Gen 6 ORAS Ubers Viability Ranking Thread

[DracoMaster Dab]

I don't think metagross should move up as it has severe 4mss as it wants rock slide/eq/zen headbutt/grass knot/meteor mash/bullet punch/ice punch/pursuit.No matter what u run ur walled by something nasty and as MS mentioned it also has a degree of opportunity cost due to mence being such a beast and also because there are steel types that fulfill it's roles better such as mega Scizor who has the added niche of checking gengar and checking ekiller.I think regular sab is decent as most deo-s run skill swap to beat mega sab and magic coat isn't a common sight so sab is a fantastic anti lead it's also one of the best Ekiller checks and also check other SD arc formes by the virtue of will-o-wisp and foul play and doesn't get out sped and destroyed by them due to prankster and prankster will-o-wisp plus taunt is extremely annoying.Sure,the dominance of Primal Don hurts it but it doesn't like taking repeated foul plays and also another benefit with regular sab is that not only does it fulfill most of the roles of mega sab(checking Ekiller for example) it also allows u to run another mega preferably mega croissant.Just my thoughts :].

 

[QueenOfHax]

Mega Metagross has no reason to run Zen Headbutt in ubers since fighting and poison types are extremely rare. It has to run Meteor Mash for STAB, Earthquake for Primal Groudon, Ice Punch for Mega Salamence and Thunder Punch for Ho-oh and Primal Kyogre. This is the only moveset it should be running in ubers.
Even though it still gets walled by the likes of Ferrothorn, Lugia and Giratina, it's better to be forced out by those passive walls rather than offensive threats such as PDon and Ho-oh.
Overall it's rather ineffective, requires massive team support and has a hefty opportunity cost, so if anything Mega Metagross should drop to C rank - it shouldn't be in the same rank as Giratina-A and Scolipede.

 

[Spyro Chris]

...and Thunder Punch for Ho-oh and Primal Kyogre. This is the only moveset it should be running in ubers.

Rock Slide is a lot better for Ho-Oh, and there's no real need to have Metagross as your offensive check for Primal Kyogre. There are other mons (see Latias) who can check Primal Ogre better than Thunder Punch Metagross.

 

[AM]

Excuse my ignorance for anything I ask or am concerned with as I generally watch from the side lines and haven't really invested in the tier since last year.

May I ask what's going on with C rank right now? It looks extremely messy with all the Arceus forms in there and makes it look like you just put whatever niche Arceus that was used in SPL in there to justify its use. I get maybe some of them in there but glancing at them makes me feel like the comparison between all of them is pretty arbitrary to say they are of all equal value. For example why is Arceus Fire equal in viability to Arceus Psychic with a good reasoning as to why they are there as opposed to a higher or lower rank? I'm trying to find the logic as to why Smeargle and Whimsicott are there as well I don't know how the ranking team makes a measurement of their placement and at what point you say "Oh this is a C rank threat by virtue of comparison and contrasting" but they seem a bit off to myself when you look at everything else occupying that rank.

May I ask why P-Ogre is in A+ and not S-? I guess the Latis are some of the best checks to it in the grand scheme of things but there's a lot of P-Ogre weak teams from what I've seen and seems like it's one of those things that's easily A+ or S- depending on whom you ask. I guess someone should clarify that for me for transparency sake.

Also why is Mega Scizor in A-? If it's on the grounds for simply being just a Xerneas check or something really important then that makes sense but I don't see how it's equal in viability to M-Diancie the Deos that occupy that rank.

 

[Aberforth]

I'd actually argue that Diancie should be ranked below scizor. Scizor can defog, pursuit trap the latis and gengar, recover and provide utility, be a xerneas check and be threatening after a swords dance due to priority bullet punch, as well as being able to grab momentum with u-turn on the switch in to things like Primal Groudon and Ho-Oh. Diancie blocks hazards, and dies to most of the hazard setters in the tier, and acts as a decent ho-oh check or a decent darkrai check. In the context of ubers, I find Scizor better than Diancie.

Those Arceus are in C rank because they are not poor enough to be on the same level as arceus-bug, but they are also not good enough to be any higher than C rank. Smeargle is there due to smash and geopass being cancer as ever, as well as being the only viable sticky web user in ubers right now, and whimsicott is there as a remnant of XY ubers, it can use things like priority encore though to stop geoxern once, priority leech seed + substitute is very frustrating sometimes, and taunt is a decent move.

C rank is very cluttered, but it's basically the rank all mons that are uber go, when they're not good enough to shine in the metagame on any more than niche teams, as well as things that have small niches in certain times, like Smeargle and Whimsicott.

Pogre... isn't on the same level as the Latis, Gengar and Ho-oh. There are far more ogre checks than there are ho-oh checks, and ho-oh also breaks all but one or two of them with earthquake, while doubling as a geoxern check, gengar traps and removes any mon you want from the opposing team barring random scarfers and the very few things that outpace it, as well as having huge special attack, and a perish trapping set, and the latis can soft check both primals, are very splashable and very strong with no oppertunity cost, with a much better speed tier and huge special attack from the off, making them hit harder than kyogre, as well as providing very valuable defog support to any team.

In comparison, Pogre can't spam its main attacks due to the tiers best mon, is in a very crowded speed tier, with far more checks, and not hitting as hard while not being the best teammate in the world, in comparison to the other S- ranked mons.

 

[DracoMaster Dab]

about queenofhax's post there are some flaws with the set as metagross really appreciates pursuit as pursuit allows it to trap lati twins which is an extremely useful niche and is one of the few reasons that metagross is even used in ubers.This set also lacks bullet punch which provides invaluable revenge killing abilities also allows it to beat mega diancie without eating a super effective earth power to the face.I dont mean to bash on ur set i just wanted to show how metagross suffers from 4mss as it wants to run all these moves.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

Excuse my ignorance for anything I ask or am concerned with as I generally watch from the side lines and haven't really invested in the tier since last year.

May I ask what's going on with C rank right now? It looks extremely messy with all the Arceus forms in there and makes it look like you just put whatever niche Arceus that was used in SPL in there to justify its use. I get maybe some of them in there but glancing at them makes me feel like the comparison between all of them is pretty arbitrary to say they are of all equal value. For example why is Arceus Fire equal in viability to Arceus Psychic with a good reasoning as to why they are there as opposed to a higher or lower rank? I'm trying to find the logic as to why Smeargle and Whimsicott are there as well I don't know how the ranking team makes a measurement of their placement and at what point you say "Oh this is a C rank threat by virtue of comparison and contrasting" but they seem a bit off to myself when you look at everything else occupying that rank.

May I ask why P-Ogre is in A+ and not S-? I guess the Latis are some of the best checks to it in the grand scheme of things but there's a lot of P-Ogre weak teams from what I've seen and seems like it's one of those things that's easily A+ or S- depending on whom you ask. I guess someone should clarify that for me for transparency sake.

Also why is Mega Scizor in A-? If it's on the grounds for simply being just a Xerneas check or something really important then that makes sense but I don't see how it's equal in viability to M-Diancie the Deos that occupy that rank.

I do think we need to look at C rank systematically and figure out where everything should be place, it is indeed very messy and should be on everyones minds until it's cleared up

I agree with Primal ogre to S-. It has great, great bulk and immense power. It can revenge kill Primal ogre, to some extent. There's not more for me to say, everything else has been mentioned. S- rank

Mega Scizor is kind of hard stopped by Primal Groudon and that alone should be grounds for B+ rank, as of now.

 

[Aberforth]

Xerneas is also stopped by Primal Groudon, Xerneas for B+ rank! And Diancie dies to one hit too. My arguement was less Scizor for staying A- but Scizor being ranked higher than Diancie.

Note, the Xerneas argument is me being satirical, but being hard stopped by groudon is something a lot of mons can claim, and that alone should not be worth dropping to B+, you should look at what else it brings to the table. Klefki hates pdon, and yet it is still A ranked, and scizor can U turn out as I mentioned, gaining momentum.

Pogre isn't that bulky, it lacks very reliable recovery (rest, but that makes you unable to recover for 3 turns), and can revenge kill PDons that it is faster than, while taking 70 or so % from any hit a don is faster than it, which isn't certain unless you are running a lot of speed, in which case you have either very little bulk, or little investment in special attack.

 

[Dilwar]

I think Primal Kyogre is fine where it is. I don't see it in the same league as Ho-oh and Mega Gengar as it's a lot easier to check than those two, and its match up against HO is rather poor, as opposed to Ho-oh for example. Mega Scizor probably should see a drop being deadweight against the most common Pokemon in the tier.

In reply to Pomman, yes Xerneas and Klefki are also stopped by P-Don, but they offer a lot more. P-Don at most is a soft check to Xerneas and with prior damage Xerneas has no problem getting through it with Focus Blast. It, unlike Mega Scizor is also a Pokemon every team should prepare well for. Klefki generally has more utility than Mega Scizor and another downfall for Mega Scizor is the (increased) opportunity cost of a mega, so I can definitely see good reason for Mega Scizor to drop.

 

[DracoMaster Dab]

I think mega zor is very a very cool mon due to it's ability to pursuit latis and gar,checks ekiller,toxics p don and has access to defog.It's also an extremely gud check to xern without HP fire due to the sheer power of bullet punch.It's also one of the few hard counters to diancie as it takes nothing from diancie's moves except the rare HP fire(which no one uses). The only flaws it has is being bait to two of the biggest threats in the meta in: p don and HO-oh also mence to a certain degree(refresh variants particularly).speaking about mence the opportunity cost of not using mence is just :[.I think mega zor is fine where it is as it's still a pretty darn gud mon just that the meta becoming p don,HO-oh and mence centric is just nasty for it.

 

[Prinz]

Agree on leaving POgre where it currently is, Kyogre is very strong against slow stuff but easy to revenge-kill otherwise, also no reliable recovery move is a bit meh, in my eyes it's just a mon really strong if you manage to switch it into slow stuff it force out, but otherwise it isn't doing much (pdon being on the most part of the teams make things a bit annoying for Kyogre too, ofc).

About Scizor idk, by me it's just a not very useful mon to have with all these PDons and Ho-Ohs around, guess it checks cool stuff like Xern and Diancie but the opportunity cost is p damn huge and in most cases you just better run another mega (pursuiting Lati Twins is another good niche to have, but thats not like Tyranitar can't do that well as well)

"a pretty darn gud mon" is definitely not the definition of Mega Scizor now imo, also forgot to say that people tend to use Arceus formes / Lati Twins as their defoggers, and Tyranitar beats Lati Twins too, so the only good niche Scizor has atm is checking Xern imo (poisonin' Mence doesn't mean much imo, as most Mences run Refresh anyways), and since there are other Xern checks around (PDon, Klefki, Ho-Oh etc), usually you would use your mega slot for something else instead of using Mega Scizor.

tl;dr: the tier is actually not really nice to Mega Scizor with all these PDons and Ho-Ohs hangin' around and its niches aren't good enough to use it instead of another mega (salamence im lookin' at u), therefore I believe that it deserves to drop from A- to B+.

 

[Fireburn]

After realizing that C-Rank was indeed a bloated carcass (thanks AM) I decided to fix some things up:

Changes:

Arceus-Fire: C -> D
Arceus-Flying: C -> C-
Victini: C- -> Unranked
Terrakion: C- -> Unranked
Bronzong: C+ -> Unranked
Mega Mawile: C -> C-

Reasoning:

Arceus-Fire: Harsh as it may be, I dropped this to D because there is literally no good moveset to run on this thing. CM/Judge/Thunder is walled by PDon and Latis, CM/Judge/EP is walled by Mence/Latis/POgre/Ho-Oh, CM 3-Attacks can't check Xerneas because of no Recover. This thing just has the worst case of 4MSS ever, no matter what you run you're going to get trampled by something really nasty (PDon, POgre, Mence, Lati, Ho-Oh, Groundceus, Rockceus, etc), which makes this Pokemon a complete liability on most teams.

Arceus-Flying: Mega Salamence

Victini: Primal Groudon killed this thing's viability, filling its niche as an offensive Xerneas check while also acting as a rock-solid universal check to pretty much every set except Final Gambit. Mega Salamence isn't nice either.

Terrakion: It's best niche was as an SR setter on Web teams, but Web is pretty much unviable in ORAS so there goes that niche.

Bronzong: Rejected for analysis.

Mega Mawile: Primal Groudon walls it pretty hard which makes it difficult to utilize.

Other Proposals:

Shaymin-S: B- -> B - Seems a bit criminal to rank this so low. SubSeed is still annoying, Life Orb sets are also nice as Seed Flare is nasty to a lot of popular things (Primals, Groundy, Rocky, etc) and a Flare SDef down followed by an LO Air Slash or two can mean the death of even solid checks like Ho-Oh. Also it gets Healing Wish which is a very rad move.

Forretress: C -> B- - Custap Berry makes this a lot more usable as a hazard lead for hyper offense teams. It can also notably spin away enemy hazards and prevent Defogs with Explosion which is pretty neat + things the other suicide Spikers can't do as well.

 

[ApplepieFTW]

After realizing that C-Rank was indeed a bloated carcass (thanks AM) I decided to fix some things up:

Changes:

Arceus-Fire: C -> D
Arceus-Flying: C -> C-
Victini: C- -> Unranked
Terrakion: C- -> Unranked
Bronzong: C+ -> Unranked
Mega Mawile: C -> C-

Reasoning:

Arceus-Fire: Harsh as it may be, I dropped this to D because there is literally no good moveset to run on this thing. CM/Judge/Thunder is walled by PDon and Latis, CM/Judge/EP is walled by Mence/Latis/POgre/Ho-Oh, CM 3-Attacks can't check Xerneas because of no Recover. This thing just has the worst case of 4MSS ever, no matter what you run you're going to get trampled by something really nasty (PDon, POgre, Mence, Lati, Ho-Oh, Groundceus, Rockceus, etc), which makes this Pokemon a complete liability on most teams.

Arceus-Flying: Mega Salamence

Victini: Primal Groudon killed this thing's viability, filling its niche as an offensive Xerneas check while also acting as a rock-solid universal check to pretty much every set except Final Gambit. Mega Salamence isn't nice either.

Terrakion: It's best niche was as an SR setter on Web teams, but Web is pretty much unviable in ORAS so there goes that niche.

Bronzong: Rejected for analysis.

Mega Mawile: Primal Groudon walls it pretty hard which makes it difficult to utilize.

Other Proposals:

Shaymin-S: B- -> B - Seems a bit criminal to rank this so low. SubSeed is still annoying, Life Orb sets are also nice as Seed Flare is nasty to a lot of popular things (Primals, Groundy, Rocky, etc) and a Flare SDef down followed by an LO Air Slash or two can mean the death of even solid checks like Ho-Oh. Also it gets Healing Wish which is a very rad move.

Forretress: C -> B- - Custap Berry makes this a lot more usable as a hazard lead for hyper offense teams. It can also notably spin away enemy hazards and prevent Defogs with Explosion which is pretty neat + things the other suicide Spikers can't do as well.

Scarf terrakion, while it does have its flaws, is actually a reliable dakrai check, and ekiller check in one mon. It's too weak to really do anything to pdon, but it has a legit niche and I'd rather use a scarf terrakion than a arceus fire for example, which really doesnt do anything for your team, except have a huge opportunity cost. I'd say c- is actually pretty fitting, giving that it does perform its niche rather well, as its actually a good answer to both and there isnt anything else that does what it does better. It's also an arceus dark check which is pretty neat.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

After realizing that C-Rank was indeed a bloated carcass (thanks AM) I decided to fix some things up:

Changes:

Arceus-Fire: C -> D
Arceus-Flying: C -> C-
Victini: C- -> Unranked
Terrakion: C- -> Unranked
Bronzong: C+ -> Unranked
Mega Mawile: C -> C-

Reasoning:

Arceus-Fire: Harsh as it may be, I dropped this to D because there is literally no good moveset to run on this thing. CM/Judge/Thunder is walled by PDon and Latis, CM/Judge/EP is walled by Mence/Latis/POgre/Ho-Oh, CM 3-Attacks can't check Xerneas because of no Recover. This thing just has the worst case of 4MSS ever, no matter what you run you're going to get trampled by something really nasty (PDon, POgre, Mence, Lati, Ho-Oh, Groundceus, Rockceus, etc), which makes this Pokemon a complete liability on most teams.

Arceus-Flying: Mega Salamence

Victini: Primal Groudon killed this thing's viability, filling its niche as an offensive Xerneas check while also acting as a rock-solid universal check to pretty much every set except Final Gambit. Mega Salamence isn't nice either.

Terrakion: It's best niche was as an SR setter on Web teams, but Web is pretty much unviable in ORAS so there goes that niche.

Bronzong: Rejected for analysis.

Mega Mawile: Primal Groudon walls it pretty hard which makes it difficult to utilize.

Other Proposals:

Shaymin-S: B- -> B - Seems a bit criminal to rank this so low. SubSeed is still annoying, Life Orb sets are also nice as Seed Flare is nasty to a lot of popular things (Primals, Groundy, Rocky, etc) and a Flare SDef down followed by an LO Air Slash or two can mean the death of even solid checks like Ho-Oh. Also it gets Healing Wish which is a very rad move.

Forretress: C -> B- - Custap Berry makes this a lot more usable as a hazard lead for hyper offense teams. It can also notably spin away enemy hazards and prevent Defogs with Explosion which is pretty neat + things the other suicide Spikers can't do as well.

I'd say no to forretress. Skarmory does this better

Pros:
Taunt
Whirlwind
Higher speed

Higher base speed allows it to taunt things like Forretress, ferrothorn and generally give it more turns to set up, it also has better bulk(over all, forretress has better physical defence) Whirlwind allows it to actually do something after setting up all hazards, rather than just exploding. forretress does have its niches over Skarmory as a suicide lead, Explosion and rapid spin most notably. But I doubt it's enough to move it out of C rank

 

[Dilwar]

After realizing that C-Rank was indeed a bloated carcass (thanks AM) I decided to fix some things up:

Changes:

Arceus-Fire: C -> D
Arceus-Flying: C -> C-
Victini: C- -> Unranked
Terrakion: C- -> Unranked
Bronzong: C+ -> Unranked
Mega Mawile: C -> C-

Reasoning:

Arceus-Fire: Harsh as it may be, I dropped this to D because there is literally no good moveset to run on this thing. CM/Judge/Thunder is walled by PDon and Latis, CM/Judge/EP is walled by Mence/Latis/POgre/Ho-Oh, CM 3-Attacks can't check Xerneas because of no Recover. This thing just has the worst case of 4MSS ever, no matter what you run you're going to get trampled by something really nasty (PDon, POgre, Mence, Lati, Ho-Oh, Groundceus, Rockceus, etc), which makes this Pokemon a complete liability on most teams.

Arceus-Flying: Mega Salamence

Victini: Primal Groudon killed this thing's viability, filling its niche as an offensive Xerneas check while also acting as a rock-solid universal check to pretty much every set except Final Gambit. Mega Salamence isn't nice either.

Terrakion: It's best niche was as an SR setter on Web teams, but Web is pretty much unviable in ORAS so there goes that niche.

Bronzong: Rejected for analysis.

Mega Mawile: Primal Groudon walls it pretty hard which makes it difficult to utilize.

Other Proposals:

Shaymin-S: B- -> B - Seems a bit criminal to rank this so low. SubSeed is still annoying, Life Orb sets are also nice as Seed Flare is nasty to a lot of popular things (Primals, Groundy, Rocky, etc) and a Flare SDef down followed by an LO Air Slash or two can mean the death of even solid checks like Ho-Oh. Also it gets Healing Wish which is a very rad move.

Forretress: C -> B- - Custap Berry makes this a lot more usable as a hazard lead for hyper offense teams. It can also notably spin away enemy hazards and prevent Defogs with Explosion which is pretty neat + things the other suicide Spikers can't do as well.

I second ApplepieFTW in that Terrakion shouldn't be unranked. It does have a niche like he stated, and you can Darkceus to the list of things it checks. As for Shaymin-S, I think it should be higher than B. B+ seems most fitting. At B we have things like Aegislash and Zekrom, which are certainly inferior to Shaymin-S. Unlike them, Shaymin-S can actually put in work in the majority of battles and doesn't have the worst match up against the new threats in ORAS. B+ has Pokemon like Palkia, a Pokemon who kinda lost all niches it had as well as other weird things like Landorus-T who just isn't good anymore. Seeing Shaymin-S beneath them looks weird.

Question: why was it ranked so low in the first place?

 

[Thugly Duckling]

I agree with AM that Primal Kyogre should be in S rank. The argument I propose is similar to the argument opposed to dropping Xerneas in early ORAS (I believe it belonged to one of Hack's posts on page one)—Primal Groudon is a superb check to it, but it still defines the metagame and forces you to prepare for it with secondary checks.

This is an identical scenario with Primal Kyogre. A perfect explanation to why Latias and Latios are so common in the metagame. They check what would otherwise plow your team, Primal Kyogre, only further identifying how much of a threat the mon really is. Even Ferrothorn, an excellent check, can get bopped easily by SubCM, a viable set; and, it can be untimely burned by Scald, something it despises greatly. Primal Kyogre absolutely decimates underprepared teams, and literally nets a KO every single time it comes in for free on a Primal Groudon that lacks a Water/Ice resist behind it. I won't counterargue the low speed/easy to revenge kill argument because that has been an issue with it ever since DPPt, the only difference now is that its speed can longer be viably deflawed with a Choice Scarf.

Overall amazing mon, it can effectively run various sets and fits perfectly in S or S-.

 

[DracoMaster Dab]

imo forretress deserves to be b- as its a fanastic anti lead to ho teams,is pretty much guaranteed to get 2 layers up,can BOOM to prevent defogs and set up.the only thing it doesnt appreciate are p don and ho-oh two very big threats in the meta as of now.Also Mega sableye is a bit of a problem as forretress cant touch it at all.IMO,move up foretress its a fantastic lead as shown by sweep in spl(not that it matters but sweep's team was one of the best in spl).

 

[DracoMaster Dab]

nominating Mega Aero for b- ranking after discussion with helpful user Hack :].The reasons being it's a burd check(HO-oh and mence),is a fast sr setter that prevents defogs,beats diancie,is also very fast which helps in revenge killing.now on to the cons: opportunity cost in not using mega croissant,can only fit on HO,loses to mega sableye and can be anti lead by stuff like spinners or faster taunt leads like deoxys-speed.overall v solid mon.Also lord tyrantrum for s+++++++++ :].

 

[PISTOLERO]

Hello, I've taken a hatchet to the viability rankings after reading what everyone wants.

Mewtwo and Mewtwo Y A+ to A
Arceus-Water B to B+
Deoxys-S and Deoxys-A A- to B+
Landorus-Therian B+ to B
Palkia B+ to B
Ferrothorn B to B+
Shaymin-S B- to B+
Skarmory B- to B
Sableye B to B-
Heatran C+ to C on the way to being removed
Hippowdon C+ to C on the way to being removed
Mega Aerodactyl added to C+

All these Arceus formes are complete garbage: Dragon, Psychic, Steel, Ice, and to a lesser extent Electric. I would like people to post teams with these Arceus formes used because if it was up to me there would be like six Arceus formes in D. Arceus-Fighting is probably more viable than Steel to be honest.

Something else to address is that theoretical arguments about something are kind of stupid. The reason that Palkia and Landorus-Therian are moved down is because they are not used, and the reason they are not used is because they suck. People will not use Pokemon that are bad unless they have to for a specific niche, like using Palkia because the team absolutely cannot afford to have Lati@s pursuit trapped.​

 

[Guidorealmsmc]

All these Arceus formes are complete garbage: Dragon, Psychic, Steel, Ice, and to a lesser extent Electric. I would like people to post teams with these Arceus formes used because if it was up to me there would be like six Arceus formes in D. Arceus-Fighting is probably more viable than Steel to be honest. What many people are forgetting is that on their own, Arceus formes are all solid Pokemon.The reason that half of them are garbage is because they take the Arceus forme from your team.
​

To be frank those arceus forms aren't on the level of bug but should stay in the C ranks. I do agree psychic should be D rank however.

 

[Fireburn]

Landorus-Therian B+ to B
Palkia B+ to B
Ferrothorn B to B+​

Lando-T and Palkia have had zero discussion in the past 10 pages or so, leave them alone.

I also find moving Ferrothorn up extremely questionable at present as it has a fair number of flaws (Fire bait, accomplishes nothing against Mega Sableye stall builds, not really a reliable Xerneas check) and is currently the proud owner of a 10% SPL win rate which is abysmal considering its been used as much as Latios.

 

[Prinz]

Palkia is good, 2HKOs PDon with Lustrous Orb, checks Kyogre and almost nothing can switch-in against it safety. B+ is fine for it

No opinion on Lando-T, guess I haven't seen a Landorus-T in Ubers since XY prolly, but don't think it's good or anything so it might deserve to drop.

Also I agree on what Fireburn said about Ferrothorn, the tier is atm not really nice to it and its win rate in SPL is p much bad, so don't see why it deserves a rise too.

 

[TheEpicCD56]

I won't counterargue the low speed/easy to revenge kill argument because that has been an issue with it ever since DPPt, the only difference now is that its speed can longer be viably deflawed with a Choice Scarf..

While I agree that PRIMAL Kyogre should be S, if you use a choice scarf, You can't become Primal. Just wanted to point that out.

 

[Freeroamer]

While I agree that PRIMAL Kyogre should be S, if you use a choice scarf, You can't become Primal. Just wanted to point that out.

I'm pretty certain that was just a typo, I think he meant that you can't scarf it anymore, meaning that element of prediction is gone from it, ie. it's one less set it could possibly be running.

Also I brought it up before, but it kinda got skipped over without response, but what do people think of Lati@s to S-? Very splashable on lots of teams thanks to the roles they can compress as Defog user, Kyogre switchin, a P-don check(obviously shouldn't be your only one, but alongside something else it helps vs it) and in general, either one has great options. Latios hits really deceptively hard, while Latias is really deceptively bulky, and can run interesting team support options such as Healing Wish which alongside threats such as P don and Mence, makes them even harder to handle if they burnt themselves out before sweeping last time. Overall very good pokemon in the current metagame, and I believe that they should rise.

 

[Thugly Duckling]

While I agree that PRIMAL Kyogre should be S, if you use a choice scarf, You can't become Primal. Just wanted to point that out.

Yeah my mistake, thanks for catching that. When I mentioned, that I meant for it to explain the one less set the base form could be running (primal ogre is not a mon, it's a form).