OPEN DISCUSSION - Gym Concerns and Issues

No offense Gale, but if we had a vote at this point it would be on "should we have a cool thing," then "what cool thing should we have," and then the number of badges to be eligible. Not sure who would vote on that (council?), but since these discussions always end up fizzling out with no side clearly winning actually having a vote this time would be nice.
 

Texas Cloverleaf

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problems with cool things
What incentive do you give people beyond "look at me I'm the best" to remain an elite trainer?

What do you do when ith people who want to remain gym leaders I.e. dogfish?

How do elite trainer and champion challenges work, random teams?

Others, surely, those off the top of my head. I think there's potential merit to such a system but many things need to be made clear first.

Things to do:
Make a list of all the things a cool thing system would require
answer as many of them as possible without discussion, gym council weighs in on feasibility of project
Send to voting on cool thing or no
discuss aforementioned questions, begin processes to make thing
Vote on structure of cool thing
Make it happen
???
Profit

Relevant entities to see this are Frosty Dogfish44 Elevator Music
 
Sorry for not really participating in the E4 topic, it just doesn't interest me. Logistically seems difficult, and I'm skeptical that we'll ever get enough people with a large enough amount of ASB badges to make such a system even worth having. For reference, there are only 5 people with 6+ badges right now. If people want to keep talking about this, I highly suggest making 8 (or even 6) the benchmark for this E4 stuff. Expecting more than a handful of users to get 12+ badges isn't realistic. Honestly, even 8 seems high to me, but it's probably a better place to start.

---

On the other hand, something I think we should focus on first is revamping the prizes for gyms. For one thing, some of the prizes are, well, crap (badges 4, 8, and [the gem part of] 12, I'm looking at you). Secondly, we don't have any prizes for after badge #13 (to me this has higher importance than the E4 system, because frankly it's a lot more likely that Frosty or myself will get 14 + badges than multiple users getting 8+ or 12+). Obviously incredibly biased here, so I don't feel comfortable throwing around concrete suggestions here. On IRC people mentioned that it'd be nice if badge prizes gave you items to be used in TLR, so maybe that's a good starting point?


Also, regarding Flying qualifiers, could everyone interested in applying please reach out to me via PM or VM?
 

Stratos

Banned deucer.
E4 system has been dumb as hell for as long as ive been in asb, we have way too high of a turnover rate to think that it's possibly sustainable. just having gyms is fine.
 

Frosty

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I don't see the need for an elite four. I think, though, that having a champion is good. Have one battle as a benchmark like "if you defeat the champion you will be included on the hall of fame and will be able to access X". Kinda like a asb-friendly version (4 battles is cruel -_-) of what elite four represented in the game.

As I said 1241294812095120597120597 times before: I feel something should be done. Not necessarily an elite four. But something. Having simply one champion is something, and it is suited to our limitations (time limitations, turnover, whatever). Regard people that defeat the champion as "people that beat the Gym League" and give them access to stuff ingame reserves to post-final (special TLRs, for example, or other stuff). And then do like the anime does: there are more than 8 gyms on the anime, but you only need to defeat 8 to try out the E4. But the trainer can try other badges for extra stuff (in our case, extra prizes).

And I agree with emma, reworking the prizes would be nice. While I do like the resist berries stuff (I would bump it to like 5, but that is besides the point), the prize for 8th is 100% moronic, in our situation, and prizes for 14th badges and on are crucial: I see emma and myself with space to go to 14 badges someday soon, although I am not sure I will bother if it ends up being for naught.

EDIT: not to mention that VOPS = no use at all.
 
Upon defeating a Gym Leader you have not defeated before, you may immediately rechallenge another gym. In addition, you may claim the 10 CC Item of their type, e.g. Charcoal for the Fire Gym.

01 BADGE: 10 UC
02 BADGE: 1 Max Revive
03 BADGE: 20 UC
04 BADGE: 2 Type-Resist Berries of each Type
05 BADGE: 30 UC
06 BADGE: 1 Full Restore + 1 Max Elixir
07 BADGE: 40 UC
08 BADGE: VOPs + 1 Battle Item of Choice

09 BADGE: 50 UC
10 BADGE: 1 Master Ball
11 BADGE: 75 UC
12 BADGE: 100 UC + 1 Gem of each Type
13 BADGE: 1 Victini

Gym Leaders are assumed to have their own badge.


imo badges number 4 and 8 are really sucky, just because by the time you have 4 badges you can easily buy however many berries you want (they cost 2 CC for 5, and 36 CC is pretty much pocket change for me, I can make it up with 2 2v2 FE doubles battles) and by the time you have 8 badges you have all the battle items you could want (or can really easily get them, see 36 CC being pocket change) and there's a really good chance you have VOPs, and it's kind of a crappy prize even if you don't.

As for possible prizes, there's always legendaries, items to help you get legendaries, and boatloads of UC. Also, maybe for some of the prizes we could open up the ability to purchase special items such as a max revive?
 

ZhengTann

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Since I last proposed changes to Gym rewards, only IAR gave feedback on it. Now suggesting more radical changes.
Proposal said:
Upon defeating a Gym Leader you have not defeated before, you may immediately rechallenge another gym. In addition, you may claim the 10 CC Item of their type, e.g. Charcoal for the Fire Gym.

1 BADGE: 1 Hyper Potion
2 BADGES: 1 Max Ether
3 BADGES: 1 Max Potion OR 1 Max Revive
4 BADGES: 1 Full Restore OR 1 Max Elixir
5 BADGES: 30 UC
6 BADGES: 1 Max Potion + 1 Max Revive
7 BADGES: 40 UC
8 BADGES: 1 Full Restore + 1 Max Elixir
9 BADGES: (any one of previous prizes already earned)

10 BADGES: 1 Master Ball
11 BADGES: 1 maxed LC (for storytelling flavour stuff)
12 BADGES: (any one of previous prizes already earned)
13 BADGES: 1 Victini
14 BADGES: Elite title (bragging rights)
15 BADGES: 1 of each of non-purchasable TLR items, including Master Ball
16 BADGES: (any one of previous prizes already earned)
17 BADGES: Access to non-purchasable TLR Healing Items
18 BADGES: Champion title (bragging rights, an epitaph, maybe a Smogon CT/Badge)

Gym Leaders are assumed to have their own badge.
Thought process:
  • Boatloads of UC for prizes is a no-no for me. You get UC from reffing, organizing tournaments, profiling facility mons, and doing stuff that benefits other ASBers besides yourself. Winning a gym battle does not count. Also, by the time you earn (an arbitrary) amount of badges, the amount of UC you get would be "pocket change", or large enough to give you (an arbitrary amount of) maxed Pokemon, both of which is dumb IMO.
  • Early prizes give TLR non-accessible healing items to help people on their TLRs. Also current TLR designers rarely give those out on scout runs, so might as well make them available via gyms. Could apply to Raids too, but I'll hold on that thought.
  • Someone once said that Victini will only be accessible via gyms, so agreeing with that someone and not moving Victini from the 13-badge spot because 18 badges for a Victini takes way too long comparatively.
  • Stumped halfway through, so would be much obliged if anyone would suggest stuff to replace prizes that are under bracket in proposal.
  • Notice that 14-badge only says "Elite", not "Elite Four". Because there can be more than one "Champion" and more than four "Elites". Heck, in-game there are 24 "Elite Fours" total from 6 different regions, so the number is moot.
  • If you made it to 17 badges, the 18th likely would not be able provide anything in-ASB to satisfy you, so might as well make it redundant (biased opinion).
Open to feedback.
 
Forgot to post this when it was decided, but Flying qualifiers will start Saturday, April 4th (or if I'm misremembering the date, whenever the Saturday closest to the 4th is). So, if you decide to go for Flying, now you know.

But let's get back to discussing gym rewards. I like zt's list, although I think you should (also) get something else for badge 14 and that the prize for badge 11 might potentially be a bit too good depending on the Pokemon. As much as I personally love UC prizes for badges, roleplay items probably fit better; UC feels kind of like a "here, win more" prize tbh).
 

Frosty

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I don't know if having prizes entirely TLR-Reliant is a good thing. There may be people that don't do TLRs. Food for thought. Maybe convince zarator to give away badges of stuff <_<;.

As for the specific prizes, some pointers:
1) Bragging rights is kinda useless. Vops is currently a prize and is easily the most criticized of them all. Badges by themselves are already bragging rights, so that + bragging rights = redundancy. I would remove all bragging rights stuff without thinking twice.
2) Getting higher on the ladder is really hard, so I don't feel that having filler prizes soon is the way to go. If you are to have "any one of the prizes previous earned", you better stick them all near the end, so the actual relevant prizes come sooner. You can just add a "trainer can pick a prize lower in the list instead of the one he is supposed to get" rule and be done with it and then add other stuff to the "choose one of the others" prizes, since those prizes don't represent a step up on the prizes department, just a repetition of a lower prize.
3) I would include on 8-9 badges access to special TLRs. Sure, those TLRs would need to be created, but Legends accessible only after a certain point (after elite four mostly) is a main thing on the main games, so it may be wise to use the same logic here.


The items themselves....I confess that they seem...not enough for me. But I always think stuff isn't enough so it may be just me?
 

Birkal

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Heart Scale - When equipped, Pokemon can claim tutor moves from any generation at the cost of one (1) MC each for each battle the Pokemon participates in.
Star Piece - When equipped, Pokemon with maximized movepools can claim double the amount of CC (x2) for each battle the Pokemon participates in.
Nugget - Sell for 500 CC.

Bicycle - Trainers with this item can participate in one (1) extra regular battle. Does not stack.
Coin Case - Trainers can store up to 9999 CC in this case, which may attract a certain legendary Pokemon.
Rainbow Wing - Allows trainers a single encounter with Ho-oh on Bell Tower.
Silver Wing - Allows trainers a single encounter with Lugia in the Whirl Islands.


Do I think all of these would be a good idea? No, not really. But my point is that we can make prizes that are alluring for veteran trainers that are unique. When it comes to making a worthwhile prize, we need to consider a) its rarity, and b) its ability to assist further training. The Bicycle and Heart Scale, for example, are extremely valuable in that they allow you to participate in more battles or purchase more moves. This appeals to a trainer's want to train strong Pokemon for cheap. On the other end, rarity can be found through legends. While I think offering Victini is a good prize, we should grant a few more legends. Not outright like Victini, mind you. But perhaps we can make a "simple" TLR which is only accessible with these items. Putting 9999 CC in your Coin Case might grant an encounter with Jirachi, for example. Or using your respective wing can grant a difficult battle where capturing a legend may be possible.

Again, I'm not proposing we add all of these, at least not without some tweaking. But there are definitely prizes we can make that appeal to veteran battlers.
 

Its_A_Random

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Rainbow Wing is already done as the item you get in Toxic Swamp prior to fighting Suicune which forms an item called a Rainbow Bell (Alongside the other two items) to take on Tower of Ash. I can provide the sprite if needed. So perhaps maybe grant a single run in Tower of Ash irrespective of conditions (with save points allowed) once I finally get around to revamping the thing? Or maybe even permanent access to Tower of Ash irrespective of conditions?

Otherwise seems good. Just posting since I am the one behind Ruined Eden after all and making sure things are right hahaha.
 
I think it might be better to tone down the nugget to something that would see more use (maybe, 50 CC) and make the big nugget sell for 500.

Also, for the 11th gym badge award that ZhengTann suggested, I think that that would be too much for badge 11 unless it is unable to evolve.
 

ZhengTann

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Okay, so after the feedback and some minutes of meddling, I've decided to:
  • Remove the LC prize since it was originally meant for flavour lore and stuff, and that is obviously not going to sell at all.
  • Put a Raid currency reward so that Zar can get a clearer picture here instead of from VM convos (420-character limit is a pain), and then provide additional feedback where necessary.
  • Adopt Birks' idea of "Heart Scales" and "exclusive short TLR".
  • Add in a (should be ridiculous) idea of a tournament bye as a Gym prize.
  • EDIT: Tweaked around.
Proposal 3 said:
Upon defeating a Gym Leader you have not defeated before, you may immediately re-challenge another gym. In addition, you may claim the 10 CC Item of their type, e.g. Charcoal for the Fire Gym, as well as one of the prize(s) according to the list below, depending on how many badges you have.

1 BADGE: 1 Hyper Potion
2 BADGES: 1 Max Ether
3 BADGES: 2 Heart Scales - The Pokemon gains two (2) additional KOC for each battle it participates in
4 BADGES: 1 Max Potion OR 1 Max Revive
5 BADGES: 1 Full Restore OR 1 Max Elixir
6 BADGES: 2 penultimate Raid Badges (currently Badges of Valour)
7 BADGES: 1 Max Potion + 1 Max Revive
8 BADGES: 1 Full Restore + 1 Max Elixir
9 BADGES: 3 penultimate Raid Badges (currently Badges of Valour)

10 BADGES: 1 Master Ball
11 BADGES: Backdoor access to certain TLRs
12 BADGES: 4 penultimate Raid Badges (currently Badges of Valour)
13 BADGES: 1 Victini
14 BADGES: Elite title + 1 tournament bye for every Gym Badge after and including this one
15 BADGES: 5 penultimate Raid Badges (currently Badges of Valour)
16 BADGES: 1 of each of non-purchasable TLR items, including Master Ball
17 BADGES: Access to non-purchasable TLR Healing Items
18 BADGES: Champion title (bragging rights, an epitaph, and a permanent place in a sticky-ed ASB thread)

Gym Leaders are assumed to have their own badge.
Will explain more soon as it is 1am now. New thought processes, now in hide tags.
Getting more than 3 Gym badges involves time investment and all that it entails, so I agree with Birks that some kind of item that can help speed up the investment process, even if by a little, would go a long way. I altered the equipped effect so that referees and approvers would have a slightly easier time when it comes to claiming.

"Being a veteran Trainer with Gym victories under my belt has taught me much about how Pokemon fight, how they live, how they love. And how to better train them, live with them, love them."
  • Raid Badges are Raid-exclusive currencies, which are rare enough to obtain unless ASBers rerun Raids. So including Raid Badges in Gym prizes would help Gym winners who are new to Raids to be able to go further without having to ask for babysitting by veteran Raiders, which would help the Raid progress overall, I think.
  • Notice that it only gives out penultimate Raid Badges. This means that people would not get the Raid currencies from the recently released expansion, but the one before that. Currently, Hour of Twilight (with Badges of Light as the main currency) is the latest expansion, with Isle of Lost Relics (using Badges of Valour) before that. So, gym winners would get Badges of Valour, not Badges of Light.
  • Should Zar release a newer expansion in the future, with its own set of currency, Badges of Light will then become part of the Gym prizes. And so on, and so forth.
  • The reason behind this is that (I hope I'm right about) Zar not wanting people to be able to just jump in on completely new expansions and handle the encounters therein with relative ease by overgearing with the artifacts released within the expansions themselves. I noticed that currently, Raiders are allowed to convert Badges of Light to Badges of Valour, but not the other way around.
  • Even so, I am sure even previous expansions have a wide enough selection to be able to give newer Raiders the edge over using normal items. Therefore, giving out penultimate Raid Badges as Gym prizes would be consistent with this line of reasoning, if my circular logic is completely right.
  • And then Zar went ahead and decided on something else entirely. Which is good :) Better, even.
"Dear Trainer, we have heard of your exploits and talents, and it is with utmost gravity that we ask for your help."
  • Inaccessible TLR items being Gym prizes has received no objections so far, so I'm keeping that.
  • Special backdoor access to TLRs basically means that Gym winners who get this prize may permanently unlock one Extended Dungeon without having to meet the prerequisites of that TLR. For example, an ASBer may choose to unlock Heavens' Ascent and thus enter it for Regigigas in the future without having to go through Rock Crag, Ice Spire, and Iron Dungeon.
  • As TLR continues to expand, I think we can expect that more Extended Dungeons will be released as well, providing Gym winners with the opportunity to unlock multiple TLRs.
  • Not sure if IAR or Dogfish would approve though, please comment.
"Psst, hey - you're a strong Trainer. Would you like to know about a secret - the secret of a certain Legendary Pokemon?"
  • If an ASBer won 14 Badges and opt for the "tournament bye" reward, he/she/it would immediately be given 1 bye to be used in future, not ongoing, tournaments. Then, upon winning his/her/its 15th, he/she/it would get his 2nd bye, and so on, and so forth.
  • To use a bye, an ASBer would have declare during sign-ups that he/she/it will be using the bye for the tournament he/she/it decides to participate in. Thereafter, he/she/it would not need to play any preliminary rounds in the tournament.
  • After the finals have finished, and a tournament 1st/2nd/3rd etc. place is determined and tournament prizes may be claimed, the ASBer using the bye may battle the winner of the tournament. Should he/she/it win against the tournament champion, he/she/it would then be eligible to claim one of the penultimate prizes of the tournament. If the tournament champion wins instead, the bye-using ASBer gets nothing.
  • The idea is to give bye-using tournament participants a one-shot chance, who are not interested in the ultimate prize, at winning a tournament prize of their choosing, without having to go through, and face the possibility of losing in, the preliminary rounds.
  • In anime, we sometimes see regional Champions (Alder, Cynthia, Steven Stone) traveling around and participating in local tournaments, for sport, for publicity, and "to encourage younger Trainers to aspire to new heights". Which is the basis for this idea.
  • Not sure if Frosty would approve though, please comment.
"Welcome to the Marysville annual Little Cup open tournament! Winners may get a chance at winning amazing cash prizes, as well as a chance to battle the illustrious Elite Trainer!"
  • Upon winning a Gym badge, ASBers are eligible to claim a prize they've already claimed, lower on the leaderboard. However, doing so means that the ASBer would have to win another Badge in order to be able to claim their new prizes.
  • For example, an ASBer who'd won his/her/its 5th Gym badge may decide to claim a Max Revive instead of a Full Restore or a Max Elixir.
  • But if someone won 14 Gym badges and decide to claim another Master Ball, instead claiming the tournament bye at 15 Gym badges, then he/she/it would only get his/her/its 1st tournament bye starting his/her/its 15th Gym badge, and subsequent byes at 16th Gym badge and above.

Cue feedback.
 
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I personally like the idea of offering Raid-related prizes, but I was thinking something different from Badges. Aside from the obvious "lawl, badges for Badges" confusion, I don't like the idea of offering a prize that I'd need to change with every expansion. Also, it'd be awfully generic. Therefore, I would like to introduce you to... Heirlooms!

In the universe of Warcraft (to which the Raid Zone is inspired, if you hadn't guessed it already), heirlooms are special items whose stats scale with your level. So, if you wear them at level 5, their stats will be as low as your typical lvl 5 item. But as your level grows up, your heirloom's stats will improve accordingly. By the time you reach level 70 or 80, your heirloom will have stats on par with any rare item you could obtain from mobs of your level.

So, how would Heirlooms look like in ASB Raid Zone? My current idea (not final ofc, we're still in a discussion) would be the following. Assuming you have never been in a raid before (or you have been but you lost, hue), your Heirloom would have stats equal to an iLvl 3 artifact - basically, just a tad better than a normal item. But as soon as you defeat a raid (or if you already did before getting your hands on the Heirloom - it's retroactive), the Heirloom's stats would increase accordingly.

Let us see an example of a Heirloom item. This Heirloom would be tuned for healers in general.

Inherited Light's Hammer: Raises the STAB bonus of the holder's attacks by 3. Increases the healing and absorption done by the holder's direct heals and absorption effects by 1.

(Note: "Absorption effects" is basically here to cover the newly introduced Bubble Shield)

These would be the stats if the user in question has never won any raids before. Now, let's suppose he has won a raid from the Stormrage Mountain subzone (the "Vanilla" ASB Raid Zone, so to speak) on any difficulty. This would cause the Heirloom's stats to raise to those of a iLvl 4 item.

Inherited Light's Hammer: Raises the STAB bonus of the holder's attacks by 4. Increases the healing and absorption done by the holder's direct heals and absorption effects by 2.

Now, let's suppose this same guy defeats a raid from Isle of Lost Relics (the first expansion), again on any difficulty (this includes Raikou/Entei/Suicune too). This would increase the heirloom's stats further, bringing it to an iLvl of 5:

Inherited Light's Hammer: Raises the STAB bonus of the holder's attacks by 5. Increases the healing and absorption done by the holder's direct heals and absorption effects by 2, while reducing the energy cost of these moves by 1.

Finally, should the user manage to defeat a raid from Hour of Twilight, the Heirloom's stats will reach their current maximum, becoming those of an artifact of iLvl 7:

Inherited Light's Hammer: Raises the STAB bonus of the holder's attacks by 7. Increases the healing and absorption done by the holder's direct heals and absorption effects by 3, while reducing the energy cost of these moves by 1.

Should I release a new expansion, a new "tier level" would be unlockable.


Ideally there would be at least one Heirloom for physical attackers, one for special attackers, one for healers (not necessarily the one in the example), one for tanks, one for supporters in general (who don't have to be healers), and so on - depending on how many prizes on the "leaderboard" we deem necessary.
 
I know we have a like button but I feel I also need to post just to emphasise how much I like zaras above idea. This definitely needs to happen. Best insentive yet to challenge gyms
 

Its_A_Random

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RE Tournament Byes: Over my dead body. It needlessly complicates tournaments and is essentially a win more prize. Turning a Tournament into a 50% shot at a grand prize is stupid and defeats the purpose of a Tournament which is to beat many people under equal conditions to win a prize. Veto.

The other prizes seem fine for Gym Awards. One question though: Will the Gym rewards be retroactive so people like me who have won seven or more badges be able to claim items like Heirlooms or Back-Door TLR Access or a Hyper Potion or w/e to make up for the fact that we "missed" them?
 

Dogfish44

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I'm inclined to agree, punishing people for getting prizes early seems ludicrous to me.

And like IAR, vetoing the hell on Tourney Byes.
 

Texas Cloverleaf

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On th contrary I think it creates a rich get richer situation especially with respect to tlr items. Heart scales and heirlooms are ongoing so they don't apply to what I'm saying. However, every person who would be eligible for the tlr prizes myself included has already received boatloads of UC and a tlr item as compensation for winning badges already. Giving further rewards for free is unnecessary and arguably unfair to those without the opportunity to warn such UC riches. In no way do I see this as punishing people for winning, you've already been compensated, and in roughly equal values too.

The fact that this would effect myself should hopefully encourage that I have no bias in this fight.
 
How about pay the rewards back and get the new rewards? Lol that would be more difficult to achieve.
Imo the rewards can be given to the badge holders for a nominal price. In that case it is both fair and costs them a little something to get the prizes. Some folks may opt not to get the retroactive prizes too, so they wouldn't need to pay for them.
 

Frosty

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You can make it possible for those people to rechallenge a gym they already beated and get one of the new prizes correspondent to the prizes equal or lower than your current one. Or put a price tag on those like Gale said above. Or even allow trades (the most you would need to pay is like...50UC? It is much, but not THAT hard to get). Or all of those (that is my favourite option).

I know for sure that I'd much rather get Max Potion and Max Revive than 40UC. UC I can get anywhere. Those prizes not. Not to mention that one of the reasons we are discussing changes is because some of the current prizes are ridiculous (looking at you Vops), so having old players be stuck with it is unfair. Bluntly saying "no" to retroactivity due to "justice" is simply silly, as it would result on players being punished for being good at gyms. Yes I am arguing that the value of the prizes is NOT roughly the same. For me I am positive they aren't. The majority of the UC I get, I spend on the silliest thing in existance: buying useless moves to max mons. So I'd much rather (like a billion times more) have had exclusive items or BoV or Artifacts or other unique item (and don't need to have UC useless dumps so I don't sit on cash) than the run-of-the-mill UC I can get elsewhere.
 
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Texas Cloverleaf

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Oh jeez Frosty and emma have a lot of badges. Didn't realize the Master Ball came into play working off of zt's list

edit: also is it possible for you guys to disagree with me more politely? Though I'm sure it's not intended I've been feeling attacked a bit on my recent policy stances and I don't feel like my posts have been inflammatory in nature

edit2: in any case it's pretty clear my opinion is the minority
 

Frosty

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When you say stuff like "No to retroactivity for anything that isn't an ongoing prize I.e. tlr access" without providing reason, I feel tempted to be unpolite, sorry :>. I don't really see any personal attack in those posts (except for the silly part and for that I apologize. I usually say that instead of "disagree" for whatever reasons). But I digress.

Also, Master Ball isn't changed at all (10 badges now and 10 badges on zt's proposal) so I don't really get that specific example to be honest.


Edit: let me add something useful here:

Bottom Line: I don't object to Texas's argument that simply giving away the new prizes retroactively is unfair. I agree with that actually. But I feel that there must be ways for a player with 10 badges to get the new prizes for the 10th and lower badges. Be that paying a prize or doing a trade or defeating a gym for the second time or any other way someone suggests. But there gotta be some way for that to happen or else it would be unfair to the players that have more badges.

#notbiased.
 
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