the normal typing really limits its niche. there is just a lot less demand for it defensively so it's hard to justify using it and it really only finds its place on certain semistalls. ttar shitting on it doesn't help either especially in this gen. B to low B+ is kind of a gray area but i don't see the necessity of changing it after comparing it to some of the other B's.
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Gen 4 DPP OU Viability Rankings V2
- Thread starter Jirachee
- Start date
- Status
Clefable: I think it's pretty great, but its problem is that offense is at an all - time high in this meta (ridiculously common even in SPL), and Clef struggles against pretty much every offensive mainstay: TTar, Tran, Jira, Loom etc. (A bunch of these may be threatened by one of Clef's moves but beat it by virtue of being faster and threatening heavy damage). Clefable's main niche in this meta is being an assured wincon against stall and some semi - stalls (along with sweeping several balances). However it does just that, as badabing said it has close to zero value defensively, and it does need a decent amount of support to work out as most of the A-S rank mons mess it up one way or another. It's high usage in tours is because it is probably the most reliable Stallbreaker around, which is handy at the high level because stall/semi - stall is known to be the preferred playstyle by many players at that level.
B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that cannot sweep through or wall a significant portion of the metagame, but can fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche.
Clefable fits this description well: It fulfills the niche of stall breaking, but does not sweep against teams with fast, powerful mons, and even may struggle against stall mons such as ScarfTar and Jirachi. So in the end, B Rank is optimum for it.
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B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that cannot sweep through or wall a significant portion of the metagame, but can fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche.
Clefable fits this description well: It fulfills the niche of stall breaking, but does not sweep against teams with fast, powerful mons, and even may struggle against stall mons such as ScarfTar and Jirachi. So in the end, B Rank is optimum for it.
I'm a terribad DPPer, for all I know everything I said is wrong. If so please forgive me
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Alright, so BKC and I reviewed the rankings and decided to update them!
Changes:
: A+ => S
Zapdos controls games and is one of the most threatening offensive threats around. Very little is able to directly switch into Choice Specs Zapdos without taking a ton of damage (even offensive Tyranitar will take a solid 45% from Thunderbolt.) It has a huge influence on teambuilding and limits it to an extent. It also has a few other sets that will do different things (for example SubRoost, Agility, or just the standard 3 Attacks Roost set) which makes it more unpredictable. Its typing allows it to check quite a few dangerous threats (for example Scizor), meaning that it can run defensive sets brilliantly.
: A => A+
Scizor is probably the most dangerous late-game sweeper in the tier thanks to the Bulky SD set. Not much can stop it from sweeping after its very few checks have been worn down because it has a very easy time setting up. Most of its checks have flaws that can be exploited in some ways (Rotom is pursuitable, Heatran has no recovery, and Zapdos / Gyarados are SR weak) making it easy to open up late game sweeps. Scizor's Choice Scarf set also is quite dangerous, grabbing momentum easily for offensive teams and shutting down threats that could otherwise be troublesome for them (like Starmie.)
: A => A-
Suicune is not as good as it used to be. There is a lot more things running around with Super Effective STAB attacks that will KO it after little residual damage (Specs Zapdos Thunderbolt, Celebi Leaf Storm, Shaymin Seed Flare, not to mention these guys actually are faster) making it less of a threat to offense. In a metagame where Tyranitar is everywhere, not having recovery really hurts for something prone to every hazard and Sand, especially since its bulk is its main selling point. Suicune also has to compete with Starmie for a spot, and Starmie's precious Rapid Spin proves to be more useful very often.
: A => A-
While Kingdra can find many opportunities to set up, they re not as rewarding as they could be for another comparable set up sweeper, for example Gyarados. Kingdra's Waterfall is incredibly weak and forces it to lock itself into Outrage more than it wants to, which is not optimal in a metagame where Steels and revenge killers are so dominant. Kingdra's Rain Dance set are great but alone not enough to justify staying in A rank.
: B+ => A-
B+ was a pretty low rank for Machamp. Sash Machamp is one of the most dangerous leads in the metagame. Its non-lead sets are pretty good too and are unique in what they do (the other Fighting types in OU, Breloom and Lucario, play a lot differently) and combined to the incredible threat of lead sets makes us think it should be above niche(r?) stuff like Nidoqueen and Abomasnow.
: B => B+
Mag has been seeing a lot of usage lately because trapping Steels is very useful. The Custap set has a lot of utility and can often take down or at least severely cripple something else after it has trapped Skarm / Forry / Scizor / whatever. Serving as an emergency check to some stuff is pretty useful too.
: B => B-
Milo is great but its niche is pretty limited. The offensive set in particular has kind of a hard time being justified on teams unless they are very weak to Heatran. Bulky sets have a more limited utility and face a lot of competition from Starmie which is useful in most games thanks to Rapid Spin.
Changes:
Zapdos controls games and is one of the most threatening offensive threats around. Very little is able to directly switch into Choice Specs Zapdos without taking a ton of damage (even offensive Tyranitar will take a solid 45% from Thunderbolt.) It has a huge influence on teambuilding and limits it to an extent. It also has a few other sets that will do different things (for example SubRoost, Agility, or just the standard 3 Attacks Roost set) which makes it more unpredictable. Its typing allows it to check quite a few dangerous threats (for example Scizor), meaning that it can run defensive sets brilliantly.
Scizor is probably the most dangerous late-game sweeper in the tier thanks to the Bulky SD set. Not much can stop it from sweeping after its very few checks have been worn down because it has a very easy time setting up. Most of its checks have flaws that can be exploited in some ways (Rotom is pursuitable, Heatran has no recovery, and Zapdos / Gyarados are SR weak) making it easy to open up late game sweeps. Scizor's Choice Scarf set also is quite dangerous, grabbing momentum easily for offensive teams and shutting down threats that could otherwise be troublesome for them (like Starmie.)
Suicune is not as good as it used to be. There is a lot more things running around with Super Effective STAB attacks that will KO it after little residual damage (Specs Zapdos Thunderbolt, Celebi Leaf Storm, Shaymin Seed Flare, not to mention these guys actually are faster) making it less of a threat to offense. In a metagame where Tyranitar is everywhere, not having recovery really hurts for something prone to every hazard and Sand, especially since its bulk is its main selling point. Suicune also has to compete with Starmie for a spot, and Starmie's precious Rapid Spin proves to be more useful very often.
While Kingdra can find many opportunities to set up, they re not as rewarding as they could be for another comparable set up sweeper, for example Gyarados. Kingdra's Waterfall is incredibly weak and forces it to lock itself into Outrage more than it wants to, which is not optimal in a metagame where Steels and revenge killers are so dominant. Kingdra's Rain Dance set are great but alone not enough to justify staying in A rank.
B+ was a pretty low rank for Machamp. Sash Machamp is one of the most dangerous leads in the metagame. Its non-lead sets are pretty good too and are unique in what they do (the other Fighting types in OU, Breloom and Lucario, play a lot differently) and combined to the incredible threat of lead sets makes us think it should be above niche(r?) stuff like Nidoqueen and Abomasnow.
Mag has been seeing a lot of usage lately because trapping Steels is very useful. The Custap set has a lot of utility and can often take down or at least severely cripple something else after it has trapped Skarm / Forry / Scizor / whatever. Serving as an emergency check to some stuff is pretty useful too.
Milo is great but its niche is pretty limited. The offensive set in particular has kind of a hard time being justified on teams unless they are very weak to Heatran. Bulky sets have a more limited utility and face a lot of competition from Starmie which is useful in most games thanks to Rapid Spin.
The above looks fine. I think Zap has been on the fence for a while between S and A+, but in the current Meta S is probably better. I do kinda dispute a few things though:
Kingdra: Idk how this thing is ranked A-, it has a ton of value in this metagame. As a sweeper I will admit it may not be as straight up threatening as Gyarados but it still is hyper - deadly with its RD or DD sets. Locking into Outrage sucks but equally Kingdra beats up all Steels barring Skarm or a lucky Jirachi. The only thing that reliably revenges it (and only the DD set), is Scarf Flygon, which you really shouldn't be running in the first place. Lastly the quad water+fire resist is handy in taking on threatening mons like ScarfTran, LO Starmie, etc, which can mess up offensive teams lategame. Though it does need some support to clean up a team, it's a great mon and definitely better than A-
Also Infernape to A+, Nape is a top - notch Stallbreaker who if played well shouldn't disappoint. It's particularly threatening as it has no real blanket check: people used to say Starmie stops it straight up, but even if you're BoldMie CBed U-Turns are doing over 50%, while the speed cut means it can GK you straight up into the ground. Ground types are equally vulnerable to Grass Knot, and it also does a decent chunk to Bulky Gyarados (offensive variants are 2HKOed with rocks.). HP Ice or Stone Edge can be used to exert more pressure against Flyers like Gyara/Zap/Nite. Basically it can play around anything with the right move, and most teams will anyways carry something that it easy set-up fodder for it. It also offers some decent defensive value, checking the above mentioned SD Scizor if healthy, while taking out DDTar, SD Luke, Agility Emp with Mac Punch. Though the 4 MSS is obvious, plus it does get worn down pretty easily and gets forced out by anything faster that gets in safely, it is so threatening that that (maybe?) could be ignored. Probably this entire post was misinformed but it's just my two cents worth.
Kingdra: Idk how this thing is ranked A-, it has a ton of value in this metagame. As a sweeper I will admit it may not be as straight up threatening as Gyarados but it still is hyper - deadly with its RD or DD sets. Locking into Outrage sucks but equally Kingdra beats up all Steels barring Skarm or a lucky Jirachi. The only thing that reliably revenges it (and only the DD set), is Scarf Flygon, which you really shouldn't be running in the first place. Lastly the quad water+fire resist is handy in taking on threatening mons like ScarfTran, LO Starmie, etc, which can mess up offensive teams lategame. Though it does need some support to clean up a team, it's a great mon and definitely better than A-
Also Infernape to A+, Nape is a top - notch Stallbreaker who if played well shouldn't disappoint. It's particularly threatening as it has no real blanket check: people used to say Starmie stops it straight up, but even if you're BoldMie CBed U-Turns are doing over 50%, while the speed cut means it can GK you straight up into the ground. Ground types are equally vulnerable to Grass Knot, and it also does a decent chunk to Bulky Gyarados (offensive variants are 2HKOed with rocks.). HP Ice or Stone Edge can be used to exert more pressure against Flyers like Gyara/Zap/Nite. Basically it can play around anything with the right move, and most teams will anyways carry something that it easy set-up fodder for it. It also offers some decent defensive value, checking the above mentioned SD Scizor if healthy, while taking out DDTar, SD Luke, Agility Emp with Mac Punch. Though the 4 MSS is obvious, plus it does get worn down pretty easily and gets forced out by anything faster that gets in safely, it is so threatening that that (maybe?) could be ignored. Probably this entire post was misinformed but it's just my two cents worth.
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Is Forretress really worthy of an A ranking? Given that Forretress commonly runs Payback as its only attack (barring Rapid Spin), it gets destroyed by Breloom, it becomes set-up fodder for DD Tar / Gyarados, and it has a great deal of trouble spinning in a metagame filled with pokemon that are constantly scaring it away. Heatran and Zapdos terrify it, and the evolution of Gen 4 has brought about a lot of Stealth Rockers that no longer fear Forretress - Tyranitar commonly runs Fire Blast, Jirachi runs Fire Punch etc. Given that Forretress has become accustomed to running Special Defense, it even has a limited number of times that it can come into bulkier Stealth Rockers such as Swampert and Hippowdon because their Earthquakes deal almost 30%. It has the ability to spin on Skarmory, but given that Skarmory is generally accompanied by Rotom-a, it isn't even guaranteed that Forretress will be able to do that. Pokemon such as Roserade that can set Toxic Spikes and Spikes will scare away Forretress with the threat of Hidden Power [Fire].
In addition, Forretress is a relatively subpar hazard setter. Yes, there are teams that struggle against Forretress, but as a whole in the current state of the metagame Forretress will struggle to lay multiple layers of Spikes (or Toxic Spikes) while still being able to support the team with Rapid Spin. The prevalance of Bold Starmie also makes it more difficult for Forretress because Payback fails to 2HKO.
I propose that Forretress is moved to A-. There is good reason that Starmie has been used significantly more than Forretress, especially on bulkier teams that appreciate continuous Rapid Spin support.
In addition, Forretress is a relatively subpar hazard setter. Yes, there are teams that struggle against Forretress, but as a whole in the current state of the metagame Forretress will struggle to lay multiple layers of Spikes (or Toxic Spikes) while still being able to support the team with Rapid Spin. The prevalance of Bold Starmie also makes it more difficult for Forretress because Payback fails to 2HKO.
I propose that Forretress is moved to A-. There is good reason that Starmie has been used significantly more than Forretress, especially on bulkier teams that appreciate continuous Rapid Spin support.
The thing with DD Kingdra is that its Waterfalls are incredibly weak and its Outrages don't strike fear in a hell of a lot either. Skarm and Jirachi aren't the only Steels that give it trouble, you can also throw Metagross / Scizor / Bronzong into it without much issue. Hell even Passho Tran doesn't have to be terribly healthy to take a boosted Waterfall, whereas with Gyarados it has to be way higher. And it's not just Steels; bulky dudes like Swampert, Shaymin and Breloom (that not only annoy it but also force it to use Outrage!) make it miserable as well. It lacks the power to be useful more often than not. I will give it that some teams just can't handle it at all but it is not consistent. Getting worn down easily and revenge killed without much sweat after taking some prior damage doesn't help either. Its stats just aren't good enough. Its Rain Dance set is the really scary one, but Tyranitar disrupting it is really obnoxious and Shaymin still fucks with it. RD DD is pretty good though.
Infernape is great, especially with GK actually being a surprising move nowadays and Mach Punch taking out the surging Agility Empoleon, but its inability to switch in on much and the plethora of things that revenge kill it often limit the damage it can do. It is incredibly scary if double switched in aggressively with some good support etc but imo the A+ dudes should be a little more self sufficient. I think A is fine for now.
The above post regarding Forretress could not be more accurate.
Infernape is great, especially with GK actually being a surprising move nowadays and Mach Punch taking out the surging Agility Empoleon, but its inability to switch in on much and the plethora of things that revenge kill it often limit the damage it can do. It is incredibly scary if double switched in aggressively with some good support etc but imo the A+ dudes should be a little more self sufficient. I think A is fine for now.
The above post regarding Forretress could not be more accurate.
Posting on phone so sorry for autocorrect/ugly formatting etc
Shouldn't be A+ a bit more Pokemon? Only 4 isn't a lot and A has like 15. Personally I'd put Gyarados/Lucario/maybe Ape/Hippo/gliscor in A+. I guess that depends hoe you wanna approach these rankings tho.
About Kingdra, yes Gyara is definitely the beter DD user but Kingdra surely has advantages over Gyara and reasons tot stay in A imo:
- easiest starmie weakness fix for HO. Starmie is so bad for HO tot fight against and Kingdra is a really good fix tot check it. Also helps just against all Water types EG Suicune
-its rain dance is really good (all versions) and just beats a lot of HO/offense teams quit easily tbh. It's not that hard tot het Rain Dance going, TTar is the really annoying thing but HPump/Waterfall does so much dmg that it's really risky tot switch straight in so you van definitely play around it. I mean, smth like Azelf / Dnite / Starmie / Scizor / Ape / Celebi is fucked by Kingdra except prio I guess (not rly a good team since I named 6 random mons but still)
-existence of both DD and rain dance Lets you Bluff the other. As DD you van come in on like Skarm and Bluff Rain Dance tot scare it out. Quite good advantage imo
-Specs is also pretty good, not like A worthy by itself but imo with all these things together I think Kingdra is.
Shouldn't be A+ a bit more Pokemon? Only 4 isn't a lot and A has like 15. Personally I'd put Gyarados/Lucario/maybe Ape/Hippo/gliscor in A+. I guess that depends hoe you wanna approach these rankings tho.
About Kingdra, yes Gyara is definitely the beter DD user but Kingdra surely has advantages over Gyara and reasons tot stay in A imo:
- easiest starmie weakness fix for HO. Starmie is so bad for HO tot fight against and Kingdra is a really good fix tot check it. Also helps just against all Water types EG Suicune
-its rain dance is really good (all versions) and just beats a lot of HO/offense teams quit easily tbh. It's not that hard tot het Rain Dance going, TTar is the really annoying thing but HPump/Waterfall does so much dmg that it's really risky tot switch straight in so you van definitely play around it. I mean, smth like Azelf / Dnite / Starmie / Scizor / Ape / Celebi is fucked by Kingdra except prio I guess (not rly a good team since I named 6 random mons but still)
-existence of both DD and rain dance Lets you Bluff the other. As DD you van come in on like Skarm and Bluff Rain Dance tot scare it out. Quite good advantage imo
-Specs is also pretty good, not like A worthy by itself but imo with all these things together I think Kingdra is.
I've been playing DPP for the past few weeks and I've sorta got into it, it's a fun tier :o
heh I feel that Rain Dance in itself makes Kingdra incredibly threatening and while ScarfTar is annoying along with Kingdra's DD set being weak, it's still a great cleaner for offensive teams that also has decent bulk and can check Starmie/tran/choice nape locked into fire move. It's a great cleaner after stuff like Celeb/Shaymin (the former of which often runs a non-bulky lead set that can be worn down easily) has been weakened. I still feel like it's on par in terms of ability to fit onto a team and effectiveness with stuff like Metagross and Shaymin in A. In addition, I feel like Gyara should rise to A+ because it's just so incredibly threatening to teams with the ability to run Taunt + DD, SubDD, All-Out Offensive, AND defensive sets on stall teams which makes it pretty versatile as a threat. It's a great nape/tran check and can also run various ITEMS such as Wacan to screw over Starmie, Lum vs. pesky hazard setters, and so on. It has great coverage with any of Waterfall, Stone Edge, Ice Fang, Earthquake, and Bounce, while providing a solid defensive backbone which i feel is enough for a rise.
heh I feel that Rain Dance in itself makes Kingdra incredibly threatening and while ScarfTar is annoying along with Kingdra's DD set being weak, it's still a great cleaner for offensive teams that also has decent bulk and can check Starmie/tran/choice nape locked into fire move. It's a great cleaner after stuff like Celeb/Shaymin (the former of which often runs a non-bulky lead set that can be worn down easily) has been weakened. I still feel like it's on par in terms of ability to fit onto a team and effectiveness with stuff like Metagross and Shaymin in A. In addition, I feel like Gyara should rise to A+ because it's just so incredibly threatening to teams with the ability to run Taunt + DD, SubDD, All-Out Offensive, AND defensive sets on stall teams which makes it pretty versatile as a threat. It's a great nape/tran check and can also run various ITEMS such as Wacan to screw over Starmie, Lum vs. pesky hazard setters, and so on. It has great coverage with any of Waterfall, Stone Edge, Ice Fang, Earthquake, and Bounce, while providing a solid defensive backbone which i feel is enough for a rise.
(Sorry for double post but phone)
Also looked at rankings and soms mons that might be worth changing:
Vaporeon: honestly though, I haven't used or seen this in a very long time. Does someone still use this and van make a case for it?
Jolteon > Raikou? I feel Raikou is at least as good as Jolteon. Jolteon rly only does SubPass beter. Anything else and I prefer Raikou (cm, scarf, lead and usually specs)
Is smeargle really as bad as the other mons in D? I Jean it's nog really that good but it's somewhat viable unlike the others. There are some shit mons in C too so it deserves C imo.
Froslass /Hitmontop could move up one rank, they're prob the best mons in C+ en and Froslass is solid at setting up Spikes turn 1 of you want it tot and Top is imo a good spinner for full on stall. Though Top idk, C+ could be fine for it as well I guess. Just sondering what other people think
Also looked at rankings and soms mons that might be worth changing:
Vaporeon: honestly though, I haven't used or seen this in a very long time. Does someone still use this and van make a case for it?
Jolteon > Raikou? I feel Raikou is at least as good as Jolteon. Jolteon rly only does SubPass beter. Anything else and I prefer Raikou (cm, scarf, lead and usually specs)
Is smeargle really as bad as the other mons in D? I Jean it's nog really that good but it's somewhat viable unlike the others. There are some shit mons in C too so it deserves C imo.
Froslass /Hitmontop could move up one rank, they're prob the best mons in C+ en and Froslass is solid at setting up Spikes turn 1 of you want it tot and Top is imo a good spinner for full on stall. Though Top idk, C+ could be fine for it as well I guess. Just sondering what other people think
If anything, Vaporeon deserves a decent ranking for being able to check the likes of Heatran, Infernape, and Gyarados which are 3 very top tier threats. Wish support allows Vaporeon to heal not only itself but its teammates, and Protect scouting against commonly Choice-locked user such as Rotom-a allows the user to control momentum. I think one of the reasons Vaporeon isn't seeing much use is because people tend to overlook it and use Starmie as an attempt to check the "big 3" that i've listed above (even though relying on a Pursuit weak comparably frail crutch like Starmie will lead to a lot of trouble when left to check such beasts).
Hitmontop is decent just because of Intimidate and being a Rapid Spinner that can actually spin on the increasingly popular Stealth Rock Tyranitar. Only problem is that Hitmontop should really be paired with a Pursuit user like Lum Tar or Shadow Ball/Pursuit Spiritomb because Rotom-a can still be annoying.
While we're on the subject of Pokemon that should be B-, I'd like to propose Slowking. Although its hampered by a Pursuit weakness, Slowking is able to wall variants of Infernape, switch into Heatran, fails to be 2HKO'd by Mix Jirachi sets (unlike Slowbro), and has the Special Defense to be able to sponge stuff like Mix Dragonite and CM Suicune (if you run Toxic) and also provides a switch into Rain Dance Kingdra. With a little Defense investment you can take 2 +1 Dragon Danced Earthquakes from Gyarados as well. Although it is Pursuit weak as I mentioned above, you can run Fire Blast for Scizor (also keeps Breloom at bay) and the threat of Toxic/Surf can somewhat keep Scarf Tyranitar at bay (the added Defense used for Gyarados also allows Slowking to sponge a Scarf Tar Crunch if you mispredict). Opinions?
Hitmontop is decent just because of Intimidate and being a Rapid Spinner that can actually spin on the increasingly popular Stealth Rock Tyranitar. Only problem is that Hitmontop should really be paired with a Pursuit user like Lum Tar or Shadow Ball/Pursuit Spiritomb because Rotom-a can still be annoying.
While we're on the subject of Pokemon that should be B-, I'd like to propose Slowking. Although its hampered by a Pursuit weakness, Slowking is able to wall variants of Infernape, switch into Heatran, fails to be 2HKO'd by Mix Jirachi sets (unlike Slowbro), and has the Special Defense to be able to sponge stuff like Mix Dragonite and CM Suicune (if you run Toxic) and also provides a switch into Rain Dance Kingdra. With a little Defense investment you can take 2 +1 Dragon Danced Earthquakes from Gyarados as well. Although it is Pursuit weak as I mentioned above, you can run Fire Blast for Scizor (also keeps Breloom at bay) and the threat of Toxic/Surf can somewhat keep Scarf Tyranitar at bay (the added Defense used for Gyarados also allows Slowking to sponge a Scarf Tar Crunch if you mispredict). Opinions?
Vappy is sort of like Hippo and WishTect Rachi in that certain offensive teams just cannot break it to save their lives, Infernape / Flygon / Gengar / Kingdra / Scizor kinda things. I think it's fine.
You know how Specs Zap trucks through a lot of teams that rely on Scarftar for Electrics? Just imagine if the Electric in question could actually outspeed Scarftar! Oh wait, Jolteon can. It owns and it can also run some sick Wish sets. Raikou's Scarf set is overrated and I don't think its old SubCM set is taking the meta by storm again anytime soon. I am quite a fan of the CM Shuca variant but I think Jolt is just a bit better overall.
Smeargle is alright, Occa is definitely the better berry on Meta leads atm as Sash on Machamp so that helps a lot.
Froslass is awesome, it plays sort of like an Azelf lead and can definitely move up. I don't like Hitmontop much because I think Donphan is way better thanks to not being affected by sand and its damage output is much higher. Electric immune doesn't hurt either. Top should probably stay.
You know how Specs Zap trucks through a lot of teams that rely on Scarftar for Electrics? Just imagine if the Electric in question could actually outspeed Scarftar! Oh wait, Jolteon can. It owns and it can also run some sick Wish sets. Raikou's Scarf set is overrated and I don't think its old SubCM set is taking the meta by storm again anytime soon. I am quite a fan of the CM Shuca variant but I think Jolt is just a bit better overall.
Smeargle is alright, Occa is definitely the better berry on Meta leads atm as Sash on Machamp so that helps a lot.
Froslass is awesome, it plays sort of like an Azelf lead and can definitely move up. I don't like Hitmontop much because I think Donphan is way better thanks to not being affected by sand and its damage output is much higher. Electric immune doesn't hurt either. Top should probably stay.
252 Atk Life Orb Infernape Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vaporeon: 214-253 (46.1 - 54.5%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
This is why Vaporeon is disappointing. It does not counter Infernape. From there, you better go with another bulky water unless you are really afraid of Gengar. I may be a bit caricatural there, but you get the point.
This is why Vaporeon is disappointing. It does not counter Infernape. From there, you better go with another bulky water unless you are really afraid of Gengar. I may be a bit caricatural there, but you get the point.
I think the real reason it's so damn disappointing is because it is so easily broken down by sand, rocks, status, and spikes. And all of those are real issues since it can switch into a lot of stuff.
Great rankings, I'm especially happy that Machamp was moved up from B.
Is Jolteon really that great? It's one of those guys that gets so much praise from good players and I personally don't even know how it is OU since I almost never see it and I have never seen a game where it has cleaned house. And I probably watch more than I actually play, that is certainly true these days. Dudes basically talk about how it just runs through offense but I'm a more results oriented person and have never witnessed it or even heard of some player kicking ass with a Jolteon
Yeah he outruns Scarftar, but that still isnt doing much. At least Raikou can Aura Sphere and Jolteon's shit defense only makes it more vulnerable to Pursuit.
Great rankings, I'm especially happy that Machamp was moved up from B.
Is Jolteon really that great? It's one of those guys that gets so much praise from good players and I personally don't even know how it is OU since I almost never see it and I have never seen a game where it has cleaned house. And I probably watch more than I actually play, that is certainly true these days. Dudes basically talk about how it just runs through offense but I'm a more results oriented person and have never witnessed it or even heard of some player kicking ass with a Jolteon
Yeah he outruns Scarftar, but that still isnt doing much. At least Raikou can Aura Sphere and Jolteon's shit defense only makes it more vulnerable to Pursuit.
Current talk: Vap is cool for WishPassing+Stopping every Water in the metagame, but doesn't really do a lot more (it stops Gengar+certain variants of MixNape true). B+ is fine
Jolt is nice I guess although the SpecsDos comparison is unwarranted (you kill if you clicked TBolt, die if you didnt). Plus unlike Zap it has poorish coverage and struggles with Grasses (or Pert, Zap can run Heat Wave). Lastly the Zap effect has left teams overpreparing for Electrics (I know I have), so Jolt will struggle to make an impact on those. I will admit though that its support sets (Sub/Wish Passing) are boss. B-B+ works for it
Jolt is nice I guess although the SpecsDos comparison is unwarranted (you kill if you clicked TBolt, die if you didnt). Plus unlike Zap it has poorish coverage and struggles with Grasses (or Pert, Zap can run Heat Wave). Lastly the Zap effect has left teams overpreparing for Electrics (I know I have), so Jolt will struggle to make an impact on those. I will admit though that its support sets (Sub/Wish Passing) are boss. B-B+ works for it
I think 6 S-Rank mons is way too much and we could discuss some of them like Rotom-A. Zapdos deserves to be S-rank because no matter how you prepare for it, it's still amazingly annoying to face and between the subroost, the specs/LO, and the agility sets, you need more than one mon to deal with all of that.
Rotom-a and Heatran are both amazing mons but you can hardly destroy a team with them and pretty much every team is prepared against those 2, Heatran is often your "sr+shuca/passho berry+boom offensive support" and I feel like it's the same godlike pokemon it was at the start of the fuk dragons metagame.
Rotom-A is cool but easily trapped and pretty easy to figure out since it doesn't have a crazy movepool.
I think A+ for both of them is still a really good rank and would balance things out since the S rank should be for some exceptions in the metagame.
I also would like to discuss the place of Lucario in this metagame. I find it pretty hard to pull off a sweep with lucario at the moment, in a metagame filled with Gyarados/fast Rotom-a/ Infernape / Gliscor / Zapdos and stuff, the 4MSS is also really annoying because without crunch you are stopped cold by things like defensive celebi/rotom-a but you can't really pass on Bullet punch since you won't sweep through teams with Scarfttar/Gengar/Aerodactyl LO etc. I find Agiligygross to be more fitting than lucario in most of my teams as a cleaner because the bulk is really significant atm. So the question is : Is Lucario the best Lategame sweeper in OU atm?
Rotom-a and Heatran are both amazing mons but you can hardly destroy a team with them and pretty much every team is prepared against those 2, Heatran is often your "sr+shuca/passho berry+boom offensive support" and I feel like it's the same godlike pokemon it was at the start of the fuk dragons metagame.
Rotom-A is cool but easily trapped and pretty easy to figure out since it doesn't have a crazy movepool.
I think A+ for both of them is still a really good rank and would balance things out since the S rank should be for some exceptions in the metagame.
I also would like to discuss the place of Lucario in this metagame. I find it pretty hard to pull off a sweep with lucario at the moment, in a metagame filled with Gyarados/fast Rotom-a/ Infernape / Gliscor / Zapdos and stuff, the 4MSS is also really annoying because without crunch you are stopped cold by things like defensive celebi/rotom-a but you can't really pass on Bullet punch since you won't sweep through teams with Scarfttar/Gengar/Aerodactyl LO etc. I find Agiligygross to be more fitting than lucario in most of my teams as a cleaner because the bulk is really significant atm. So the question is : Is Lucario the best Lategame sweeper in OU atm?
I don't think having 6 S ranks is too much, especially for a metagame as centralized as DPP OU. All of these Pokemon are very dominant and IMO fit the S rank description and "feel" perfectly.
About Rotom-A: I agree that it is probably the worst Pokemon out of all the S ranks. However I think that it's second only to Tyranitar in terms of how much it defines the metagame. When you ask people "what defines DPP", you'll most likely get the answer "leads and hazards". Rotom-A is an integral part of the second thing. It's the only good Pokemon that's also good at spunblocking. The two other Ghost types you'll see in the metagame just don't really compare in that regard. Gengar is a bad spinblocker because it gets owned by Starmie AND Forretress. Spiritomb is good at spinblocking, but is kind of mediocre in every other aspect. How often do you see a spikestacking team without Rotom these days? Rotom makes those teams the dominant force they are, in my opinion. By the way, I disagree about it being predictable. It can run a ton of surprise moves to screw checks over and support its team. The offensive Sub WoW is my favourite because of how easily it screws with Grounds and Tyranitar. Specs can slam an unsuspecting Hippo too
About Rotom-A: I agree that it is probably the worst Pokemon out of all the S ranks. However I think that it's second only to Tyranitar in terms of how much it defines the metagame. When you ask people "what defines DPP", you'll most likely get the answer "leads and hazards". Rotom-A is an integral part of the second thing. It's the only good Pokemon that's also good at spunblocking. The two other Ghost types you'll see in the metagame just don't really compare in that regard. Gengar is a bad spinblocker because it gets owned by Starmie AND Forretress. Spiritomb is good at spinblocking, but is kind of mediocre in every other aspect. How often do you see a spikestacking team without Rotom these days? Rotom makes those teams the dominant force they are, in my opinion. By the way, I disagree about it being predictable. It can run a ton of surprise moves to screw checks over and support its team. The offensive Sub WoW is my favourite because of how easily it screws with Grounds and Tyranitar. Specs can slam an unsuspecting Hippo too
Vaporeon should drop a rank or two. It doesn't counter enough, but its main issue is that it's too predictable. Taunt bait and it's easy to take advantage of free turns by Wish+Protect.
I thought Hitmontop moved up a long time ago. It should be no lower than B. Remember that it's not all about getting walled by Ghosts, it provides a guaranteed Rapid Spin, that's its main niche. It's also bulky as hell.
Lucario is A+, if not S. Tyranitar is an automatic opening and you're forced to predict on Swords Dance, Close Combat, or coverage moves. Busts mid/late-games open after minimal preparation.
I thought Hitmontop moved up a long time ago. It should be no lower than B. Remember that it's not all about getting walled by Ghosts, it provides a guaranteed Rapid Spin, that's its main niche. It's also bulky as hell.
Lucario is A+, if not S. Tyranitar is an automatic opening and you're forced to predict on Swords Dance, Close Combat, or coverage moves. Busts mid/late-games open after minimal preparation.
Sorry for late reply. I don't know, I guess I understand the comparison in playstyle w/ Hippo and WishTect Rachi but from my experience it is nowhere near as good. It is a lot easier to wear down with residual damage and such, it can't really switch in on Infernape either (see Vinc's post). +2 LO Bug Bite from Scizor OHKOes, Gengar beats you with Thunderbolt, Flygon beats you if it's CB, Mixed I believe 2HKOes with Draco Meteor + SR + Outrage or something of sorts, or if you're somewhat worn down with Earthquake (ok you usually beat Mixed tbf, I gotta say that is something I haven't considered and makes it seem better for balance than I originally thought). Kingdra, DD beats you unless you have Roar. I mean, Vaporeon all kinda beats them, but I don't feel like an offense team needs an anti-Vap mon to break it even. Just a strong set. Protect is also really predictable and exploitable unfortunately. Though now I gotta try to make a Vappy balanced team, maybe it's better than I thought, but I've never really had problems facing it (maybe it's the greatest with Toxic Spikes support though).
Eh, Jolteon, I don't think the Specs Zapdos comparison is 100% fair, Zapdos has more resistances and way more bulk so it can actually switch in on things. Outrunning Scarf Tar is pretty cool, I gotta admit. I have never seen a Wish Jolteon to be honest. SubPass is pretty cool though. I just feel Raikou has more advantage while Jolteon only has one crucial one (the speed). Raikou has better movepool and bulk. To me, they are roughly equal so I feel like they should be ranked equally at least.
Smeargle isn't great but it's ok. I just feel like it works sometimes and it does pay off when it works so it definitely isn't as bad as the other mons in the same rank. Agreeing with Froslass obviously, it's the shit.
As for Top vs Donphan, I have used both on stall and they both have their advantages. Top has Intimidate (huge), Fighting typing which is still solid, better bulk overall. However relooking at the rankings I agree Top can stay (but I wouldn't disagtree with B- either), just wanted to spark some discussion and wanted to see what other people thought.
Anyways, I guess I'll make some "official" nomations or something, the others (Vap, Raikou) could be discussed later too. I don't think too many people will disagree with these anyways:
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: Same as Aerodactyl, but easier to take care off.
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: If it's Iron Head it's a really bad matchup, if it isn't but it's something like SR / Psychic / Thunder(bolt) / Icy Wind / Energy Ball / etc. you have a decent enough matchup.
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: Sash is very common now which means Spore -> SR - > Spikes can actually work unless you're unlucky with sleep turns.
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: I don't see Lum much anymore and you outspeed, so this is now a good matchup.
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: You'll probably Sleep Dragonite and get SR up, no Spikes, but that's still not bad.
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: You are faster so you can Spore and then SR ánd Spikes. Great matchup imo.
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: Sometimes faster, sometimes not. If you are faster, it's great. If you are slower, still ok. If you are slower and it's Magma Storm, it's annoying.
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: Weird matchup, really depends on the Tyranitar set.
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: Ehh it's ok, you can Spore to SR but they might U-turn to something that can take a sleep and KO you.
And I somehow just noticed that Torterra's still ranked and is above D. I don't think I ever saw it on ladder, ever.
Raise Porygon-Z to C+ because it's better than everything in both D and C.
Raise Porygon-Z to C+ because it's better than everything in both D and C.
has anyone used blaziken in OU.......ever? I'd drop it down to D. There's 0 reason to use this over infernape, so the only time i can imagine you would ever use it is if you're using both to try and eliminate counters, but 80 speed is just so slow....it's going to be naturally checked by a bunch of stuff that is already outspeeding the other scary stuff around this speed mark. It seems more than just inferior to infernape; it just seems bad. I'd probably use magmortar before I use blaziken so I can at least outspeed and smack dnite/gyara and tbolt a starmie.
Gastrodon probably deserves a rank somewhere (maybe B or B-). Nice check to choice users like jira/rotom while being immune to trick while still countering a bunch of relevant stuff. It's a good mon and not fully outclassed by quag.
Also forre A rank? Cmon.......forre is nowhere near as good anything else in A
Gastrodon probably deserves a rank somewhere (maybe B or B-). Nice check to choice users like jira/rotom while being immune to trick while still countering a bunch of relevant stuff. It's a good mon and not fully outclassed by quag.
Also forre A rank? Cmon.......forre is nowhere near as good anything else in A
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I personally haven't used Blaziken but afaik the only somewhat usable set is Agility, in which the low Speed isn't as much as an issue. Also I think D rank is only for OU Pokémon that shouldn't be OU, so it'd be C- or unranked.
Also Gastrodon sounds interesting, though B is definitely too high for it imo. With Swampert, Quagsire, Milotic, Suicune, etc. I don't really see if it has enough advantages. I guess it checks Fire-types + Electric-types in one? It can't really deal with Tyranitar and such like Swampert because of its low defense. It could probably get C+ though. Do you have some replays?
suicune and pert don't have recovery, so that's the obvious advantage. Milotic, well, the elec immune is huge. The best comparison is quag.
It's a little bulkier specially than quag, and probably close enough physically. The extra s.def can come in handy......
252 SpA Choice Specs Zapdos Hidden Power Flying vs. 212 HP / 44+ SpD Gastrodon: 169-201 (40.6 - 48.3%)
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 212 HP / 44+ SpD Gastrodon: 172-204 (41.3 - 49%)
No water absorb does kind of suck, but trick immune is actually pretty decent when you're hard walling the 2 most common trickers in OU. It's a trade off. No replays on me, sorry, but I used it a few years ago and it was pretty decent. Distinct enough from quag to get a placement IMO. C+ would be fine.
It's a little bulkier specially than quag, and probably close enough physically. The extra s.def can come in handy......
252 SpA Choice Specs Zapdos Hidden Power Flying vs. 212 HP / 44+ SpD Gastrodon: 169-201 (40.6 - 48.3%)
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 212 HP / 44+ SpD Gastrodon: 172-204 (41.3 - 49%)
No water absorb does kind of suck, but trick immune is actually pretty decent when you're hard walling the 2 most common trickers in OU. It's a trade off. No replays on me, sorry, but I used it a few years ago and it was pretty decent. Distinct enough from quag to get a placement IMO. C+ would be fine.
I agree that gastrodon is awesome. I haven't used sdef/mixed very much but I have used full physdef quite a lot and it is actually hippowdon-esque in how well it handles ddtar, crunch has a 5% chance to 2hko after sr. gastro does other awesome shit reminiscent of big bertha like tank mixtar and mixgon, dudes that certain offense teams rely on to bust open more balanced stuff. in general it 1v1s half the metagame. not having a steel resist bites hippo in the ass sometimes against metagross/lucky jirachi and gastro is an absolute trooper against them, I've seen quite a few hippo get flinched out (usually when bslam parad) but I can't imagine that ever happening to gastro. oh and having more satk than pert when ice beaming gliscor/sometimes dragonite is sooo good. I would even say B- tbh but C+ is more than fair.
Why isn't Weezing in the list? in DPP it had a good niche checking a lot of physical threats, this includes Scizor, Luke, TTar, Gyara, Gliscor without Taunt, Breloom, Flygon...
This mon deserves to be in the list in my opinion, and a B- rank is perfect for him:
B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. Pokemon who are partially outclassed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category.
Weezing CAN be effective in this metagame and has a GREAT defensive niche checking as I said a lot of physycal mons of the tier, But there are a lot of Heatrans that have a free switch-in in his Will-O-Wisp, a lot of special attackers and lacks of reliably recovery (he has to use Pain Split). It's not perfect, but usseful? yes, if u are afraid of things like SD Luke or SD Scizor try this out.
If not B-, atleast C rank, but Weezing is great in his job
This mon deserves to be in the list in my opinion, and a B- rank is perfect for him:
B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. Pokemon who are partially outclassed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category.
Weezing CAN be effective in this metagame and has a GREAT defensive niche checking as I said a lot of physycal mons of the tier, But there are a lot of Heatrans that have a free switch-in in his Will-O-Wisp, a lot of special attackers and lacks of reliably recovery (he has to use Pain Split). It's not perfect, but usseful? yes, if u are afraid of things like SD Luke or SD Scizor try this out.
If not B-, atleast C rank, but Weezing is great in his job
No offensive presence/shit STAB
Heatran bait
Other pokemon can check the stuff it checks
No reliable recovery
Poor stats, especially Sp. Def
He was kind of cool early on when people were still figuring shit out, there was a lesser amount of movesets, and guys like Heracross were OU. By definition he is dangerous but only for the user, not the opponent.
Heatran bait
Other pokemon can check the stuff it checks
No reliable recovery
Poor stats, especially Sp. Def
He was kind of cool early on when people were still figuring shit out, there was a lesser amount of movesets, and guys like Heracross were OU. By definition he is dangerous but only for the user, not the opponent.
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