Balanced Hackmons "Chatter" vote

[The Immortal]

Why
This post in the Suspect Discussion thread summarizes Chatter in Balanced Hackmons.

How
The poll will be closed next Friday, March 13th, at the earliest, with the potential to go through Saturday and Sunday if discussion is heated and or there is a large turnout. If there is a clear winner and more than 50 votes have been cast total, the winning decision will be implemented. If there are less than 50 votes and/or the decisions have a close number of votes, we reserve the right to extend the poll's length until we reach 50, or, in the event that that does not work, choose a winner from the suspect thread based on quality of arguments.

 

[verbatim]

final vote

82 yes

21 no

 

[verbatim]

you may now post

 

[IronicNinja]

Should be banned imo. Luck > Skill in that case. Confusion is OK, but damage with it is just off the marks.

 

[astroboy]

should be banned. luck based, impacts teambuilding, and is a lot more effective than other confusion moves as its unable to be blocked by anything thats doesnt have soundproof. cheap, and annoying af move. ban pls

 

[Pikachuun]

Despite the fact I've been ranting on about it being more annoying than broken (which is still kinda true, it is annoying) I voted ban. The reason being is that in this metagame anything that has a free move slot can utilize the move to decent enough effect. It also means whatever you put it on is a Shedinja check without its ability being useless in most other scenarios (Mold Breaker to get around Flash Fire is one of the scenarios in which it's useful). There's a reason Chatter's on a 3rd of all Mega-Rayquaza on high ladder and Gale Wings is the 2nd-most used ability on said Pokemon (this also holds true in low ladder + mid ladder, but it's not as dominant). Some people have even run Chatter Kyogre-Primal to decent success, and even Aerilate Mega-Rayquaza can switch its coverage move for Chatter to simply hax past its counters.

 

[CactusCacti]

Should've stayed chatot exclusive, got out of hand too fast so even I am voting for ban.

 

[hi nevermind]

A move that inflicts Confusion at a 100% rate is already bad enough. To see it abused by offensively powerful Pokemon such as Mega Rayquaza is even worse; not to mention that it's now being used on Pokemon such as Primal Kyogre (as previously mentioned) and even Shedinja. When that Shedinja escapes your Mold Breaker Pursuit, you just can't help but think that Chatter might be a little unfair.

 

[Rumors]

I voted ban, because it is a move that reliably devolves matches into RNG flusterclucks, far, far more so than any other move that induces confusion. And it's effective on near anything that can spare a moveslot for it, Imposters and Normalize + Entrainment users being maybe the only notable exceptions. Not to mention, it has just enough power to be useful as a sweeping move on top of its RNG shenanigans. Doesn't help that the hardest hitting user of it is Mega-Ray, who has beyond impressive offensive stats.

 

[I like donkeys]

Let's analyze the pros and cons of chatter:

Pros:
-it has a decent base power, which can allow the Pokemon to sweep with chatter
-has no natural immunities
-100% confusion chance
-goes through substitute and magic bounce - originally the best way to prevent confusion and status in general
-pretty much 0 opportunity cost for using it if the Pokemon has a free space for it
-one of the most powerful Pokemon in the tier (Mega Rayquaza) gains STAB on it
-essentially guarantees the opponent will only move 50% of the time, allowing for easy setup, and is even capable of haxing past potential checks/counters
-checks Shedinja, and is not a gimmicky means of doing so
-it's flying typing has good coverage, hitting most Pokemon for neutral damage
-gets +1 priority thanks to gale wings
-while it's not that amazing, the Pokemon can use mold-breaker so it can use chatter on soundproofers/shield dusters
-along with not moving, confusion will also do extra chip damage to the opponent, and could potentially kill themselves without doing anything
-confusion is passed via baton pass
-the mere existence of this move restricts teambuilding somewhat, sometimes forcing people to run gimmicky abilities such as soundproof, and even shield dust
-despite having 50% average chance of not moving, every now and then you will hit yourself 3 times or more in a row

Cons:
-likewise, despite having a 50% to hit yourself, every now and then you will break through confusion 3 or more times in a row
-Pokemon with soundproof are immune to chatter, which is a reasonably common ability in BH
-it's base power is decent, but not that great
-unlike regular status, confusion is cured by simply switching out, although this isn't that great because the opponent can simply spam chatter
-lum berry is a fairly common item in BH, and using chatter would be a waste of a turn aside from wasting their lum berry
I can't think of other cons, chatter doesn't really have many cons to begin with tbh

That list of pros is much larger than the cons section. for the reasons stated above, along with the fact that chatter is uncompetitive af, I find chatter to be unhealthy for the metagame and thus should be banned.

 

[nu nu X]

A very, VERY annoying attack. While it isn't all that powerful it can get to be surprisingly strong if you boost it. Not only that, but it has guaranteed confusion and is 100% accurate. Gale Wings users can take advantage of all of these properties, so I def say BAN.

 

[asdfghjklohhnhn]

why tf should it be banned there are ways to counter such as prankster, any move with priority

 

[hi nevermind]

why tf should it be banned there are ways to counter such as prankster, any move with priority

Huge power is counterable, just run Fur Coat or Imposter or a faster Pokemon with Huge Power. Wonder Guard is counterable, just run Mold Breaker or status moves or an ability-cancelling move. Shadow Tag is counterable, just run Shed Shell or any move that switches the user out. AssistDon is counterable, run Fur Coat with an item that blocks Trick or even a faster Assist Team with a good move against Primal Groudon.

Anything is counterable, but it can be unreasonable, as is the case with the above examples and, in my opinion, Chatter.

 

[Lcass4919]

why tf should it be banned there are ways to counter such as prankster, any move with priority

i promised myself i wouldn't post on bh suspects anymore, but i must ask. how do prankster and priority counter chatter...? i get priority checks some chatter users. but i fail to see how priority and prankster could stop..say...primal kyogre or groudon from chattering.

 

[Piccolo Daimao]

why tf should it be banned there are ways to counter such as prankster, any move with priority

Neither of those moves counter Chatter. They barely check them. What can Prankster do? Use Substitute? Chatter is sound based so that's useless. Use Destiny Bond? I'm not sure what you're saying Prankster can do in this situation.

Also, priority isn't a very good reason to not ban it. Firstly, Gale Wings from a faster mon will outspeed any +1 Priority moves (such as Prankster moves), and Fake Out/Extreme Speed/Shadow Sneak/Bullet Punch/etc wouldn't work if the Chatter user is behind a sub.

I voted Ban, and I'll add my reasoning in tomorrow when I can think more clearly.

 

[Ransei]

It's weird how chatter works when a Pokemon uses it then when people imposter the Pokemon, chatter doesn't confuse leaving a bigger advantage to the opponent.

^ That plus the fact that it's a sound move and it goes through subs is basically the true reason why it probably should be banned. With all these bans, people will try to find something else easy to spam and win with so be aware of that. I know you all might probably know this but eh, some people probably don't so I'm just typing this here.

 

[I wuv you]

It's weird how chatter works when a Pokemon uses it then when people imposter the Pokemon, chatter doesn't confuse leaving a bigger advantage to the opponent.

That's because confusion is a status and imposter doesn't copy status

 

[Sebberball]

i say ban chatter, when people use chatter it loves a huge disadvantage to pokemon, unless they have a lum berry, ive seen people run gale wings chatter pokemon, giving people absolutely NO chance of landing a hit from the confusion, and as soon ask they switch or are unconfused, BOOM, death and confusion please ban only shitlords use chatter to get to 1200, and you need a confusion counter to do anything...

 

[EV]

Just a reminder, this is a suspect discussion about Chatter. Please stay on topic.

 

[Halliday]

57 - 13 thank god

 

[hi nevermind]

I'm actually very interested in how people are able to justify the use of Chatter and call it fair... Would anyone against the Chatter ban be willing to explain?

 

[Kit Kasai]

There really is no "real" reason to keep Chatter in the game. I can imagine shit like "anyone can use it" and "it's a 50 50 chance for both the opponent and the user" but the former is just a shitty argument and the latter is basically condoning hax. I'm not against banning Chatter (hell I'm glad it's going away finally). The only somewhat reasonable concern I can think of a slippery slope argument regarding the uncompetitiveness of hax. If we ban Chatter solely because of hax, what do we do about other forms of hax, like Teeter Dance, Dynamic Punch, etc. I know people have voiced arguments around the area of "Chatter goes through subs and is not blocked by Magic Bounce or any type immunity, so it's the most 'reliable' form of hax" but that's really completely arbitrary to draw the line at "Chatter is uncompetitive enough to warrant a ban and everything else is okay". Still a pretty dumb argument but hey I tried
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[DinaIsha]

Well, of course. Magic Bounce is a widely used strategy in BH. And Chatters goes past it.

I voted for a ban, naturally. I don't want it banned just because of the Move itself, but the fact that it can be used by bulky AF stuff like PH Kyogre. Beating a PH Kyogre is a hard enough. Put in a reliable way to confuse the opponent and you're making it highly uncompetitive.

And nothing can wall it. Or rather there's no planning on how to wall it. Soundproof mons are beaten by coverage backed by Tail Glow.

 

[I like donkeys]

There really is no "real" reason to keep Chatter in the game. I can imagine shit like "anyone can use it" and "it's a 50 50 chance for both the opponent and the user" but the former is just a shitty argument and the latter is basically condoning hax. I'm not against banning Chatter (hell I'm glad it's going away finally). The only somewhat reasonable concern I can think of a slippery slope argument regarding the uncompetitiveness of hax. If we ban Chatter solely because of hax, what do we do about other forms of hax, like Teeter Dance, Dynamic Punch, etc. I know people have voiced arguments around the area of "Chatter goes through subs and is not blocked by Magic Bounce or any type immunity, so it's the most 'reliable' form of hax" but that's really completely arbitrary to draw the line at "Chatter is uncompetitive enough to warrant a ban and everything else is okay". Still a pretty dumb argument but hey I tried
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

The reason for the chatters ban is much more than simply hax, but I won't go into it because everyone else in the thread (and other threads) have put up good evidence of why chatter is so good. Dynamic punch in particular HAS to run no guard for it to be viable, and is immune to a pretty common type being ghost, it can't even check Shedinja! While teeter dance does go through subs like chatter, it doesn't do any damage and is hard-walled by magic bounce and taunt (although taunt isn't very common in BH i find). Chatter has the perfect combination of various things that make it a great move.

 

[Chloe]

Ok I get that it has many advantages (damage + 100% confusion, goes through sub, gale wings use), but for the people arguing that it should be banned because of luck, I have to disagree.

If we banned everything because of luck:
- Confusion in general would be banned
- Paralysis : banned
- Attract : banned
- Critical hits : banned
- Every move would always hit
- Secondary Effects of moves : banned
- Speed ties : wouldn't happen
- the list goes on

I voted for no ban. I believe it's a good move, but it's not good enough to be banned. I've never really had a problem with it and I don't run soundproof, own tempo, shield dust e.t.c.