Dude even if bliss switches in it can beat Serp if it has toxic and can proceed to wish/protect.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
np: UU Stage 2.1 - You Are Invited
- Thread starter Sam
- Start date
- Status
Stall breaker serp, one of the best sets, carries taunt
Serp naturally puts pressure on stall and that's gonna make it do even worse against offense/balance because without the extra coverage there are going to be more opportunities to switch in.
Serp has trouble getting past blissey without taunt, as with taunt it can dodge toxic and not get wishtect stalled. Taunt Serperior basically 6-0s stall, which is a huge benefit for running taunt. There's also no rule against running both Taunt and Glare - one of my favorite serp sets rn is glare / taunt / hp ice / leaf storm. Serperior can pick and choose what it wants to beat, including playstyles, which is part of what makes it so scary.
Serp doesnt need more than one coverage move. any set that it runs whether its glare synth, taunt synth, or sub glare only runs one other coverage move ur not losing any coverage by running a stall breaker set.
Well then you're giving up glare which forces you to lose to Crobat, who is pretty much a given on stall these days due to Heracross' prevalence in the tier.
Alright, so after doing about half my reqs, I still believe serp is not broken. I said I would make a big post about why I believe serp should not be banned, and I,will be repeating previous points I have said earlier. It seems the fate of the snake is already sealed, so I don't know how much this will do.
1.Serperiors abilities have very low pp
With both his defining attack move and his recovery having only 8pp ,serp is very prone to getting stalled out. If you have a switch in, it becomes ridiculously easy to check k serp, because the player will have to risk wasting a precious Leaf Storm to try and hit the switch in , or use an inferior coverage mive, and do pitable damage. With the addition of all the mons with pressure roaming around the tier, and the prevalence of sand and other weather that hampers serperiors recovery, it's not hard to slowly chip away at serps resources
2. Serperior is very prone to being worn down
This comes in conjunction with my previous point, because synthesis is only 8 pp, and Gigs drain isn't even considered reliable recovery. While stealth rock isn't very potent on it, spikes and t spikes do a number on this pokemon, and it's Reliance on either substitute for defensive sets, or LO recoil for offensive, makes it very hard to switch in with the appropriate pressure before killing itself or simply not being able to come in due to hazard pressure.
3. 75 base spattk is weak
Yes, serp will invest in its special attack, making it stronger. Yes, leaf storm will kinda counterbalance this weakness, but the big thing about this is that when it uses a lower bp, non stab coverage move, it's going to be doing almost nothing to dedicated walls and stops. I often find it has a difficult time wearing down its checks and stuff just because even a lo d-pulse doesn't do any significant damage to most things.
4. Serperior has a serious case of 4mss
Basically, sometimes I feel like people like to think this is serps most common set when making their arguments (not all the time)
Serperior @ Life Orb
Ability: Contrary
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Leaf Storm
- Dragon Pulse
- Taunt
- Synthesis
- Glare
- Hidden Power Fire
- Substitute
- Hidden Power ice
- Giga Drain
Serp can't run all of these moves guys, and has different checks and counters and destroys different styles depending on the set. Serp really isn't that unpredictable either. It pretty much almost always carries leaf storm+coverage move, and the other ones won't punish you for scouting them bar glare.
5. The argument for simply glaring a switchin is weak, and can be applied to many different sweepers.
So, a guy responded to my previous post about this, so Ill be responding a bit to that, but more restating what I previously said. Basically, you can't call a switch in obsolete and useless once it switches into status. By that logic, we should ban florges and blissey because "it uses toxic and cripples switch ins for the rest of the game." Chances are, after a Mon gets paralyzed, it's still at least a bit useful. And even if it isnt, it can switch in again and again, no matter what status it has. Plus stall, serps biggest victim, almost always have a cleric of some kind. In addition, many sweepers in uu, namely absol, pz, and alakazam can all learn thunder wave and paralyze their switchins. If paralysis is so good, why don't they start running it and paralyzing their checks? You may be thinking by this point "But glare can paralyze ground and electric types." Well, no one is gonna switch in an electric or ground type into serp so yeah.
I think I'm gonna stop now, and maybe add a bit later, while bracing myself for no ban hate.
Tl;dr While I see the pro bans side to the argument, I believe banning is not necessarily the answer to serps many flaws.
1.Serperiors abilities have very low pp
With both his defining attack move and his recovery having only 8pp ,serp is very prone to getting stalled out. If you have a switch in, it becomes ridiculously easy to check k serp, because the player will have to risk wasting a precious Leaf Storm to try and hit the switch in , or use an inferior coverage mive, and do pitable damage. With the addition of all the mons with pressure roaming around the tier, and the prevalence of sand and other weather that hampers serperiors recovery, it's not hard to slowly chip away at serps resources
2. Serperior is very prone to being worn down
This comes in conjunction with my previous point, because synthesis is only 8 pp, and Gigs drain isn't even considered reliable recovery. While stealth rock isn't very potent on it, spikes and t spikes do a number on this pokemon, and it's Reliance on either substitute for defensive sets, or LO recoil for offensive, makes it very hard to switch in with the appropriate pressure before killing itself or simply not being able to come in due to hazard pressure.
3. 75 base spattk is weak
Yes, serp will invest in its special attack, making it stronger. Yes, leaf storm will kinda counterbalance this weakness, but the big thing about this is that when it uses a lower bp, non stab coverage move, it's going to be doing almost nothing to dedicated walls and stops. I often find it has a difficult time wearing down its checks and stuff just because even a lo d-pulse doesn't do any significant damage to most things.
4. Serperior has a serious case of 4mss
Basically, sometimes I feel like people like to think this is serps most common set when making their arguments (not all the time)
Serperior @ Life Orb
Ability: Contrary
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Leaf Storm
- Dragon Pulse
- Taunt
- Synthesis
- Glare
- Hidden Power Fire
- Substitute
- Hidden Power ice
- Giga Drain
Serp can't run all of these moves guys, and has different checks and counters and destroys different styles depending on the set. Serp really isn't that unpredictable either. It pretty much almost always carries leaf storm+coverage move, and the other ones won't punish you for scouting them bar glare.
5. The argument for simply glaring a switchin is weak, and can be applied to many different sweepers.
So, a guy responded to my previous post about this, so Ill be responding a bit to that, but more restating what I previously said. Basically, you can't call a switch in obsolete and useless once it switches into status. By that logic, we should ban florges and blissey because "it uses toxic and cripples switch ins for the rest of the game." Chances are, after a Mon gets paralyzed, it's still at least a bit useful. And even if it isnt, it can switch in again and again, no matter what status it has. Plus stall, serps biggest victim, almost always have a cleric of some kind. In addition, many sweepers in uu, namely absol, pz, and alakazam can all learn thunder wave and paralyze their switchins. If paralysis is so good, why don't they start running it and paralyzing their checks? You may be thinking by this point "But glare can paralyze ground and electric types." Well, no one is gonna switch in an electric or ground type into serp so yeah.
I think I'm gonna stop now, and maybe add a bit later, while bracing myself for no ban hate.
Tl;dr While I see the pro bans side to the argument, I believe banning is not necessarily the answer to serps many flaws.
Please remember that the move that makes serperior a threat has only 8 pp! This is huge because it means that serperior cant beak through all stall teams. Yes checks can indeed be crippled by glare but healbell and aroma is pretty prevelent in stall and somewhat common in standard teams. The unforsakable truth is that serperior is really easy to sweep with in low ladder because those teams cant usually take a hit, but in high ladder teams there are countless amounts of checks and one or two counters. I want serperior to stay because it puts pressure on suicune and makes the meta a bit more fast paced. If you want to know how to combat serperior here are a few strategies / pokemon you can use. You will soon realize that serperior is not as much a threat as it seemed to be.
SpDerf Roserade: SlugeBomb kills and Roserade can set up spikes, leechseed, or sleep powder on the switch.
Any Goodra (I like Banded): Has Sap Sipper and D pulse does almost 40 on no invested Goodra. Outrage kills and physical is unnexpected. PowerWhip for suicune. Irontail for florges, and eq for doublade and aggron to an extent. Mixed with fireblast is really good as well.
Rotom-Heat: Scarf is best since after rocks and taking one leaf storm i think d pulse kills. Threatens serp out and can give you the momentum with v switch.
Mega Aero, Mega Bee: Faster and can revenge/ set up on the switch or after a kill.
Crobat: Hates Glare but heal bell should be with a crobat somewhere on the team.
Umbreon: Not really a check but can takes 3 leafstorms to kill if going for wish. It wears down pp on eaf storm and if he predicts something else on the team to switch in such as crobat, then umbreons synchronize can paralyse the serp.
Stuff that is faster with assault vest!
Stuff that is scarfed and can take a leaf storm!
Stuff with spdef with protect!
Moltres
Pressure users
Smite would be cool on umbreon
Heracorss does pretty well against this too
People like to get good at the current meta. If the meta is constantly changing, it takes more time to adapt and to stay good. I think thats what people are scared of. We cant just banned everything that appears to be overpowered. If suicune was dropped like serperior was, I think it would have had the same chance as serp does. Plus you can miss leafstorm...
SpDerf Roserade: SlugeBomb kills and Roserade can set up spikes, leechseed, or sleep powder on the switch.
Any Goodra (I like Banded): Has Sap Sipper and D pulse does almost 40 on no invested Goodra. Outrage kills and physical is unnexpected. PowerWhip for suicune. Irontail for florges, and eq for doublade and aggron to an extent. Mixed with fireblast is really good as well.
Rotom-Heat: Scarf is best since after rocks and taking one leaf storm i think d pulse kills. Threatens serp out and can give you the momentum with v switch.
Mega Aero, Mega Bee: Faster and can revenge/ set up on the switch or after a kill.
Crobat: Hates Glare but heal bell should be with a crobat somewhere on the team.
Umbreon: Not really a check but can takes 3 leafstorms to kill if going for wish. It wears down pp on eaf storm and if he predicts something else on the team to switch in such as crobat, then umbreons synchronize can paralyse the serp.
Stuff that is faster with assault vest!
Stuff that is scarfed and can take a leaf storm!
Stuff with spdef with protect!
Moltres
Pressure users
Smite would be cool on umbreon
Heracorss does pretty well against this too
People like to get good at the current meta. If the meta is constantly changing, it takes more time to adapt and to stay good. I think thats what people are scared of. We cant just banned everything that appears to be overpowered. If suicune was dropped like serperior was, I think it would have had the same chance as serp does. Plus you can miss leafstorm...
Hey, does anyone know when this suspect test ends?
Ok im sick of you guys saying serp is weak. IT IS A FUCKING 130BP MOVE THAT IS MOST LIKELY PAIRED WITH A LIFE ORB OR A MEADOW PL8. By no means is that weak and using a 130bp move not only to bop ur opponent but get boosts out the ass is insane. I would not really say PP is too much of an issue because you are not necessarily sweeping all 6 mons most of the time and if you get enough boost you can revert to a coverage move.
OK time to debunk these:
Roserade: Sludgebomb does NOT kill, and Roserade has a chance to die to Leaf Storm on switch + HP Ice + HP Ice, because Serp lives a hit from Rose.
Goodra: Is an answer, but is a very (in general terms) mediocre pokemon, and shouldn't be made insanely viable due to hardchecking Serp.
Rotom-H: Weak to rocks, easily worn down with team support, forces 50/50, as Serp can stay in as you predict switch and VSwitch, and Leaf Storm something as you go for resisted VSwitch.
Mega Aero and Mega Bee: Revenge Killers aren't exactly perfect for Serp, because you have to Sac a mon to it before bringing them in.
Crobat: Glare rapes it on switch, and while Heal Bell should be "somewhere on the team" that means you have effectively made Crobat a liability until heal bell goes off, and Taunt Serp can even keep you from getting Heal Bell off in certain situations.
Umbreon: Not at all a check, Taunt Synth Serp just wins.
Fast Vest users: These don't exist. Literally just Jolteon which is aids with a Vest.
Scarf Leaf Storm bulkers: Again, hard to really find, and Serp can even paralyze these on switchin.
Spdef Protect Users: Taunt/Synth. Have you ever played against this set -- Ever?
Moltres: Quad Weak to rocks -- Literally the easiest thing to wear down, especially if it's scarf. If not scarf, it dies to Rocks + Storm + DPulse.
Pressure users: Literally just Entei, because Suicune loses, and all other pressure users suck, or dont exist.
Smite Umbreon: Smite literally isn't a move, I assume you mean Spite, the move that cuts PP, which sounds like literal ass on Umby, and a waste of a slot. And let's not forget about that pesky Taunt.
Heracross: What? No. Scarf Hera is the only set that wins, but Rocks + Storm + HP Fire kills non-scarf variants.
I understand that Serp can't run Taunt/Synth/Storm/HP Fire/Dragon Pulse/HP Ice, but thats just the thing -- Serperior picks between these moves and decide what beats it, and that is why it's broken as all hell. It also gets to choose what playstyles it beats, being able to run sets that dismantle Stall/BulkyOffense/HO.
If you were reading it, I said leaf storm is strong, but the COVERAGE is piss weak.
Edit: I also wanted to point out how "all of its checks are weak to rocks" is not a great argument without double posting. Basically, most teams carry hazard removal and mons have been banned in the future despite being really weak to rocks, even though that was a common way to stop those mons, so it goes both ways in saying if it's checks are weak to rocks, than that really shouldn't be held to much against it in considering its ban.
Last edited:
Roserade doesn't die to leaf storm + hp ice x2 as far as I can tell. Max damage from that is 105.2%, so factor in two black sludge recoveries and it lives. if its life orb then sludge bomb kills.
The argument against Goodra ("it shouldn't be viable as a counter to one of the best mons in the tier") is insane. Like that is quite literally the entire point of a metagame. Usage and viability rise and fall in relation to one another.
Your argument against rotom-H is that it causes a prediction. Predictions are another extremely healthy sign in the metagame, especially when both players have to figure out what the others do. It's what changes the game to be more complicated than Trouble from effin hasbro.
Maero and Mbee are worth noting because they are both able to take a leaf storm.. hell mega bee: +6 252 SpA Meadow Plate Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Beedrill: 211-249 (77.8 - 91.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO haha. bonus points in that he doesn't even have to predict once he's in literally just u-turn.
...i agree with your other reasonings but idk i see this very oddly weak and strange argument a lot in suspect threads. the ability to predict and make plays is something that should be encouraged.. which is why i am always disheartened to see people say that a mon forcing that is a bad sign. it drags the game away from being matchup reliant, idk i just feel the metagame that should be favored is not one where all actions are binary (i.e. "Player B went out to Serperior, I, Player A, will switch to SerperiorCounter, ad naseum) but instead one where reading the opponent can deal with it. Its also why I dislike the "picks and choose who beats it argument" because the set that Serp is running should be deducible from Team preview... If you see that the rest of the team is weak to stall, or has no ice attacks likely, or no fire.. you can pretty much determine what Serp is running. That's a good thing
He said Spdef Rose, so no, Sludge Bomb will never kill.
Am I doing something wrong here?:
0 SpA Roserade Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Serperior: 246-290 (84.5 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
So in the scenario it comes in on the leaf storm, takes the subsequent hp ice then knocks out serp with a sludge bomb..
All of its checks being weak to rocks is most certaintly a valid argument because if you have a crobat on your team...that is your hazard control and the fact that serp pressures crobat a lot forcing it to defog and lose all momentum is broken. Also serp threatens some of the best spinners in the tier being stoise, tenta, and donphan. So the rocks argument is indeed valid. Also its coverage doesnt nessesarily need to be overpowering its there to hit mons super effectively. You arnt going to be spamming your coverage move for neutral damage. Also I dont know why you are talking about the broken mon itself being weak to rocks in the past when we are talking about its checks being weak to rocks...that statement is irrelevant
Last edited:
The more prominent part of the rotom H argument was that its weak to rocks and gets worn down by leaf storm + rocks really easily espessically if its a scarf set. And if it isnt a scarf set it only has one safe switchin before serp can take it out. Same goes to mega bee and aero. I dont know why youd be switching in aero on serp anyways, and beedrill once again worn down. I agree with some of your checks, but you act like they are hard checks..Roserade isnt a hard check due to serp being able to carry hp ice or hp fire. Yes, it can take one but its still soft none the less if it has prior damage on it. The only real viable hard checks I've noticed are goodra, amoongus to an extent, dragalge, and crobat which is also a softish check because it is extremely pressured to defog losing all momentum for your team and if you dont your crobat gets worn down and dies.
I've been messing around with a bulky set using Mirror Coat and a Coba berry. It pairs very well with things that don't like Crobat, Aerodactyl-M, Amoongus and their ilk because it's able to remove them very easily and still comfortably come in again and sweep a weakened/slow team. Given the prevalence of Heal Bell and Healing Wish in UU I've found Glare doesn't always ensure Crobat is out of commission. I used this set with SD Virizion and the offensive synergy between the two is pretty great.
I was mostly talking about past tests in other tiers i.e. moltres and yanmega in ru
If we are going to use the "oh but it gets worn down!" argument then a lot of this looks absolutely silly, because everything gets worn down! That is one of the things I do not like the most about suspect discussions - the player using the pokemon in suspect is oddly presumed to have some godly, ghost like ability to always have his mons in with 100% HP and no hazards on his side of the field and he's never switching into anything. It's bizarre, Serp will be worn down unless the player using it is okay with sacrificing mons on his team.
Of course then, this presumes that the check is viable against other mons in the tier (or in other words, scaring out Serp has a purpose). And there are plenty that do.
So these are the sets I assume are being used, and otherwise you are probably talking theory out of your ass to make the suspect look worse lmao.
Serperior @ Life Orb
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Leaf Storm
- Hidden Power [Rock]/[Ice]
- Dragon Pulse/Synthesis
- Glare
Serperior @ Leftovers
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Substitute
- Taunt
- Leaf Storm
- Hidden Power [Ice]
The other stuff Lacks coverage and gives way too many free turns for team support to even matter.
On that note, I find it hilarious that old teams that were tried and true, stuff like King UU's voltturn team, have absolutely no issue with dealing with the new threat. I refuse to believe a well made balance team will have problems with Serperior. Passive stall will have many things that makes it cry; don't tell me we should ban Reuniclus next just because stall has to actually prepare for it?
I've been trying to keep my saltiness down when posting, but the recent OU and UU suspect tests have been extremely annoying to watch the amount of garbage being thrown around because people are getting badge-happy; these awful posts drown out all of the decent arguments for suspecting a 'mon to the point where I reflexively stop replying to them. What's the point in replying when it's gonna be a mob vote anyways?
Also the quality of the players on this suspect ladder is horrid to the point I'm sure any1 would be able to get reqs lmao.
Serperior @ Life Orb
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Leaf Storm
- Hidden Power [Rock]/[Ice]
- Dragon Pulse/Synthesis
- Glare
Serperior @ Leftovers
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Substitute
- Taunt
- Leaf Storm
- Hidden Power [Ice]
The other stuff Lacks coverage and gives way too many free turns for team support to even matter.
On that note, I find it hilarious that old teams that were tried and true, stuff like King UU's voltturn team, have absolutely no issue with dealing with the new threat. I refuse to believe a well made balance team will have problems with Serperior. Passive stall will have many things that makes it cry; don't tell me we should ban Reuniclus next just because stall has to actually prepare for it?
I've been trying to keep my saltiness down when posting, but the recent OU and UU suspect tests have been extremely annoying to watch the amount of garbage being thrown around because people are getting badge-happy; these awful posts drown out all of the decent arguments for suspecting a 'mon to the point where I reflexively stop replying to them. What's the point in replying when it's gonna be a mob vote anyways?
Also the quality of the players on this suspect ladder is horrid to the point I'm sure any1 would be able to get reqs lmao.
~Volbeatdown~
You are suggesting serperior has 5 moves. If serp has taunt then it doesnt have glare. If serp has glare and taunt then it doesnt have hidden power... ice? If you use ice then forry sets up / kills serp. If no glare crobat wins/ any checks. If glare umbreon wins/ offensive roserade which okos. To be honest, i have never played against taunt serp but im sure its effective but doesnt it loose out on a lot of team synergy if it doesn have glare. I thinnk you are talking a bout leaf storm hp ice glare and taunt... wow that sounds like a perfect sweeper that can touch steel types. If hp fire then n dragon types. If dragon pulse then roserade and amoongus. None of these things have to be a designated counter but you do have to have two of them to work around serp moveset. I would expect glare over taunt.
You cant think as if your opponent has not hazards up and you do plus you have all the moves in your 4 slot moveset you need to get around serperiors coomon checks. Plus all these things forces the serp to predict with glare or leafstorm. Heracross too common for hp ice. Now please tell me what set are you using?
You are suggesting serperior has 5 moves. If serp has taunt then it doesnt have glare. If serp has glare and taunt then it doesnt have hidden power... ice? If you use ice then forry sets up / kills serp. If no glare crobat wins/ any checks. If glare umbreon wins/ offensive roserade which okos. To be honest, i have never played against taunt serp but im sure its effective but doesnt it loose out on a lot of team synergy if it doesn have glare. I thinnk you are talking a bout leaf storm hp ice glare and taunt... wow that sounds like a perfect sweeper that can touch steel types. If hp fire then n dragon types. If dragon pulse then roserade and amoongus. None of these things have to be a designated counter but you do have to have two of them to work around serp moveset. I would expect glare over taunt.
You cant think as if your opponent has not hazards up and you do plus you have all the moves in your 4 slot moveset you need to get around serperiors coomon checks. Plus all these things forces the serp to predict with glare or leafstorm. Heracross too common for hp ice. Now please tell me what set are you using?
I think the point VBD was trying to make, and many have made, is that there are very few counters and serp gets to pick what he loses to, this allows for easy team building on a serp users part. If you use a set that loses to rade/moongus/bat well aero just became a great partner who can destroy serp checks. I understand every team has 6 members so this whole "well this gets worn down and this is beat by serp team mates" is kinda dumb but considering almost all of serps checks are beaten by the same two or three mons (aggron, aero, etc.) coupled with the fact that your serp check is only a check to one particular set means when building against serp it is much more complicated then just putting a check on your team.
Did you even read the end of my post? I said Serp gets to choose what it loses to, I obviously understand that Serp can only run 4 moves, but it chooses its checks and counters. Its much like Greninja, really.
You literally just proved my point for me. Yes, thank for agreeing that serperiors checks get worn down very easily making them very soft checks. Not only does serp wear these mons down with storm itself, but ONCE AGAIN they are all weak to fucking rocks making them extremely easy to wear down. You make it seem like rotom heat is a safe switchin more than once when its not. And what you said about the godly ability to have ur mons at 100% goes the same way for serps checks. They are not always going to be healthy as well, you just contradicted yourself.
- Status