yeah I could see it being good for taking out serps main answers like those 2. I could see it being viable for that reason especially when ur taking out a huge threat like aero which is destroying the tier right now.
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np: UU Stage 2.1 - You Are Invited
- Thread starter Sam
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So i got Reqs for the vote and heres what i found after 130 or so matches...
1. Serp is difficult to straight up counter (obvious no need for explanation).
2. Has to cripple or let it a teammate handle one of its checks (ie crobat, mega aero)
3. It can choose what it is walled by (hp ice vs fire means the difference between av escavalier vs. Crobat/m aggron, etc..)
4. If you over prrpare for serp, its not so much an issue if you carry at least 2 checks imo (ie av entei, crobat, amoongus, etc..).
5. I think people have become too reliant on crobat in the UU meta (checking hera, taunt, defog, serp, shao, etc..) and serp has the tools to cripple bat or risk serp letting it boost and possibly KOing a different mon. If we focus on other checks (which are just as viable imo like m beedrill, av entei, scarf hera, scarf darm, amoongus, sp def roserade, etc..) its less about straight up countering rather than checking.
Im a little more on the fence now than i was before. I think Glare is what allows it to beat its normal checks (scarf fire, crobat), but we cant fault paralysis to being broken (t wave stun spore?). After a certain point, i didnt see the as many serps on the ladder, since i think everybody has been overpreparing with multiple checks. I ran support bat and amoongus and didnt face too many issues.
1. Serp is difficult to straight up counter (obvious no need for explanation).
2. Has to cripple or let it a teammate handle one of its checks (ie crobat, mega aero)
3. It can choose what it is walled by (hp ice vs fire means the difference between av escavalier vs. Crobat/m aggron, etc..)
4. If you over prrpare for serp, its not so much an issue if you carry at least 2 checks imo (ie av entei, crobat, amoongus, etc..).
5. I think people have become too reliant on crobat in the UU meta (checking hera, taunt, defog, serp, shao, etc..) and serp has the tools to cripple bat or risk serp letting it boost and possibly KOing a different mon. If we focus on other checks (which are just as viable imo like m beedrill, av entei, scarf hera, scarf darm, amoongus, sp def roserade, etc..) its less about straight up countering rather than checking.
Im a little more on the fence now than i was before. I think Glare is what allows it to beat its normal checks (scarf fire, crobat), but we cant fault paralysis to being broken (t wave stun spore?). After a certain point, i didnt see the as many serps on the ladder, since i think everybody has been overpreparing with multiple checks. I ran support bat and amoongus and didnt face too many issues.
Hey guys, I dunno how niche this would be, but what about Sp.Def Bronzong against Serp?
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Timid Serperior Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 252 SpDef Sassy Bronzong: 153-182 (45.2 - 53.8%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers
( Up to 43% w/ rocks, 76.6% if Serp runs Modest)
0 Atk 0 Spd (0 Spd IV) Relaxed Bronzong Gyro Ball vs 4 HP / 0 Def Timid Serperior: 144-171 (49.3 - 58.5%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO
( Down to 22.3% chance to 2HKO if Serp runs Modest)
Wish I had time to get reqs (or ladder at all, for that matter.)
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Timid Serperior Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 252 SpDef Sassy Bronzong: 153-182 (45.2 - 53.8%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers
( Up to 43% w/ rocks, 76.6% if Serp runs Modest)
0 Atk 0 Spd (0 Spd IV) Relaxed Bronzong Gyro Ball vs 4 HP / 0 Def Timid Serperior: 144-171 (49.3 - 58.5%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO
( Down to 22.3% chance to 2HKO if Serp runs Modest)
Wish I had time to get reqs (or ladder at all, for that matter.)
Looks to me that Serp can just Leaf Storm on the switch, Leaf Storm again as it takes a Gyro Ball, then KO Zong with +4 HP Fire. After 3 LO recoils + Gyro Ball damage, Serp will be left at between 20.6% (3 more attacks left in it) or 11.3% (2 more attacks left in it). This is all assuming Bronzong is healthy and has not been softened up by Dragon- / Flying-types, the former of which it will take more damage from now that it runs SpD. Even then, HP Fire Serperior seems like the kind of Serperior that would carry Taunt + Synthesis, aka the one that dismantles the stall teams Bronzong finds itself on.
Leaf Storm 3HKOs.
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Bronzong: 125-147 (36.9 - 43.4%) -- 99.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+4 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Bronzong: 187-220 (55.3 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Bronzong's nice and set-up fodder.
after playing on the ladder and getting my reqs, ive figured out somethings about serp
it has a hard time switch in. srsly, its not that easy. it's frail, it can come as a revenge killer sometimes, but if the opponent hasanything something faster or some kind of priority, serp wont be staying too long. i mean, we have some hard threats on the meta rn: M-Aero, Salamence, RP Tyrantrum, DD Gatr, Doublade to name a few. and old threats too.
but after his counters are eliminated ofc it will bring rampage, after all Contrary is these borderline broken abilities like Prankster and Serene Grace.
about the meta, now every team carry some ice coverage move on bulky waters, not only for Serp, but also for those dragon, rocks, grass around. the meta btw is pretty offensive rn (not my kind). i was enjoying the post-rachi meta, some good mons was beginning to appear viable.
idk, even if Serp isn't broken per se, i feels as if he's presence might be unhealthy as Jirachi presence certainly was.
it has a hard time switch in. srsly, its not that easy. it's frail, it can come as a revenge killer sometimes, but if the opponent has
but after his counters are eliminated ofc it will bring rampage, after all Contrary is these borderline broken abilities like Prankster and Serene Grace.
about the meta, now every team carry some ice coverage move on bulky waters, not only for Serp, but also for those dragon, rocks, grass around. the meta btw is pretty offensive rn (not my kind). i was enjoying the post-rachi meta, some good mons was beginning to appear viable.
idk, even if Serp isn't broken per se, i feels as if he's presence might be unhealthy as Jirachi presence certainly was.
OK it's been a while since I played UU for real but I actually get reqs so I'm throwing my 2 cents about Serp:
- Can't really switch safe: his best bet would be water and ground attacks but Scald burns are annoying and ground users usually have a coverage move that can hit him hard (ie ice punch megapert, ice beam/sw nidos, knock off krook)
- Forces specific checks, but those checks are most of the time excellent or at least viable mons (Crobat/Forry/Aggron/Rotom-H/Amoong/Rose/Goodra etc.)
- Can potentially break stall with Taunt and offense with Glare
- Lefties Giga Drain also works if you try to beat him with hazards/burn/psn
- Has a lot of common revenge killers (ScarfHera, MegaBeedrill/Aero/Pidgeot, ScarfChand/Darmanitan) so he can't really straightforward sweep
All in all I feel he's not broken by himself (Glare is freaking amazing though), in a sense that you can't simply sac a mon, send him safely and instawin (well hey Salamence can do this): it's still amazing as a lategame cleaner, but it needs loads of support to pass through his checks and to keep him healthy so I ended up seeing a lot dedicated teams. Most of the cores were WishClericFlorges/Vap to keep Serp healthy + Forry/Tenta to spin and hazards + random wallbreakers.
That said, I don't really like the way the meta could shape with him officially around so I'm more tempted to be on the pro-ban side for the time being.
- Can't really switch safe: his best bet would be water and ground attacks but Scald burns are annoying and ground users usually have a coverage move that can hit him hard (ie ice punch megapert, ice beam/sw nidos, knock off krook)
- Forces specific checks, but those checks are most of the time excellent or at least viable mons (Crobat/Forry/Aggron/Rotom-H/Amoong/Rose/Goodra etc.)
- Can potentially break stall with Taunt and offense with Glare
- Lefties Giga Drain also works if you try to beat him with hazards/burn/psn
- Has a lot of common revenge killers (ScarfHera, MegaBeedrill/Aero/Pidgeot, ScarfChand/Darmanitan) so he can't really straightforward sweep
All in all I feel he's not broken by himself (Glare is freaking amazing though), in a sense that you can't simply sac a mon, send him safely and instawin (well hey Salamence can do this): it's still amazing as a lategame cleaner, but it needs loads of support to pass through his checks and to keep him healthy so I ended up seeing a lot dedicated teams. Most of the cores were WishClericFlorges/Vap to keep Serp healthy + Forry/Tenta to spin and hazards + random wallbreakers.
That said, I don't really like the way the meta could shape with him officially around so I'm more tempted to be on the pro-ban side for the time being.
I realize this could very well be cherry picking, but Tyrantrum, Feraligatr, and Doublade all have to be set-up before Serperior comes in (or at least boost on the switch) to be a threat to him.Hell, Salamence can hardly afford to get a free switch-in on unboosted Serperior. What is your point?
People keep talking about how March 2015 UU is Bulky Water: The Tier and then in the same breath say that Serperior has a hard time switching in. Do none of you realize how much those two statements clash?
Not trying to rip on you or anything, but out of the 180 suspect test games I have played, I've seen one Scarf Hera. Though all the others are relatively common.
First post and first voting! I'll prove that I got the reqs on the other thread, though my account in Showdown doesn't have this same nickname.
I don't have much to add to the discussion. I find Serprior easy to switch in to certain mons and start the boosting massacre. It easy and straighforward, and also has some movepool variants that make it unpredictable, but all good. With good team support it's nearly unstoppable.
So, I vote for the ban
I don't have much to add to the discussion. I find Serprior easy to switch in to certain mons and start the boosting massacre. It easy and straighforward, and also has some movepool variants that make it unpredictable, but all good. With good team support it's nearly unstoppable.
So, I vote for the ban
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uususpecttest-215454680
Here's a game I only won thanks to multiple Leaf Storm misses. I don't know if I could have played that any better, but I'm leaning towards "No." Still gotta get a few more games in before I get reqs, but Jesus I need this thing gone.
Here's a game I only won thanks to multiple Leaf Storm misses. I don't know if I could have played that any better, but I'm leaning towards "No." Still gotta get a few more games in before I get reqs, but Jesus I need this thing gone.
Can i ask why you had crobat stay in and taunt mega aero? Its one thing to stay in and predict the roost hone claws or sr,but you didnt have any type of mega aero check or counter on your team tbh outside of bulky gatr (?) And scarf moxie mence. I wouldve sacked chandelure to stone edge and go for the DD or Agility when Gatr switches back in. Go for the crunch or ice punch after gatr boosts on Serp switch in. Lose gatr and come in with mence for an easy clean sweep. But, thats just me...
It's an Adamant 252/252 Agility Gatr. I think I panicked and thought "He's gonna try and set up Rocks!" even though two turns earlier I saw Azelf try to set them up. I knew setting up before Empoleon and Machamp were weakened was futile, anyway, but at the same time I knew Gatr would scare Aero out. I don't know.
Yeah, but you did have beedrill as a fail safe (althougb it does get beat by sub serp which is what they had).
Its hard comparing serp though. Its a wallbreaker and sweeper where it can easily clean up once its checks have been eliminated. I dont see how this can be different from other late game sweepers. It does have checks, but Glare cripples most of those checks (scarf ape and darm, crobat). We cant go and say Glare is broken when whe t wave, spore and stun spore are on lesser broken mons. Is it the combination of a high bp boosting move plus glare that pushes it over the edge?
Serp isnt guaranteed to sweep every game, but i think it dkes restrict team building where sp def grass types, scarfed fire types and quad resists are needed. To be honest i think CroCune restricts teams a lot more and it has the bulk to set up with ease and can be difficult to RK even with an appropriate check due to its bulk. Its very similar to zygarde and coil boosting. if you didnt have something for those teo mons, youre almost guaranteed to get swept
The issue lies in the fact that Serperior has the option to cripple its switch ins with Glare since the Boosting component and the Attacking component of its kit are consolidated into a single moveslot. The reason other things such as Absol or whatever don't run TWave is because they can't afford to give up a slot for utility. Serperior can.
just got reqs and gonna post some thoughts :
The main thing I feel about Serperior, that is pushing it over the top is Glare, which IMO is a staple move on any non stallbreaking set (Taunt|Synthesis).
Serperior is really crazy in the meta as it IS currently a bulky water dominating meta, with the likes of Suicune and Pert.
With Serperior in the meta, how can running such dominating forces(the bulky waters) can turn into liabilities, can be not broken meta?
The snake user, when faced with a faster "counter" in the team preview (bat, beedrill, aero, etc) and a bulky water at hand, it faces with a crucial choice between Leaf Storming or Glaring. When choosing to Glare, it must be punished! Therefore, if those bulky waters have any means of punishing the snake...
Suicune - Sub 3 attack and SubCM are all getting more popular with threats like Mence(IB) and heliolisk(sub).
Swampert - having such glaring weakness to grass, only focus sash can save it from snake so if snake stays, swampert loses viability. It just dies to any grass attack, there's no discussion about trying to live a hit but ofcourse Ice Beam (or Ice Punch on mega) is a viable option already on top of rocks|eq|scald.
Vaporeon - I tried to fit in Ice Beam but it just wants so many others moves in Scald,Wish,Protect AND Baton Pass which is too good to pass on.
Milotic - I know it's considered bad, but Snake loses 1v1 if it switches in on due to Toxic and Ice Beam.
Empoleon - thought less of bulky water in this department, as it is hit neutrally by grass, but fitting Ice Beam isn't hard. (instead of Roar, or having another rock setter)
In fact, Serp is really hard to switch in. Any good Serp performance I've seen was on either HO or serp was (one of) the win con., and something else had to die in order to let Serp come in safely. That right there is a dangerous meta imo, when you should consider carefully if to KO a mon and with whom for the fear of Serp coming in safely.
I don't think Stall has any problems really, other than having to fit into their already tight slots, a counter for serp but counters to exist! (Roserade/Amoonguss)
Outside of glare, I think if any 'mon could receive +2 move and a contrary and be not broken it's serperior. I mean, other than those, it has all the bad qualities :
- Grass is arguably the worst mon-attacking typing with vast resists in Flying, Fire, Poison, Bug, Dragon, Steel and with just two SE types. (Rock types are almost non-present and Aero is faster and takes neutral damage from grass)
- Snake's coverage options are shit, outside of Dragon Pulse, which is useful against one out of six of it's type resists, it has to resort to Hidden Power.
- low initial SpAtt (yeah, mitigated by high BP of LeafStorm...)
However :
- Glare, unlike other paralyzing moves, has 100% accuracy, which is huge imo.
- the ability to choose HP (fire or ice mostly) mean Serp is much more unpredictable and that can decide matches.
- Although lacking the ability to boost own speed (besides opposing sticky web), it sports such a high and defining speed tier which really a select few naturally outspeed it.
Sorry for the incoherent rumble. I just wanted to post some thought from either side.
I'm currently slightly leaning towards non-ban but I'm really swinging right now.
The main thing I feel about Serperior, that is pushing it over the top is Glare, which IMO is a staple move on any non stallbreaking set (Taunt|Synthesis).
Serperior is really crazy in the meta as it IS currently a bulky water dominating meta, with the likes of Suicune and Pert.
With Serperior in the meta, how can running such dominating forces(the bulky waters) can turn into liabilities, can be not broken meta?
The snake user, when faced with a faster "counter" in the team preview (bat, beedrill, aero, etc) and a bulky water at hand, it faces with a crucial choice between Leaf Storming or Glaring. When choosing to Glare, it must be punished! Therefore, if those bulky waters have any means of punishing the snake...
Suicune - Sub 3 attack and SubCM are all getting more popular with threats like Mence(IB) and heliolisk(sub).
Swampert - having such glaring weakness to grass, only focus sash can save it from snake so if snake stays, swampert loses viability. It just dies to any grass attack, there's no discussion about trying to live a hit but ofcourse Ice Beam (or Ice Punch on mega) is a viable option already on top of rocks|eq|scald.
Vaporeon - I tried to fit in Ice Beam but it just wants so many others moves in Scald,Wish,Protect AND Baton Pass which is too good to pass on.
Milotic - I know it's considered bad, but Snake loses 1v1 if it switches in on due to Toxic and Ice Beam.
Empoleon - thought less of bulky water in this department, as it is hit neutrally by grass, but fitting Ice Beam isn't hard. (instead of Roar, or having another rock setter)
In fact, Serp is really hard to switch in. Any good Serp performance I've seen was on either HO or serp was (one of) the win con., and something else had to die in order to let Serp come in safely. That right there is a dangerous meta imo, when you should consider carefully if to KO a mon and with whom for the fear of Serp coming in safely.
I don't think Stall has any problems really, other than having to fit into their already tight slots, a counter for serp but counters to exist! (Roserade/Amoonguss)
Outside of glare, I think if any 'mon could receive +2 move and a contrary and be not broken it's serperior. I mean, other than those, it has all the bad qualities :
- Grass is arguably the worst mon-attacking typing with vast resists in Flying, Fire, Poison, Bug, Dragon, Steel and with just two SE types. (Rock types are almost non-present and Aero is faster and takes neutral damage from grass)
- Snake's coverage options are shit, outside of Dragon Pulse, which is useful against one out of six of it's type resists, it has to resort to Hidden Power.
- low initial SpAtt (yeah, mitigated by high BP of LeafStorm...)
However :
- Glare, unlike other paralyzing moves, has 100% accuracy, which is huge imo.
- the ability to choose HP (fire or ice mostly) mean Serp is much more unpredictable and that can decide matches.
- Although lacking the ability to boost own speed (besides opposing sticky web), it sports such a high and defining speed tier which really a select few naturally outspeed it.
Sorry for the incoherent rumble. I just wanted to post some thought from either side.
I'm currently slightly leaning towards non-ban but I'm really swinging right now.
I always thought he was more of a Venomoth-type broken. Yeah, you know what he's probably gonna do, but good fucking luck stopping him.
That being said I'm pretty sure the first guy to switch his Crobat in on Glare shit his pants, and Serperior does have a big enough movepool to make you guess, so I don't know how that makes it a joke.
EDIT: Tornadus was broken because it never died and checked the metagame with basically impunity. You had a handful of Pokemon that could even hurt it reliably and it just switched out and came back in healthier.
That being said I'm pretty sure the first guy to switch his Crobat in on Glare shit his pants, and Serperior does have a big enough movepool to make you guess, so I don't know how that makes it a joke.
EDIT: Tornadus was broken because it never died and checked the metagame with basically impunity. You had a handful of Pokemon that could even hurt it reliably and it just switched out and came back in healthier.
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Although I agree with you that Serp isn't exactly what I'd call "versatile", I'm going to play devil's advocate and say that you're ignoring what people think is so versatile about it: its disruptive capabilities in Glare, Knock Off, and Taunt, among other things, which makes it harder to switch into than just "fuck Leaf Storm." (Think similar to Tornadus-T, though obviously not quite that ludicrous.)
I think it was mentioned earlier in the thread that what makes Serperior overwhelming is the fact that Leaf Storm is both a boosting move and a very powerful STAB attack. This gives you the room for glare and coverage moves.
+2 for almost any move is really strong, even if it's a weak move like Hidden Power, especially when you don't have to predict a switch to get to +2.
+2 for almost any move is really strong, even if it's a weak move like Hidden Power, especially when you don't have to predict a switch to get to +2.
The only thing 'fucking pathetic' and 'a fucking joke' is that a post like this was made by a former tier leader.
If some badgeless random was to make this same post they would likely get called out instantly and possibly infracted.
I don't exactly share Sleepless' views, but the least you could do is offer him a counter-argument irrespective of whether or not it seems obvious or self-evident to yourself, as he actually put some thought into his post.
Agreed. Sleepless puts effort into expressing his point, and then kokoloko just shoots him down without a second thought...
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Okay, it looked cool to get Victini back, but I've picked some things up from the forum and I agree with the fact that one switch-in on it in Mence (which is not even a switch in because glaciate or whatever that move's called) makes it not broken. Also I wasn't talking about "some niche-ass thing". What's wrong with some creativity? You can have creative sets that work.
Sleepless im not sure if i agree that grass is a bad typing. Immune to spore and resists to grass and water is good. If the tier is so heavily bulky water (only suicune and swampert are the only ones coming to mind that are top UU threats, unless im missing something?), thrn wouldnt a grass type be that much better, and not disadvantageous?
But, theres a difference betweeen versatile and picking what walls a mon. Serp is of the latter, where hp determines what it cant bust through, wbich a teammate will have to take care of. Knowing what walls you is a huge advantage in teambuilding and gives you great oversight.
Now, versatile is a mon that has that unpredictability aspect, all of which are viable. Victini was both a nuke with few switch ins and versatile due to its fantastic movepool and ability to go mixed with its high bp coverage (thunder, GK, focus blast, bolt strike). You literally could not switch in unless you had phys def mega amphy.
Glare is a great spammable option on serp, but are status moves broken because they allow a check to be incapacitated? If amoongus puts uses spore on a cleric not named blissey, then spreading status team wide (burn, para, etc..) combined with taunt pressure doesnt allow the opponent to recover. Granted amoongus wont be incapacitating and sweeping, but the principle is the same. Glare has good coverage with only electric types being immune, but statusing a check (crobat since everybody keeps bringing it up) it doesnt even necessarily mean insta win. Not even remotely sincd serp is forced out fearing the BB.
The key difference from Victini and Serp is the force out. After VC, tini was very vulnerable due to the def drops and the switch in could pursuit trap, but this didnt deter tini from nuking left and right and the pursuit user could only come in after something was KOd. Serp is forced out literally because it cannot bust through crobat unboosted. Same thing for amoongus, roserade and AV entei, some of the best defensive checks. Offenzive checks can come in after the KO; scarf darm, ape, crobat (again), entei (again), noivern, mega pidgdot, mega beedrill, mega aero, etc..glare and boosted LS hurts the offensive checks, but they should almost never be switched into serp. But, tbats no different than other sweepers or wallbreakers (cb hera, sd ape, np azelf, nidos, curselax, etc...
But, theres a difference betweeen versatile and picking what walls a mon. Serp is of the latter, where hp determines what it cant bust through, wbich a teammate will have to take care of. Knowing what walls you is a huge advantage in teambuilding and gives you great oversight.
Now, versatile is a mon that has that unpredictability aspect, all of which are viable. Victini was both a nuke with few switch ins and versatile due to its fantastic movepool and ability to go mixed with its high bp coverage (thunder, GK, focus blast, bolt strike). You literally could not switch in unless you had phys def mega amphy.
Glare is a great spammable option on serp, but are status moves broken because they allow a check to be incapacitated? If amoongus puts uses spore on a cleric not named blissey, then spreading status team wide (burn, para, etc..) combined with taunt pressure doesnt allow the opponent to recover. Granted amoongus wont be incapacitating and sweeping, but the principle is the same. Glare has good coverage with only electric types being immune, but statusing a check (crobat since everybody keeps bringing it up) it doesnt even necessarily mean insta win. Not even remotely sincd serp is forced out fearing the BB.
The key difference from Victini and Serp is the force out. After VC, tini was very vulnerable due to the def drops and the switch in could pursuit trap, but this didnt deter tini from nuking left and right and the pursuit user could only come in after something was KOd. Serp is forced out literally because it cannot bust through crobat unboosted. Same thing for amoongus, roserade and AV entei, some of the best defensive checks. Offenzive checks can come in after the KO; scarf darm, ape, crobat (again), entei (again), noivern, mega pidgdot, mega beedrill, mega aero, etc..glare and boosted LS hurts the offensive checks, but they should almost never be switched into serp. But, tbats no different than other sweepers or wallbreakers (cb hera, sd ape, np azelf, nidos, curselax, etc...
- Status