What were the arguments against HP zap/raikou ban again?
edit:
the more and more i think about it, the snorlax-esque argument totally doesn't work for the electrics. lax is centralizing in a good way, all i can fathom are electrics centralizing in a bad way. zap is way too much of a "catch-all" in its current state, raikou is more niche, which is good, but zapdos winning the 1v1 vs nidoking the majority of the time is all sorts wrong. the beneficiary's of the change are mostly towards pokemon that are significantly weak in the current meta, and this would punish explosion teams in a extremely good way.
vap wouldn't run any more rampant, it is a pretty specialized pokemon right now, and if winrates are any indication, it isn't all too effective. the electrics would be no less of a counter to vap in its current state -- they'd be better if anything -- there's just less of an incentive to run them. and if playing the game has taught us anything, it's usually snorlax/other things that are the primary threat to vap.
steelix/marowak are two mons in the current meta that should benefit heavily from the change. playing against marowak would take more finesse now. steelix makes shuffling a much stronger strategy, which i suppose is ok. rhydon would be amazing. i like rhydon, it should be ou. this in turn should make starmie more than a one trick pony. suicune deserves a comeback too.
egg/cloyster should largely be unaffected by this change. dp/crunch ends up doing more damage to egg actually, but eggs have less incentive to trade for electrics in the first place now. the matchup against gengar is also sorta untouched in the same way.
machamp gets mostly a lateral change too imo. its matchup is worse against dp zapdos, however the usage of zapdos in general should go down, which definitely isn't a bad thing for machamp. dragonite should be better too, and who doesn't like more dragonite.
as for upsetting the raikou vs zapdos balance, that's to be seen. i think raikou is still a ridiculously good special wall, and zapdos is no longer the "catch all" splashable thing that counters every ou pokemon while being a status absorber/abuser all in one. this paves way for more screen zapdos, which is good. i don't think anybody is arguing zap/raikou falling to anywhere near BL status, they'd still be top tier OU pokemon.
snorlax gets stronger proportionally, since all we do is knock #2 and #3 down a peg while leaving #1 untouched. however in theory, there should be more physical attackers with the hp legends gone, which should make snorlax a bit tougher to play. this is just pure theory though.
we leave the hp jolteons untouched.
as for teams in general, stalls and offense both take a small hit, but gain a small boost. explosion teams are punished now with zapdos being less flexible than before, however you have more offensive tools with marowak/rhydon being better. nidoking/dragonite gets a boost too, as does steelix. basically we bring back skill to offense. defensive teams are hurt in the same way, but again with steelix/rhydon being better means you have more options running those two on pure stalls abusing spikes. miltank is definitely better now, and umbreon might make a comeback. this in turn might mean kanga and shit coming back too
i literally can't find a single thing negative about banning hp on these two.
edit:
the more and more i think about it, the snorlax-esque argument totally doesn't work for the electrics. lax is centralizing in a good way, all i can fathom are electrics centralizing in a bad way. zap is way too much of a "catch-all" in its current state, raikou is more niche, which is good, but zapdos winning the 1v1 vs nidoking the majority of the time is all sorts wrong. the beneficiary's of the change are mostly towards pokemon that are significantly weak in the current meta, and this would punish explosion teams in a extremely good way.
vap wouldn't run any more rampant, it is a pretty specialized pokemon right now, and if winrates are any indication, it isn't all too effective. the electrics would be no less of a counter to vap in its current state -- they'd be better if anything -- there's just less of an incentive to run them. and if playing the game has taught us anything, it's usually snorlax/other things that are the primary threat to vap.
steelix/marowak are two mons in the current meta that should benefit heavily from the change. playing against marowak would take more finesse now. steelix makes shuffling a much stronger strategy, which i suppose is ok. rhydon would be amazing. i like rhydon, it should be ou. this in turn should make starmie more than a one trick pony. suicune deserves a comeback too.
egg/cloyster should largely be unaffected by this change. dp/crunch ends up doing more damage to egg actually, but eggs have less incentive to trade for electrics in the first place now. the matchup against gengar is also sorta untouched in the same way.
machamp gets mostly a lateral change too imo. its matchup is worse against dp zapdos, however the usage of zapdos in general should go down, which definitely isn't a bad thing for machamp. dragonite should be better too, and who doesn't like more dragonite.
as for upsetting the raikou vs zapdos balance, that's to be seen. i think raikou is still a ridiculously good special wall, and zapdos is no longer the "catch all" splashable thing that counters every ou pokemon while being a status absorber/abuser all in one. this paves way for more screen zapdos, which is good. i don't think anybody is arguing zap/raikou falling to anywhere near BL status, they'd still be top tier OU pokemon.
snorlax gets stronger proportionally, since all we do is knock #2 and #3 down a peg while leaving #1 untouched. however in theory, there should be more physical attackers with the hp legends gone, which should make snorlax a bit tougher to play. this is just pure theory though.
we leave the hp jolteons untouched.
as for teams in general, stalls and offense both take a small hit, but gain a small boost. explosion teams are punished now with zapdos being less flexible than before, however you have more offensive tools with marowak/rhydon being better. nidoking/dragonite gets a boost too, as does steelix. basically we bring back skill to offense. defensive teams are hurt in the same way, but again with steelix/rhydon being better means you have more options running those two on pure stalls abusing spikes. miltank is definitely better now, and umbreon might make a comeback. this in turn might mean kanga and shit coming back too
i literally can't find a single thing negative about banning hp on these two.
Last edited: