but allowing blaziken to take movesets from victini/rayquaza and then mega evolve to have speed boost on top of this incredibly potent moveset is detrimental to the health of the metagame. Ironically this is one of the mons that really doesn't care about chansey that still fits a more offensive playstyle.
Archeops
This one I'm more on the fence about, but it's general frailness is its biggest weak point, but having 5 less attack than landoge and therefore being the secondary burdspam mascot if landoge is banned I think it's actually more suspect. Having A much better speed tier than lando, and much, much better secondary sets (tyrantrum, megamence, protean, etc) makes this one a lot sketchier, even if it is unable to switch in on much at all. What it lacks in bulk it makes up for in speed and unpredictability. The most underrated and dangerous of the current list of "suspects."
Chansey
I shared my thoughts on this one earlier, but basically forcing other mons to switch into status and a monstrous hp stat paired with metal burst (which requires far less prediction than the countercoat pair) and incredibly reliable recovery that even circumvents stealth rock 2hko calcs via prankster makes this one the most suspect in my honest opinion. Having prankster iron defense that also permanently cripples opposing mons (bar fire types that will be weak to stealth rocks and limited on switchins) puts far too much pressure on more offensive teams to have a chansey answer or basically pp stall chansey, which becomes far less feasible if hazards ever happen. The other sets it has are just gravy, and I'm not a fan of a complex "sableye chansey" ban. It has too much bulk (especially hp) to be allowed to run the sets it does. If this were an ubers base metagame the pokemon available would better be able to handle chansey and the mentality would be deal with it, but as is I think it needs to go.
Inheriting from Sableye
Honestly while annoying, on any other mon (bar possibly wobbuffet/wailord/blissey who are the only mons with remotely comparable hp pools) metal burst becomes far less oppressive, and other than blissey most don't have the special bulk to be a 2 sided wall the way chansey is. Even blissey lacks eviolite making it much easier to deal with physically (though a ban here *may* be necessary if chansey is banned). Leave sableye as a donor alone for now.
Blaziken-Mega
I think this mon is far too centralizing. 180 bp close combat with the ability to keep ticking up on speed and access to espeed while keeping v-create to beat espeeders/gale wings users is a bit unfair. Having access to bolt strike to beat bulky waters and flash fire users and surf to beat rhyhorn/rhydon along with nasty extra bonuses like running strong winds to eliminate a weather on switchin, using air lock and staying unmega'd to beat primesea users, u-turn to pivot out, and swords dance while keeping v-create make it too flexible on its options while never dropping this ungodly stab. The base form is fine, as anything can inherit it and it can inherit itself, but allowing blaziken to take movesets from victini/rayquaza and then mega evolve to have speed boost on top of this incredibly potent moveset is detrimental to the health of the metagame. Ironically this is one of the mons that really doesn't care about chansey that still fits a more offensive playstyle.
One thing to keep in mind when viewing these suspects is how each affects different playstyles. Most balance/stall teams couldn't care less about prankster chansey, but a lot of offensive teams are forced to run a fire type or a guts user JUST to beat it (and make sure the guts user doesn't get destroyed by metal burst). Even voltturn teams have an issue with chansey, as chansey cana often get off chip damage via metal burst in addition to whatever hazards do. On the flipside, a lot of dedicated stall can handle lando with ease, and most offensive teams don't care about a switchin to lando- they don't have a switchin to much of anything, and they most certainly have something to revenge it, while lando t, especially swords dance (or banded), can tear apart balance cores with powered up brave birds or well placed u-turns. Remember to think not just "can this be handled easily" but also "how feasible is it to handle it in different styles/how much does it actually affect different styles." The goal is to make the meta healthy, not just ban things that are strong.
The thing about lure sets, though, is that there is an opportunity cost to using them -- you can't use that Pokemon's standard set. In Inheritance, though, it's trivial to run, say, Archeops as your actual Gale Winger / Aerilator and leave Lando to punch through Archeops's counters. Or you could do the reverse. Or you could use Salamence, Dragonite, another genie... you get the idea, though? Lando's lure set has little opportunity cost because you can just run Lando 2.0 alongside it, and any Protean user with solid offensive stats is not going to have trouble pulling its weight.
Of course, if we ban the Lando-T and Archeops, then all we've really done is given their sets a Stealth Rock weakness and cut down on its Attack and Speed stats by a bit -- hardly insurmountable, really, unless the drop from Lando-T to Salamence introduces some new switch-ins that I'm not aware of. Truth be told, I would almost be willing to suspect Talonflame as a donor. Almost. I think for the time being, we should check to see if removing these two makes it safe to go without ridiculous birdspam checks; if so, I would support a ban, and if not, then clearly the problem lies elsewhere.
As for Chansey, yeah, it's disgusting, get rid of it. That is partially my frustration as an offense player speaking, but all of the worthwhile points have been made better than I could have made them, and I think they stand -- with the exception that I still don't know of any overlap between what handles Sableye-Chansey and what handles Mew-Chansey. I'm unsure about inheriting from Sableye; once we ban Chansey, we'll be able to tell whether it's broken. I have no experience with Big Bird, so I'll leave it alone.
The difference is that when you run both it's far more obvious, and you give up actual gale wings lando. Since this is inheritance, you can always bop things with a lure set, but overloading the opposing walls has been a teambuilding strategy as long as there's been synergistic threats. Mblaze is a good example of a far more dangerous mon, as it can run the coverage like surf without giving up its main movepool. By running protean instead of gale wings on your lando/archeops you open them up to bring rk'd or checked just by something faster than it/with priority. Having lure sets is something you can't get rid of in a metagame like this, and I'd really like to avoid arguments like that that can lead to banning basically anything just because it has a set and a set that beats that set's checks. Ban targets should be things like keldeo that were hard to wall regardless of set.
My personal opinion is to ban inheriting from Sableye. What sets do you see Chansey running? The only ones I've seen are Sableye, Mew and Mega Sableye. The Mew set is a good set but is nowhere near being broken. Just look at STABMons, Transform Chansey is everywhere and it can be handled rather well. The Mega Sableye set is also a good set, but not as great as Sableye. Magic Bounce is fun. Sure, you get Metal Burst and Will-o-Wisp, but as a lot of people said, their problem was PRANKSTER Will-o-Wisp and Metal Burst. Get rid of Prankster and you can run a variety of sets that can beat Chansey. Or if you feel it's Sableye's movepool that's the problem, get rid of it altogether.
Even if you ban Chansey, you're going to get Blissey, Wobbuffet, Snorlax, Deoxys-D, Registeel, Florges and Regice running the exact same thing.
Even if you ban Chansey, you're going to get Blissey, Wobbuffet, Snorlax, Deoxys-D, Registeel, Florges and Regice running the exact same thing.
DeoD, snorlax, regis, and florges all have FAR less hp, no eviolite. Wobbuffet has far less defenses and a much worse typing. Blissey is the only remotely comparable one here and again lacks eviolite. Small nitpick: prankster doesn't affect metal burst.
On another note: an untested set I think holds promise is tinted lens thundurus (one of the better perks to running thundy as the abuser is the burd resistance)
Thundurus (M) @Leftovers/Life Orb
Ability: Tinted Lens
EVs: 252 HP(SpA)/4 Def/ 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Quiver Dance
- Air Slash
- Substitute/Toxic
- Roost/U-Turn
MAMP
MAMP!
I've only recently gotten into this meta, so I haven't really played enough of this meta to comment on the suspects, but I think Sableye!Chansey is dumb af, and Archeops is p stupid as well.
I wanted to share a couple of sets I've used to some success:
Zygarde @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Roost
- Swords Dance
- Knock Off
- Earthquake
This Zygarde set inherits from Gliscor. PH + Roost + Good typing and bulk mean it has an easy time setting up on a lot of things, and Knock Off and Earthquake are great coverage. This set can really cause a lot of trouble for stall teams, and is a really nice late game cleaner.
Charizard @ Charizardite X
Ability: Delta Stream
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- V-create
- Dragon Claw
- Earthquake
- Extreme Speed
I'm sure someone else came up with this, but I didn't see a post about it so w/e. Charizard inheriting from Rayquaza gets a very powerful Tough Claws boosted V-Create, which very little can take a hit from. It also gets Extreme Speed which is really strong with the Tough Claws boost as well. Dragon Claw and EQ are just for coverage, but I haven't ever really found a use for EQ, so I guess you could run DD or SD or something. If you inherit from Victini instead you get to use Bolt Strike to hit waters and U-turn, but it comes at the cost of Dragon Claw and Espeed which isn't really worth it imo.
I wanted to share a couple of sets I've used to some success:
Zygarde @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Roost
- Swords Dance
- Knock Off
- Earthquake
This Zygarde set inherits from Gliscor. PH + Roost + Good typing and bulk mean it has an easy time setting up on a lot of things, and Knock Off and Earthquake are great coverage. This set can really cause a lot of trouble for stall teams, and is a really nice late game cleaner.
Charizard @ Charizardite X
Ability: Delta Stream
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- V-create
- Dragon Claw
- Earthquake
- Extreme Speed
I'm sure someone else came up with this, but I didn't see a post about it so w/e. Charizard inheriting from Rayquaza gets a very powerful Tough Claws boosted V-Create, which very little can take a hit from. It also gets Extreme Speed which is really strong with the Tough Claws boost as well. Dragon Claw and EQ are just for coverage, but I haven't ever really found a use for EQ, so I guess you could run DD or SD or something. If you inherit from Victini instead you get to use Bolt Strike to hit waters and U-turn, but it comes at the cost of Dragon Claw and Espeed which isn't really worth it imo.
Ignoring Wobbuffet, they kinda make up for it with a better defence stat, no? Once a physical attacker you send out gets burned, it can't really do much. And they can most certainly tank a lot of special attacks, and KO again with Metal Burst.
Yeah, I know. I was referring to the combination of Metal Burst + Prankster WoW. Only Sableye gets both moves.
Landorus-Therian
Frankly, I can see Lando-T being more destructive in the future. Sure, it has counters in Regirock, Zapdos, FF Skarmory, and so forth; that being said, I believe it's a lot more versatile than many realise. For instance, its GaleWings set can feasibly be equipped with Will-o-Wisp to cripple common switch-ins such as Regirock and Zapdos, effectively paving way for his team. Lando-T truly has a lot of versatility that has not been explored yet, so that kind of worries me. His Protean lure sets are frightening, and I believe they should be addressed as a problem. You see, they're not exactly lure sets, because they don't really take anything away from Lando-T's overall viability. Those Protean sets are very powerful in their own right. Lando-T is one of the most defining threats in the current metagame, and I believe its centralisation and versatility may warrant a ban in the future; nevertheless, as of now, I don't see how Lando-T is that unhealthy of a threat in the current metagame.
Archeops
Archeops is very similar to Lando-T. Most of what I said about Lando-T is true for Archeops. Archeops' much higher Speed stat allows it to be more effective than Landorus-T with non-GaleWings sets in my opinion. Archeops' durability is abysmal, which is essentially the only aspect that is keeping it from being outright overpowered. Despite what I just said, I believe Archeops is more or less as centralising as Landorus-T.
Chansey
Just recently, I made a post about how there are many non-passive tools available that counter Chansey. Truth be told, I already made the observation that Chansey resultantly limits the offensive playstyle to such a degree that it almost became impossible for the more offensive playstyles to be used feasibly. I did not actually see it as a problem, and since then, I have changed my mind. Chansey isn't the only Pokemon plaguing Offense at the moment. I'm a firm believer that excessive priority in the OM's gives Offense centralisation issues. In Inheritance, the centralisation of priority attacks limits Offense into something I believe to be stale and predictable. Thus, I suppose we should take a closer look at Mega Glalie and Mega Pinsir.
Inheriting from Sableye
My thoughts mirror Yoman's thoughts earlier. There isn't a single Pokemon that can use Chansey's most dangerous move, Metal Burst, as well as Chansey herself. Let's give Sableye some time.
Blaziken-Mega
Mega Blaziken is absolutely ridiculous! After a Swords Dance, offensive teams cannot handle this dumb chicken at all! Even stall teams have difficulty in walling this threat! With a retarded Attack stat, Extreme Speed, V-create, and Swords Dance, I think banning Mega Blaziken would be no-brainer. There are so many ways to play this guy. Attack outright with a 180 BP STAB move as you subsequently kill apparent checks with Extreme Speed? Done! Boost up after your team has slightly damaged apparent checks to dismantle opposers with stupidly powerful attacks? Done! The list goes on and on and on and on!
Most offensive playstyles are fortunately (sadly???) not that viable, so I legitimately hope that after decisions have been made, Offense would be more usable.
Frankly, I can see Lando-T being more destructive in the future. Sure, it has counters in Regirock, Zapdos, FF Skarmory, and so forth; that being said, I believe it's a lot more versatile than many realise. For instance, its GaleWings set can feasibly be equipped with Will-o-Wisp to cripple common switch-ins such as Regirock and Zapdos, effectively paving way for his team. Lando-T truly has a lot of versatility that has not been explored yet, so that kind of worries me. His Protean lure sets are frightening, and I believe they should be addressed as a problem. You see, they're not exactly lure sets, because they don't really take anything away from Lando-T's overall viability. Those Protean sets are very powerful in their own right. Lando-T is one of the most defining threats in the current metagame, and I believe its centralisation and versatility may warrant a ban in the future; nevertheless, as of now, I don't see how Lando-T is that unhealthy of a threat in the current metagame.
Archeops
Archeops is very similar to Lando-T. Most of what I said about Lando-T is true for Archeops. Archeops' much higher Speed stat allows it to be more effective than Landorus-T with non-GaleWings sets in my opinion. Archeops' durability is abysmal, which is essentially the only aspect that is keeping it from being outright overpowered. Despite what I just said, I believe Archeops is more or less as centralising as Landorus-T.
Chansey
Just recently, I made a post about how there are many non-passive tools available that counter Chansey. Truth be told, I already made the observation that Chansey resultantly limits the offensive playstyle to such a degree that it almost became impossible for the more offensive playstyles to be used feasibly. I did not actually see it as a problem, and since then, I have changed my mind. Chansey isn't the only Pokemon plaguing Offense at the moment. I'm a firm believer that excessive priority in the OM's gives Offense centralisation issues. In Inheritance, the centralisation of priority attacks limits Offense into something I believe to be stale and predictable. Thus, I suppose we should take a closer look at Mega Glalie and Mega Pinsir.
Inheriting from Sableye
My thoughts mirror Yoman's thoughts earlier. There isn't a single Pokemon that can use Chansey's most dangerous move, Metal Burst, as well as Chansey herself. Let's give Sableye some time.
Blaziken-Mega
Mega Blaziken is absolutely ridiculous! After a Swords Dance, offensive teams cannot handle this dumb chicken at all! Even stall teams have difficulty in walling this threat! With a retarded Attack stat, Extreme Speed, V-create, and Swords Dance, I think banning Mega Blaziken would be no-brainer. There are so many ways to play this guy. Attack outright with a 180 BP STAB move as you subsequently kill apparent checks with Extreme Speed? Done! Boost up after your team has slightly damaged apparent checks to dismantle opposers with stupidly powerful attacks? Done! The list goes on and on and on and on!
Most offensive playstyles are fortunately (sadly???) not that viable, so I legitimately hope that after decisions have been made, Offense would be more usable.
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Imo the problem with inheriting from rayquaza stems mainly from its access to extremespeed and vcreate as those two moves alone have been proven to be too much with good abusers for any meta that's not basically ubers(like stabmons or MnM). Even then stabmons would have to ban quite a few mons if they got espeed.
I believe it would be prudent to ban these moves(and boomburst)/from inheriting them due to overcentralizing a playstyle by letting it destroy every other playstyle by huge damage/instakilling glass cannons(it should be noted that I don't think stall and balance are unviable but that they are severely limited due to the infinite distribution of these moves.
I disagree, I think high base power moves are a part of the draw and building of this metagame, and should only be curbed where broken, see boomburst and vcreate in stabmons.
I personally have not had any trouble with Landorus-Therian, and I attribute that to this one set. Keep in mind that I am in no way discrediting anyone's opinions and this is absolutely not a statement about Landorus being banworthy. This is simply a check to Landorus that has a lot of other utility.
Empoleon @ Leftovers
Ability: Primordial Sea
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: null Atk
- Scald
- Calm Mind
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
The pressure that Empoleon puts on teams is incredible. I often don't find myself even using Calm Mind and still breaking down teams. It also checks Glalie-Mega, other Gale Wings, Aerilate, and the abundant Rock Types that are a direct result of Landorus-T.
Empoleon @ Leftovers
Ability: Primordial Sea
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: null Atk
- Scald
- Calm Mind
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
The pressure that Empoleon puts on teams is incredible. I often don't find myself even using Calm Mind and still breaking down teams. It also checks Glalie-Mega, other Gale Wings, Aerilate, and the abundant Rock Types that are a direct result of Landorus-T.
How about, you switch your empoleon predicting gale wing and lando goes for a dragon dance ? This only counters one set out of quite a few that landorus can run.I personally have not had any trouble with Landorus-Therian, and I attribute that to this one set. Keep in mind that I am in no way discrediting anyone's opinions and this is absolutely not a statement about Landorus being banworthy. This is simply a check to Landorus that has a lot of other utility.
Empoleon @ Leftovers
Ability: Primordial Sea
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: null Atk
- Scald
- Calm Mind
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
The pressure that Empoleon puts on teams is incredible. I often don't find myself even using Calm Mind and still breaking down teams. It also checks Glalie-Mega, other Gale Wings, Aerilate, and the abundant Rock Types that are a direct result of Landorus-T.
That's why they said Empoleon is a check to Landorus, not a counter.
So when is Assist getting banned? I am frequently at a loss for an answer to such Pokemon as Contrary + Assist (from spinda) Victini pulling out assisted V-Creates, just for example. Assist is far more centralising to gameplay than any other individual strategy or any individual pokemon, and before you say "just use taunt" think about Pokemon that inherit both assist and either prankster or magic coat.
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Tbh, I said assist was broken straigh away, until everybody started running flash fire.
I personally think assist in this metagame is merely a gimmick, as the assist +prankster movepool is small, and a lot of those just get bodied by lando/atespam anyway. Granted they no longer have the oops I lose vs keldeo, but any flash fire or primesea user is still pretty bad for them. (Or suicune/rhydon, etc). All playstyles have a fairly easy way to shut down the spam that's incidental to their playstyle (no extraordinary measures have to be taken).
Precisely. Most playstyles already run something that can stop V-Create spam, be it bulky Rock-types, Flash Fire, Primordial Sea, or Espeed/Fakespeed. All of these pull their weight even against non-Assist teams, so there's little opportunity cost to running them. I think Assist is fine, for the moment.
I suppose you haven't fought my ultimate assist team yet?
Wobbuffet @ Leftovers
Ability: Shadow Tag
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Counter
- Mirror Coat
- Destiny Bond
-
Darmanitan @ Choice Band
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Assist
- Copycat
- Trick
- Protect
Victini @ Choice Band
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Assist
- Focus Punch
- Trick
- Protect
Blissey @ Heat Rock
Ability: Drought
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Counter
- Dragon Tail
- Protect
- Mimic
Dragonite @ Assault Vest
Ability: Delta Stream
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- V-create
- Dragon Tail
-
-
Heatran @ Choice Band
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Def
Adamant Nature
- Assist
- Copycat
- Trick
- Protect
Assist battles are kinda one sided, you either utterly destroy the opposition or the opposition utterly destroys you. However, this team provides much more destruction of the opposition when compared to other assist teams. Unless the opposing team packs multiple FF users or bulky resists (regirock or rhydon for example), then chances are this assist team is going to plow through most teams.
Sun-boosted choice banded v-create can achieve terrifying OHKOs and 2HKOs such as:
252+ Atk Choice Band Darmanitan V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune in Sun: 250-295 (61.8 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Darmanitan V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Regirock in Sun: 165-195 (45.3 - 53.5%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Darmanitan V-create vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria in Sun: 353-416 (99.7 - 117.5%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Heatran V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey in Sun: 747-879 (106.1 - 124.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Heatran V-create vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 411-484 (107.5 - 126.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO (without sun)
If you are wondering about the choices i made for the team, ill tell you.
Wobbuffet is detrimental for this team's success, it is easily capable of removing the bulky rock-types and FF users that haunt this team (except for FF Doublade, that cunt completely walls my entire team). Darmanitan is my main wall-breaker, and as shown in the above calcs its pretty scary in the sun. Heatran is for Landoge and Archops so that it doesn't destroy my team with BB. Victini is a well-rounded fire type that perfectly fits the role of contrary + v-create. As for the other two (Blissey and Dragonite) I feel there are Pokemon that can better fit their roles, but i cant think of any, if you guys could think of any it would be much appreciated. Anywho i have Dragonite inheriting v-create from M-Ray so that my assist team has a powerful move assist can copy, and Delta Stream is so Primordeal Sea users can't come in for free and be all like 'lol sweep'. I chose Chansey as my sun-setter because she balky af.
To be completely honest the only thing that stopped assist from being quick-banned was that there are no mold-breaker Pokemon that can learn assist.
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Would it be rude to point out that you have no sr setter so suicune does in fact wall your team? Also the lack of rhyperior/rhydon calcs saddens me. But to answer your question: yes I have. Granted it was when keldeo was legal, so there is that, but I still think that assist has enough collateral checks/counters in the format that it's fun and can certainly catch people off guard, but is not unhealthy for the metagame.I suppose you haven't fought my ultimate assist team yet?
Wobbuffet @ Leftovers
Ability: Shadow Tag
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Counter
- Mirror Coat
- Destiny Bond
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Darmanitan @ Choice Band
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Assist
- Copycat
- Trick
- Protect
Victini @ Choice Band
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Assist
- Focus Punch
- Trick
- Protect
Blissey @ Heat Rock
Ability: Drought
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Counter
- Dragon Tail
- Protect
- Mimic
Dragonite @ Assault Vest
Ability: Delta Stream
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- V-create
- Dragon Tail
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Heatran @ Choice Band
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Def
Adamant Nature
- Assist
- Copycat
- Trick
- Protect
Assist battles are kinda one sided, you either utterly destroy the opposition or the opposition utterly destroys you. However, this team provides much more destruction of the opposition when compared to other assist teams. Unless the opposing team packs multiple FF users or bulky resists (regirock or rhydon for example), then chances are this assist team is going to plow through most teams.
Sun-boosted choice banded v-create can achieve terrifying OHKOs and 2HKOs such as:
252+ Atk Choice Band Darmanitan V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune in Sun: 250-295 (61.8 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Darmanitan V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Regirock in Sun: 165-195 (45.3 - 53.5%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Darmanitan V-create vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria in Sun: 353-416 (99.7 - 117.5%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Heatran V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey in Sun: 747-879 (106.1 - 124.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Heatran V-create vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 411-484 (107.5 - 126.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO (without sun)
If you are wondering about the choices i made for the team, ill tell you.
Wobbuffet is detrimental for this team's success, it is easily capable of removing the bulky rock-types and FF users that haunt this team (except for FF Doublade, that cunt completely walls my entire team). Darmanitan is my main wall-breaker, and as shown in the above calcs its pretty scary in the sun. Heatran is for Landoge and Archops so that it doesn't destroy my team with BB. Victini is a well-rounded fire type that perfectly fits the role of contrary + v-create. As for the other two (Blissey and Dragonite) I feel there are Pokemon that can better fit their roles, but i cant think of any, if you guys could think of any it would be much appreciated. Anywho i have Dragonite inheriting v-create from M-Ray so that my assist team has a powerful move assist can copy, and Delta Stream is so Primordeal Sea users can't come in for free and be all like 'lol sweep'. I chose Chansey as my sun-setter because she balky af.
To be completely honest the only thing that stopped assist from being quick-banned was that there are no mold-breaker Pokemon that can learn assist.
#TeamAegislash
xJownage
Even pendulums swing both ways
There are several problems with lant that make things that much worse. The first of which is simple, its easy to abuse and fits on about every team imaginable, while it forces every team to dedicate a teamslot solely to counter it. Teams without Lant counters are basically 6-0'd by it (besides mega glalie teams or those with multiple sources of priority), and the mons used to counter it are limited to defensive roles hard to use on offensive playstyles, which need a boon. Many possible counters are also easily beaten outside of lando, with the exception of maybe suicune/manaphy, since they are not all that useful outside of countering lant. Not only that, but most lant should be running wisp, as adrian mentioned, which cripples each of the 3 rock type counters you mentioned.
You mention how lure sets are inherent to a mon, but think of it this way: The lure sets are just as good as the regular ones. This is actually not something that is normal with lure sets. The main reason lure sets aren't justifyable to make pokemon overpowered is because of the opportunity cost of using them; since they are the only one with said niche or lose the ability to hit certain mons by running such a set. The problem with Lant is the opportunity cost is literally zero since the role is easily fulfilled by another mon - say, archeops. Its probably to the point where lure sets are more viable, because flipping the roles of two common mons such as lant and archeops provides no detriment to your team while luring out potential checks and counters of the opponents team and killing them. If I run protean Lant and lurekill the opposing stall teams suicune, all of the sudden my GW Archeops sweeps easily. Why is this a problem? There is zero opportunity cost in running a different lant set. This is what makes Lant so broken with its versatility.
Chansey has basically no counters on offense besides guts fighting types or blaziken, it literally is just a prediction battle on anything that can't OHKO it. The problem with Chansey atm is that it literally switches into almost every mon in inheritance due to the absurd bulk. If its taking less than 66%, it can wisp and the recover off damage the next turn. As a result, it counters half of the meta and checks every non-powerful fighting type offensive mon. If this isn't unhealthy and metagame defining I really don't know what is.
Several things strike me about this statement you made. First off, most offense DOES need checks to common mons such as lant, because they are so centralizing and powerful they threaten to tear apart the team at any moment. How feasible is it to handle it in different styles? This is the issue with Lant: Everything but stall has problems, and a smart teambuilder can even give stall problems. Opportunity cost is everything in teambuilding, but when a mon is this good and has zero opportunity cost since something else can easily fulfill the same role, it is truly broken.
The versatility lant has is exactly the reason it should be banned, and as I have pointed out, the lure sets SHOULD be used over standard because of the ability they possess to demolish teams in an instant. It requires nothing but proper prediction, which is a problem. All of the counters it has are easily beaten by another set.
That being said, you mention how it is frightening how versatile it is, but because those sets are not being used, we should wait. I take exception to this logic because why should we wait for it to be just as broken? If when people start using lure sets it will become broken, why won't we just go ahead and ban it now? The fact that they aren't being used doesn't make the sets less broken. They still exist, and as soon as one person uses it it becomes broken for that person.
This being said, I completely agree with what you are saying about the lure sets, its something people don't really understand because its completely unique.
This is the exact logic that is why lant is so broken. The opportunity cost is zero. Imagine having 2 lants, one a lure, the other a standard set. Not being able to differentiate between the two, you literally go from hard to counter to impossible to counter. The problem is this is what exists right now. You can literally run copies of the same mons between archeops and lant or even staraptor, and you can't tell the difference between them until you face them. Its almost as bad as not having a species clause for offensive teams when facing it, and is obviously a problem for stall as well.
I completely agree with the notion that Archeops has the same problems as Lant, and a slight loss of bulk doesn't change that because Lant was never attempting to bulk hits all that much anyways. TBH Gale wings Archeops is probably better since it takes significantly less damage from extremespeed, and it can actually RK Mega Blaze without killing itself.
While Blissey isn't as good as Chansey is, it is easy to forsee mons that are almost as efficient to the point of just as much centralization. Prankster wisp + recovery and metal burst is such a lethal combination its hard to beat on any wall with good special defense and high HP. Im willing to wait until after a Chansey ban, however, because its not nearly as bad (offense isn't resorting to guts fighting types that can OHKO chansey).
Assist
I am tempted to say ban it because its partially uncompetitive, and I am tempted to leave it in for a suprise factor and a usable gimmick. I really don't know yet on this one. What I do know is that it can absolutely demolish many teams it should not be able to, and without an abundance of flash fire it is hard for balance to wall. I don't think it is worthy of a quickban, but I believe it needs further inspection prior to a final verdict being conceived.
I am tempted to say ban it because its partially uncompetitive, and I am tempted to leave it in for a suprise factor and a usable gimmick. I really don't know yet on this one. What I do know is that it can absolutely demolish many teams it should not be able to, and without an abundance of flash fire it is hard for balance to wall. I don't think it is worthy of a quickban, but I believe it needs further inspection prior to a final verdict being conceived.
And yeah, offense is hard to run atm. Offense certainly isn't unviable, as adrian put it, but it is very difficult to properly use.
lol i'm dumb i forgot i can't factor in SR damage because my team lacks a stealth rocker XD sorry about dat
How exactly does Suicune wall the team exactly?
Also:
252+ Atk Choice Band Darmanitan V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rhyperior in Sun: 229-270 (52.7 - 62.2%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Darmanitan V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Rhydon in Sun: 162-192 (39.1 - 46.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
No need to be sad anymore yoman5