Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V2 - Check Post #2500 PG. 100

[ボーイ]

Can we see Arcanine in D rank now? The suspect test is over.

 

[astroboy]

Can we see Arcanine in D rank now? The suspect test is over.

eh. it's still a pretty bad mon. it has a stealth rock weakness, only pseudo-bulk bc of intimidate, lack of reliable recovery, and set up fodder for popular threats, like lando and keld. beating one mon isn't really a good use of a teamslot.

 

[firehusky]

eh. it's still a pretty bad mon. it has a stealth rock weakness, only pseudo-bulk bc of intimidate, lack of reliable recovery, and set up fodder for popular threats, like lando and keld. beating one mon isn't really a good use of a teamslot.

Arcanine actually does have recovery in the form or Morning Sun, but I think it only has 8 PP, plus Sand and Rain teams are quite common, which lower the amount of health that Morning Sun recovers.
I do agree that Arcanine should stay unranked though, it's really really niche and there are much better ways of countering Mega Metagross such as Victini, Mega Scizor, Mega Slowbro, and Hippowdon (if no grass knot).
Heck, I even think that Arcanine should be blacklisted.

 

[AM]

The idea of removing Arcanine was established before the M-Gross suspect during the lower ranking clean ups. It's a bad Pokemon and doesn't warrant a ranking.

 

[firehusky]

Mega Aggron
C- ---> C

Mega Aggron is quite underrated currently. It has solid defensive stats, and mono-steel is an amazing defensive typing, combined with filter, it can easily take even super effective physical attacks. Mega Aggron handles lots of offensive threats such as Mega Pinsir, Mega Metagross, and non fire blast Mega Altaria. It has a niche, albeit quite small, of being a super super bulky SR setter with solid offensive stats and good coverage options, such as Avalanche (better than ice punch because Aggron is slower than most of the things that it wants to hit, such as gliscor, landorus-t, and garchomp), Fire Punch (turns Mega Aggron into an amazing (Mega) Scizor counter), and Earthquake. Mega Aggron can also be a decent phazer, as it learns Dragon Tail, allowing it to rack up residual damage with hazards on the field. Mega Aggron does have some shortcomings though, it has low speed and special defense, opportunity cost, and is set up fodder for some common Pokemon such as SubCM Keldeo and Mega Sableye. However, it's insanely physically bulky and is able to check many top tier threats such as Mega Metagross, Mega Altaria, Mega Pinsir, non EQ Mega Gyarados, HP Fire Mega Diancie, Mega Gallade (kind of shaky though), Mega Scizor, Mega Aerodactyl, etc, so I think it could possibly move up to C.

 

[astroboy]

Arcanine actually does have recovery in the form or Morning Sun, but I think it only has 8 PP, plus Sand and Rain teams are quite common, which lower the amount of health that Morning Sun recovers.
I do agree that Arcanine should stay unranked though, it's really really niche and there are much better ways of countering Mega Metagross such as Victini, Mega Scizor, Mega Slowbro, and Hippowdon (if no grass knot).
Heck, I even think that Arcanine should be blacklisted.

thats what i meant by "reliable recovery"

also, whats the general consesus on rachi? i'm not the most experienced with it, but it seems a notch above things like diggers or aero. its a great mon for balance and stall due to its great synergy with things like sableye while also having a huge movepool to help suit the teams needs. i've even seen some pretty effective things like an icy wind lure to beat ground/flyings and dragons! i think its biggest flaw is that it's not able to run everything at once, but it has the greninja aspect of it where it can change its moves to beat what needs to be beat. don't really wanna nominate it, but it seems to fit a rank more than a-

 

[p2]

Gonna bring this one up again, Victini for B+

Amazing wallbreaker and it's really underrated right now imo, Banded V-Crates pretty much destroys everything not named Heatran, and Bolt Strike beats Bulky Waters. It has a poor defensive typing, but it allows Victini to counter some threats, especially Mega Metagross.
It also has some other neat options like a SDef set so it can check Fairies like Sylveon or Gardevoir, and even a SubPuP set which lets it screw over Bisharp and TTar and it can easily boost against bulky Waters like Suicune or Slowbro and 2HKO them at +1. It's definitely quite unpredictable and I think it should rise because it's definitely more on the level of B+

 

[Yuyuko for UU]

Gonna bring this one up again, Victini for B+

Amazing wallbreaker and it's really underrated right now imo, Banded V-Crates pretty much destroys everything not named Heatran, and Bolt Strike beats Bulky Waters. It has a poor defensive typing, but it allows Victini to counter some threats, especially Mega Metagross.
It also has some other neat options like a SDef set so it can check Fairies like Sylveon or Gardevoir, and even a SubPuP set which lets it screw over Bisharp and TTar and it can easily boost against bulky Waters like Suicune or Slowbro and 2HKO them at +1. It's definitely quite unpredictable and I think it should rise because it's definitely more on the level of B+

Seconding this as Banded V-Create is a very great wallbreaking move that can easily whittle down bulkier mons for teammates. Victini also has access to U-Turn to keep offensive momentum up against what it can't hit well like Heatran and Victini pairs very well with mons like Mega Lopunny and Keldeo. Victini's movepool is also great as it holds many great moves like Bolt Strike which definitely give Pokemon like Slowbro a reason to fear Victini. Issues of course lie in not having the greatest speed tier in the world and being weak to many priorities and susceptibility to Pursuit and of course Stealth Rock weakness, but I definitely agree on Victini moving up to B+ as its offensive power is nothing to be underestimated.

 

[ボーイ]

eh. it's still a pretty bad mon. it has a stealth rock weakness, only pseudo-bulk bc of intimidate, lack of reliable recovery, and set up fodder for popular threats, like lando and keld. beating one mon isn't really a good use of a teamslot.

The idea of removing Arcanine was established before the M-Gross suspect during the lower ranking clean ups. It's a bad Pokemon and doesn't warrant a ranking.

Oh ok. I just wanted to mention it. I didn't know that was the case. I just thought that the way I was using it made it viable. Um, I'll just explain how I was using Arcanine, but nobody really has to consider it to change the rankings. I just think it would help other Arcanine users like me.

Analysis:

Alkaline (Arcanine) (M) @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Intimidate
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 248 HP / 240 Def / 20 Spe
Impish Nature
IVs: 0 SpA
- Morning Sun
- Will-O-Wisp
- Iron Head
- Bulldoze

Morning Sun mainly kept it alive, Will-o-Wisp is what tamed offense, Iron head mainly checked fairy types, especially ones that healed status, and bulldoze checked Entei, Darm, Victini, and predicted Heatran. 20 EV on Speed was the magic number that out-sped Jolly Crawdaunt, and outsped Terrakion switching in on a predicted bulldoze. 248 EV on HP was the highest health under Stealth Rocks. The rest went on Defense. 0 IV on Spa because dumb things like Power Swap (same concept with 0 IV on Atk and Foul Play only much less relevant).

Role:

Metagross is back. And it wrecks the game after mega evolving. It's highly considered that Arcanine comes in on an all ready Mega'd Metagross; Pre-mega has Clear Body which negates Intimidate. Will-o-wisp+Morning Sun to keep it at full.
-1 252 Atk Mega Metagross Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Arcanine: 134-158 (34.9 - 41.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Lopunny being the greatest hit & runner often chips away at teams. With the help of Arcanine, it can come in and Intimidate Loppuny and +damage with Rocky Helmet. Whether it hits and hits, or hits and runs, Arcanine is almost certain to regain health right after.
-1 252 Atk Mega Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Arcanine: 123-145 (32.1 - 37.8%) -- 94.6% chance to 3HKO

Controversies:

Diancie as we all know of lately, has been scouting a lot of things with the use of Protect, which makes it viable in leading the team. I know it makes Arcanine look awful to use, but the way I've been using it was to check Diancie for Protect upon mega evolving. Arcanine being faster than Pre-Mega Diancie:
0 Atk Arcanine Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Diancie: 232-276 (96.2 - 114.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
This might be one of the very few reasons Diancie will never let go of using Protect.
Gardevoir is also a very popular stallbreaker, which by the way, Arcanine is a staller. In the case of the Arcanine I use, unless Gardevoir is Modest, with any decent player Arcanine should be able to burn stall Gardevoir.
252 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Arcanine: 138-162 (36 - 42.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Mega Gardevoir Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Arcanine: 132-156 (34.4 - 40.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

In conclusion I think Arcanine definitely knows how to adapt to today's metagame. I would love to have this back in D rank, which makes a fun partner to Sableye-Mega, but I really only posted this so you guys don't black list Arcanine.

 

[astroboy]

Oh ok. I just wanted to mention it. I didn't know that was the case. I just thought that the way I was using it made it viable. Um, I'll just explain how I was using Arcanine, but nobody really has to consider it to change the rankings. I just think it would help other Arcanine users like me.

Analysis:

Alkaline (Arcanine) (M) @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Intimidate
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 248 HP / 240 Def / 20 Spe
Impish Nature
IVs: 0 SpA
- Morning Sun
- Will-O-Wisp
- Iron Head
- Bulldoze

Morning Sun mainly kept it alive, Will-o-Wisp is what tamed offense, Iron head mainly checked fairy types, especially ones that healed status, and bulldoze checked Entei, Darm, Victini, and predicted Heatran. 20 EV on Speed was the magic number that out-sped Jolly Crawdaunt, and outsped Terrakion switching in on a predicted bulldoze. 248 EV on HP was the highest health under Stealth Rocks. The rest went on Defense. 0 IV on Spa because dumb things like Power Swap (same concept with 0 IV on Atk and Foul Play only much less relevant).

Role:

Metagross is back. And it wrecks the game after mega evolving. It's highly considered that Arcanine comes in on an all ready Mega'd Metagross; Pre-mega has Clear Body which negates Intimidate. Will-o-wisp+Morning Sun to keep it at full.
-1 252 Atk Mega Metagross Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Arcanine: 134-158 (34.9 - 41.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Lopunny being the greatest hit & runner often chips away at teams. With the help of Arcanine, it can come in and Intimidate Loppuny and +damage with Rocky Helmet. Whether it hits and hits, or hits and runs, Arcanine is almost certain to regain health right after.
-1 252 Atk Mega Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Arcanine: 123-145 (32.1 - 37.8%) -- 94.6% chance to 3HKO

Controversies:

Diancie as we all know of lately, has been scouting a lot of things with the use of Protect, which makes it viable in leading the team. I know it makes Arcanine look awful to use, but the way I've been using it was to check Diancie for Protect upon mega evolving. Arcanine being faster than Pre-Mega Diancie:
0 Atk Arcanine Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Diancie: 232-276 (96.2 - 114.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
This might be one of the very few reasons Diancie will never let go of using Protect.
Gardevoir is also a very popular stallbreaker, which by the way, Arcanine is a staller. In the case of the Arcanine I use, unless Gardevoir is Modest, with any decent player Arcanine should be able to burn stall Gardevoir.
252 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Arcanine: 138-162 (36 - 42.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Mega Gardevoir Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Arcanine: 132-156 (34.4 - 40.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

In conclusion I think Arcanine definitely knows how to adapt to today's metagame. I would love to have this back in D rank, which makes a fun partner to Sableye-Mega, but I really only posted this so you guys don't black list Arcanine.

this is a suboptimal set that shouldn't really be used. passive, no stab, and set up fodder to things like talonflame. run will-o/roar/morning sun/fire move if you really want to run arcanine, but this set is just...no. and modest gardevoir is pretty standard now.
and protect diancie runs earth power? its an ohko with rocks since you have no passive recovery
dont use arcanine. its bad in ou

 

[ボーイ]

this is a suboptimal set that shouldn't really be used. passive, no stab, and set up fodder to things like talonflame. run will-o/roar/morning sun/fire move if you really want to run arcanine, but this set is just...no. and modest gardevoir is pretty standard now.
and protect diancie runs earth power? its an ohko with rocks since you have no passive recovery
dont use arcanine. its bad in ou

Look, I already know Diancie and Gardevoir are problems. That's why they were controversial to the set that I was using, for fun, and that I only wished Arcanine was D ranked, not asked. The only thing I asked for was to not black list it. I was really hoping most of you actually understood my posting.

 

[Sanger Zonvolt]

Look, I already know Diancie and Gardevoir are problems. That's why they were controversial to the set that I was using, for fun, and that I only wished Arcanine was D ranked, not asked. The only thing I asked for was to not black list it. I was really hoping most of you actually understood my posting.

Blacklisting occurs when discussion about a particular makes the thread toxic and sets it down a downward spiral. If you don't want it blacklisted, you should drop the subject because you aren't adding anything new or innovated to was was already a pretty situational set. We can't stop you from using it, but if your goal was just to make sure it doesn't get blacklisted, dropping the subject altogether will likely work more in your favor.

 

[ボーイ]

If you don't want it blacklisted, you should drop the subject because you aren't adding anything new or innovated to was was already a pretty situational set.

If you must know, I posted optimal facts. New ones, calcs that only I have mentioned. I highly doubt they will blacklist something they've recently had ranked because I was curious about where it went.

 

[AM]

We're ending discussion on Arcanine. Anything further we'll be deleted. Move on.

 

[BlueLobster]

Some stuff I think needs a mention:

Chansey: B+ --> A-/A: Chansey is a complete menace on stall. Without a physical fighting move, I fail to think of something that OHKOs it. It walls most specially offensive stuff, and has an amazing movepool. It can cleric, T-Wave, set rocks (plz don't tho, it has better things to do) and, while passive af, can stop setup sweepers from using it as taunt bait with seismic toss. It can function decently post knock off too, and it's immunity to ghost is fabulous. It's far more viable than it's B+ stally counterparts, such as Amoonguss.

Skarm also needs to go up to A- IMO, it beats the prominent MMeta with counter, is a hella annoying physical wall, and with custap's release has it's HO niche back. While not as undersold as Chansey by it being B+ (My brain refuses to even accept that rank as real), it is definately on the level as stuff such as Politoed and other A-'s.

I'm not going to push with my B+'s to A-'s yet, but will back any movement for Kyu-B's rise. I also back Victini for B+ (I'm not trying to empty it lol, I just think it seems to be in 2, with stuff that's amazing like Chansey, while more mediocre stuff like Breloom and MBee is far below it in usefulness, but in the same rank).

In bullet points:

Chansey + Skarmory for A-
Supporting Victini for B+

 

[Force Majeure]

I agree with firehusky that Tornadus-T should rise from A- to A. To add to what everyone else has mentioned about it:

The accuracy issue with Hurricane and FB isn't too terrible because you're probably going to be using its utility moves quite a bit, especially at the beginning of the battle. Totn-T is really great to use partially because it can provide great item removal/scouting early while still being able to pick off slower weakened threats later thanks to its speed. I think accuracy is still a pretty substantial problem and one that would keep it from rising further. Rain mostly negates the accuracy issue, and Torn pairs pretty well with bulky CM/RD Manaphy if you'd rather use it as a weather core rather than on a rain team with Politied and the Swift Swimmers.

I'd like to re-emphasize how important the speed tier is; just like with Starmie and Raikou, it's able to outspeed such a large portion of the unboosted metagame. This has become very important with Greninja's banning but perhaps moreso now that we know that M-Metagross is staying.

 

[Jukain]

I don't support moving Victini up. Victini has a bunch of issues in the current OU metagame that make its current rank entirely justified. Being difficult to wall isn't a good enough justification anymore when you have a Pokemon that is easily revenge killed and checked. While it has access to Bolt Strike, Victini still struggles in the presence of common Water-type attackers. Its weakness to Stealth Rock limits its opportunities to come in and attack, and it is easily checked by Pokemon like Mega Slowbro, Heatran, and Landorus-T. A Pursuit weakness doesn't help either when you consider that Scarftar is extremely common in the current metagame. Sure, not everything that handles it does so perfectly, but you don't have to have counters to everything. Victini struggles in finding opportunities to get in against common Pokemon, causing its viability to be rather low.

 

[astroboy]

I don't support moving Victini up. Victini has a bunch of issues in the current OU metagame that make its current rank entirely justified. Being difficult to wall isn't a good enough justification anymore when you have a Pokemon that is easily revenge killed and checked. While it has access to Bolt Strike, Victini still struggles in the presence of common Water-type attackers. Its weakness to Stealth Rock limits its opportunities to come in and attack, and it is easily checked by Pokemon like Mega Slowbro, Heatran, and Landorus-T. A Pursuit weakness doesn't help either when you consider that Scarftar is extremely common in the current metagame. Sure, not everything that handles it does so perfectly, but you don't have to have counters to everything. Victini struggles in finding opportunities to get in against common Pokemon, causing its viability to be rather low.

correct me if im wrong, but isn't victinis main role a wallbreaker? while yes, slowbro, heatran, and landog are common checks, but slowbro is only a safe switch in if it's already mega evolved or rocks arent up, landorus gets easily worn down as it has no recovery and is only a good check if its fully defensive, and heatran cant do anything back unless it has the rare earth power and is 2hko'd by banded bolt strike. a pursuit weakness is bad, yes, but bisharp cant switch in and scarftar takes a significant chunk. it also has u-turn, which allows it to get some chip damage on its checks. banded set is probably its best right now, so that it can get some serious damage on anything thanks to its high bp moves. it even 2hkos hippowdown! i really cant agree with it being considered on the same level of viability as cresselia or mandibuzz. not to mention how its a great offensive metagross, lopunny, clefable, char-y, (mega) scizor, sceptile, and garde check that can fit on offensive teams.

i'm gonna use the banded set for the calcs because its probably the most effective for its sheer power

calcs

Mega Bro
252+ Atk Choice Band Victini Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 80+ Def Mega Slowbro: 202-238 (51.2 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

4 SpA Mega Slowbro Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Victini: 218-258 (63.9 - 75.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Heatran
252+ Atk Choice Band Victini Bolt Strike vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 185-218 (48 - 56.6%) -- 35.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Heatran Lava Plume vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Victini: 54-64 (15.8 - 18.7%) -- possible 6HKO

Landorus-T (not a safe switch in if scarfed)
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 207-244 (54.1 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Landorus-T: 285-336 (89.3 - 105.3%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO (jfc)

4 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Victini: 300-354 (87.9 - 103.8%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Victini: 356-420 (104.3 - 123.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Metagross
252+ Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 566-668 (188 - 221.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Victini: 106-126 (31 - 36.9%) -- 74.1% chance to 3HKO

Lopunny
252+ Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Lopunny: 423-498 (156 - 183.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Mega Lopunny Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Victini: 172-204 (50.4 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Clefable
252+ Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Clefable: 429-505 (108.8 - 128.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Victini: 49-58 (14.3 - 17%) -- possible 6HKO

Charizard-Y

252+ Atk Choice Band Victini Bolt Strike vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard Y: 476-560 (160.2 - 188.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Victini in Sun: 156-185 (45.7 - 54.2%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO

Scizor & Mega Scizor

252+ Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 248 HP / 0+ Def Mega Scizor: 1096-1296 (319.5 - 377.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 1612-1900 (469.9 - 553.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Scizor Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Victini: 350-412 (102.6 - 120.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO (you outspeed)
84 Atk Mega Scizor Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Victini: 212-250 (62.1 - 73.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Sceptile

252+ Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Sceptile: 510-601 (181.4 - 213.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Mega Sceptile Dragon Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Victini: 151-178 (44.2 - 52.1%) -- 16% chance to 2HKO

Gardevoir

252+ Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Mega Gardevoir: 552-651 (199.2 - 235%) -- guaranteed OHKO

232+ SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Victini: 124-147 (36.3 - 43.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

victinis severely underrated in this meta, and i'm a big supporter of victini to b+


speaking of char-y, why hasn't it gone back to a+? i remember there was some discussion about this a while ago and everyone seemed to be in pretty much in agreement for it. what was the reasoning behind it not going up?

 

[heritage]

Honestly, the post above mine reminded me of this nomination that I wanted to make.

Charizard Y needs to move back to A+, since there's basically no reason for it to be any lower. Charizard Y hits harder than Mega Gardevoir, and if that isn't impressive, i don't know what is. Sun boosted Fire Blast is nearly impossible to switch in to. Even resists have nearly an impossible time sponging a Fire Blast, not to mention that Water types get beaten by Solar Beam. Fire / Grass coverage is really good right now, and combine that with Focus Blast, there are literally no safe switch ins. Also, in Sun, Charizard loses the weakness to Water, which is really helpful for Pokemon such as Keldeo and Azumarill. Charizard Y also handles a good portion of the new Mega Pokemon that were introduced in ORAS. Charizard Y has pretty deceiving bulk, too, as 78 / 78 / 115 is actually pretty decent. The x4 weakness to Stealth Rock is probably Charizard's biggest downfall, but that can be easily alleviated with a bit of team support. Overall, Charizard Y is a monster, and deserves nothing less than A+.

Wall of Calcs

252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Sun: 202-238 (28.6 - 33.8%) -- 99.2% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye in Sun: 186-220 (61.1 - 72.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 244 HP / 192+ SpD Gliscor in Sun: 288-339 (81.8 - 96.3%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Altaria in Sun: 150-177 (51.3 - 60.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable in Sun: 340-402 (86.2 - 102%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios in Sun: 144-169 (48.1 - 56.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Slowbro: 366-432 (92.8 - 109.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Garchomp in Sun: 200-236 (56 - 66.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 408-480 (119.6 - 140.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 72 HP / 0 SpD Latias in Sun: 126-148 (39.4 - 46.3%) -- 30.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 32 SpD Assault Vest Raikou in Sun: 204-240 (63.5 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 224 HP / 0 SpD Tentacruel in Sun: 134-158 (37.5 - 44.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery

252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew in Sun: 313-370 (77.4 - 91.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 236 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr in Sun: 220-261 (62.6 - 74.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[bludz]

I think the issue with Char Y going up to A+ is the team support it requires. While Talonflame is also 4x weak to Stealth Rocks it is hands down the best revenge killer and can even sweep teams or stallbreak with the best of them. Charizard Y plays one role very well but I think the downsides are enough to keep it in A.

I agree with Victini moving up to B+ and I also like the Reuniclus to C+ push as well. Tornadus-T I am unsure about.

Mega Scizor A -> A+
Wait.. why did this drop again? It's bulkier than Skarmory if you include special defense and gets access to amazing utility moves such as Defog, U-turn (STAB!!) and Knock Off. The only Mega that can run a wider variety of sets is Mega Altaria because it doesn't need to be a physical attacker. Scizor can run Defensive Defog, Bulky Swords Dance, Offensive Swords Dance, Roost + 3 attacks and each of these sets has a choice of moves. This level of versatility makes it difficult to predict (not impossible, of course) what you're going to get when playing against Mega Scizor, and also allows more flexibility from a teambuilding perspective. Bulky variants have become more popular in my experience -- they can be extremely difficult to take down, and pose a serious threat with SD or Defog reliably without fearing Bisharp. I really don't think it's a stretch to say Mega Scizor is on the level of other A+ mons.

I understand that you can't run a master set with all its moves, and each set has specific checks and counters. However in order to properly counter it, scouting moves is advised, which can be dangerous in itself. Versatility is definitely a powerful weapon. I'd say it isn't if the sets themselves aren't that great, but all of Scizor's sets are pretty good. I think Bulky SD is an A+ set, Offensive SD is A or A+ and Defog is A. I'll grant that I can't remember seeing Roost + 3 attacks but I think it sounds like a pretty solid pivot. I know some people are hesitant about the Defog set because of the opportunity cost of relegating a Mega to a support role, but it is really very good at the role and walls so many things. Slapping on a Skarmory really isn't the same because you lose nearly all offensive presence and the utility of either U-turn or Knock Off.

 

[BlueLobster]

I don't support moving Victini up. Victini has a bunch of issues in the current OU metagame that make its current rank entirely justified. Being difficult to wall isn't a good enough justification anymore when you have a Pokemon that is easily revenge killed and checked. While it has access to Bolt Strike, Victini still struggles in the presence of common Water-type attackers. Its weakness to Stealth Rock limits its opportunities to come in and attack, and it is easily checked by Pokemon like Mega Slowbro, Heatran, and Landorus-T. A Pursuit weakness doesn't help either when you consider that Scarftar is extremely common in the current metagame. Sure, not everything that handles it does so perfectly, but you don't have to have counters to everything. Victini struggles in finding opportunities to get in against common Pokemon, causing its viability to be rather low.

Most of what I want to say back to this has already beens said, and it also has a scarf set and a substitute set. It's common checks are actually easily beatable, Lando is beat by scarf Victini's Glaciate, and certainly doesn't like taking V-Creates from it unless it's defensive rocks Lando-T, and Lando is worn down easily as it has no recovery bar lefties. Slowbro is weak to Bolt Strike and U-Turn. Bisharp is beat by SubPuP unless it predicts right. Offensive Heatran doesn't enjoy taking Bolt Strikes when it switches in, and loses without EP. It needs to be scarfed to outspeed as well. Defensive Tran doesn't wall it due to no recovery. Of course it can't do anything V ScarfTar, as it traps and beats it with no risk. That doesn't make it unviable, see Magnezone and Skarmory, Ferrothorn etc. It can also just U-Turn on the ScarfTar switch, and being weak to bug TTar doesn't like that. As for it's SR weakness, yeah being SR weak does suck, but hazards are pretty easy to clear, and hazard removal/prevention on offense isn't hard to find with stuff like M.Diancie, Lati@s, Starmie and Excadrill being great offensive hazard clearers. While it does have rather prominent checks, I still feel it fits into B+ more than B.

 

[AM]

I don't really agree with Victini moving up for all the points Jukain pointed out up above. Also the idea that hazard removal is easy to come by would be fine if the hazard removers didn't add on to issues it already has, the Latis / Starmie + Victini being pursuit weak, Excadrill + Victini being bulky water weak, and so forth. The comparison between Victini and Cresselia + Mandibuzz isn't exactly fair when they serve very different roles where Cresselias defensive capabilities allows it to form strong defensive cores while Mandibuzz boasts similar defensive utility, however Mandibuzz I believe warrants a drop when I can create a more in depth post on it.

I also don't agree with Charizard-Y moving up and I'll just bring up this argument when this was brought up previously, which most parts still hold true.

Just know this my own personal opinion not the one of the ranking team. Charizard-Y should stay A because although it's one of the best wall-breakers if not one of the best mons in A right now, there are two concerns I primarily have. One is rank inflation in regards that you'll have too many A+ mons situated in that position while realistically much of the A+ ranked mons are a bit harder to take into account for, such as Landorus and Thundurus for example. Another is that although Charizard-Y is a great balance breaker it will lose to consistent offensive pressure, which isn't as unrealistic as it sounds considering the nature of its speed tier, SR weakness, and somewhat fragile defensive side. Yes there's not a whole lot that wants to switch into Charizard-Y on any given day of the week, however, Charizard-Y finds itself in these very awkward match-ups against heavy offense that can't be ignored because half if not more of the team is occupying a speed tier of 100 or higher generally. You look at something like Landorus for example that has a way to pressure offense as well through the use of Rock Polish, neutrality to Stealth Rocks, and being electric immune which gives its sweeping capabilities even more efficiency because Prankster T-Wave users will not deter its speed. Charizard-Y theoretically has set up with Tailwind however this is a temporary asset that forces you to lose Roost or coverage, with Roost being important to make up for its SR weakness in the first place. Landorus can just get the ball rolling and has the coverage options and diversity to be one step ahead of Charizard-Y in regards to wall-breaking capabilities. This is my perspective of why it should be at A because it's no better or equal to Landorus in viability.

This last point may not apply to Landorus as much anymore considering the current nomination of S rank but it still holds some relevancy in the fact that Char-Y still has issues that realistically has to be taken into account while playing and building with it. It needs to be understood that Char-Y in of itself is basically a detriment to common Balanced cores primarily, not so much stall who have defensive backbones to handle it, while offense can easily pressure it. It is by no means on the level of Gengar who has even less realistic switch ins, falls under a higher speed tier, boasts more versatility and utility, and as such is a pain for all sorts of cores and playstyles, from offense to defensive cores.

I don't agree with Chansey moving up. It's set up bait for plenty in the tier and generally this is counter productive when Stall, the archetype Chansey will normally be found on, is forced to make sure these set up opportunities by the opponent are mitigated as much as possible. Being over dependent on Eviolite forces a lot of games with Chansey vs. potential Knock Off users and a defensive Pokemon that is basically giving free turns to the opponent at times is not a favorable aspect for Chansey. It's fine in B+.

Hm I'm sort of free so I guess I can answer some questions now.

 

[bludz]

What's your opinion of firehusky's nomination of Torn-T from A- to A?

 

[AM]

I wanted Torn-T in A originally for what most people are saying however I decided on A- at the time of voting since it seemed like a pretty big jump based on the meta trends at the time. Torn-T in A as of now isn't exactly too much of a stretch from what I've seen and played and is actually much harder to prepare for than a majority of the A ranked mons right now, although not as centralizing or efficient as the A+ ranked mons so that's my take on the matter.

 

[Arcanine is Regal]

I dont agree with charizard-y or chansey moving up, I wont reiterate what others said but something I feel both of these mons have in common is there are certain teams where they are more or less dead weight. I mean chansey is sometimes actually a detriment to have on your team because it can be completely taken advantage of. And for charizard-y I think it struggles against the more polarized teams in terms of HO and stall, almost every mon on HO can outspeed and ko char after rocks and stall can easily wear down charizard while being able to tank its hits well enough and then healing it off. I mean the stealth rocks weakness is crippling in the most severe meaning of the word, if they have chary you know their top priority is defogging/spinning which gives you a huge advantage. But yeah they are both good mons that do some things exceptionally well, but they are not well rounded enough to move up.

Also, I just wanted to express my disappointment that you all failed to provide ample evidence for arcanines ranking, it was not a hard task. ( A moment of silence for his fall from his 15 minutes)