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Hidden Type
- Thread starter The Immortal
- Start date
You'd be surprised by how lacklustre Ghost Chansey is, mainly due to how predictable it is.
I'm trying to get into the Hidden type meta game and it's pretty hard too as U don't really know what to expect and what's common. It would be great if you guys would have a sample team that could be used for getting into the meta game. I know it would help me a lot and probably a lot of other people too. Thank you
I think viability ranking is being brought up. Meanwhile, you can watch some replays from the recent tournament (Which not only gives you an idea of the viable mons in the tier, but on how to play the meta as a whole):
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/hidden-type-mini-tour-won-by-pikachuun.3527907/
Tagging Jack Dalton to make some decisions for the Pokemon discussed
I haven't played much but from the games I've played so far, you need to anticipate these things.
1. Pokes that need their weaknesses covered (Steel Dragonite, Water Gliscor, Ghost Bisharp, Flying Heatran, Dark Weezing, etc.)
2. Pokes that need STAB on their coverage (Grass Manaphy, Ground Gyarados, Ghost Porygon-Z, etc.)
3. Basically common OU pokes with added typing
This is true, however:
1. Chansey can't remain normal type or go for Fairy/Normal which would arguably be the best two choices for it.
2. Chansey has nothing better to add than Ghost within the types available for it to use, since every other type adds irritating weaknesses. (Poison for example doesn't enjoy being weak to EQ or Psyshock at all, since this severely reduces its walling capabilities)
The pursuit and knock off weaknesses suck, but every other typing Chansey can use gives it weaknesses that hinder its ability to stand out as a strong, neutral wall. Hence for stall teams that use Chansey (AKA 90% of stall teams), Ghost is the best choice.
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I'm voting blaziken (Flying) for A rank (If the normal OU rules don't apply).
With A massive attack and speed stat as well as access to speed boost making it an offensive monster thinks to adamant and speed wise, a demon, the only thing that could make it better would be a massive move-pool. And it has just that. Flare blitz is good in its own right but it can only hit so much. Brave bird as a STAB would completely destroy new threats. We now have a Pokemon with 3 powerful STAB moves, speed boost, life orb (optional) and coverage. NOW i see why blaziken was banned to ubers.
But if you think that Ubers should stay to ubers, May i present to you...
Thundurus (steel) For A rank!
After doing research, i found this thing only has one weakness, Fire. And whilst Thundy may not have anything to counter fire, it certainly isn't too much of a problem when you realize how much this thing either resists or avoids all together. It can now switch in at any time into most if not all Pokemon and get that prankster thunder wave before releasing its horrible special attack stat upon them through thunderbolt and focus blast with an array of alternatives to hidden power ice. i will be using taunt for my set so they cannot set up neither defog anything. This is truly a god among men.
So, I hope you liked my long explanation! I'd love to see these two get put up there
With A massive attack and speed stat as well as access to speed boost making it an offensive monster thinks to adamant and speed wise, a demon, the only thing that could make it better would be a massive move-pool. And it has just that. Flare blitz is good in its own right but it can only hit so much. Brave bird as a STAB would completely destroy new threats. We now have a Pokemon with 3 powerful STAB moves, speed boost, life orb (optional) and coverage. NOW i see why blaziken was banned to ubers.
But if you think that Ubers should stay to ubers, May i present to you...
Thundurus (steel) For A rank!
After doing research, i found this thing only has one weakness, Fire. And whilst Thundy may not have anything to counter fire, it certainly isn't too much of a problem when you realize how much this thing either resists or avoids all together. It can now switch in at any time into most if not all Pokemon and get that prankster thunder wave before releasing its horrible special attack stat upon them through thunderbolt and focus blast with an array of alternatives to hidden power ice. i will be using taunt for my set so they cannot set up neither defog anything. This is truly a god among men.
So, I hope you liked my long explanation! I'd love to see these two get put up there
Chansey does get counter. You can run Flying with Defensive investment to catch Fighting Types off guard. Be careful not to reveal your type by switching into SR.
Flying Chansey is a far less reliable wall than Ghost Chansey, though. You gain weaknesses to Electric, Rock, and Ice alongside becoming neutral to fighting just to evade a weakness to dark and catch fighting types off guard (Which, by the way, would not work, since as you said everybody expects Ghost so clever opponents won't be using Fighting moves anytime soon). You might gain resistances to Bug and Grass, but Ghost already tanks both of those already since grass attacks are almost purely special.
Chansey is better off being neutral to everything than having a few weaknesses - even if the typing with the weaknesses adds a ton of resistances, because that way the opponent will have to break down Chansey through its titanic defensive stats instead of exploiting the weaknesses it has. It is unlike other walls like Skarmory which have sub-par stats but abuse a strong defensive typing in this way. By adding weaknesses from a secondary typing, instead of having to break through Chansey's raw bulk, the opponent will simply be able to use one of the many super effective moves he/she has throughout his/her team to take it out. This is why Ghost is the best available typing, as it adds as few weaknesses as possible.
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And still Tornadus-Therian Steel is a better wall...Thundurus Steel has pretty bad defenses and it certainly shouldnt be A rank. To me maybe C+/B- rank as it does have Prankster Thunder Wave and Defiant, but I don't see that being more useful that things like Tornadus-Therian and for a lesser extent, even Zapdos could be a better wall. It's got a useful niche in Thunder Wave priority, but are they really that good to be A rank?
Well now that Ghost Chansey is immune to Fighting, why not add something like Dark (no one is gonna hit you with a Fighting move until they know anyway).
I'm somewhat puzzled as to why you only calculate base hits, since a big part of what makes Pinsir so scary is its access to Swords Dance. It's pretty alarming than it can OHKO everything in there except Multiscale Steel Dragonite after just one Swords Dance. It's also a lot easier to get it switched in than in Standard, due to its typing, and the commonality of relatively passive walls to switch in on. I'd think it would rate at least a B+ with that kind of firepower, good Speed, etc. Scares me more than Steel or Fire Mega Altaria, to be honest.Fighting Pinsir (Mega) -> B
Once on a roll, Fighting Pinsir can be deadly. Close Combat is a very powerful other STAB that can beat pokemon that resist flying (rock, steel). It is walled by a very common threat nowadays, Flying Heatran, and then OHKO.
Aganist Flying Heatran - 252 Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 213-252 (55.1 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Aganist Steel/Fire Altaria - 252 Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria: 207-244 (70.8 - 83.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
However, it can dispatch Steel Dragonite and the aforementioned Water Gliscor pretty well as it has decent bulk (65/120/90 is OK).
Aganist Steel Dragonite - 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 129-153 (33.4 - 39.6%) -- 17.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Aganist Water Gliscor - 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gliscor: 204-241 (57.6 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
It deserves B at the least but I dont see how it can be super good.
"Hi my name is Talonflame. How can I help you?"
"Roast Pinsir please"
"That's $49.95"
2 minutes later...
^^^^^^^^^
Incoming!!!!!
Calc to prove even though I think we all know Talonflame will kill...
252+ Atk Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Pinsir: 270-318 (99.6 - 117.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
It has 271 HP...(270, 272, 276, 278, 282, 284, 288, 290, 294, 296, 300, 302, 306, 308, 312, 318)
(270, 272, 276, 278, 282, 284, 288)
(270, 272, 276)
270/271 say wot m8
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 655-772 (220.5 - 259.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
OK I guess B+ works.
Actually, Fighting type Mega Pinsir is OHKOed by Talonflame. Ground results in the calc you just described and is pretty solid, and though it's less viable (And still has to fear faster versions using Flare Blitz) Steel reliably survives Talonflame's Brave Bird. It wouldn't surprise me if other possibilities are viable too -Rock would provide STAB on Stone Edge and protect against both of Talonflame's STABs, for instance, and would let it OHKO even Bulk Up Steel Talonflame.
Flying is the "overall better" one (Even with Manaphy running around), but Grass is an excellent choice just to punish the assumption that it's Flying -Thunderbolt? Meh. The Water resistance is a nice little bonus, but honestly isn't the main appeal.
I think that it is fair to put Clefable to A+.
Due to its amazing Ability in Unaware, Clefable is one of the exceedingly few checks to the many Dragon Dance sweepers in this meta game, and in many cases the most reliable. With the addition of Water type Clefable is able to wall Grass Manaphy, Steel Dragonite, Ground (Mega)Gyarados, Dark Mega Charizard X, Mega Tyranitar, Mega Altaria and even the premier wall breaker SD Fighting Crawdaunt. Water Type Clefable is almost a staple on stall and extremely handy on Balance to stop these threats from sweeping and help wear them down. Clefable also has an outstanding support move pool with reliable recovery, wish, heal bell, SR and thunder wave. You can even go for a CM set with Flamethrower or Stored Power.
I've actually seen CM LO Magic Guard Clefable with Fire typing for the secondary STAB. Not nearly as valuable as Unaware Clef but still retains solid bulk and gains some respectable offensive presence. Not to mention it is nice to have a fire type immune to SR damage.
With these traits together I think it is easily fair that Clefable is deserving of A+.
Also I think Quagsire should be at least A-.
It isn't quite as well rounded as Clefable but it does have superior Physical Bulk and retains a really nice typing, even without a third typing. Quagsire is still extremely useful to have to stop the many physical set up sweepers and also has access to Scald and SR. The biggest things holding Quagsire back from Clefable's level are its poor special bulk, lack of offensive presence and vulnerability to Grass Manaphy regardless of what type you add.
Due to its amazing Ability in Unaware, Clefable is one of the exceedingly few checks to the many Dragon Dance sweepers in this meta game, and in many cases the most reliable. With the addition of Water type Clefable is able to wall Grass Manaphy, Steel Dragonite, Ground (Mega)Gyarados, Dark Mega Charizard X, Mega Tyranitar, Mega Altaria and even the premier wall breaker SD Fighting Crawdaunt. Water Type Clefable is almost a staple on stall and extremely handy on Balance to stop these threats from sweeping and help wear them down. Clefable also has an outstanding support move pool with reliable recovery, wish, heal bell, SR and thunder wave. You can even go for a CM set with Flamethrower or Stored Power.
I've actually seen CM LO Magic Guard Clefable with Fire typing for the secondary STAB. Not nearly as valuable as Unaware Clef but still retains solid bulk and gains some respectable offensive presence. Not to mention it is nice to have a fire type immune to SR damage.
With these traits together I think it is easily fair that Clefable is deserving of A+.
Also I think Quagsire should be at least A-.
It isn't quite as well rounded as Clefable but it does have superior Physical Bulk and retains a really nice typing, even without a third typing. Quagsire is still extremely useful to have to stop the many physical set up sweepers and also has access to Scald and SR. The biggest things holding Quagsire back from Clefable's level are its poor special bulk, lack of offensive presence and vulnerability to Grass Manaphy regardless of what type you add.
252 SpA Manaphy Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 188-224 (47.7 - 56.8%) -- 38.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Water Clefable most certainly does not wall grass manaphy.
Probably nothing to do with tier list, but I am kinda surprised on how much wins I got using this.
Feraligatr @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Waterfall
- Crunch
- Ice Punch
Water/Dark type, so no need IV modification.
People need to prepare for this thing. This is basically a bulkier, faster Crawdaunt with powered up Ice Punch, though with less power. Ice STAB can be useful too since it only has 5 base power less than Crunch, though Ice typing isn't good, but Water/Dark is good enough to hit many things neutral.
Power wise, its kinda same as Mega Altaria.
252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 277-328 (43.1 - 51%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO
Crunch do the same amount.
252+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 280-331 (43.6 - 51.5%) -- 9.4% chance to 2HKO
So basically this is a Mega Altaria with less bulk but Water Dark coverage instead of just Fairy.
Feraligatr @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Waterfall
- Crunch
- Ice Punch
Water/Dark type, so no need IV modification.
People need to prepare for this thing. This is basically a bulkier, faster Crawdaunt with powered up Ice Punch, though with less power. Ice STAB can be useful too since it only has 5 base power less than Crunch, though Ice typing isn't good, but Water/Dark is good enough to hit many things neutral.
Power wise, its kinda same as Mega Altaria.
252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 277-328 (43.1 - 51%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO
Crunch do the same amount.
252+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 280-331 (43.6 - 51.5%) -- 9.4% chance to 2HKO
So basically this is a Mega Altaria with less bulk but Water Dark coverage instead of just Fairy.
I'm tired of this argument in a lot of tiers. Just because something's weak to priority doesn't mean it's bad. It is certainly kept in check, but nothing is stopping it from sweeping."Hi my name is Talonflame. How can I help you?"
"Roast Pinsir please"
"That's $49.95"
2 minutes later...
^^^^^^^^^
Incoming!!!!!
Calc to prove even though I think we all know Talonflame will kill...
252+ Atk Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Pinsir: 270-318 (99.6 - 117.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
It has 271 HP...(270, 272, 276, 278, 282, 284, 288, 290, 294, 296, 300, 302, 306, 308, 312, 318)
(270, 272, 276, 278, 282, 284, 288)
(270, 272, 276)
270/271 say wot m8
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 655-772 (220.5 - 259.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
OK I guess B+ works.
You're sure as hell not switching into Mega Pinsir. You're rather switching in your wall, who gets shit on after +2. And once you switch Talonflame in, they'll switch to their own wall. Even with Ground, Talonflame cannot afford a lot of switches after SR.
Something else to be noted is that Talonflames don't run that much Speed. Pinsir runs full Speed and hence can KO a ~50% Talonflame with +2 Aerilate Quick Attack.
Fighting Mega Pinsir is extremely viable. Only things like Skarmory and Ghost Mega Aggron wall it effectively.
Oops, I forgot to add water in that calc. That said though, However Water Clefable is what I use, Clefable is not limited to Water as Steel is also quite strong and can check Manaphy.
Oh haha it's 4* weak to Flying not 2 Q_Q It is very viable, but I'm just making a point...also 208 speed on Talonflame outspeeds max speed Pinsir so yea.
Pinsir (Fighting) uses Close COmbat!
252 Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Clefable: 216-255 (54.8 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Clefable (Steel) uses Moonblast!
0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. -1 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Pinsir: 320-380 (118 - 140.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Pinsir fainted! (I use steel Talonflame, not Ground. Stab Steel Wing is always good :D).
It can't wall Grass Manaphy, I don't think anyone uses Mega Ground Gyarados (pretty sure it's regular). And it doesn't *wall* all the setup sweepers like Pinsir -
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Clefable: 262-310 (66.4 - 78.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery. I'd think steel is better off with Clefable, but it is deserving of at least A.
What can Quaggy really do to all the wallbreakers? Set a haze? That's just about it...
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 234-278 (59.3 - 70.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Great man now your 2HKOed without even a boost :/
Quagsire should be meh...B imo.
EDIT: Can you make some changes Jack Dalton?
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OLD GREGG (im back baby)
old gregg for life
I've been trying out HP Grass Chandelure and it's not bad, trading off two weaknesses(ground and water) for one(flying) and gaining stab on grass ball. Not exactly ground breaking but pretty cool since Chandy's typing cancels out the other four weaknesses of grass mons. Leaving Chandy weak to flying, rock, ghost, and dark.
Energy Ball Chandelure, I guess can be OK, but I think Grass Ninetales > Grass Chandelure. And if I were going for a less weakness Chandelure, I would use Dark Chandelure with Dark Pulse to get three weaknesses (all from Fire which is Rock, Water, and Ground).
OLD GREGG (im back baby)
old gregg for life
Anyone find a reliable Steel Dnite counter yet?