np: UU Stage 2.1 - You Are Invited

Status
Not open for further replies.
Serp is for nerdZzZ, once more reason to keep it :)
Although it sure is a trouble maker if i say so myself. But i have had no problem with it, so i will be voting for the Kepp
 
Serperior is something I used quite a bit. I laddered with it a fair amount before it got banned initially and got reqs using it as well.

It has 113 base speed, a great typing within uu, respectable bulk for an offensive mon, a great support move pool, and most importantly, it can snowball through most of the meta. Another unique thing about serperior is that with contrary leaf storm it can get a free boost off of anything that it can kill with leaf storm. This makes it a really potent wallbreaker and a great offensive mon in the tier in general. The fact that it's boosting move is also it's most spammable offensive move frees up move slots as well. This allows it to run sets like taunt synthesis and glare synthesis while still retaining a coverage move. Glare, synthesis, leaf storm, hidden power ice was the set I used the most and had the most success with.

The biggest problem with serperior, in my opinion, is the limited number of switch ins. The best defensive switch ins include goodra, amoonguss, and roserade. While all of these work, none of them are exactly staple mons in the tier. Offensive switch ins tend to work pretty well, but (bar rotom-h) they have to dodge a glare to get in safely.

I really enjoyed how offensive this meta was and in practice didn't have major issues dealing with serperior, but considering all of these factors I think it is unhealthy for the tier. I plan on voting ban on serperior.
 
After using Serperior, I found it very, very effective at rolling through teams late game. Glare is a fantastic move that neutralizes most of its offensive checks. It has a great speed stat as stated before, and can live many neutral hits with its decent bulk.

While Hidden Power may be the limit to its coverage, Serperior can be paired easily with partners that fulfill it lack of coverage. There are few safe switch ins, and glare can always disrupt bulky mons.

I would vote ban.
 
After this suspect test, and after seeing Serperior many times, in many teams, I don't think this Pokémon has to be banned. Indeed, Serprior cannot kill a Beedrill, our wasp can switch-in on a Leaf Storm of Serperior without a +2, take another and OHKO with Poison Jab or U-Turn :

+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Beedrill: 125-148 (46.1 - 54.6%) -- 57.8% chance to 2HKO

This is just one example, a Mega-Sharpedo cannot switch in on a Serp, but he cans OHKO with Ice Fang after Stealth Rock :

252+ Atk Strong Jaw Mega Sharpedo Ice Fang vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 256-302 (87.9 - 103.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Crobat and Salamence can switch in easily too.

Even if Serp uses Glare on a switch of Beedrill, Crobat or Salamence, Serp cannot kill it after, but Crobat UU Support can :

80 Atk Crobat Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 270-320 (92.7 - 109.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

The bulk of Serperior isn't enough important to be banned of the UU.

So, I don't think Serperior centralize the metagame, and I vote for No ban.
 
Serperior isn't limited to JUST Leaf Storm and Glare. He has several moves which provide almost all the coverage he needs, so you don't have a point with those following calculations, since Serperior won't just try to continue firing off resisted Leaf Storms.

First off, Serperior doesn't even need to paralyze Salamence, it can just OHKO after it switches in on Leaf Storm with Dragon Pulse or Hidden Power Ice, unless Salamence is Scarfed.

Secondly, if Crobat or Mega Beedrill ARE paralyzed and switch in on Rocks and Leaf Storm, they're summarily KO'd by virtually any coverage move Serperior would use.

252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Beedrill: 57-68 (21 - 25%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Beedrill: 142-168 (52.3 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Dragon Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Beedrill: 200-237 (73.8 - 87.4%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 248 HP / 4 SpD Crobat: 57-68 (15.2 - 18.2%) -- possible 6HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Hidden Power Ice vs. 248 HP / 4 SpD Crobat: 283-335 (75.8 - 89.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Dragon Pulse vs. 248 HP / 4 SpD Crobat: 200-237 (53.6 - 63.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

And you DO know that if Sharpedo Mega Evolves and switches out, he then loses 90% of the time? He has to boost as non-Mega Sharpedo, THEN Mega Evolve, and he can't switch out once he has evolved.
 
After this suspect test, and after seeing Serperior many times, in many teams, I don't think this Pokémon has to be banned. Indeed, Serprior cannot kill a Beedrill, our wasp can switch-in on a Leaf Storm of Serperior without a +2, take another and OHKO with Poison Jab or U-Turn :

+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Beedrill: 125-148 (46.1 - 54.6%) -- 57.8% chance to 2HKO

This is just one example, a Mega-Sharpedo cannot switch in on a Serp, but he cans OHKO with Ice Fang after Stealth Rock :

252+ Atk Strong Jaw Mega Sharpedo Ice Fang vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 256-302 (87.9 - 103.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Crobat and Salamence can switch in easily too.

Even if Serp uses Glare on a switch of Beedrill, Crobat or Salamence, Serp cannot kill it after, but Crobat UU Support can :

80 Atk Crobat Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 270-320 (92.7 - 109.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

The bulk of Serperior isn't enough important to be banned of the UU.

So, I don't think Serperior centralize the metagame, and I vote for No ban.
Problem with them getting glared isn't that it affects their ability to kill Serperior...

Once they are glared, unless you run a cleric with Heal Bell/Aroma, they're now pretty much crippled for the remainder of the game. MegaBee is especially screwed, as his speed is what defines what he is. And if you do have a cleric, you pretty much grant Serp a free switch-in to get off another Storm/Glare/Etc.
 

Empress

Warning: may contain traces of nuts
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
Serp is for nerdZzZ, once more reason to keep it :)
Although it sure is a trouble maker if i say so myself. But i have had no problem with it, so i will be voting for the Kepp
"I never had problems with it" is exactly the kind of mentality suspect tests try to avoid. Just because one's team matches up well against the suspect does NOT by any stretch of the imagination make the suspect not broken. Considering Serp can effortlessly plow its way through much of the metagame and even put a dent in its supposed "counters" thanks to Glare, I would say it's much more than just a troublemaker.
 
After this suspect test, and after seeing Serperior many times, in many teams, I don't think this Pokémon has to be banned. Indeed, Serprior cannot kill a Beedrill, our wasp can switch-in on a Leaf Storm of Serperior without a +2, take another and OHKO with Poison Jab or U-Turn :
It can hit Beedrill with Glare on the switch in, thus crippling it for another Pokemon to take it on later in the match.

+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Beedrill: 125-148 (46.1 - 54.6%) -- 57.8% chance to 2HKO
Why would a Serperior be running a Modest nature? Besides, this is a Pokemon who has a quadruple resistance to the move. As stated before, Glare is an excellent stop to Mega Beedrill and it must then be wary of switching in. Also, in a hypothetical situation, Serperior could hit it with Glare, Substitute as it uses U-turn, and then rack up more Leaf Storm damage. However, this is a rare occurrence and it's not very plausible to beat Mega Beedrill with Serperior.

This is just one example, a Mega-Sharpedo cannot switch in on a Serp, but he cans OHKO with Ice Fang after Stealth Rock :

252+ Atk Strong Jaw Mega Sharpedo Ice Fang vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 256-302 (87.9 - 103.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Again, Sharpedo has to worry about Glare as well. Glare -> Leaf Storm beats Serperior easily. If it's already in, then yes it will check it, but why are you using Sharpedo to beat Serperior? What about the instance where Serperior is running Synthesis and uses it on the turn that Sharpedo uses Protect, which it will, and then is no longer easily beaten without a roll. Sharpedo is an incredibly unsafe way to stop it.

Crobat and Salamence can switch in easily too.

Even if Serp uses Glare on a switch of Beedrill, Crobat or Salamence, Serp cannot kill it after, but Crobat UU Support can :

80 Atk Crobat Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 270-320 (92.7 - 109.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Erm, Glare is the entire reason they can't switch in. Serperior is not meant to KO everything and it's not meant to stay in on any of these Pokemon. It's supposed to Glare and then leave them to be easily picked off by another teammate. What stops them after these are crippled / KOed?

The bulk of Serperior isn't enough important to be banned of the UU.
Bulk is not a factor in Seprerior's banning, it's Serperior's raw power and Speed, and ability to cripple nearly all of its counters via Glare.

So, I don't think Serperior centralize the metagame, and I vote for No ban.
It has a few checks, that are all crippled by Glare mind you, and can dish out large amounts of damage at every turn. It's a banworthy Pokemon in my opinon.
 
It seems to me that there are two questions at the beginning of a suspect. One, "does the pokemon overcentralize the metagame?". This is the question that is slavishly adhered to in a lot of threads like this. It is my opinion that once that question is posed, there is a sizable contingent that tends to search for ways to answer "yes" at the expense of any alternative. However, I think that this is a bit of a misleading question to base a suspect test on in this generation and metagame. From my experience, there are simply too many strong threats in any given tier, all of which become exceedingly popular through time, that you will quite literally never have a tier where the top mons are not, in some sense, centralizing. For example in the current UU climate, if you do not have an answer to Suicune, you will lose the game. It is as simple as that. Do I think Suicune should be banned? No, I do not. Similarly, if you do not have an answer to Serperior, you will lose (again, from my experience, far less so than other S rank threats in this tier).

It is easy, and a bit misleading, from my perspective to throw around a lot of calcs and jargon. Simply put, when a suspect mon is discussed, it seems to me that the theoretical situation involving that mon always assumes the worst case scenario when facing it. In this particular test, Serperior was always at 100%, always hit every move, always predicted correctly on switch ins with Glare, always just so happened to be running the HP that countered whatever was being talked about. I don't buy it, really. I think this is why suspect tests are useful, because in my playing I did not have that experience - when facing Serperiors, I could switch, predict, play around them much the same any other mon. No, I didn't always have a binary counter, but I do not think that is a bad thing. I enjoy the metagame where prediction, deception and ruse are prized over copying an RMT and using your designated switchins turn after turn. I found it both enjoyable, and not terribly difficult, to predict whether the Serp was going to use Glare, or Leaf Storm, or Dragon Pulse. And in some situations I had to sacrifice a mon to regain momentum against Serp, that is simply part of the game and is a constant in any given tier. Knowing when and where to do so is a skill that should be promoted, not an option that is derided because you didn't have a 1 to 1 counter to switch in.

So with all of this in mind, I return to that original question. Frankly, answering re: the centralization of a mon is, to me, both boring and misleading. The discussion around it in these million post long threads is obfuscating and often disingenuous (whether that be purposeful or not). So instead on the ladder I thought it'd be better to see the answer to a different questions, "is the tier more fun with this pokemon in it?". There are many mons that I think make tiers much less fun. But UU with Serperior is more offensive, faster paced, encourages prediction and creativity. All of those factors mean a more interesting, and less boring metagame to me. Simply put, you're unlikely to have a 100+ turn bore fest with a Serp on either team.

With all of this in mind, I vote no ban on Serperior in UU.
 

Sam

i say it's all just wind in sails
is a Battle Simulator Admin Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnus
One thing I'd like to say regarding Glare:

Glare is a great move on Serperior. However, it cannot be used to completely dismiss Serperior's checks. I see a lot of people say that, for a certain mon (Crobat, Beedrill, etc.) that Serperior can simply glare on the switch and cripple it. This is true. This is also completely disregarding the sort of risk that happens using Glare. Serperior isn't going to enjoy eating a +1 Ice Beam from Suicune or an Ice Punch from Mega Swampert (the bulky waters it is supposed to be forcing out) when it Glares expecting the Crobat to be coming in. Glare is definitely a great tool, yes. It just shouldn't be used to completely dismiss a lot of Serperior's checks.
 
One thing I'd like to say regarding Glare:

Glare is a great move on Serperior. However, it cannot be used to completely dismiss Serperior's checks. I see a lot of people say that, for a certain mon (Crobat, Beedrill, etc.) that Serperior can simply glare on the switch and cripple it. This is true. This is also completely disregarding the sort of risk that happens using Glare. Serperior isn't going to enjoy eating a +1 Ice Beam from Suicune or an Ice Punch from Mega Swampert (the bulky waters it is supposed to be forcing out) when it Glares expecting the Crobat to be coming in. Glare is definitely a great tool, yes. It just shouldn't be used to completely dismiss a lot of Serperior's checks.
That's exactly what I wanted to say in many fewer words.
 
Not really a major point or anything, but even if you do mispredict the switch and go for Glare and they stay in, you do still have a 25% chance of them being fully paralyzed, and I've seen that a couple of times where Serp has gotten away with spamming Glare because of this. Not that that in itself is game breaking.
 
So instead on the ladder I thought it'd be better to see the answer to a different questions, "is the tier more fun with this pokemon in it?".
This has never and will never be a question that we address. Fun is subjective. I thought UU Beta with Diggersby and Crawdaunt was tremendous fun, but they are and were both horribly broken. The fact of the matter is that Serperior IS centralizing, and whether or not you think the tier becomes stale thanks to that is irrelevant, because building a "fun" tier takes back seat to building a balanced tier.

Sam is 100% correct in saying that assuming Serperior always predicts correctly and always is at 100% is a fallacy (as seen when I tried running Glare Serperior, I didn't land a single Glare on a Crobat or other check/counter), but that doesn't make Serperior any less dangerous. When Salamence was banned in November, a large reason was his ability to carry Iron Tail, which would instantly destroy any Fairy that tried to switch in after a boost, despite Iron Tail's very poor accuracy. It's a different scenario (accuracy, which is out of the players' control, vs prediction, which is obviously in the players' control), but somewhat analogous. It's not 100% effective every time, but it's pretty mindblowingly powerful when it does work out.
 
I just barely missed out on the coil needed but I would like to point out that most of serperior's "counters" can be be taken out with a combination of leaf storm followed by hp rock. I didn't even run full so atk. investment on my serperior but with life orb and rocks it took on crobat and most of its other threats also it learns Dragon pulse to deal with dragons. It makes dealing with steel types almost impossible but even with that it can still put in so much work with when teamed with a steel check. I would just like to point that out.
 
Sigh the threads all degenerate this into the end. Please don't troll players who actually main this tier by voting no ban for heck of it. Serperior is clearly broken and I see no reason NOT to ban it. I will definately be voting to ban.
 

reachzero

the pastor of disaster
is a Senior Staff Member Alumnusis a Top CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
One thing I'd like to say regarding Glare:

Glare is a great move on Serperior. However, it cannot be used to completely dismiss Serperior's checks. I see a lot of people say that, for a certain mon (Crobat, Beedrill, etc.) that Serperior can simply glare on the switch and cripple it. This is true. This is also completely disregarding the sort of risk that happens using Glare. Serperior isn't going to enjoy eating a +1 Ice Beam from Suicune or an Ice Punch from Mega Swampert (the bulky waters it is supposed to be forcing out) when it Glares expecting the Crobat to be coming in. Glare is definitely a great tool, yes. It just shouldn't be used to completely dismiss a lot of Serperior's checks.
This is true, of course, and in this sense there can be 50/50s based on skill, how well the opponent's team is constructed, etc. The problem in this situation is that there is not equal risk on each side of the 50/50--if Serperior is heavily damaged or killed in that scenario, he has at least paralyzed the Pokemon that stayed in, which admittedly is only a small benefit, and the player most likely still has opportunities to win the game. On the other hand, should Mega Swampert or +1 Suicune eat a Leaf Storm, it's going to be rather difficult to deal with the opponent's Fire types, Mega Aero, etc. And if Crobat, Mega Bee, etc. do get paralyzed, you often lose outright, to Serperior itself. Any time a Pokemon presents you with a 50/50 chance to outright lose at six Pokemon to six, a chance you get only if you are very skilled and have have a well-constructed team, I consider that Pokemon unbalanced in the metagame.
 
The problem that I have with Serperior is that the predictability is essential. As Sam said before, Glare on Serp is a great tool, but shouldnt be used as a well my check is absolutely done, so Serp is clearly broken. I think there are more threatening qualities than Glare. I think the combination of a High BP moves tbat doubles as a Nasty Plot is what makes Serp so threatening, where safe switch ins are limited to quad resists and RK. Serp isnt versatile, but it has the tools to succeed right at its leafy claws.

I voted Keep BL since it is centralizing, but it was tough to be honest. I thinkthe line between broken and top tier mon were kind of murky. I think Prediction is a key aspect of battling and doesnt rely on hax. It caN turn a terrible team matchup into a great match. Serp puts in a lot of offensive pressure and makes people think twice before switching in, which is a characterisitic of any offensive mon. I did enjoy Serp though in this Suicune/Crobat heavy meta. It punished Sticky Web teams and could steamroll through teams that werent prepared for it. But, that last sentence is true for most sweepers tbh including CroCune.

But, ultimately it came own to me comparing other sweepers to Serp, and barring Lucario, mkst sweepers had several checks that were available to all playstyles. CroCune can be checked by Mega Amphy, Helioisk, etc.. or defensive teams could use chesnaught, gastrodon, etc..

Outsidebof thr few checks that are available and have been mentioned already, there really arent too many ways for teams to reliably check a boosted Serp.
 
Sigh the threads all degenerate this into the end. Please don't troll players who actually main this tier by voting no ban for heck of it. Serperior is clearly broken and I see no reason NOT to ban it. I will definately be voting to ban.
Are you not paying attention? All the people saying "no ban" are actually giving valid reasons for doing so. They're not trolling, and I see no reason why you would say that... Really, your comment is the one that's unconstructive.
 
Ok actually I was wrong I take that back. I apologize for posting in hast,what I MEANT to say was that in spite of arguments against the ban the fact is that Serperior almost invalidates stall as a play style and forces it to run obscure checks such as Goodra to remain relevant,now this wouldn't be a problem if it wasn't so fast,but the combination of speed and power allows it to put in work versus Stall and offense alike,ignoring of course a few counters/hard checks.
 

Hogg

grubbing in the ashes
is a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Staff Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnus
Stall can afford to run things like Amoongus or bulky Goodra in a way that most playstyles can't, though. Bulky Crobat or MAero have also gained in popularity on stall, especially as they help check SD Hera, and stall pretty much always has cleric support to keep Glare from being too crippling. As someone who plays a fair bit of stall in UU, running niche counters to dangerous threats is kind of par for the course.

I voted to keep Serp BL for the reasons I posted earlier, but the biggest thing I dislike about the Serp meta is how homogeneous balance teams look under it. Stall is certainly hit hard by Serperior, but if it somehow ends up staying in the tier, the playstyle will adapt around it soon enough.
 
Yeah I mean I know that stall runs niche stuff to beat threats but running Goodra is going a lil far. Bulky Crobat/MAero have been decent on the stalls I've been using.
 

Kiyo

the cowboy kid
is a Forum Moderatoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Top Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Alright, seeing as voting is coming to a close and I haven't posted my thoughts in this thread, I figure its about time.

So seeing as I haven't played UU in quite a long time, I made an effort to use several different teams and playstyles, both with and without Serperior, while laddering for suspect reqs. From simply playing with and against Serperior, my initial thought is that it is not broken. All of the teams I used on ladder utilized different ways of handling Serperior that were not exclusive to that role, I used Pokemon such as Bronzong, Rotom-H, Roserade, Crobat, Mega Aerodactyl, Goodra, and Tailwind Whimsicott to give my teams adequate ways to dispose of Serperior and other large threats to the tier. I'm not neccessarily convinced that you need to run any of these Pokemon to keep Serperior in check either, several other things such as a full health Entei can revenge kill even a +2 Serperior. I think the biggest problem I encountered when using Serperior was actually trying to correctly predict checks and counters switching in. I view this in an almost identical light to what Sam said, if you allow Serperior to take an unwanted hit from something you opt to Glare instead of Leaf Storming, because you predicted a check switching in, it becomes much more managable. I don't think any good player is able to correctly predict all of these situations and come out on top reliably enough that Serperior is broken. The main arguments I can see regarding Serperiors brokenness are regarding Glare, its coverage moves, and its over-centralization. I don't think having to correctly predict 50/50s warrants brokenness, if Serperior opts for more utility over a coverage move it opens itself up to a plethora of new checks and counters, so I don't see this as a valid reason for it being broken, and I certainly don't think Serperior centralizes the metagame any more than it already was because at least 3 of the teams I used while laddering were from friends and made for a pre-Serperior metagame. I just don't think any of the arguments for Serperior being banned are strong enough to warrant it, which is why I have voted to unban Serperior. I feel that with the ladder experience I gained, and through reading this thread I've come to an informed decision. Thanks for reading my thoughts and I'd love to hear any criticism of the points I've made.
 
I just thought to myself something regarding Serperior (note: this post is not pro or against ban)-
many posts talked about Serperior most noticeable ability to boost and attack simultaneously, and maybe while UU(and in fact the pokemon franchise as a whole) had never seen something that boosted up to +2 in one turn in such a way, but we always had a similar method to attack and boost simultaneously in Moxie!
many of those posts pointed out that unlike other set-up sweepers, one could not switch-out to a death fodder in order to prevent/threat the set-up, because Serperior will get the boost regardless in addition to the kill. Moxie acts the same, as one cannot sac his death fodder as the Moxie user will get both the kill and and the boost. Sure, the moxie user cannot boost without getting the kill but usually a player will send the moxie user against something it can 1hko, meaning the opponent must switch to something that can bulk the hit in order to prevent the boost. (or let something die and RK)
What limits the effectiveness of most current UU's moxie users is their low speed and no means to boost it(think honchkrow, krookodile, heracross) and in contrast, Serperior holds a fantastic unboosted speed tier which alone enhances to it's pseudo-moxie sweeping abilities.

Another example I want to bring regarding the moxie comparison is sure, Serperior can neutralize its "low speed" weakness with glaring opposing Crobat, M-Bee, etc but even after glaring it must run away, while Honchkrow ,pre-Lucario meta, had a very effective way to neutralize its low speed via Sucker Punch, meaning unlike Seperior it didn't ran away versus faster switch-ins.
 
Sleepless only thing to note since im short on time. I thought the whole moxie vs. Serp argument. Doubling your stats vs. Nabbing a plus 1 is a huge difference. Tbis same move is a 130 bp move without stab. If you consider all other moxie users, no other mon can boast this fact. Willlook at rest of post later.
 
Comparing Serperior to Moxie is a false equivalency. Ignoring the disparity of the stat boosts, the Moxie user still has to get the kill to net the boost, a hurdle Serperior does not have to cross. When you switch your Bronzong in on an Outraging Salamence, the number you saw the first time is the number you'll see every time, within limits of damage variance and ignoring crits. For Serperior, you have to have an outright immunity to Leaf Storm to avoid taking a much larger amount the next turn (100, 50, and 33% more, to be exact). That's why Serperior gets through traditional special walls like Florges, Umbreon, and Blissey.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top