OU Someone refresh my memory

Mr.E

unban me from Discord
is a Two-Time Past SPL Champion
How many Explosions define an "Explosion" team anyway? Both Spikers get it, though you may not see it all the time on Forry, and one of them will be on the vast majority of teams. Eggy and Gengar are both really good regardless; Gengar sometimes uses Destiny Bond as a contingency plan against Pursuiters and would-be sweep attempts. Personally I think Explosion takes a ton of "finesse" anyway. You can only press the button once and everything in GSC has multiple switch-ins. It's very easy to back yourself into a corner because you blew up the wrong target or, worse, hit a Normal resist. If you're just spamming Explosion without really knowing what you're doing, you'll get some wins but the odds are weighted against you. insert rant about probability free garchomp etc.
 
If it depended on me I'd ban HP legends without thinking twice. And while we are at it, bring back Celebi too (and then Ho-oh as well because well yeah). Let's face it though, the "catching legendaries with the desired DVs is very difficult" argument is absolutely pointless. Which is a shame.

Honestly, cloyster and zapdos sitting at those numbers has been the trend for huh, the last 5 years? It's been like that since the beginning of the PO era. GSC has always been a bit disappointing to me because it has never quite been the metagame I once thought it would be when I got into it back in the last decade. But I guess I only have myself to blame for that. It's hard to explain though.
 

Disaster Area

formerly Piexplode
Celebi? I get the arguement for ho-oh to drop.. and the controversy of lax OU, but uhhh.. why would you want to drop Celebi but ban HP legends too? I know the HP Legend rule would still leave raikou/zapdos with their main coverage SE on Celebi but nevertheless.

My curiosity as someone who just reads about GSC but doesn't really play it
 
Just find some kind of glitch that makes Body Slam paras halve attack and thunder paras halve the satk of the inflicter. or maybe find like an hp rollover to 65535. #breakGSC

ok srs thought now

Isn't creating hard answers (how arbitrary it is/isn't aside) to Zapdos and Raikou just decreasing the interplay of chip damage and momentum? Usually to take down zapdos I need to get it to lower health, and force it to rest with an Ice Beam from nido, which from there king has the upper hand. I actually need to be careful to not get hit by the HP Ice on the switch in. Just another personal preference among many, but being able to blindly switch grounds into Zapdos and Raikou seems a bit boring and mindless in its own right.

p.s. in regards to making Marowak and Rhydon better, Cloyster itself tends to dissuade me from using them a lot more than Hidden Power. A bit too straightforward and unjustifiable though n_n
 
Because I want a slower paced GSC.
basically this is what i'm getting at. that's the gsc meta. shit exploding every 3-4 turns is a stupid metagame. i don't care how much skill you think it requires, it's not gsc.
 
If you want a slower paced GSC, imho the way is to ban Curselax. Italians have played GSC on Netbattle in a server for years even after Shoddy Battle/PO/PS came out, with the old rules of "no curselax, no hp legends, yes sleeptrappers". It definitely was a slow-paced gsc, but most probably because of the Curselax ban. Curselax is very cheap. I'm not sure, however, that the pace of the mg is just a ban/unban thing. Actually it has probably a lot to do with the players.

I'm not sure for example if the hp legend ban will really slow down GSC. Maybe people will just think that "now I can't kill grounds with my hp ice, let's drop zapdos for another random exploder". I get Borat's point of the explosion abusing, though. I think it actually requires skills, but sometimes it kinda doesn't and it forces a lot GSC into being too much of a matchup-based game, which actually always was, but it's a bit too much now, especially when an exploding team faces a stall team: the winner is almost written in stone (it depends from the mons)

But, with regard to Celebi, I'm scared. That guy is capable of slowing down even ADV OU. You don't simply kill a Celebi in GSC, man.
 
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Banning curselax would be counterproductive if anything. Solid defensive cores handle it all day and curselax is also the best snorlax set to use against the explosion teams we are pretending to nerf. Yeah, I want drumlax back, but that's not the way.

But the reality is that what GSC really needs is active players anyway. And if we were to "slow down even more" the GSC metagame, we'd just give them a reason not to play GSC at all, which is unfortunate. The guys who played GSC in its early days are close to their thirties or into them and retired for the most part. The playerbase GSC has to target these days would come from the newer gen player with the fast paced style of play and mindset. Fast explosion teams are more than good enough for everybody with that mindset to stick to them and to the zapdos/cloyster/exeggutor core. So if those teams were to take a small hit, I'm afraid it would cause some of the potential GSC players to give up on GSC completely rather than just mix up their teams and playstyles.

For the new gen players it's much easier to get into RBY because it's a simple and dynamic metagame. They will always try RBY out before GSC. Moreover, there are many relatively new players who only play RBY and have never even touched the new gens.

So RBY is fun and simple. ADV is not that old and relatively similar to BW+. And finally GSC is that boring ass metagame that gets the short end of the stick.
 
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Disaster Area

formerly Piexplode
So RBY is fun and simple. ADV is not that old and relatively similar to BW+. And finally GSC is that boring ass metagame that gets the short end of the stick.
ADV takes quite a hit though from not being in smog tour - it'll be interesting to see what happens to it and dpp on gen 7's inception. I think there's also the issue with that is whilst it's a meta with a ton of depth the discussion of it is very barren. At least for RBY and GSC there's a lot of recent information readily available in a couple of different places. I've seen more NU discussion recently than OU in the tier ._. I mean have I been missing something or is it, for this apparently quite big playerbase (from what I've heard, there's an awful lot of good ADV players who are still around - SPL was particularly stacked in ADV I noticed too whilst GSC was struggling to get by, for example) does noone like to chat on the forums? Is it because of the time being just pre- and during SPL that there's absolutely no discussion? I mean, RBY/GSC's slowed down a bit over this period, but I'm curious outside of this time is there more discussion of it? sorry to derail the topic I'm just curious ~_~
 
Banning curselax would be counterproductive if anything. Solid defensive cores handle it all day and curselax is also the best snorlax set to use against the explosion teams we are pretending to nerf. Yeah, I want drumlax back, but that's not the way.

But the reality is that what GSC really needs is active players anyway. And if we were to "slow down even more" the GSC metagame, we'd just give them a reason not to play GSC at all, which is unfortunate. The guys who played GSC in its early days are close to their thirties or into them and retired for the most part. The playerbase GSC has to target these days would come from the newer gen player with the fast paced style of play and mindset. Fast explosion teams are more than good enough for everybody with that mindset to stick to them and to the zapdos/cloyster/exeggutor core. So if those teams were to take a small hit, I'm afraid it would cause some of the potential GSC players to give up on GSC completely rather than just mix up their teams and playstyles.

For the new gen players it's much easier to get into RBY because it's a simple and dynamic metagame. They will always try RBY out before GSC. Moreover, there are many relatively new players who only play RBY and have never even touched the new gens.

So RBY is fun and simple. ADV is not that old and relatively similar to BW+. And finally GSC is that boring ass metagame that gets the short end of the stick.
From my experience, RBY and GSC were more straightforward than ADV. I always felt when playing ADV OU that there were all of these threats to prepare for, and that you have to know the game in order to play it. DPP is not that difficult to pick up, though I do admit I wish I would have more experience with it (also, DPP UU is actually really fun, despite how few games you will ever get). BW2's playerbase is dead too - I admit the metagame itself would be more interesting if we had a larger BW2 player base.
 

Lavos

Banned deucer.
But the reality is that what GSC really needs is active players anyway. And if we were to "slow down even more" the GSC metagame, we'd just give them a reason not to play GSC at all, which is unfortunate. The guys who played GSC in its early days are close to their thirties or into them and retired for the most part. The playerbase GSC has to target these days would come from the newer gen player with the fast paced style of play and mindset. Fast explosion teams are more than good enough for everybody with that mindset to stick to them and to the zapdos/cloyster/exeggutor core. So if those teams were to take a small hit, I'm afraid it would cause some of the potential GSC players to give up on GSC completely rather than just mix up their teams and playstyles.
I feel that I can offer a unique perspective on this issue. I'm not in my thirties, nor my twenties for that matter. I won't even be recognized as a legal adult for a couple more months. And I'm definitely a newer player, just look at my join date for proof of that. I started playing competitive Pokemon during the early BW era, when the most common teams were hyper offense centered around Deo-S leads and Sand spam with LO Excadrill. I grew up with an extremely offensive and fast take on the game, when everything OHKOd everything else and games were all but decided at team preview. I'm basically the quintessential "new" player that Crystal is referring to here. The reason why I feel that I can offer a unique perspective on the issue is that I'm a newer player who initially learned the game as it was in BW, fast and aggressive. Then I watched Colchonero vs Earthworm in SPL4 and decided I wanted to learn GSC. I did a ton of research. I read Borat's guides 10+ times. I went on the Mount Silver boards and read everything posted by Jorgen and Crystal. I found personal tutors to help me learn the metagame, Isa and M Dragon among them. And I feel as though now I'm finally at a competent level. After a little over two years of being involved in GSC, playing on ladder, making my own teams, starting in SPL, etc., I can offer an informed opinion about the meta.

My personal opinion is that Explosion teams are currently too strong for how easy they are to play. Certain Pokemon are too good and too catch-all. The fact that I can slap together a team with 4 booms + electric + lax and even be competitive against a stall team with perfect synergy and coverage is disgraceful to what I think it means to play GSC. When I queue up for a match on ladder I'm looking for an intelligent contest with lots of back and forth, slow chipping away at the enemy, double/triple/quad-switching, and a clear opening/middle game/endgame. Not some 30 turn show of aggression where the entire match rides on a series of coin flips to block Explosions. That is not the metagame I signed up for and I don't think it's the metagame that any player who is consciously choosing to play a slower meta wants. I think if an individual is making a conscious choice to invest in GSC and play the game, they recognize what that entails. It means far longer matches, a more intelligent competition, lots of switching, no hard hitters or absolute win conditions. So when I match into a standard zap/cloy/egg/gar/lax/lix boom team and get the same exact match I got 30 minutes ago, decided entirely by the turns on which my opponent chooses to Explode and which button I click on those turns, it makes me not want to play any more matches. I don't get that intelligent competition, I get a mindless fight. That's not what I play GSC for. I play GSC because I think it holds a very interesting place in terms of the metas available here. It is the OU meta with the most centralizing Pokemon, unless you want to argue RBY Tauros, and certainly the most powerful one. You always prepare for Lax and you prepare for all variants of Lax. But I think additionally and even more importantly, when you look at this game, you can expect GSC to be the meta where luck matters the least, and by logical extension, where skill matters the most. This is what attracts new players just like it's what attracted me. Players who are sick of a faster game, who want a chance to prove that they aren't just good at constructing a counterteam and predicting the right side of the coin to come up, but also outthinking their opponent and beating them on a more fundamental level. To some players, like me, it brings a sense of raw competition that other metagames can't compare to. I'm saying this in all seriousness from a perspective of someone who has gone through this experience.

Listen, you guys are all worried about what happens to GSC's popularity and new playerbase if we implement this change. I'm telling you people do not come to GSC so they can use 4 Exploders and a Zapdos and a Curselax. If they want to have a fast game with lots of high damage they'll go play RBY and crit stuff every other turn and have a blast doing it. People don't come to GSC to play the teams that we're worried about nerfing if we ban HP legends. Sure, they may try out a boom team every once in a while and enjoy it, but the fundamental reason that people decide to learn and play GSC is to experience the slower and more thoughtful metagame that it uniquely provides. So I think that if you're worried about hurting the new playerbase with this ban, you have a misunderstanding of why there exists a new playerbase in the first place.

(As for the ban itself, I fully support its implementation. HP Raikou is okay, I don't think it's necessarily too good but it's toeing the line. But Zapdos is a completely different story. It provides such a full stop to so many different threats while maintaining a downright terrifying offensive presence. And the fact that it's favored to beat Nidoking 1v1 is disgusting. But these arguments have been made far more eloquently in previous posts. Just echoing the sentiments of others.)
 

Texas Cloverleaf

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Excepting the fact that I exclusively use the standard boom team basically everything Lavos said also applies to me
 

Jorgen

World's Strongest Fairy
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Are our gripes against Zapdos or Explosion? Because it sounds like the latter. Zapdos is a great anchor but let's not get ahead of ourselves, HP Zapdos isn't the only thing in the world holding Explosion offense together.

If you really want slower GSC, ban NYPC moves (except for LK Nidoking, because he's a cool dude). Old-school stalls get a lot stronger and therefore a lot more usable when they no longer need to account for GrowthVap and LK Lax.
 
I can only speak for myself here but most of the times I open PO these days there's around 5 players on the GSC tier 4 of which would be idling and the last one won't respond. It's annoying, even though ironically I could get a few games yesterday. Granted, I'm definitely not the most devoted player right now (for example I didn't consider joining SPL because it requires more dedication that I can or want to give), but seing GSC dead like that makes me care even less. RBY has become quite repetitive to me so I basically just want to play GSC. If GSC had the same amount of active players as RBY, I'd definitely join PO every other day to get a few games done. Having tried to keep regular GSC tournaments for over a year I ended up giving up because it was not worth the struggle for how time consuming it was. The tournaments ended up with 8 players at most (5-6 usually) and by the start of the first round there would be already two inactive players. Lutra tried holding regular GSC tournaments too in a much more organized way but the reality is that the last GSC tournament held started last year in December and hasn't finished yet, in comparison to the RBY season which is being a huge success with 16 to 32 player regular tournaments.

@On topic, I don't think anybody's goal here is to get rid explosion, but just make it take a small hit. Actually more than the concept of explosion, the concept of the same explosion team over and over again that relies quite a lot on the consistency offered by Zapdos. I'm fine with vap lklax etc.
 
I wasn't around at the time when the HP Legends ban was a thing. But if you think it would benefit the metagame, why don't you do set up some games and see if it feels better overall?
 

M Dragon

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Standard boom is also one of the easiest teams to beat, and most people don't even know how to use it, the main goal is luring Zapdos counters and let it sweep, although it has some big weakness like for example Tyranitar.
Versions with an abuser like Macham, Vaporeon or Nidoking are better.

Explosion is a very good thing in GSC, as a high risk high reward move. Yes, you could play with random booms, but you will never be consistent. If you are booming randomly with an Explosion team you are just playing it wrong.
 

Lavos

Banned deucer.
I'm getting tired of the discussion at this point. Both sides have made a fair case. If the end goal is to figure out which GSC metagame we think is more enjoyable, I'd like to arrange test battles with HP legends banned. This might allow us to see where the game is going and decide if we like it or not, with the advantage of not having to rush to full implementation or make a full stop for fear of change. Any takers? I'm open to playing a couple rounds anytime. Leave me a VM if you're interested. Hopefully some veterans who have experienced both metas will participate.
 

Karxrida

Death to the Undying Savage
is a Community Contributor Alumnus
I'm not a GSC player and never plan to be in the near future, but I lurk this subforum a bit since it makes for interesting reads and want to say my piece.

Why are people arguing for this if HP Legends aren't broken? The point of banning things is because they are too powerful and/or bad for the meta, which are far as I can tell from this thread HP Legends are neither. This honestly just seems really stupid to me, especially when it's an arbitrary complex ban. If you seriously find them that much of an issue quit being pussies and just ban the Mons outright. Alternatively, if you're doing this for a change of pace, just set up a tour with Lax banned and see what happens.
 
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Bedschibaer

NAME = FUCK
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There have been tours without lax fairly recently (one with hp legends banned, a minitour with hp legends allowed) and from my own experiences from those I gotta say that those metas are in no way better than the current gsc meta. This is always pretty subjective, but I don't think a change in gsc is really needed at this point. I don't really have alot eperience with only hp legends banned, i kinda doubt it'd be the nonplusultra solution to all "problems" in gsc though.
 
I'm in a position where I'm kinda noob at gsc, but I've dabbled in it a little, and am currently trying it at the moment. So I'm not really equipped to comment on the meta, but I'm not disinterested in the outcome of these discussions either, and strictly in terms of policy I'm wondering the same questions

Based on the preceding posts there's some inconsistency with what the issue is- Borat makes some cool discussion about HP Zapdos but many of the other posts revolve purely around Explosion spam. Notable is that HP Raikou is literally never discussed, the most relevant is that Borat briefly mentions that it not being affected by the ban would be nitpicky, which is a bizarre point to make since HP legends is already an insanely nitpicky ban anyways. So I'm sensing that no-one's got an issue with HP Kou, the issue lies with either Zap or Explosion spam.

As far as I can tell, assuming that there is an issue with the meta and people do decide to ban things, then the HP legend ban literally only has precedent going for it, and even then it's not a strong precedent because it's not how it was initially played, it arose later on for reasons unclear (please correct me if I'm wrong).

On the flip side, HP legends is a complex ban which is generally undesirable (it's really nitpicky lol). It's also really messy in that it's an arbitrary ban that affects more than just the intended target- it's unclear whether this is just Zapdos or Explosion teams in general, but there are 5 legendaries besides Zap that would get affected (although only 1 is relevant to the meta). If it's explosion teams that everyone wants to nerf, why not directly target them, when Zap is good for plenty other teams? On top of that I gotta say that banning HP Legends before Lax comes across as a bit of a joke imo.

From my limited experience, it's not as though explosion offense is mindless either, there's still work to be done in ensuring that you are in a good position to boom and that you're able to capitalise on it to create an advantage. It certainly differs from the long-term nuanced play that a lot of gsc entails, but I'd argue that adapting to that kind of play is a relatively significant barrier to entry into the meta anyway.

Basically I don't have an issue with it, so no need for bans, but I've already made clear that my sentiment in that regard should be taken with a grain of salt due to my own relative inexperience
 
If one goes down the road of complex bans anyway, the best way to nerf explosion teams would probably be to... nerf explosion (dont kill me). Limiting the number of exploders, including selfdestruct, kind of limits the "boom team" no questions asked. But what number should it be nerfed to? I have no clue. 2-3??? Somehow this all just feels like a very arbitrary attempt shape the metagame as some see fit, but I digress.

Banning HP legends just sounds too theoretical to me. Maybe it will work, maybe it won't. Who knows? Testing both metas with individual matches sounds like a great idea, but I worry about how it'll affect the metagame in the long run (people don't always realize the differences right away). I guess test short term, ban/leave it, and if it's banned, then see how it compares (better? worse?) a few months later.
 
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As I've already said the arguments against banning hp legens are pretty stupid and I'm against arbitrarily banning stuff for no reason in general. That's why I said "if it depended on me", because from an objective standpoint it makes no sense to ban them.

On the other hand, bring Celebi and Ho-oh to OU. They need not be banned.
 

Lavos

Banned deucer.
As I've already said the arguments against banning hp legens are pretty stupid and I'm against arbitrarily banning stuff for no reason in general.
these statements contradict each other so I'm assuming you mean "for" instead of "against"

as for all the -atk/+def theory being thrown around, can we get real games please? I will start a mini tour if there's interest
 

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