Metagame NP: RU Stage 7: Of Moons, Birds, and Monsters (BOTH SUSPECTS BANNED, DISCUSSING NEW META)

[phantom]

Offense without boosters sounds terrible to begin with (aside from stacking hazards, having something that can take advantage of a free turn is also good), and there's also the option of using a Pursuit user if Cresselia is that big of a problem for your team anyway. I've never seen Cresselia stall out entire teams simply because of how easy it is to drain it of Moonlight PP. Being susceptible to Knock Off doesn't help it much in that regard either.

 

[Nails]

Offense without boosters is generally a bunch of bands and specs and it's a very fun playstyle. :(

 

[x MAD AXES x]

Guess I'm coming back to RU now.

 

[Senpai D.M]

Rip Moltres :[

 

[Cherub Agent]

i don't even think cress is worth a suspect, let alone a ban. Its a good wall, and that's really all it boasts. It used to be a great calm minder before the pangoro ban, as it could outspeed and ko it with moonblast, but now id way prefer using cm reuniclus as a sweeper. Pair this thing with dugtrio and stall teams are in for a hard time. meloetta also gives it stiff competition.

Im aware that the best set is the twave wall set, but all this things ends up doing is sitting there and tanking hits, while honestly not doing that much back in return. Cresselia is extremely vulnerable to all of Trick, knock off , toxic and taunt when it comes to moves, and is beaten by soooo many other mons 1o1. We have the defensive cursers in steelix and registeel, the opposing calm minders in reuniclus and slowking (meloetta either has psyshock and no recovery, or moonlight and no way to damage them) skuntank, houndoom and drapion that just crush it, choice banders that can break it like tyrantrum and emboar, or cripple it like medicham, then countless other stuff like dark pulse clawitzer, taunt toxic stallers with recovery like golbat and jellicent, SD mega abomasnow, doublade and feraligatr, escavalier and sub durant... the list goes on and on lol

 

[Geertos98]

Moltres: No ban
Pangoro: Ban
Cresselia: Ban

 

[Kurona]

Moltres: No ban
Pangoro: Ban
Cresselia: Ban

Suppose you're late to the party
Both burd and panda are banned

 

[Swagodile]

Welp, Virizion rose back up, and we took Steelix and Camerupt from NU as well.

We also received Pinsir from UU.

I'm interested to see if Pinsir can carve out a niche here, or fall into NU.

 

[Senpai D.M]

Going to hype this gem, what is gatr?

 

[Moon]

Going to hype this gem, what is gatr?

+1 252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Articuno: 207-243 (54 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Articuno Freeze-Dry vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Feraligatr: 168-200 (54 - 64.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Edit: Point is, you cant switch this in on a DD even without rocks.

 

[Senpai D.M]

Obvs have to play bird good and add pressure on gatr only threat I see rising can be rhyp

 

[tehy]

Didn't I play you yesterday with a team that had Articuno and no way to remove Stealth Rock?

Though I will attest to the scariness of SubRoost Articuno. If i wasn't so amazing, I might've actually lost to it due to it walling my entire team and hitting most of it super effectively (after Mlix was so cruelly robbed of life by Exploud lead). If this were the viability rankings, i'd nom it up a notch.

 

[azureleaf17]

Hey guys, just wanted to post here so i can give you all a sneak peak at the outcome of the votes :).

As of now, there are only a few votes left to be submitted, and both Pangoro and Moltres will be banned.

Both Pokemon got banned by a supermajority again (although as of now it only takes a simple majority for a Pokemon to be banned), but i'd like to note that Moltres is by *FAR* the closest suspect test vote we've had since the start of XY, only just barely hitting the supermajority mark, and if any more do not ban votes come in before the vote is officially closed, it has a shot at becoming the first Pokemon to be banned in gen 6 RU by a simple majority and not a supermajority.

For the record, i'm going to be officially revealing the votecounts/closing the suspect test tommorow, until then, feel free to talk about what you think the meta will be like without these two :]

Moltres:
Ban: 55
Do Not Ban: 29
Percentage: 65.47% Moltres is banned from RU by a simple majority, and is therefore the first Pokemon in Gen 6 RU not to reach a supermajority vote o.o

I feel like the last few people who voted went with "Do Not Ban" even if they felt otherwise, because the verdict was already in and they just wanted to see it become the first 'mon to be banned without a supermajority x)

 

[barton]

your new god:

(◕‿◕✿) (Jumpluff)
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Sleep Powder
- Swords Dance
- Acrobatics
- Seed Bomb

i've been using jumpluff recently to surprisingly good results. it can actually do some solid damage: it has the typing to take advantage of the plethora of grass & fighting types in the tier, and sleep powder provides it with ample opportunities to set up. it also has a really good speed tier, being outsped by 4(?) relevant mons: whimsicott, dugtrio, jolteon, and accelgor. it also gets infiltrator, which is cool. plus, it's funny when people leave hitmonlee in on it because nobody knows what the fuck it does.
honestly, it's a shame it's walled by the various steels in the tier, particularly steelix and doublade. despite that, it's a good gimmick which can actually work.

 

[g]

your new god:

(◕‿◕✿) (Jumpluff)
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Sleep Powder
- Swords Dance
- Acrobatics
- Seed Bomb

i've been using jumpluff recently to surprisingly good results. it can actually do some solid damage: it has the typing to take advantage of the plethora of grass & fighting types in the tier, and sleep powder provides it with ample opportunities to set up. it also has a really good speed tier, being outsped by 4(?) relevant mons: whimsicott, dugtrio, jolteon, and accelgor. it also gets infiltrator, which is cool. plus, it's funny when people leave hitmonlee in on it because nobody knows what the fuck it does.
honestly, it's a shame it's walled by the various steels in the tier, particularly steelix and doublade. despite that, it's a good gimmick which can actually work.

Credit me and use Memento over Seed Bomb + Slurpuff (◕‿◕✿)

 

[skies]

At first, I was on board with suspecting, and even banning Cresselia, but I really don't think that's a wise idea any more. As Cherub Agent said, it faces much more competition now because it had a great niche in outspeeding Pangoro and smacking it with Moonblast. Cresselia's a sitting goose before it sets up, and that leaves it much more prone to being set up on in return or being overwhelmed. It's really just bulky, is all. That's not to say Cresselia's not an excellent Pokemon anymore, because that's entirely false, but the Calm Mind set just feels underwhelming. One big point I think that overturned CM Cresselia was Feraligatr, which uses it as set up bait. Feraligatr is just so powerful right now! Boosted Waterfall hurts like hell, and I've been having trouble finding a 100% counter to it. It has some way or another to circumvent usual checks, and it's been very impressive so far. What've you guys been running to stop it lately?

 

[blinkie]

Also IMO Mega Steelix is a threat that has only gotten better since stuff like Moltres got banned. It can phaze Cresselia with Roar as unfixable mentioned, while it also takes any physical hit easily. However, with Gatr being everywhere, its not really the catch-all physical wall it could be. Tbh Gatr deserves a suspect, and if it gets banned, Mega Steelix also should be. It basically just lols at stuff like Doublade, Scyther, and Archeops. Not to mention how the Curse set can actually sweep teams...
It also got a lot better with the Pangoro ban, as Pangoro could threaten Mega Steelix on defensive teams, but its no longer the case as Panda got banned, and stall on the whole got buffed hard.

IDK about stops to Gatr, the best one I can think of off the top of my head is Ferroseed, but although it is a good stop to DD, SD is also a very viable set, and it will be taking ~50% from +2 Crunch so its not that reliable either. However, it is good that it is now easier to stop with status, as it does not run Lum Berry but rather Life Orb. Not to mention how you don't fit stuff like Mola on offense, so DD can run through a offensive teams.

 

[lighthouses]

Just to add that poliwrath is the only viable-ish pokemon that can check/counter the doom+gatr combination n_n

 

[Cowtao]

Mistress Remilia mentioned Poliwrath in the viability thread and has been getting a lot of attention because of it's ability to wall most of Gatr's physical moveset (Aqua Jet, Crunch, Ice Punch, Waterfall)

Other then that, it's more or less a multitude of checks or pokemon that can status it and stall it out or revenge kill it with Priority.

 

[Ares]

IDK about stops to Gatr, the best one I can think of off the top of my head is Ferroseed, but although it is a good stop to DD, SD is also a very viable set, and it will be taking ~50% from +2 Crunch so its not that reliable either. However, it is good that it is now easier to stop with status, as it does not run Lum Berry but rather Life Orb. Not to mention how you don't fit stuff like Mola on offense, so DD can run through a offensive teams.

Just saying that Qwilfish is quite a good one, seeing as Gatr can't really afford the slot for Substitute or for Earthquake (Crunch hits harder + more targets). It can come in and Thunder Wave Feraligatr making it a lot easier to deal with as well as Taunt it to prevent it from setting up further than +1 Atk +2 Spe. It takes about 38%ish from Crunch and can run Poison Jab if it needs to too damage gatr.

Tangrowth is an alright hard check cause Ice Punch doesn't KO at +1, but Giga Drain with 0 investment doesn't KO either. So you'll cripple Gatr but die yourself.

As stated above there is actually quite a lot of checks to Feraligatr, any scarfer that is faster as well as encore and other things.

 

[Gary]

To be honest, if you think CM Cress is the reason Cresselia should be suspected, then you definitely need to rethink your team building or something. CM Cress is so fucking passive before it sets up, and there's so many things that can take advantage of it before it sets up, such as Sub SD Cobalion, Doublade, Gator, Mega Steelix, Mega Aboma (if it's the non HP Fire variants), Durant, CM Melo, CM Reuniclus, Escav, Drapion, Mega Banette, etc etc.

The one set that makes Cresselia suspect worthy is its support set with T-wave. Holy fucking shit is that thing annoying. Not only does it never die in one hit, but its insane bulk lets it basically switch into any unboosted neutral hit. Although Cress is still weak and can't hit for shit, T-wave makes it a huge threat against offensive teams and significantly patches up its passiveness against most teams. All it has to do is spam this move throughout the match in order to cripple everything, then proceed to bring something in like CB Tyrantrum or SD Gator later on in the match to completely mop the floor with the opposing team. Lunar Dance is also an amazing move which allows you to play very aggressively early on in the match without having to worry about losing your win coin, seeing as how you can just heal them up later in the match, and because Cress is so damn bulky, it will have a LOT of opportunities to safely use the move.

Now personally I don't think Cress is broken at all. Even though its defensive set is very annoying it's still complete Taunt bait, and there's lot of Sub sweepers out there that can still set up all over it. The CM set is still decent, but like many have said, it's not nearly as useful over other good CMers in the tier because it lost its niche in beating Panda.

Gator is another story. Qwil is not a reliable answer to all Gator sets because Sub SD sets (which aren't uncommon) can set up all over it. Tangrowth has to be heavily invested in defense, or else it risks dying to a +1 LO Ice Punch after SR (which sucks because offensive Growth is by far its best set). Same shit applies to Amoonguss. Wrath is one of the only reliable counters to Gator, and while it does have uses outside of checking Gator, it's not the best mon in the world. Gator has plenty of checks before it sets up, but its Water-typing is great defensively and it has nice bulk, which allows it to take most non super effective hits pretty easily.

As stated above there is actually quite a lot of checks to Feraligatr, any scarfer that is faster as well as encore and other things.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "any Scarfer", because quite the contrary, most common Choice Scarf users fail to revenge kill Gator. Durant and Hitmonlee both fail to even come close to OHKOing it and a +1 Waterfall cleanly OHKOs them back Delphox can't OHKO it with Grass Knot. Scarf Tyrantrum can live a Waterfall, but fails to OHKO with Head Smash. That's unfortunate. So what are we left with?

Rotom-C. Yeah.....any scarfer is definitely a heavy overstatement lol. So all in all, the only reliable way to beat DD Gator is to kill it before it sets up, otherwise offensive teams are going to have one hell of a time trying to beat Gator, just like how bulkier teams really hate SD Gator (although offensive teams also dislike SD Aqua Jet Gator so there's that too).

 

[phantom]

Substitute on Feraligatr isn't a bad option at all and in fact, it usually can afford to run it. SubSD sets run Substitute for the sole purpose of beating Alomomola on stall and can generally get past more passive resists such as Qwilfish through brute force. I've also been toying around with SubDD sets by replacing Ice Punch with Substitute and it gets by pretty well while also screwing over would-be defensive checks such as Twave Cresselia, among other threats. Dark + Water coverage isn't bad at all and can usually cleave through a significant portion of the meta much like Sharpedo used to. I do think Feraligatr is a bit of a problem though because outside of niche defensive mons that literally no one was using prior to SF being released, there are very few reliable counter-measures that don't include revenge killing. I think the biggest boon that SF gives is that Feraligatr needs no boosts whatsoever to pose as an offensive threat, so many offensive checks such as Whimsicott are usually wary of switching in at first due to the possibility of taking an Ice Punch to the face. Feraligatr needs to go...

I'm not going to comment much on Cresselia, but I agree with the above that Twave+Lunar Dance is the best set atm.

This match I've had with Pearl the other day (http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ru-38423) showcases how incredibly easy it is for it to spread paralysis, to the point where a Pokemon with 20 something Speed is given the chance to sweep. Although the match is a bit haxy, you can get the idea here. I'm still unsure about Cresselia, but I am somewhat convinced that it may need a suspect.

 

[Guidorealmsmc]

Welp, Virizion rose back up, and we took Steelix and Camerupt from NU as well.

We also received Pinsir from UU.

I'm interested to see if Pinsir can carve out a niche here, or fall into NU.

That was a mistake camerupt didn't move up qwilfish did. Pinsir has a niche on double bug cores with durant in which SD pinsir breaks walls and Hone claws Durant cleans later on. On the verdict of Gatr I agree it should get tested. Sheer force + life orb boosted moves hurt so much of the tier it isn't even funny and alot of gatr's checks are rather passive. Not only that immunity to life orb recoil makes it even harder to revenge kill as it's solid bulk allows it to tank many priority moves. Plus it alone puts so much pressure on a ton of teams as it is who ever sets up their gatr wins.

 

[Scienceandreligion]

I'm finding the main niche of Pinsir not to be it's Swords Dance set but rather a Choice Scarf Moxie set. RU lacks moxie sweepers, which automatically gives Pinsir a niche. Plus, the movepool is actually slightly better than I anticipated for Pinsir, as Close Combat and Earthquake alongside the bug STAB actually hit quite a bit of the tier. I certainly wouldn't call it the premier Pokemon of the tier by any means, but against offensive teams Moxie Pinsir can be surprisingly effective lategame. At least it offers more than a suboptimal alternative to Durant / other SD pokemon with the only prominent niche being muscling through Quagsire.

 

[atomicllamas]

Yo, just dropping by to announce that council took a vote and the result is that Feraligatr has been quickbanned from RU.

List of Votes

atomicllamas - ban
Afro Smash - ban
New Breed - ban
Omfuga - ban
Spirit - ban
EonX - ban
Molk - ban
-Tsunami- - ban
Hot N Cold - didn't vote

We will follow up with the reasoning and all that jazz no later than tomorrow night, but there didn't seem like a point in making you wait. Also want to get this in before SPL week 9 is put up.

Reasoning

Gaining Sheer Force gave Feraligatr three crucial boons that resulted in its ban: the ability to hit tremendously hard straight off the bat, have the capability to run Dragon Dance and even Specially Based-attacker sets to limit its pool of checks, and accentuate the power of its already fearsome Swords Dance sets. Between its above average bulk and pure Water typing, Feraligatr found many opportunities to set up all the while being incredibly difficult to revenge kill once it got going. This significant increase in power made Feraligatr very difficult to check and nearly impossible to counter outside of a select few defensive Pokemon, especially when it employs the use of Substitute, and outside of Choice Scarf Rotom-C, very few if any Choice Scarf users have the capability to revenge kill it. In the end, the addition of Sheer Force made Feraligatr, an already good RU Pokemon, too powerful and versatile for the RU metagame to handle.

Thanks to user: Spirit for writing this up.