VGC 2015: Ask a Simple Question, Get a Simple Answer

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Apologies that this isn't really a "simple" single question or one with a simple answer, but I have to ask it. Some backstory:

I don't play VGC. Neither large tournaments nor the doubles format have ever appealed to me, whereas I adore the discussion that "balance" as an aim brings in OU Singles. But a lot of stand-up guys (not a lot of girls tho :B) I know DO play and are very into it! So well done them, and I take a polite interest.
ANYWAY I'm reading an article by a guy from my "local" league and he posted the teams he faced below, and I roll my eyes, because, well, Lando T + MKanga and a whole bunch of staples are everywhere (plus things like Raichu or Lapras or whatever but I'm already long aware that viability in singles is not the same as viability in doubles).

But then I catch myself. WTF me?? I just did the exact thing I give out to OU naysayers about when they claim OU is too restrictive/boring/overpowered/blah blah blah; the stuff people end up using is NOT the same as what's actually viable. Just because there's a bit of a hivemind does not mean the metagame is any of those things. So I felt bad about dismissing VGC... up to a point.

My questions are as follows (and are entirely opinion-based so "IMO"s are fine):

Is there a discrepancy between what being S, A or D in the viability tiers means between OU Singles and VGC? I.e. are things that are low-tiered in OU roughly as useful as low-tiered mons in VGC, or maybe is there a larger gap between A+ and S in one of those metagames?

How similarly does usage reflect usability in both metagames? Are people more/less prone to using (and/or succeeding with) gimmicks, or perhaps opportunity cost for not using S rank mons in particularly low/high in one?

Leaving aside the functional differences and provided support/popularity/official status of doubles versus singles, is it fair to say that OU singles is a superior metagame than VGC? If yes/no why? (I'm aware stating that may sound snotty. That's not the intent, but logically a metagame built with the idea of balance behind it has to be superior to one where balance isn't really directly supported, right? If not, then what's the point? If this logic is faulty please by all means question it. There is no other reason I phrased it that way.)

I'm really just looking for opinions from people who represent both your average Smogon user, but also people who have an interest in VGC, because I think you guys would have the least biased opinions. I mean, you can definitely play and be interested in a metagame without even liking it, (cough cough OU gen V Weather Wars) so I don't see any problems regarding bias there. Thanks guys :) If this is best asked in another place please tell me where.
1.) Less of a gap. A C-rank 'mon here is going to see itself on more teams than an OU C-rank 'mon.

2.)This is very relative, but I'm going to assume you're talking about the balancing aspect. Now, Doubles is interesting. Due to the fact that any Pokemon can be double-targeted and most 'mons can only target one slot, things naturally balance out quite evenly. In fact, VGC only has one Pokemon that Smogon Doubles doesn't - Mega Salamence, and that's not even S rank here. So by the very nature of Doubles and the VGC banlist, I am willing to say that yes, the VGC metagame is indeed more balanced than OU.

There's also no stall in Doubles.
 
Yes, VGC and OU are nothing alike. The primary reason for this is the shortness of games. In VGC a long game is 10+ turns, this gives preference for immediacy which singles formats lack. Your team needs immediate power, speed, and support. This causes many Pokemon to fill multiple roles, the Rotom formes as both support Pokemon and attackers, Quick Guard Terrakion, et cetera. This immediacy also limits the viability of Pokemon reliant on set up moves. Stall isn't viable in VGC so a predominately defense Pokemon is going to have a harder time forming a niche, however, when they do it is for their ability to support your own team and disrupt your opponent's team. Amoonguss is popular, outside of Spore, in VGC for Rage Powder a disruptive move, and in OU it gets usage for Regenerator. In terms of gaps between viability ranks, there's not really a difference. The criteria for the viability rank maybe a little different, but the range in viability suggested should be about the same.

Outside of a regional level gimmick oriented teams won't succeed in VGC. Pachirisu was on the world champions team, and could be argued to be a gimmicky Pokemon, however the team itself wasn't centered around the gimmick. Instead the team used the gimmick for a surprise support option, these kind of lesser used Pokemon being used to a high level of success isn't really uncommon in either VGC or singles provided the team and player is good.

So OU is built by players to be a competitive format, whatever that means. Being balanced meaning all play styles are equally viable. If this was entirely successful and OU was fully balanced and competitive, then yes it would be the superior format. However, it is important to look past the ideology and at the reality. OU isn't achieving these goals and probably never will. Instead OU is an ever evolving rule set moving from one ban to the next to improve the tier. This is a process which works to an extent, the clearly unhealthy elements of the metagame are removed so the tier becomes less centralized around a single Pokemon. Thus more play styles become viable. But OU isn't balanced. VGC on the other hand is just a rule set, nothing more. VGC isn't built around an ideology, you play it because the rules are official. This means the metagame can become centralized around broken Pokemon **Mega Kangaskhan**, however, this doesn't hinder the enjoyment which can be derived from VGC. Nor does it limit the skill level of players. Be careful by what you mean by superior.

Bringing six but choosing four, increases the value of team preview and thereby your overall match-up dependency. Certain Pokemon, the teams mega evolution, will be weighted most highly. But when bringing four, the four Pokemon which you bring should be able to beat all six of your opponents Pokemon in some capacity. You shouldn't bring the four which will beat the four that you think your opponent will bring.
 

Ace Emerald

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Do you think the "Bring 6 pick 4" allows you to distribute the "weight" on each Pokemon in an uneven (read: Appropriate to the Pokemon) way? If pick 6 bring 6 means that every Pokemon is expected to perform equally well in all cases, then in B6P4 perhaps you might use one Pokemon in 90% of your matches and another in only 30%, meaning you only use a weaker/gimmick/niche Pokemon only against teams it will probably perform well against. Does that make them harder to compare? Would evenly distributed teams still be a better idea, or be a better goal in teambuilding? And B6B4 has its own downsides, as it makes games more matchup reliant (an inevitability in the future of OU singles IMO, can't always counter everything) and faster, so stall strategies aren't typically as useful, right?
That's exactly the case. In a 6v6 match, a Pokemon that has a rough match up becomes a liability. In a 4v4 match, you can leave Pokemon behind and they don't affect your match up. Its a bad idea to take this to the extreme, because you need a consistent backbone to the team where, as you put it, the "weight" is distributed equally. However, it gives you the option to use 1 or 2 (max) niche Pokemon that help in a very specific match up or perform a specific function. The effectiveness depends heavily on the team's individual need and the playstyle of the user, but the ability to use niche Pokemon is there and is an effective option in some cases.
 
With the Pentagon Rule in place, do VGC players still do a lot of RNGing in past-gen games in order to have a flawless (or whatever IVs you want) father to hold the Destiny Knot and pass down its IVs? I say "father" since I imagine that the mother (or Ditto) would typically be holding the Everstone.
I would say no because other than rare egg moves and unique balls which you want to use on females, it's redundant. Dittos and Legends would be the only things I worried about in gen 3-5
I haven't RNG'd anything, at all, in Gen 4 or 5 since I bought X the day after it came out. VGC is all Pentagon, and with breeding being amazing in Gen 6 there isn't much need to RNG unless you really, really like running Sucker Punch Golem or EruptTran in the Battle Maison when Global Link is down. Flawless Ditto are all you need most of the time, and people like cannibal have been giving them away for years. Anything else, like Level Ball Noctowl or something, you can generally get quick and easy just asking around for spitbacks. :P
I'm confused here... the Destiny Knot passes down 5 IVs from the parents, but those parents have to have the flawless (or for Hidden Power/whatever) IVs you want the baby to have in the first place. That's why I assumed people still had to RNG parents in previous generation games. I know basically everyone (including myself) has a flawless Ditto, but even it was an RNG in a previous gen, and you can't always use Ditto.
 
I'm confused here... the Destiny Knot passes down 5 IVs from the parents, but those parents have to have the flawless (or for Hidden Power/whatever) IVs you want the baby to have in the first place. That's why I assumed people still had to RNG parents in previous generation games. I know basically everyone (including myself) has a flawless Ditto, but even it was an RNG in a previous gen, and you can't always use Ditto.
tl;dr it's faster to breed for the perfect IVs then to RNG for them. Not to mention that the 3DS has a different way of RNG than the DS, so I don't think people even know how to RNG in gen 6.
 
Q: Is there a good cores thread here? Was looking for one too see which good cores I could use to make a team as well as see if anyone liked a Breloom + Talonflame core.

Also, another question: Which is a good item for a support Talonflame? I'm new to VGC so I don't know which is a good item.

I have some doubles experience, but the item clause and having to pick only 4 'mons are some really interesting rules.
 

Ace Emerald

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I'm confused here... the Destiny Knot passes down 5 IVs from the parents, but those parents have to have the flawless (or for Hidden Power/whatever) IVs you want the baby to have in the first place. That's why I assumed people still had to RNG parents in previous generation games. I know basically everyone (including myself) has a flawless Ditto, but even it was an RNG in a previous gen, and you can't always use Ditto.
You actually can always use Ditto. And before we had Poke Transfer, people bred flawless Pokemon by chance using friend safari Pokemon (guaranteed 2 flawless stats). Breeders accumulated more and more flawless stats over generations until reaching flawless.

Q: Is there a good cores thread here? Was looking for one too see which good cores I could use to make a team as well as see if anyone liked a Breloom + Talonflame core.

Also, another question: Which is a good item for a support Talonflame? I'm new to VGC so I don't know which is a good item.

I have some doubles experience, but the item clause and having to pick only 4 'mons are some really interesting rules.
There isn't actually a good one at the moment. I've seen Focus Sash Talonflame used effectively, and I actually like defensive Rocky Helmet Talonflame. It lives hits no one expects and deals nasty chip damage.
 
I'm confused here... the Destiny Knot passes down 5 IVs from the parents, but those parents have to have the flawless (or for Hidden Power/whatever) IVs you want the baby to have in the first place. That's why I assumed people still had to RNG parents in previous generation games. I know basically everyone (including myself) has a flawless Ditto, but even it was an RNG in a previous gen, and you can't always use Ditto.
Before bank there were friend safaris which had ditto in some normal type safaris that had guaranteed 2 IVs and with the new breeding mechanics once bank came out breeding with 5 IV dittos became more efficient with the new mechanics. And thanks to flamebody stacking with O-powers hatching eggs is rather quick as well. Not to mention with oval charm you get eggs at a higher rate.
tl;dr In the time it'd take you to rng abuse something in gen 4-5 and then transfer it to gen 6 I can breed and hatch the same thing
 
Q: Is there a good cores thread here? Was looking for one too see which good cores I could use to make a team as well as see if anyone liked a Breloom + Talonflame core.

Also, another question: Which is a good item for a support Talonflame? I'm new to VGC so I don't know which is a good item.

I have some doubles experience, but the item clause and having to pick only 4 'mons are some really interesting rules.
No we don't have a VGC cores thread but its a good idea. It's open for anyone to start if they want. Loom + Talonflame is fine, you probably want Quick Guard on Talonflame to protect Breloom from Fake Out, then you can Spore something for free. You'll also want something to hit Zapdos and a special attacker for Intimidates, I think Scarf Gardevoir or Mega Gardevoir would work pretty well. Hits Scrafty, Gyarados, Hitmontop, and Salamence.

Support Talonflame can run any of Sharp Beak, Sitrus Berry, or Passho Berry. I don't really reccommend Charti because Rock Slide from Landorus-T can still OHKO you unless you have a good amount of defense...
 
No we don't have a VGC cores thread but its a good idea. It's open for anyone to start if they want. Loom + Talonflame is fine, you probably want Quick Guard on Talonflame to protect Breloom from Fake Out, then you can Spore something for free. You'll also want something to hit Zapdos and a special attacker for Intimidates, I think Scarf Gardevoir or Mega Gardevoir would work pretty well. Hits Scrafty, Gyarados, Hitmontop, and Salamence.

Support Talonflame can run any of Sharp Beak, Sitrus Berry, or Passho Berry. I don't really reccommend Charti because Rock Slide from Landorus-T can still OHKO you unless you have a good amount of defense...
Could I start one then? IMO, it could be really useful, specially with VGC bein a difficult metagame.
The Talonflame I'm running has a lot of defense investment so it actually lives a rock slide from adamant Landorus (unless it crits), so I'll give it a look. Managing to set up tailwind against Terrakion and Landorus more than once or just WoW then can be really useful. It pairs really well with Breloom because of the fast spores and Brelooms good offensive pressure right from the start, it does have flaws, ofc, but VGC is a really match up reliant metagame anyway.
I'll give a look into Gardevoir, my team has Rotom-W, MegaGross, Mamoswine and Hydreigon, so a fairy type could be really useful.
Thanks everyone for the answers.
 
Could I start one then? IMO, it could be really useful, specially with VGC bein a difficult metagame.
The Talonflame I'm running has a lot of defense investment so it actually lives a rock slide from adamant Landorus (unless it crits), so I'll give it a look. Managing to set up tailwind against Terrakion and Landorus more than once or just WoW then can be really useful. It pairs really well with Breloom because of the fast spores and Brelooms good offensive pressure right from the start, it does have flaws, ofc, but VGC is a really match up reliant metagame anyway.
I'll give a look into Gardevoir, my team has Rotom-W, MegaGross, Mamoswine and Hydreigon, so a fairy type could be really useful.
Thanks everyone for the answers.
If you want i cant guarantee someone with a higher position doesnt eventually take it over though
 
With the Pentagon Rule, is it not possible to have Hidden Ability genies? From what I see, the only way to get them is from Dream Radar, which only connects to B2/W2.
 

Ace Emerald

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With the Pentagon Rule, is it not possible to have Hidden Ability genies? From what I see, the only way to get them is from Dream Radar, which only connects to B2/W2.
That's correct, Hidden Ability genies are currently not usable :(
 
So guys, serious question: How do you counter PerishTrap Mega gengar + Gothitelle + Perish Song politeod/Azumarill? I have been 4-0'd by every PerishTrap team I've ever seen. There is no counter to Perish Song (except... what, Soundproof? Lets be serious). And this isn't a "One team I've only seen once", this is "50% of every Japanese player I see runs this and I run into a lot of Japanese teams at 5am Toyko time". Prankster Taunt is the only thing I can think of. Gengar just has to Perish Song on a predicted Protect, Protect, and switch. Can't touch the damn thing. Can't Protect against Perish Song. Can't exactly run a mono-Ghost team either. Just brute force the Gengar to death on the one turn it uses Perish Song?
 

Ace Emerald

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So guys, serious question: How do you counter PerishTrap Mega gengar + Gothitelle + Perish Song politeod/Azumarill? I have been 4-0'd by every PerishTrap team I've ever seen. There is no counter to Perish Song (except... what, Soundproof? Lets be serious). And this isn't a "One team I've only seen once", this is "50% of every Japanese player I see runs this and I run into a lot of Japanese teams at 5am Toyko time". Prankster Taunt is the only thing I can think of. Gengar just has to Perish Song on a predicted Protect, Protect, and switch. Can't touch the damn thing. Can't Protect against Perish Song. Can't exactly run a mono-Ghost team either. Just brute force the Gengar to death on the one turn it uses Perish Song?
Taunt is an amazing counter, Talonflame can check it. Speed control can tame Gengar, its pretty frail. Gothitelle needs to be overpowered with strong SE moves.
 
Taunt is an amazing counter, Talonflame can check it. Speed control can tame Gengar, its pretty frail. Gothitelle needs to be overpowered with strong SE moves.
So, Talonflame / Tornadus.
Kinda makes me run 3 Flying types, which is defensively bad. Guess I don't have much choice though, its marginally better than an auto-lose on 1/3 of my matchups.
Gothitelle, I have Aegislash, maybe I could run a strong Dark move. Char-Y hits like a truck though.
But really, I kinda just wish Perish Song was blocked by Crafty Shield; lo and behold, its the one damn status move it does not block.
Soundproof is limited to Electrode, Mr. Mime, Exploud, Bastiodon, Obamasnow, and Bouffalant. Afrobull being the only thing on the list that isn't utter shit, but something about running a Soundproof Payback Bouffalant seems just a tad much. It also doesn't work.
252+ Atk Life Orb Bouffalant Payback (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mega Gengar: 133-159 (79.6 - 95.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And Perish Song + Imprision is only available on Mismagius. Which loses to Gengar anyway / is not viable.
Ok, well, guess I'll get back to SRing Tornadus. Wish me luck.

Edit: 31/28/26/31/31/31 Hasty HP Ice Tornadus. Not bad at all.
 
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Honestly, the way I deal with it is to just keep applying offensive pressure - I know that Cybertron posted a match vs. a Perish Trap team where he almost wins due to the amount of pressure he put on the opponent (he lost because the opponent's Azumarill pulled off a triple protect).
 
Can someone help me, I'm trying to make a team with Garchomp, and I was thinking what other pokemons i could use, i alredy tought about sylveon/Venussaur(M)/Gengar/Suicune/ Lando-T/Talonflame, so i wanted to know what is prob the best set for Garchomp and if i should or not use Garchomp(M).
 
Can someone help me, I'm trying to make a team with Garchomp, and I was thinking what other pokemons i could use, i alredy tought about sylveon/Venussaur(M)/Gengar/Suicune/ Lando-T/Talonflame, so i wanted to know what is prob the best set for Garchomp and if i should or not use Garchomp(M).
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/garchomp.3528239/ <- check the Team Options :P

MegaChompy would need the full support of a Tailwind+Sand team. imo. So I'd avoid that route.
I had success with Char-Y + Garchomp, it was the beating heart of my VGC14 team. Wide Guard is worrysome, but the sheer power is something to behold. I may go back to that...
Rotom-W also avoids EQ / handles Lando-T / eats WoW with minimal care. Fairy types, Togekiss in particular, are bad for Chompy; this is where Char-Y, MegaGross, Gengar, Mega Venusaur, or Aegislash fit in. Gyarados is kind of an asshole, as Intimidated Rock Slide doesn't do much, so Zapdos can help on that, provides Tailwind and a Ground immune. Same with Thundurus, just uses T-Wave over Tailwind. Cresselia also cockblocks its life and commonly carries Ice coverage; as does Suicune. Cress is managable with Aegislash, Suicune again falls pray to Thundy/Zapdos. Greninja is a massive threat to Chompy, but is rather uncommon; Talonflame eats it alive anyway, and Thundy can just Dick Wave it to the point of not existing.
Bulky Water and Fairy types can handle faster Dragons (MegaMence, Latios, lolNoivern) and Ice moves (<insert Water type not named Rotom-W/Seismitoad here>, Nidoqueen). Sylveon, a good Steel is all you really need. Or Muk!
 
What is the standard set for non-Mega Swampert with Wide Guard?
They typically are special with dual STAB in Earth Power and Scald or Hydro Pump, Ice Beam for coverage, and Wide Guard. Spreads invest in varying amounts of bulk and Special Attack.
 
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