np: UU Stage 2.1 - You Are Invited

[YABO]

You guys are acting like Serp is the second coming of Jesus. Despite Leaf Storm doing "damage" (it's pitifully weak without boosts and especially without Life Orb) its still needs at least one free turn get set up and start doing damage. I just wanna ask how that's different from any set up sweeper in any tier... ever. Those free turns aren't all that easy to come by tbh, like people much smarter than myself have pointed out (Hikari/Koko). And lastly, holy crap if Koko doesn't want to ban it, it's clearly not broken (/badjoke).

I'm just tired of UU players wanting to ban anything that has attacks and does damage.

The primary issue that I have with Serperior is like others have said, that it sets up at the same time that it is attacking. With many common set up sweepers you can cut its sweep short by basically sacking the current mon you have in to knock it into range for something else on your team. An example of this would be staying in on NP PZ with your 50% Swampert to fire off an EQ and put it into range of your Entei's Extremespeed. That's just one example of "not letting something set up for free" per se. Serperior doesn't have this difficulty as even if you stay in, it's just going to kill you and receive a free +2 as well.

Also, to address Roserade and Amoonguss very briefly, I'd like to point out that by far the most common partner for Serperior is Mega Aerodactyl who handles these two remarkably well. I know that shouldn't reflect on Serperior necessarily, but the ease with which you can support Serp is almost troubling. Regardless, voting ban/no ban on something is completely subjective and I'm not sure why everyone gets their panties in a bunch when someone disagrees with them.

 

[Kink]

Did someone say panties?

So I've been running a strict anti-serp squad, and despite destroying the living crap out if serperiors, I do notice the centralizing effect it has on the meta game. Going into this suspect, I was dedicated to keeping an open mind, but minds are stupid and I quickly realized the objective nature of Serperior's viability. Meowiekins is correct when he says that serp snagging the KO w/ the boost is simply too easy to take advantage of.

 

[Mahmudkipz]

Besides what has been said, I'd like to note that one of the most threatening parts about Serperior is that most of its checks are weak to rocks (e.g. Fire, Flying and Bug types), while being a Grass type allows it to beat most of the common hazzards removers, which are mostly Ground or Water types bar Forry/Crobat. Combined that with the fact that it practically gets free setup on mons that are slower and Grass weak (as Meowiekins pointed out), it is extremely potent at sweeping.

 

[Ernesto]

Something to keep in mind is that Aero needs max Attack to rk Serp, defensive variants will get rekt by +2 Leaf Storm (also lol, I had my Serp tank a Crobat's BB after switching into Defog trying to sack it. If I'd had some luck with evasion I could've actually beat it). And Serp's existance alone makes Sticky Web that much harder to build around—granted Sticky Web was never common outside of lower ladder, but I think that's worth mentioning). Those things alone obviously don't make Serp broken, but they do add up.

Also kokoloko , imo you should try SubDD with Waterfall + either Ice Punch or Crunch. I dunno if you need Crunch that much since you're setting up on bulky Water-types anyway, but I guess beating CM Cune (and Slowking) is more useful. It pretty much depends on how much Crunch is doing to Ice Punch targets, tho.

 

[Saria]

Also, to address Roserade and Amoonguss very briefly, I'd like to point out that by far the most common partner for Serperior is Mega Aerodactyl who handles these two remarkably well. I know that shouldn't reflect on Serperior necessarily, but the ease with which you can support Serp is almost troubling. Regardless, voting ban/no ban on something is completely subjective and I'm not sure why everyone gets their panties in a bunch when someone disagrees with them.

Does Aerodactyl really handle Roserade and Amoonguss with easy? It achieves nothing by using Pursuit on Amoonguss because Serperior does 0 damage if it doens't use +2 HP Ice, and Regenerator heals almost all Pursuit damage. Roserade has a harder time switching out from Aero, but Aero can't freely switch into Roserade because Sleep Powder + 125 Special Attack can be really threatening.

So Serperior takes 12% SR damage + 10% LO damage and then it's forced out, and next time it switches in it'll take 12% again. If you happen to have Pursuit Mega Aerodactyl, you could potentially trap Roserade after taking some risks (and it can setup hazards to wear down Serperior even more), but Amoonguss can just switch out and be healthy enough to stop Serperior again. And then Mega Aerodactly has to deal with something that counters it.

Sweeper can't break through Wall
Sweeper's s teammate switches into Wall
Wall's teammate switches into Sweeper's teammate

All Pokemon involved get worn down. That doesn't show the "ease with which you can support Serp", that's just how Pokemon works.

This is exactly what I mean when I say Serperior isn't the only Pokemon that has team support. If you ignore team support, you can argue stuff like Mega Beedrill are broken because it can U-turn out of its counters and Specs Chandelure can OHKO all of them. But Pokemon is a game of 6v6, not 6v1.

I'm not anti-ban or pro-ban right now. I just want people to talk about realistic scenarios. (like the first part of your post)

 

[Godsend]

It just feels like you guys are trying to ban on theory. Serp really doesn't snowball as bad as you make it seem, honestly.

 

[GOthee]

It just feels like you guys are trying to ban on theory. Serp really doesn't snowball as bad as you make it seem, honestly.

I feel that in a metagame where you dont have many grass or poison types Serperior is indded pretty broken, however as we can see in UU there are enough counters to it that any good team can deal with it without many problems.

 

[DiscoDucky]

It just feels like you guys are trying to ban on theory. Serp really doesn't snowball as bad as you make it seem, honestly.

It's a transition phase between the previous system and the Suspect system.

 

[Sae]

It just feels like you guys are trying to ban on theory. Serp really doesn't snowball as bad as you make it seem, honestly.

I agree that the threat of Serperior is vastly scarier on paper, but in reality it isn't as broken as it looks. Whenever I see a Serperior team at team preview, all I think to myself is "don't give the opponent an easy setup." That being said, it doesn't get free chances to sweep because it comes off of a base 75 Special Attack. It is really threatening late game, and it scares off many Pokemon, but you have to realize that sometimes you can't just keep switching. Often times when you switch, you get punished a lot harder than if you just stayed in and tried attacking. Serperior to me just emphasizes this fact since you have to make more precise choices to A) stay away from these situations and B) when it actually makes you choose. Any good team should be prepared to take on a Serperior, but you also have to have the right mindset to go about playing against it. It's dangerous, but it isn't nearly as innately broken as say Mega Pinsir was. Serperior is a threat, a very very scary threat, but there are viable ways of dealing with it like Roserade and Amoonguss.

Originally, I went into the suspect wanting to ban it, but after battling in UU again after my semi-hiatus after SPL Farm ended and watching other people battle I just can't find myself making a decision. As it is I'm neutral at the moment, but I really do think that while Serperior is hard to manage, it is manageable. My only question is if it really pushes that border of being manageable to being "manageable."

 

[Hogg]

The problem is, most mons in Serperior's position have to balance the risk/reward ratio between killing and setting up. Serperior doesn't have that problem.

Also, the high BP of Serp's Leaf Storm kind of invalidates any arguments about the low SpAt - even at +0, Serp's Leaf Storm hits significantly harder than a similarly invested Roserade's Giga Drain, despite the fact that Rose's base SpAt is 50 points higher.

When Serp first dropped, I thought it was strong but reasonable. Now, as several different sets have evolved and the metagame has shifted so that Serperior's counters are easily handled, I think it's absolutely over-centralizing. Most new drops, like Mence or Hera, shake things up a bit when they first drop and then things calm down and the metagame settles around them. Serperior on the other hand has actually been getting more dangerous as time goes on. It might not be as borked as Pinserite or Terrakion, but it's still deadly, and I'm personally leaning toward a vote to ban.

 

[Empress]

Cool, just got reqs after not playing UU for half a year. It sure looks a lot different now! Onto Serp.

This is a clear choice- ban this piece of shit and send it to the purgatory that is BL. It is extremely easy to get a sweep with Serperior because Leaf Storm is deceptively strong. Hogg above me pretty much nailed it; even with 75 base SpA, the 130 base power of Leaf Storm still severely dents anything that doesn't resist it, meaning Serp can easily clean something up and just keep racking up kills for your team. Of course it has its checks in Crobat, Salamence, Aerodactyl, and many more that have already been said, but it can deal with several of them through Glare on the switch. Very few mons can completely counter Serp; check out this post by reachzero if you want to see some answers to it- all 3 of them. These 3 mons and Serp's numerous checks are not enough to make it not broken, however, as it has so few counters and deals with its checks with Glare so well. With the ease that Serp has in demolishing a vast portion of the tier, it's become apparent to me that it needs to go ASAP. I used it on my team while laddering and it won me numerous games that I should not have won otherwise. Granted, laddering isn't the best way to fully determine whether a suspect is broken or not, but it's a decent indicator that gave me extensive firsthand experience.

 

[reachzero]

I agree with various critics that Serperior's offensive power in its first turn after switching in is not great. It is almost certainly not OHKOing things that are neutral to Grass, which means that if you are willing to eat its first attack and you can OHKO or at least heavily damage it, you can have good success against Serperior. Where this becomes practically difficult is that it is almost impossible to avoid having one or more Pokemon on your team that will let Serperior set up--bulky Water types are practically a necessity to avoid being destroyed by Fire types and Mega Aero, and at any rate there are always Pokemon that have taken prior damage earlier in the game as the game progresses. Serperior doesn't have the best defenses by any means, but it is bulky enough to not be OHKOed by the bulky waters it prefers to come in on, meaning that staying in and attacking is a rather risky proposition....In other words, Serperior functions like a normal Grass type, coming in on exactly the same switches that Pokemon like Shaymin come in on (though Shaymin is noticeably bulkier). If Serperior were hard to get in and set up like Azelf, Infernape or Lucario, I'd be completely fine with it in UU. All of those Pokemon give your team very little from a defensive standpoint. The same can't be said of Serperior. I will concede that a HO team probably has little trouble with Serperior, but not everyone runs HO, nor would it be healthy if they did.

 

[Nysyr]

Not sure if I'll bother with suspect voting/testing but I figured I'd drop my thoughts.

This test seems pretty familiar to the Haxorus test where your preferred play-style shaped your opinion of the suspect. Balance/Stall having a harder time than Offence will, since Serp doesn't have the best bulk around at all and it has to abuse its speed tier. Offence generally doesn't care too much for Serp since it doesn't slap bulky waters on the team that Serp feeds off of.

The hidden power coverage is really a double edge sword. On one hand it can choose its counters, but at the same time Hidden power has garbage damage output and team structure can really reveal what coverage you'd run. Sometimes you are better off clicking Leafstorm even if Hidden Power would do more.

Really, I think the fatass mons running around in the Meta has everyone in the mindset that every team must have a counter to every threat and when something comes into the meta that disrupts that paradigm everyone freaks. A lesson in saving sacrifices and learning the trades is important here, because unless your name is crocune this thing does not get in for free.

I would lean towards no ban just because 113 base speed, while a great speed tier, still just doesn't cut it these days when things that run around like your average scarfer, Mega Aero, Azelf, Mega Doom(evo'd), Crobat can all revenge this thing and stop the snowballing. The ramp up time gives things that wouldn't really stand a chance otherwise to switch the ability to stomach the second hit and RK. Lets face it, even with dragon pulse you can't get around Goodra or other sap sipper mons.

So now for the glare portion... This is where I bring up the point of saving sacs, or evaluating the state of the board in front of you to find a member of the team that won't be pulling its weight anymore, since it obviously didn't in for free unless you got your pants played off of you. Perhaps Adapting your bulky waters to not be free switchins for Serp by carrying Icebeam on 'cune instead of the cro' set would fix your Serp problems for example. Serp glaring your crobat? Plan for having a cleric if crobat is your only go to for Serp.

I'm not convinced this thing is broken.


contrary on defog is pretty bs tho lol.

 

[Patrick1088]

Can I ask a question really quick about the "N" value to get Reqs? I've never done it before, but am getting close (2045 COIL). But, my I plugged my GXE into the formula and got something like 214. Am I doing something wrong?

N=20.0/log2(40*GXE/2500)

GXE= 64

Any help folks?

But, regarding Serperior, it's really a tough bag to be honest. I think it's easy to say that slapping Crobat, Roserade, AV Goodra, X check isn't centralizing since these mons have uses outside of just checking Serperior. But, is the availability of Leaf Storm + Contrary that lets it picks off weakened mons while boosting. This snowball effect does remind me of Moxie mons. Hera, Krook and Mence can all sweep teams once the checks and counters have been effectively removed, whether by a coverage move or teammate (Mega Aero for example in regards to Serperior).

Now, I've seen people comparing Serp to Haxorus, which has been effectively UU for awhile now. Haxorus can either hit hard or boost, Serp can do both simultaneously with Leaf Storm. So, I don't think that's a good comparison.

I don't think it's a fair comparison to Victini, as well. V-Create along with Thunder, Zen Headbutt, Grass Knot allows it to KO almost every possible check and counter wit the exception to Physical Defensive M-Amphy. One mispredict (or good predict for your opponent) can cost you your sole Victini check. After Victini attacks, it was of course vulnerable, especially if it was locked into one move. This 50/50 game of predicting correctly is more similar to Serperior IMO.

Now, we get to Serperior. We all agree that it's movepool is barren limiting it to just Glare, Hidden Power Ice/Fire, Dragon Pulse, Giga Drain, Taunt, Dual Screens, Synthesis, oh and Leaf Storm. It's movepool isn't great like Victini's (V-Create, Thunder, Zen Headbutt, GK, etc..), nor is it able to boost its stats like Haxorus. Unboosted Serp isn't a threat as many have said and agree. But, it's preventing that first boost without crippling your one check that forces players into the 50/50 situation. You can switch in your Crobat expecting the Leaf Storm, but then it ends up being Glare'd and possibly crippled the rest of the match. So, do you risk letting the Serperior boost, or risk crippling your one check for the rest of the match?

Once this snowball effect happens, it can be quite difficult to stop unless you have multiple Serperior checks (i.e. Crobat, Roserade, M-Aggron, M-Beedrill, etc..). I believe that Serperior definitely does restrict team building to require hard multiple hard checks. But, I think that Serperior does this more so than other cleaners/sweepers/wall breakers like Moxie users. Having a special wall or bulky poison type doesn't guarantee that you can check Serperior since it can boost extremely fast.

I don't think Serp promotes a healthy meta, where mindless clicking (Leaf Storm/Glare most of the time) can win games. I'm leaning more Ban at this time, unless something drastic changes my mind...

 

[Yifeng]

Can I ask a question really quick about the "N" value to get Reqs? I've never done it before, but am getting close (2045 COIL). But, my I plugged my GXE into the formula and got something like 214. Am I doing something wrong?

N=20.0/log2(40*GXE/2500)

GXE= 64

Any help folks?

I have no idea how you got 214. But I guess the way the equation was written isn't really that explicit.

If it was written in a more explicit manner it would look like this:

, With N being the number of battles you have to play

The logarithmic term can be written as:

If we plug your GXE(64.4) and your current coil(2045) into the formula, it tells me that you have played 60 games. Which is in fact the case.

If we plug the suspect test requirement (2500 COIL) into the formula, along your current GXE(64.4), it predicts that it will take you ~463 games to hit 2500 COIL. Don't be frightened though, if you improve your GXE to say, 70, it will drop the number of games you have to play down to ~122 .

The relationship between your GXE and the number of battle you will need to reach the requirement is an inverse logarithmic decay, So the lower your GXE, the number of battles you need to play will increase exponentially.

 

[Patrick1088]

Yifeng thanks for the information! Its been a few years since ive been out of school, soi had no idea was i doing wrong. I just clicked the formula and it brought me into Google and i just plugged inbmy numbers and got 214 (i did get 463 when the gxe was lower).

 

[Thisbemyalt]

Now while I do understand why some people will say No ban on serp (because frankly its checks are more common than people make it seem), I have pretty much decided that I will be voting Ban. Mostly for reasons that have been stated above in particular the way serp just destroys stall and really hurts balanced. However I believe Hikari makes a good point regarding the quality of serp answers and upon reading the points he/she made I have decided to maybe ladder more with teams that are not 100% made to destroy serp so I can more properly gauge its effect on the meta.

 

[alejandrosh]

is there a voter identification thread yet?

btw #savethesnake

 

[Christo]

is there a voter identification thread yet?

btw #savethesnake

There will be one in the next few days.

 

[Freeroamer]

My issue with Serperior is the same as many pro-ban arguments have suggested, that in by setting up and attacking at the same time, Serperior turns a huge amount of the tier into liberties to have, due to their ability to give it a free set up turn if you like. The main issue with most set up sweepers in UU is that they struggle to find the turn to set up, SD Lucario is brutal at +2 but due to it's common weaknesses and meagre bulk it struggles to find a set up opportunity. Serperior does not have this issue, in that it finds completely free set up opportunities on any Grass weak pokemon, and quite a few frail offensive threats neutral to Grass, with very few repercussions other than wasting 1 PP of Leaf Storm's 8(shoutout to the guy I actually saw using Leppa Serperior). By doing this, it makes these pokemon unviable in the tier, thus centralising the tier around which pokemon don't give it those free set up opportunities. I'm willing to accept that defensive threats lose to top threats in the metagame, it's why they're top threats after all, however one that not only beats many a defensive check, but just gets stronger as it does it and turns said defensive threat into a liability for it's team in a tier where few Serperior checks exist?(Note my definition of check doesn't include revenge killer, I see the terms differently) That seems too much for the tier for me. Ban.

 

[Wanka]

Still leaning towards ban now tht my reqs journey is over. Yes serp has a shitly high amount of checks but 90% of them are weak to rocks and can get worn down super easily. shit like rotom mega burd and any flying resist tbh can get worn down. And the whole weak spA argument is absolute bull. leaf storm is a 130bp move. Even tho serp only hits like 250 spA paired with a meadow pl8 or a life orb, by no means is it weak. And to piggy bank on that topic, being tht storm is by no means weak you also get a +2 boost. using a 130bp move to a get +2 boost is absolutely insane. This shit needs to leave. and you cant say it isnt centralizing because it is. while amoogus, bouffalaunt, dragalge, roserade, and goodra are decent mons they arnt the first things that pop into our head when teambulding. CB goodra is Decent so ill let it slide along with roserade but any check this fucker has is extremely pressured, even crobat, after rocks and some leaf storms it is forced to defog which loses any and all momentum giving you the upper hand. even forry, If forry gets too low it doesn't like taking storms and you can synthesis off gyros to an extent. It simply just is not healthy, no 2 ways about it. Hikari and koko make some really good points but I just don't think its healthy, because in the event you don't have something to help out with serp it is extremely difficult to beat.

 

[Yifeng]

Leppa Berry Serperior sounds stupidly viable...

 

[badabing]

the term centralizing is kind of dangerous. when you suddenly introduce something strong into the metagame obviously it will have a significant impact on teambuilding and viability. a distinction needs to be made between general suspect centralization (which is going to be an even greater symptom of this tier due to the carpeted bans and incremental testing) vs broken centralizaiton. ask yourself, are you scrambling every time time this nigga hits the floor? does it break things too easily or are games defined by who sweeps with serp first? do you find yourself forced into using ridiculous checks or lures due to just how threatening this one mon is? it should be really obvious and unfun if the metagame is actually centralized at that level. the last legitimately centralizing things i remember thru my years of suspect testing were darkrai and drizz + ss in bw ou... so think twice before you toss those buzzwords around.

and no most of those rhetorical questions don't apply to serp either imo. it is outsped and kod by many relevant pokemon in the tier, most of which are more than capable of sustaining the initial hit to straight up check it. glare is not an end all be all because it can't really afford to throw those around risk free with mediocre typing and bulk. infiltrator bat (an s rank pokemon in the tier that can find a place on any playstyle) even rules out sub which would allow you to play it a lot more steadily and capitalize on serp's presence risk free. the existence of that one mon alone isn't enough to say serp isn't broken, but the point is meant to illustrate the risk of serp being nigh useless in a decent amount of games no matter what it does. if it breaks thru one mon with good playing, it's still standard to see at least 2 mons that outspeed it on offense or 1 faster and 1 defensive check on balance and it doesn't seem as constraining to accommodate as people are making it out to be. and outspeeding/taking 2 hits alone is usually enough lol due to how shitty it is on the defensive side. hikari's post above did a really good job explaining how difficult it is to chip and consistently break teams with serp over time (as in it can't just play the waiting game) so i suggest you look at that too. i won't delve into the bad offensive typing and subpar coverage options just for completeness sake because it still manages to be a threat despite all of that and i think if it didn't have that flaw then this mon's package would be undeniably broken.

i wanted to make a point as well about suicune being retarded and serp offering a nice check for offense too, but serp doesnt even check it that well due to pp (lol). and that argument pathway of potentially broken shit balancing other broken shit isn't ideal in the first place.

don't quote this post. i didn't apply as much flavor as i normally like because i feel like utter shit. i'm probably not gonna vote either im trying to quit. also i innovated defensive uturn whims.

 

[skies]

Serperior is a Pokemon I have not had much experience playing against or playing with. I'd played 40 battles, and only seen about 4 Seperior; to spice it up, I tried using it myself. In just 10 battles with it, I've realized just how insanely powerful this Pokemon is. Leaf Storm is so insanely powerful at +2, and it just gets stronger and stronger as it goes on, as we all know. However, I don't think this is what makes Serperior such a powerful Pokemon. The reason I think Serperior is too strong in UU is because it forces things like Mega Beedrill and Mega Aerodactyl to make their way on to every team, which isn't a bad thing, per say, but if you lack something with a higher Speed than you're going to get run over by it. And you know what's worse? Glare. Glare instantly cripples any faster Pokemon that tries to switch and gives Serprior such ease to walk over teams. Supposed checks like the aforementioned Megas now get smacked by Serperior when they switch in, and are then useless for the rest of the match. A STAB move with 130 base power that also has a Nasty Plot effect, with no drawbacks, is what makes Serperior so strong in the first place. Running the situational Sap Sipper Pokemon like Goodra or Bouffalant just to counter Serprior go to show how overcentralzing this Pokemon is. Serperior most certainly has my vote for ban.

 

[Euphonos]

What makes Serperior devastating to play against is switching into something that is immune to the trump card: Leaf Storm; once Leaf Storm is used and gets a +2 Special Attack (well, there's a 10% chance to miss, but I shouldn't delve the accuracy issue here), there would be those Specially Defensive Pokemon that couldn't take a boosted hit anymore. One big example would be Serperior using Leaf Storm against Blissey:

+2 252 SpA Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 228-268 (31.9 - 37.5%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+4 252 SpA Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 339-400 (47.4 - 56%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 252 SpA Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 453-534 (63.4 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Of course, Blissey can disrupt Serperior's role with either Thunder Wave or Toxic, but I'm not sure how common status moves Blissey uses, and Blissey isn't that too common in the UU tier.

My point here is, it takes a lot of moves to take down Serperior, which would be a lot more annoying to face unless you pack Sap Sipper Pokemon (Goodra, Bouffalant, Sawsbuck) or Shedinja (watch out for Hidden Power Fire/Rock variants).