Unpopular opinions

[Codraroll]

Well, let's just try to count how many "Easy Modes" there are in XY and ORAS already...

1. Exp. Share. The obvious one. Much has been said about it already. Even if you're too young to understand how the mechanics of party rotating works, this little item will help give your entire team Experience. Not only that, you'll quickly rake up those 512 EVs on all Pokémon too, which even when distributed randomly still yields a rather nice stat boost compared to a Pokémon trained without the Exp. Share.
2. Lucky Egg. Requires a little more insight to use, but will help boost the growth of the Pokémon you're giving it to by a whooping fifty percent.
3. Free Megas. Lucario+Kanto Starters/Hoenn Starters+Lati@s (not a mathematical expression, by the way) are given to you without you putting in any effort at all. Once Mega Evolved, these things can hammer their way through most of the battles in the game, even when at a type/level disadvantage, and win nearly every single time. Press that big, glowy, blinking button, and all your worries will be history.
4. The rest of the Megas. Same story, but require a little more effort to acquire. Either way, most of them are strong enough to nullify most resistance you ever come across.
5. Mandatory-capture Legendaries. Lati@s in ORAS, Xerneas/Yveltal in XY. Okay, you have to catch the latter two, but on the other hand, you have to catch them. You literally can't miss out on the capture of an Ubermon. You're even urged to put it directly in your party right before that big fight you're about to enter.
6. Pokémon-Amie. A fully Amie'd Pokémon has the equivalent of Lucky Egg, Brightpowder, Shed Skin, Focus Band AND Scope Lens (some of them with much higher chance of success), while also being able to hold an item and have an ability like normal. Combine this with Megas or the aforementioned free Ubermons to get ultimate brokenness.
7. Battle style "Shift". A free switch in any Trainer battle, helpfully pointing out to you what Pokémon you're going to face.

That's a lot of features to make the game easier that are literally thrown in your face as you go through the story. Many of them you have to make an effort not to put to immediate use once available to you. And the game still isn't that hard without them. If you want to make it a challenge, you have to restrict yourself even further. I wouldn't mind having all those "Easy Modes" if the base game was hard enough to warrant them. That way, you could have a game challenging enough for experienced players without making it too hard for newbies, because those who need the "Easy Modes" probably won't figure out how to disable them anyway.

Or yet better, just implement that Hard mode again, but put the option at the start of the game and not at the end. The way it is now, we're given an easy game with lots of options for making it even easier, and you need some purposely contrived self-restrictions if you want it to be harder - even though very many fans do.

As for an opinion that's unpopular - I figure all the above is sounding rather familiar to anybody who've ever reflected on the base difficulty of a Pokémon game, especially in the past couple of generations - I think the "difficulty question" is a bit of a symptom. The fandom is slowly losing interest in the in-game aspect of the games. Just like there seems to be a surprising consensus that the Anime is crap, more and more often do I see people agreeing that the "beat eight gyms, defeat villainous team, beat elite four" formula is starting to wear. The Pokémon games become less about the journey and more about what you can do afterwards. Luckily GameFreak seems to acknowledge the popularity of postgame stuff - how good IVs became radically easier to get this generation is proof enough of that. I'm not sure what this will imply about the fans' relation to the franchise in the long run. Pokémon has been surfing on a very large, active and vocal fanbase for a LOT of free marketing over the past decade - we make way more buzz about their product than any marketing department could ever hope to achieve, and if this fan base starts to determine that certain aspects of the games are becoming dated, that notion will quickly reach a very large part of the consumer base (as the two bases have a very large overlap).

GameFreak is walking a very narrow path with the Pokémon games. Change too little, and the games will grow stale (or be perceived to grow stale, if you like). Change too much, and the fans go bananas en masse. Some people will always be angry about any small change, but they're usually drowned out by the large majority thinking the change is just fine. But if any sort of consensus develops stating that things are going badly, then... well, I don't know. I made the sustainability thread to discuss what will happen when Pokémon eventually reaches a critical mass, and how it will happen. I think they'll be fine in the short run, but in the long run... no idea.

 

[jordanthejq12]

Curiously, sometimes solo runs, a challenge mode, can be easier still. Try it with Mudkip, which can obliterate anything with EQ/Waterfall/Ice Punch Beam while tanking hits from all but a solid Grass shot--and who cares when you have level advantage?

EDIT: Wrong Ice move. Granted, the above coverage isn't accessible until late game, but when you do get those moves, have fun blowing through the E4.

 

[Kurona]

Curiously, sometimes solo runs, a challenge mode, can be easier still. Try it with Mudkip, which can obliterate anything with EQ/Waterfall/Ice Punch while tanking hits from all but a solid Grass shot--and who cares when you have level advantage?

But Ice Punch is only aftergame move tutor and the other two moves are late-game???

 

[WideTomato]

I think the "passive Pokemon and teammembers" would hurt more than it would benefit the franchise overall.

"Pokemon" Pokemon have always kept true to the 6 Pokemon per party, 4 moves per Pokemon in all of its main series games even the anime have stayed true to this. Having more Pokemon and moves would ruin a lot of what they have build up, and while a fresh spin might be nice, I don't see this as the right way of doing so. Also, why should you be able to travel with passive Pokemon, it kind of ruins the friendship illusion.

"Strategy wise" having freedom to select between moves would make the game significantly easier because you can have passive moves saved for a particular tough trainer battle, it pretty much ruins the the thinking process behind choosing moves and teammates when you can slap another two "just in case" monsters/moves on your team. Cut for instance is a very little usable move in battle, however it gives you access to great tools throughout your journey such as various plates and leftovers. As of now, it is up to theplayer to chose wether or not he/she value that higher than having a more viable move battle vise on his/her team.

I actually really like how BW2 let you go through the majority of the game without HMs, and I think they should aim to do that in the future, rather than leaving them out completely.

 

[jordanthejq12]

I like the idea of having, say, six or eight moves, pick four. The "inactive" moves could be the less useful HMs such as Cut, plus it would make Dig and Teleport (before you can Fly, anyway) very useful. Alternatively, you could keep different coverage moves in the inactive slots and adapt a poke at will to a variety of situations.

 

[KingHeracrossTheBug]

I like the idea of having, say, six or eight moves, pick four. The "inactive" moves could be the less useful HMs such as Cut, plus it would make Dig and Teleport (before you can Fly, anyway) very useful. Alternatively, you could keep different coverage moves in the inactive slots and adapt a poke at will to a variety of situations.

No thanks, we don't want the game being easier.

Besides that, I just confirmed that I'm the only one that liked Gen 4 games, particularly Pt, as DP were both slower than a Shuckle (dat tweaking glitch tho ;) )

I admit messing with the void was fun till my pearl stopped working XD.

BSoD Testing plz

 

[Norne]

No thanks, we don't want the game being easier.

Besides that, I just confirmed that I'm the only one that liked Gen 4 games, particularly Pt, as DP were both slower than a Shuckle (dat tweaking glitch tho ;) )

I admit messing with the void was fun till my pearl stopped working XD.

 

[Phione]

Well, the reason why HMs are not delete able is because you could be stuck in places had you traded over an pokemon that had the HM without having the actual item, and the deleted the move in a place that you can't return from without it. This is potential in all main series games. IIRC you can actually be stuck in DPPt because there is a NPC trade that require a pokemon able to learn surf, that requires surf to get to.

Yes but you could still just trade away the mon that knew the HM instead of deleting it, and bring with you another mon that can't learn said HM. You can still get yourself stuck, though once you get the Eon Flute in ORAS this ceases to be a possibility.

 

[Mulan15262]

Well, the reason why HMs are not delete able is because you could be stuck in places had you traded over an pokemon that had the HM without having the actual item, and the deleted the move in a place that you can't return from without it. This is potential in all main series games. IIRC you can actually be stuck in DPPt because there is a NPC trade that require a pokemon able to learn surf, that requires surf to get to.

You could split the region into areas by sections blocked off by each HM, and make sure that each area has a source of wild pokemon that learn the HM that is available from as soon as you get there. For example, in Unova there would be a source of surf-learning pokemon on the land of route 18, and a source of cut-learning pokemon in the Dreamyard.

 

[Pikachu315111]

Codraroll :
More Money: And let's not forget about my favorite item, the Amulet Coin, which made sure you never ran out of money to buy Potions, Repels, Poke Balls, and whatnot. ;)
Shifting In: Though I never understood why you were told in "Shift" what Pokemon your opponent was sending out next. What, your opponent tells you the Pokemon they're sending out and lets you switch out and not taking the free turn to use a move? I mean I'm okay with the idea of shifting the Pokemon after you knock out your opponent's, like if the Pokemon is weak an you want to send a fresh one in or you want to spread out the experience without your opponent getting in a free move, however I don't think you should be told what their next Pokemon is. It'll still be easy, don't get me wrong, you're able to send in a fresh Pokemon for free, but I just wonder how exactly you know what Pokemon your opponent is sending out next.
Easy Without It: Yeah, I didn't want to outright say that in my post, but honestly even without this stuff the main game is still easy. Being no one except the Champion and maybe one of the rivals have a full team you'll always have the advantage in numbers, and a little level grinding can always solve problems with a difficult battle (or item abuse). Speaking of which, you can also spam potions, curing items, ethers, and REVIVES (and can heal your non-active Pokemon) while if your opponent does heal they only have a few Potions and only use it on their active Pokemon (even if they had switched out, which is rare for them to do). The only time you're actually limited is when you face the Pokemon League and that's only not being allowed to go to the Pokemon Center.
The Long Run: Like it or not, to stay relevent Pokemon is going to eventually need to break the formula in some way or mix it up in a new way. Now I imagine the very, VERY core concept will always be around: beat Gym Leaders to get Badges, then beat Elite Four, and finally beat Champion to become Champion. However anything else I would say is up in the air, maybe even number of Gym Leaders/Elite Four or what themes they have (right now everything is based on Types, but whose to say they can't base it on Stats, Strategies, or maybe even meta themes (Dogs, Cats, Fossils, Eeveelutions, etc.)). And of course you always need some kind of antagonistic force, but it doesn't always need to be a villainous team. They could actually have you competing with your rivals, the wild Pokemon are rebelling under the leadership of a Legendary, maybe the Gym Leaders are competing against each other for some reason and you get caught in the middle. Heck, maybe if they do ho you progress through the game in an interesting way it'll help things out (like the popular idea of challenging the Gym Leaders in any order).
I would say there's plenty of life and opportunities in the Pokemon formula, GameFreak just needs to be willing to experiment.
Fun With Math: Let's see, I'll assume whenever there's a group of Pokemon it'll want the average of their base stat. So Mega formula for Lucario+Kanto Starters/Hoenn Starters+Lati@s = 625+((625+634+630)/3))/((630+630+635)/3)+700 = 625+629.67/631.67+700. Now from here it can split depending on what you interpret it as:
If you go by traditional order of operations it'll become 625+629.67/631.67+700 = 626+0.997+700 = 1326.997.
If you interpret it as comparing the two games, it'll become (625+629.67)/(631.67+700) = 1254.67/1331.67 = 0.9422.

WideTomato :
The BW Way: Yeah, the way BW handled things with the HMs is probably the best way if GameFreak doesn't want to change anything. Mulan15262 idea an extension of this.
That said, I don't really see it making the game any more easier. What's the difference having these extra Pokemon with you and going back to the Pokemon Center to get them? What's the difference between having a dedicated HM slave which is what most people do with the none wanted HMs then having a Pokemon with an extra move slot (and even if they use those move slots of another kind of move, by the point that may become an issue they'll probably be taught a few TMs which they'll be swapping out so this just saves the time of replacing the TMs)? Of course I doubt they'll ever do that, but I personally think its worth a try. And as I pointed out there would be plenty of restrictions (like Exp. Share won't affect the back-up Pokemon). Speaking of which, what's the different having the Pokemon as back-up and having them rot in the box? If anything you'll be able to bond with more of your Pokemon if they're in your party (though once again in order to increase Happiness while walking around they need to be in the active party).
Of course another idea is making all the HMs usable. I always had the idea that they could base the HMs power on how many Badges you have to prevent power creep, as you grow in power so they're useful no matter what point in the story they are but not game breaking. I'd also give most of them useful effects and maybe even change some types.

 

[noobcubed]

Codraroll Pokemon's single-player is very easy, but challenge was never the core method of engagement in Pokemon. The appeal comes, for me at least, in team choice as a method of self-expression, and, increasingly, the little details in the Pokemon world (what in a more serious RPG would be called "lore"). Being easy does not undermine that engagement, and I'm not sure making it harder would make it significantly more entertaining, it would just stretch out the playtime by requiring grinding.

 

[Jimmyus]

I'm not entirely sure if this is an unpopular opinion on Smogon per se, but I'm sick of going to places like the Pokemon subreddit, popular pokemon youtubers channels, and other, smaller sites and seeing mass acceptance of things like the Pokehex browser injection pokemon. The justifications are always hilariously weak, but most importantly I feel like once you're at the point where you're just not willing to put time in to breeding and raising the pokemon you like most (as opposed to just using them in a simulator team) you're violating the spirit of the games. Again, I don't know if that's an unpopular sentiment here, but it sure seems popular in other communities.

 

[Norne]

I'm not entirely sure if this is an unpopular opinion on Smogon per se, but I'm sick of going to places like the Pokemon subreddit, popular pokemon youtubers channels, and other, smaller sites and seeing mass acceptance of things like the Pokehex browser injection pokemon. The justifications are always hilariously weak, but most importantly I feel like once you're at the point where you're just not willing to put time in to breeding and raising the pokemon you like most (as opposed to just using them in a simulator team) you're violating the spirit of the games. Again, I don't know if that's an unpopular sentiment here, but it sure seems popular in other communities.

As long as I'm not into the 1k egg mark, I enjoy breeding for HP. Otherwise I wish I could just create it my own, but since it's a challenge well I just push through. To each their own I guess.

 

[Karxrida]

Yeah breeding can seriously fuck off. I play Pokemon to battle, not to run around in circles waiting for eggs to hatch (and subsequently find out that I got the right IVs but not the Hidden Ability or vicea versa). I bought a Powersave a while ago and never looked back; helps with not having to soft reset Legends as a bonus, fuck that too.

 

[Kurona]

I'm not entirely sure if this is an unpopular opinion on Smogon per se, but I'm sick of going to places like the Pokemon subreddit, popular pokemon youtubers channels, and other, smaller sites and seeing mass acceptance of things like the Pokehex browser injection pokemon. The justifications are always hilariously weak, but most importantly I feel like once you're at the point where you're just not willing to put time in to breeding and raising the pokemon you like most (as opposed to just using them in a simulator team) you're violating the spirit of the games. Again, I don't know if that's an unpopular sentiment here, but it sure seems popular in other communities.

I don't find this a popular opinion at all, and in fact I find people who favour Pokégen and all that sort of thing in the minority.
What I would argue is that the reasons against these services are incredibly weak, as whether you choose to use these things or do things 'legit', you're still going against the spirit of the game. The legit way is, essentially:-

-Inbreeding and incest for the perfect master race genes and the best techniques or at-birth abilities
-Taking the child from it's parents at birth
-Releasing all the newborn imperfect children into the wild
-Training up the newborn or trading it as soon as it's brought into the world
-Forcing it to fight as soon as you're done

Whichever way you obtain these Pokémon, you are in some way going against the spirit of the game. Hence I find it incredibly ridiculous to, as a competitive battler, try to justify that you are still battling legit as the game intends just because it took you more effort to get to that point. In addition, I'm not entirely sure how this effort to get the Pokémon justifies using them. The methods you used to get them do not in any correlate to the skill involves in battling. All this "get it legit" stuff would seem to imply you have to do it, which blocks out trading because it takes just as much effort to get the Pokémon through trading as through genning. Are you saying trading, one of the key components of the franchise is not within the spirit of the game? A lot of the time you'll have to trade for battle ready Pokémon such as version-exclusive legendaries. Finally, I don't really see how you can justify such a long, arduous process to get just one Pokémon for people that don't have a lot of time on their hands but enjoy using what time they have to battle - which applies to a lot more people than you may think, such as those with jobs, those who go to university, those who have to hold up a family etc.
Also... I don't find the problem when at the end of the day, Pokémon is just a game. A game which, fortunately, has many ways for people to play it. I really don't see how people who hack Pokémon in enjoy the game any less than people willing to invest so many hours of their life into one game. Really, you're going to need a shitton of time just for breeding one Pokémon, when do you get to enjoy anything else?

 

[Jimmyus]

I think your bullet points are specious and caricature my meaning. Obviously the mechanics of the game encompass breeding in the way that breeding is typically done. This is evidenced by the great lengths that Gamefreak has gone to make breeding attractive and facilitate the creation of great pokemon. The 'spirit of the game', as I define it, is the good faith usage of mechanics created and intended by the designers of the game to be used. This definition, I believe, is both internally consistent and easily answers your trade vs breeding issue and the inherent moral qualms about the method of breeding. The 'spirit of the game' of baseball, for example, includes stealing home base (a loose allegory for trading), but does not include running in a circle around home plate then claiming you scored a home run without hitting the ball.

Incidentally, you're the one who equated breeding knowledge, patience and capacity with competitive skill, not I. Competitive skill is obviously a mostly separate entity from the breeding game. It is also not the point. The point is that part in parcel of the handheld game is the raising of your own pokemon, or making trades for pokemon you need, ostensibly for roughly equivalent value. Even gifting, or constructive gifts in the form of disproportionate trades are contemplated by how the handheld works: handing out torchics with speed boost and shiny beldums to brand new save files is proof of that. What is not contemplated is circumventing all game mechanics because "who has the time for that anyway".

Indeed, your argument further is internally illogical. If people do not have time to breed, do they really have time to play? Further, when simulators like Pokemon Showdown exist, what is the point of literally injecting pokemon into your cartridge, when a much more effective platform for competition is easily available? You might argue that Showdown is not an official Nintendo property and thus should be a separate discussion, but I counter by arguing that that distinction is irrelevant. In other words, because Showdown exists, it obviates any need you have for injecting pokemon. I understand not everyone would use showdown, but once you start moving further and further away from the heart of current pokemon competitive battling (handheld and not on showdown, not a lot of time to invest, etc.), the actual need for "perfect pokemon" is less and less defensible. You don't need perfect pokemon to stomp random passersby who are uninformed.

But you're right, enjoyment of the game is subjective. My problem is not with people's subjective enjoyment, it is the internally inconsistent logic behind the position.

 

[noobcubed]

Kurona you are right on everything here, but particularly the "Pokegen goes against the spirit of Pokemon" bullshit argument. Indeed I would contend that "the spirit of Pokemon" is encapsulated pretty well by Karen's eternal line, "Real trainers should win with their favourites", a philosophy which Smogon has spent its entire lifespan trying to stamp out and is in general anathema to competitive Pokemon.

 

[Kurona]

I think your bullet points are specious and caricature my meaning. Obviously the mechanics of the game encompass breeding in the way that breeding is typically done. This is evidenced by the great lengths that Gamefreak has gone to make breeding attractive and facilitate the creation of great pokemon. The 'spirit of the game', as I define it, is the good faith usage of mechanics created and intended by the designers of the game to be used. This definition, I believe, is both internally consistent and easily answers your trade vs breeding issue and the inherent moral qualms about the method of breeding. The 'spirit of the game' of baseball, for example, includes stealing home base (a loose allegory for trading), but does not include running in a circle around home plate then claiming you scored a home run without hitting the ball.

Incidentally, you're the one who equated breeding knowledge, patience and capacity with competitive skill, not I. Competitive skill is obviously a mostly separate entity from the breeding game. It is also not the point. The point is that part in parcel of the handheld game is the raising of your own pokemon, or making trades for pokemon you need, ostensibly for roughly equivalent value. Even gifting, or constructive gifts in the form of disproportionate trades are contemplated by how the handheld works: handing out torchics with speed boost and shiny beldums to brand new save files is proof of that. What is not contemplated is circumventing all game mechanics because "who has the time for that anyway".

Indeed, your argument further is internally illogical. If people do not have time to breed, do they really have time to play? Further, when simulators like Pokemon Showdown exist, what is the point of literally injecting pokemon into your cartridge, when a much more effective platform for competition is easily available? You might argue that Showdown is not an official Nintendo property and thus should be a separate discussion, but I counter by arguing that that distinction is irrelevant. In other words, because Showdown exists, it obviates any need you have for injecting pokemon. I understand not everyone would use showdown, but once you start moving further and further away from the heart of current pokemon competitive battling (handheld and not on showdown, not a lot of time to invest, etc.), the actual need for "perfect pokemon" is less and less defensible. You don't need perfect pokemon to stomp random passersby who are uninformed.

But you're right, enjoyment of the game is subjective. My problem is not with people's subjective enjoyment, it is the internally inconsistent logic behind the position.

I would certainly argue that equating breeding knowledge to competitive skill is rather the point, despite it not being directly addressed in your original statement. What your statement seemed to imply is that for at least the most part, only those who have the ability and time to breed should be permitted to battle. This to me directly correlates to the idea that you should have breeding knowledge in order to competitively play, and hence why I do not like this sort of idea. Compare to other competitive games such as Smash Brothers and Street Fighter. For these competitive fighting games, the only preparation you need to do is to just play the game as you will in official tournaments, practicing and honing your skills. You might give the slight argument that Custom Moves have recently been allowed in certain Smash Tournaments, but for the most part Tournaments have the game at it's simplest. To quote the meme; "Fox only, no items, final destination". While now a weapon of humour, the statement still stands to show that this is how most competitive games are done: at their simplest, with all preparation being the game at nothing but it's simplest.
But then we come to Pokémon, a game which - to my knowledge - has no direct comparison, as it finds the need to double it's preparation time with breeding and training. The problem here is that the breeding and training of Pokémon in no way relates to battle skill and in no way actually prepares you for battle, hence the time you could be using practising your skills and trying out new techniques is instead wasted on something which is time consuming and prepares you for absolutely nothing - it certainly prepares the Pokémon, but for you as a player, what skills have you learned to bring to battle? This is one of the reasons I am for Pokégenning -- it saves you the bother of having to go through an unnecessary, directionless formula.
Now of course, you have the rebuttal of "If you don't have this time, why do you have the time to battle?" and in addition, "Why not Showdown?". To combat both of these points, I am afraid I must bring down on you a slant of reality. A battle takes no less than half an hour. Breeding and training a single Pokémon can take around 3-4 hours at the least, and that's if you're very lucky with the breeding. Expand this to the fact you need six Pokémon for a team, the fact you'll have more than one team, the fact you may later find the Pokémon you've bred and trained no longer fits or is not as good as once thought, and you're caught in an endless cycle of constantly breeding and training just so you can battle. The time of preparation far outweighs the amount of time invested into the actual battle, and is absolutely mandatory. In addition, one who has a full-time job can choose to simply take their days off to travel to a tournament for the big battles; they simply cannot do this whenever they want on a whim for the time needed to breed and train.
Finally, "Why not showdown?". This would be a good argument, if not for two very big factors: Pokétubers and VGC. To start off with the simplest one, VGC is done with the real games, and not Showdown. You can certainly practise in Showdown, but when it comes down to it, you're going to need the real games and Pokémon in those games to actually compete at the tournament. A lot of people don't have the time to breed and train specifically for this instead of actually practising their skills, especially when the VGC rulesets are announced mere months prior. And finally, Pokétubers. Pokétubers also do not have a lot of time on their hands for this; having to find battles, create the videos, edit the videos, not to mention other videos on their channel they might have and in addition a ton of other real-life factors such as jobs, other hobbies, just whatever you can think of. And to keep themselves fresh or just to do different tiers, they are going to need different teams every 5-6 videos. To expect them to breed and train a whole new team in that space of time on a frequent basis with all of their other responsibilities is simply absurd and shows a basic misunderstanding of people having lives outside of Pokémon.
To conclude, the unique situation of competitive Pokémon in which preparation does not correlate in any way to the actual skill of battle means to me that artificially cutting out said preparation is absolutely fine and should in no way be shunned.

 

[Norne]

Kurona you are right on everything here, but particularly the "Pokegen goes against the spirit of Pokemon" bullshit argument. Indeed I would contend that "the spirit of Pokemon" is encapsulated pretty well by Karen's eternal line, "Real trainers should win with their favourites", a philosophy which Smogon has spent its entire lifespan trying to stamp out and is in general anathema to competitive Pokemon.

Don't bring the Karen speech, the anthem of the Dunsparce holds no grounds here, favorite is a subjective theme.

As a player one holds favorite for their niche and roles. As a role player one likes a pokemon appearance.

All in all I'm grateful for the gentleman in ORAS giving us the most beautiful speech about battle role discarding that outdated piece of trash called Karen speech.

I'm not against legal hacks, I'm probably on the 2% of the franchise that likes breeding and takes such stuff as a challenge against the RNG (Naive HA HP ice volt tackle Pikachu as my prime XY example), and thus I understand that most have no patience for such ordeal yet know and yearn for a team that requires such obscure things to work reliably want to take a shortcut, they should be encouraged not punished nor looked down. Team effectivity and momentum to fulfill a winning condition is what this game is about not pretending to role play about pets.

On a side note I cringe when I see shinies, my scars from DP have not healed, I encourage people to get a set in 2 steps for a team... But mother of God don't make everything shinny... Those freaking sparkles are useless and steal precious time from us... Specially on heavy switch prediction scenarios.

Seriously.... Fuck Karen speech trash. Long live team building!

 

[Jimmyus]

So, the way I understand your rebuttal, your actual defense applies only to two small subsets of the community. I find the 'Pokétubers' argument very suspect. To make a rough comparison: do league of legends pros, or those people who make a living playing league of legends get free access to new champions, runes, etc. (i.e. items within that game which must be purchased with real money, or, in the more likely case, grinded out through actual play of the game)? Of course not, because they have no ownership or proprietary interest in the game they make money off of and are thus bound by its rules. The publishers of League of Legends even included a method of skipping the grinding inherent to the game, something notably missing from pokemon (despite it existing in, for example, pokemon shuffle). Am I to believe that this distinction of available grind skips is an accident, or just an inconvenience? That seems unlikely.

I think the comparison is even less favorable than that, actually: league of legends players typically need access to the new champion immediately, instead of in the delayed fashion of poketuber videos.

I think the VGC argument is barely plausible, mainly because of the time is of the essence argument. However, I submit to you that game freak has clearly and obviously designed the game and VGC on the assumption that one will obtain their Pokemon through authorized methods only. To that end, having Pokemon of dubious legitimacy in your game proper is of limited value. Compounded by the reality that breeding should be a relatively small portion of the design phase of your team, I question the dire necessity your defense implies VGC players have.

Edit: fortunately as a junior associate I can get away with texting in meetings.

 

[Kurona]

So, the way I understand your rebuttal, your actual defense applies only to two small subsets of the community. I find the 'Pokétubers' argument very suspect. To make a rough comparison: do league of legends pros, or those people who make a living playing league of legends get free access to new champions, runes, etc. (i.e. items within that game which must be purchased with real money, or, in the more likely case, grinded out through actual play of the game)? Of course not, because they have no ownership or proprietary interest in the game they make money off of and are thus bound by its rules. The publishers of League of Legends even included a method of skipping the grinding inherent to the game, something notably missing from pokemon (despite it existing in, for example, pokemon shuffle). Am I to believe that this distinction of available grind skips is an accident, or just an inconvenience? Preposterous.

I'll have to edit this later, I have to go back to work. I think your VGC argument is just barely plausible, but still mainly a rationalization; I'll elaborate my point in a few hours.

I find it very interesting that you choose to contradict your own point of the comparisons between LoL and Pokémon when you say there is a method of skipping the grinding, which is exactly the same thing I have been trying to justify for Pokémon. I have absolutely no knowledge on LoL so to argue about it in detail would be very silly, but perhaps someone more versed in it than me could challenge the point you are making, but to my knowledge this grinding would seem to be part of the game rather than an annoyance you have to get by in order to actually play. It comes back to the fact that the grinding and preparation is through doing the exact same thing you will in higher play - again, breeding and training in no way correlates to the actual battles you will eventually fight. In fighting games, the preparation is the same as the actual battles. In MMORPGs, the preparation is the same as the actual battles. In Pokémon, the preparation is not the same as the actual battles. That is the key difference here I am trying to get across.
Your next argument is a little difficult to pin down, but it seems to go across the lines of "Game Freak intended it, therefore it must be fine"? Please correct me on this if I am wrong, but I fail to see what else it could be. If this is your argument, there are a lot of fallacies in that by assuming that Game Freak knows exactly who the players will be and what they will do. To bring up a relatively old joke, this is the same company who gave a base 150 Special Attack stat to Aegislash and were surprised when people used it's special sets. The point here being that Game Freak is unlikely to know exactly what players will do, who the players are and definitely will not know their schedules.
Finally, I would argue against your 'two small subsets' argument. To be frank, we are debating over a small subset of the community already -- there are very few competitive players compared to the community as a whole, and hence Pokétubers and VGCers make up a very large majority in this regard, as there would be few others who would competitively play in-game. Hence I find this part to be a large fallacy.
Finally, and I apologize as this will sound very condenscending, but I think you are taking this far too seriously. This is a video game we are talking about, not a serious worldwide issue where you should be absolutely abhorred and disgusted of a certain decision. If someone chooses to Pokégen, I don't see why anyone including yourself should have a negative view of them. It's simply how they are choosing to play one single game, and in the grand scheme of things, it really doesn't matter.

I do not wish to continue this argument any further as it is starting to clog up the thread and it is clear that neither of us are shifting the positions of the other any time soon. This may make an interesting topic for a thread, but a full-out debate going on for pages and pages on this one topic is not the intention of this thread, hence I will have to end off by saying we will simply have to agree to disagree.

 

[Jimmyus]

That's fine, I'll drop the points except to note that you misunderstood my league comparison and mischaracterized my arguments, and that I don't feel like I was particularly vehement at any point, I was just expressing what is obviously now an unpopular opinion. But, pursuant to your wishes I won't try to defend myself further.

 

[Pikachu315111]

Hmm, to use the tools within the game to breed for hours on getting the perfect Pokemon or to use a 3rd party device to artificially create one within minutes, that is the question.

Well I would say it all depends on what you want to do. In my humble opinion, if you're just going to battle online then you might as well use a 3rd party device since I bet you many of the players you'll face would have also. However if you were to go to an official Pokemon Tournament then, sorry, you better get to breeding since I don't think the tournament holders would be too happy to hear you're competing with a team of hacked Pokemon (even if they're all technically legal to get), and they have the right to disqualify/take away your title.

Hmm, though all this talk does make me wonder how would an in-game team do against other players online...

 

[Norne]

Hmm, to use the tools within the game to breed for hours on getting the perfect Pokemon or to use a 3rd party device to artificially create one within minutes, that is the question.

Well I would say it all depends on what you want to do. In my humble opinion, if you're just going to battle online then you might as well use a 3rd party device since I bet you many of the players you'll face would have also. However if you were to go to an official Pokemon Tournament then, sorry, you better get to breeding since I don't think the tournament holders would be too happy to hear you're competing with a team of hacked Pokemon (even if they're all technically legal to get), and they have the right to disqualify/take away your title.

Hmm, though all this talk does make me wonder how would an in-game team do against other players online...

If the IVs EVs and roles are done properly, it can fare well.
If it's starter bunch of box legends and regional bird randomly trained and non soft reseted...it goes wrong so very wrong.

 

[WideTomato]

It stands no chance at all. I've tried this a lot early XY and while I did win some battles due to lack of skills on my opponents side, whenever I faced a good player with a good team, it was gg from that. The lack of IVs, nature and proper EV investment makes the game near impossible, it is not easy to win when your greninja gets outsped by your opponents garchomp.

If you really want to use an ingame team, setting up is the key. If you can overcome the speed difference with a couple of dragon dances or a geomancy you might stand a chance against a competitive team.

I really don't see a problem in hacking for personal use, as long as you treat the game and other players decisions in a respectful manner. Don't claim they were not hacked, this is a no brained. Don't use them if you agreed not to use hacked pokemon. Don't trade them on the gts or wonder trade, not everyone is fine with hacked pokemon and you don't do anyone a favor by trading them around. I don't mind hacking, but keep them to yourself and people who asked for them.