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I mean I just want a retest bc I joined Little Cup solely to get suspect Reqs for the TC badge, having no care for the unstable metagame my rash decision could make.
In reality the PSA is really important for those who did what the strike through says. I'm not going to advocate for TangMa unbans since (despite the fact I play the meta now a bit and recognize theyre both broken) I didn't play the meta enough to formulate an opinion. If you joined our wonderful tier for this suspect, talk about what you want to see happen in regards to this suspect's meta, not a meta half a year ago.
I'm actually backing this. If you didn't actually play in those metas, please don't regurgitate old anti-ban arguments that display your lack of metagame knowledge/experience. I'm just gonna start deleting posts that display this ignorance.
I'm actually backing this. If you didn't actually play in those metas, please don't regurgitate old anti-ban arguments that display your lack of metagame knowledge/experience. I'm just gonna start deleting posts that display this ignorance.
I agree, since most People currently don't have any experience with tangma (or yangela) and probably do not know how much of a monster yanma is.
Plus, for everyone suggesting missy to come back, please don't, Most experienced players hate that thing with a passion, and RIP my teams when it was still around.
Yeah stop tthink everyrying to get missy banned. It was an incredibly centralizing mon that occupied the highest relevant unboosted speed tier, broke through EVERYTHING with NP, and had like 5 different sets that could easily put it in S rank individually.
If you think having to run Scarfpawn on every team and praying your opponent doesn't run colbur is fun, and didn't play missy era, PLEASE stop Nomming it. If you are experienced like apt-get I think everyone wants to hear your reasoning.
Ive played this ladder for a long time and while Misdreavus was a huge threat, I didn't agree with the ban at the time. fighting types can currently dominate all of their switch ins. fighting types currently reduce the viability of normal types to a very large degree and with Misdreavus back fighting types would be checked and normal types have a purpose.
as for yanma it also checks fighting types to a degree (can't switch in on stone edge), but compound eyes hypnosis is broken as fuck. fuck that thing.
Yeah stop tthink everyrying to get missy banned. It was an incredibly centralizing mon that occupied the highest relevant unboosted speed tier, broke through EVERYTHING with NP, and had like 5 different sets that could easily put it in S rank individually.
If you think having to run Scarfpawn on every team and praying your opponent doesn't run colbur is fun, and didn't play missy era, PLEASE stop Nomming it. If you are experienced like apt-get I think everyone wants to hear your reasoning.
[13:10:47] Kingmidas:I mean variant of np
[13:10:53] Kingmidas:as sub/taunt np with hp fighting
[13:11:00] Kingmidas:beats everything
[13:11:07] Kingmidas:including porygon if running bj and taunt
[13:11:16] Kingmidas:you need 18 sdef lickitung
[13:11:21] Kingmidas:and no SR up
[13:11:29] +apt-get ⒶⒻⓀ:except that
[13:11:33] Kingmidas:and no wisp
[13:11:36] +apt-get ⒶⒻⓀ:this missy lacks a lot of setup opportunities
[13:11:42] +apt-get ⒶⒻⓀ:and loses a lot of the utility of WoW
[13:11:45] Kingmidas:y
[13:11:56] Kingmidas:that missy is meant to take a hit
[13:12:00] Kingmidas:so it usually runs bj
[13:12:10] Kingmidas:I'm gonna run a calc on missy v missy without eviolite
[13:13:32] +apt-get ⒶⒻⓀ:something people
[13:13:37] +apt-get ⒶⒻⓀ:forget a lot bout HP fighting missy
[13:13:50] +apt-get ⒶⒻⓀ:is that the item makes it a lot more weak to a bunch of threats
[13:13:55] +apt-get ⒶⒻⓀ:like fletchling
[13:13:56] +apt-get ⒶⒻⓀ:timburr
[13:14:03] +apt-get ⒶⒻⓀ:even fucking scraggy
[13:14:18] +apt-get ⒶⒻⓀ:it can't use dgleam vs magnemite anymore
[13:14:21] +apt-get ⒶⒻⓀ:to remove the berry juice
[13:14:42] Kingmidas:true
[13:14:54] Kingmidas:but berry juice beats porygon
[13:15:03] Kingmidas:and p sure you need to run 13 attack lickitung
[13:15:05] Kingmidas:to 2HKO
[13:15:06] +apt-get ⒶⒻⓀ:... And loses to all of the other threats
[13:15:14] +apt-get ⒶⒻⓀ:yes, beating porygon is nice
[13:15:18] +apt-get ⒶⒻⓀ:but then your sweep is gone
[13:15:24] Kingmidas:it loses to vullaby maybe
[13:15:27] +apt-get ⒶⒻⓀ:because you can't deal with a lot of threats
[13:15:31] +apt-get ⒶⒻⓀ:yeah vullaby too
[13:15:48] Kingmidas:wisp hp fighting then
[13:15:52] +apt-get ⒶⒻⓀ:even things like
[13:15:53] +apt-get ⒶⒻⓀ:larvesta
[13:16:03] +apt-get ⒶⒻⓀ:have an easy time vs bj missy
[13:16:05] +apt-get ⒶⒻⓀ:because you can deal like
[13:16:06] +apt-get ⒶⒻⓀ:80% damage
[13:16:10] Kingmidas:people overestimate missy's strength
[13:16:12] Kingmidas:tbh
[13:16:24] Kingmidas:it can't OHKO random threats with some bulk and eviolite
[13:16:30] Kingmidas:and yeah like larvesta
[13:16:35] Kingmidas:deals a ton
[13:16:36] +apt-get ⒶⒻⓀ:larvesta easily tanks a hit
[13:16:39] +apt-get ⒶⒻⓀ:from +2 missy
[13:16:43] +apt-get ⒶⒻⓀ:and dish back the damage
[13:16:48] Kingmidas:and can switch into
[13:16:54] Kingmidas:it early game if you want
[13:16:57] +apt-get ⒶⒻⓀ:even random shit like taillow
[13:17:01] Kingmidas:cause it can handle the wisps
[13:17:02] +apt-get ⒶⒻⓀ:have an easy time vs bj missy
[13:17:04] Kingmidas:and hp fightings
[13:17:06] Kingmidas:people may blast
[13:17:09] Kingmidas:yeah I risk
[13:17:11] +apt-get ⒶⒻⓀ:yea
[13:17:12] Kingmidas:the taillow speed tie
[13:17:13] Kingmidas:a lot
[13:17:18] +apt-get ⒶⒻⓀ:and it's not like you can use foo
[13:17:20] +apt-get ⒶⒻⓀ:to handle it
[13:17:22] +apt-get ⒶⒻⓀ:or pawn
[13:17:24] Kingmidas:yeah
[13:17:30] Kingmidas:hm
[13:17:35] Kingmidas:you've changed my mind
[13:17:46] Kingmidas:keep missy free
[13:17:48] +apt-get ⒶⒻⓀ:not even talking about things like riolu
[13:17:55] +apt-get ⒶⒻⓀ:even fucking foo can revenge kill it
[13:17:59] +apt-get ⒶⒻⓀ:because regenerator
[13:18:00] +apt-get ⒶⒻⓀ:helps a lot
[13:18:12] +apt-get ⒶⒻⓀ:why are people treating misdreavus like the fucking holy grail
[13:18:21] +apt-get ⒶⒻⓀ:It's one of LC's greatest pokémon but it has its fair share of problems too
[/spoiler]
You can't use WispEvio without easily being revenge killed or hard stopped by missy's reliable checks. You can't use BJ + HP fight without losing a lot of setup opportunities and being unable to beat fights / get shit on by p much any eviolite mon.
Countering Missy is very hard. Checking it is piss-easy to do (you don't have to use scarf pawn). Any evio mon tanks a +2 Shadow Ball, and p much every scarfer ever can KO misdreavus with a strong STAB move once it has been weakened by the thing it's setting up on (you're not reliably setting up on anything without losing 50% health MINIMUM).
Misdreavus' lack of reliable recovery is the thing that's holding it back the most, and that aspect makes it manageable in the LC meta. I feel like people saying it's too overwhelming only run balance teams with no mons exceeding 17 speed... It's not because you haven't thought of any way to effectively check missy that it's broken.
For once, we have a stable metagame, that much is true. I believe we've had it since we first chose not to ban something the community thought was broken, and the likelihood of us suspecting anything right now is very low, considering the total votes for "nominate nothing" is around 70, and the number of votes for second place (which is BP I think) is currently just over 30. Having stability in a metagame before the second game(s) in a generation come out is something that really doesn't happen nowadays, and the fact that Little Cup, of all the standard formats, is the one to do this before any other, is really saying something.
Given that the metagame is stable, the question of "what do we do now?", is simply answered. "We" don't need to do anything, given that what "we" do is improve the state of the metagame. An alternative question, would be, "what do individuals do now? Essentially, individuals should proceed the way we would after any suspect test, but I believe everyone should place an emphasis on learning more and improving our community.
The true appeal in stable metagame is that it is truly competitive, meaning that in any given battle, the more skilled player will win 9/10 times. I believe that this metagame is ideal for improving ourselves as players, since not only is it easy to learn, it is easy to learn from. I can't really say much on what we should learn or how we can learn, because it is different for everybody, but I think it should be said that we can learn something from our metagame.
Users can also take the time to focus on improving our community. There is no doubt that we have players that do not possess 'ideal' behavior (look at the LC room), and there is no doubt that we have players who are not as skilled at battling or do not possess as much knowledge about the metagame as the rest of the community (look at the lower ladder). Everyone should take the time to set good examples for those who behave poorly, and teach those who don't know as much about the metagame. Not that we haven't in the past, but users can put even more effort into it now that we don't need to improve the state of the metagame. Personally, I think anybody who has a good knowledge of the metagame and has proven that they are committed to it should be a mentor or tutor (props to those who already have). People don't have to do that alone though; starting or contributing to projects is a great way to help improve our community by providing resources.
edit: this is in response to blara btw, I wrote this like 6+ hours but was revising stuff/was busy
[13:10:47] Kingmidas:I mean variant of np
[13:10:53] Kingmidas:as sub/taunt np with hp fighting
[13:11:00] Kingmidas:beats everything
[13:11:07] Kingmidas:including porygon if running bj and taunt
[13:11:16] Kingmidas:you need 18 sdef lickitung
[13:11:21] Kingmidas:and no SR up
[13:11:29] +apt-get ⒶⒻⓀ:except that
[13:11:33] Kingmidas:and no wisp
[13:11:36] +apt-get ⒶⒻⓀ:this missy lacks a lot of setup opportunities
[13:11:42] +apt-get ⒶⒻⓀ:and loses a lot of the utility of WoW
[13:11:45] Kingmidas:y
[13:11:56] Kingmidas:that missy is meant to take a hit
[13:12:00] Kingmidas:so it usually runs bj
[13:12:10] Kingmidas:I'm gonna run a calc on missy v missy without eviolite
[13:13:32] +apt-get ⒶⒻⓀ:something people
[13:13:37] +apt-get ⒶⒻⓀ:forget a lot bout HP fighting missy
[13:13:50] +apt-get ⒶⒻⓀ:is that the item makes it a lot more weak to a bunch of threats
[13:13:55] +apt-get ⒶⒻⓀ:like fletchling
[13:13:56] +apt-get ⒶⒻⓀ:timburr
[13:14:03] +apt-get ⒶⒻⓀ:even fucking scraggy
[13:14:18] +apt-get ⒶⒻⓀ:it can't use dgleam vs magnemite anymore
[13:14:21] +apt-get ⒶⒻⓀ:to remove the berry juice
[13:14:42] Kingmidas:true
[13:14:54] Kingmidas:but berry juice beats porygon
[13:15:03] Kingmidas:and p sure you need to run 13 attack lickitung
[13:15:05] Kingmidas:to 2HKO
[13:15:06] +apt-get ⒶⒻⓀ:... And loses to all of the other threats
[13:15:14] +apt-get ⒶⒻⓀ:yes, beating porygon is nice
[13:15:18] +apt-get ⒶⒻⓀ:but then your sweep is gone
[13:15:24] Kingmidas:it loses to vullaby maybe
[13:15:27] +apt-get ⒶⒻⓀ:because you can't deal with a lot of threats
[13:15:31] +apt-get ⒶⒻⓀ:yeah vullaby too
[13:15:48] Kingmidas:wisp hp fighting then
[13:15:52] +apt-get ⒶⒻⓀ:even things like
[13:15:53] +apt-get ⒶⒻⓀ:larvesta
[13:16:03] +apt-get ⒶⒻⓀ:have an easy time vs bj missy
[13:16:05] +apt-get ⒶⒻⓀ:because you can deal like
[13:16:06] +apt-get ⒶⒻⓀ:80% damage
[13:16:10] Kingmidas:people overestimate missy's strength
[13:16:12] Kingmidas:tbh
[13:16:24] Kingmidas:it can't OHKO random threats with some bulk and eviolite
[13:16:30] Kingmidas:and yeah like larvesta
[13:16:35] Kingmidas:deals a ton
[13:16:36] +apt-get ⒶⒻⓀ:larvesta easily tanks a hit
[13:16:39] +apt-get ⒶⒻⓀ:from +2 missy
[13:16:43] +apt-get ⒶⒻⓀ:and dish back the damage
[13:16:48] Kingmidas:and can switch into
[13:16:54] Kingmidas:it early game if you want
[13:16:57] +apt-get ⒶⒻⓀ:even random shit like taillow
[13:17:01] Kingmidas:cause it can handle the wisps
[13:17:02] +apt-get ⒶⒻⓀ:have an easy time vs bj missy
[13:17:04] Kingmidas:and hp fightings
[13:17:06] Kingmidas:people may blast
[13:17:09] Kingmidas:yeah I risk
[13:17:11] +apt-get ⒶⒻⓀ:yea
[13:17:12] Kingmidas:the taillow speed tie
[13:17:13] Kingmidas:a lot
[13:17:18] +apt-get ⒶⒻⓀ:and it's not like you can use foo
[13:17:20] +apt-get ⒶⒻⓀ:to handle it
[13:17:22] +apt-get ⒶⒻⓀ:or pawn
[13:17:24] Kingmidas:yeah
[13:17:30] Kingmidas:hm
[13:17:35] Kingmidas:you've changed my mind
[13:17:46] Kingmidas:keep missy free
[13:17:48] +apt-get ⒶⒻⓀ:not even talking about things like riolu
[13:17:55] +apt-get ⒶⒻⓀ:even fucking foo can revenge kill it
[13:17:59] +apt-get ⒶⒻⓀ:because regenerator
[13:18:00] +apt-get ⒶⒻⓀ:helps a lot
[13:18:12] +apt-get ⒶⒻⓀ:why are people treating misdreavus like the fucking holy grail
[13:18:21] +apt-get ⒶⒻⓀ:It's one of LC's greatest pokémon but it has its fair share of problems too
[/spoiler]
You can't use WispEvio without easily being revenge killed or hard stopped by missy's reliable checks. You can't use BJ + HP fight without losing a lot of setup opportunities and being unable to beat fights / get shit on by p much any eviolite mon.
Countering Missy is very hard. Checking it is piss-easy to do (you don't have to use scarf pawn). Any evio mon tanks a +2 Shadow Ball, and p much every scarfer ever can KO misdreavus with a strong STAB move once it has been weakened by the thing it's setting up on (you're not reliably setting up on anything without losing 50% health MINIMUM).
Misdreavus' lack of reliable recovery is the thing that's holding it back the most, and that aspect makes it manageable in the LC meta. I feel like people saying it's too overwhelming only run balance teams with no mons exceeding 17 speed... It's not because you haven't thought of any way to effectively check missy that it's broken.
I'm not really sure what you mean when you say it's checked by a lot of scarfers. Only scarfers around that hit it decently hard are stuff like Cranidos and Knock Off mons. I've never really seen revenge killing as a viable argument anyways, because it doesn't usually negate the advantage your opponent has.
I'll concede that NP Shadow Ball is typically weaker than what most people assume, but tbh Missy's bulk + bj make up for it, putting it at full or close to after first kill, undermining most attempts to revenge anyways.
Also lmao Missy is still a pain in the ass with 19 speed mons/ scarfers because you're typically down one and your opponent would be dealing with a choice locked mon, which is pretty easy
I'm not really sure what you mean when you say it's checked by a lot of scarfers. Only scarfers around that hit it decently hard are stuff like Cranidos and Knock Off mons. I've never really seen revenge killing as a viable argument anyways, because it doesn't usually negate the advantage your opponent has.
Scarf Pawniard, Scarf Mienfoo, Scarf Scraggy, Abra, Scarf Drilbur, Scarf Gastly, Scarf Porygon, Sturdymons, Scarf Larvesta, Carvanha, Scarf Shellder, Fletchling...
Pretty much every scarfer has a move that will hit misdreavus for at least 50% damage, if not more. The vast amount of pokemon that can take a hit and deal back the damage also make misdreavus' sweep not as easy as people make it sound like. Not even talking about reliable misdreavus checks here, which basically make it impossible to sweep if you don't have the correct set.
I'll concede that NP Shadow Ball is typically weaker than what most people assume, but tbh Missy's bulk + bj make up for it, putting it at full or close to after first kill, undermining most attempts to revenge anyways.
Missy's bulk? It's 2HKOed by everything without eviolite. Berry Juice isn't as good as you claim either, as missy will take a hit when setting up (activating BJ) and take another hit afterwards (+2 shadow ball isn't OHKOing anything with eviolite that isn't carvanha). You're down AT BEST to around 50% health, at which point it's easy to revenge you.
Also lmao Missy is still a pain in the ass with 19 speed mons/ scarfers because you're typically down one and your opponent would be dealing with a choice locked mon, which is pretty easy
What's the problem with being down one pokemon? Missy hasn't done its job at all, and switching out just means that your sweep is ruined. Plus, since you aren't running eviowisp, Missy has no way to support its team anymore apart from unboosted shadow balls. I don't see how dealing with a choice locked mon is easy either, or does anything to make Missy broken. It's not like scarfers are piece of shit that does nothing outside of beating missy like elgyem was during krowtite.
I think what he's saying is that if you don't 1-2HKO Missy with shit it will almost assuredly beat a Pokemon or two. I think a guaranteed kill or two makes it rather obviously bannable.
Also, keep in mind, revenge killing is not a valid argument unless the revenge killer is relatively threatening (ie in comparison to the pokemon being revenged).
I think what he's saying is that if you don't 1-2HKO Missy with shit it will almost assuredly beat a Pokemon or two. I think a guaranteed kill or two makes it rather obviously bannable.
Also, keep in mind, revenge killing is not a valid argument unless the revenge killer is relatively threatening (ie in comparison to the pokemon being revenged).
I think what he's saying is that if you don't 1-2HKO Missy with shit it will almost assuredly beat a Pokemon or two. I think a guaranteed kill or two makes it rather obviously bannable.
Also, keep in mind, revenge killing is not a valid argument unless the revenge killer is relatively threatening (ie in comparison to the pokemon being revenged).
I don't see how essentially playing 5-0 (you don't want to switch misdreavus into anything because otherwise you won't be able to setup later on) makes it obviously bannable. Misdreavus is a good sweeper, however, KOing 1-2 Pokemon is something a lot of pokemon can do (mixed smash tirtouga, SD fletch, LO abra...). You have to keep in mind that, to switch misdreavus in, you need a safe situation, which either means switching in after a KO or allowing a free move to your opponent by using U-turn / Volt Switch on something that missy can safely set up on (AKA not things mienfoo / chinchou can beat).
Plus, admitting misdreavus can only KO 1-2 Pokemon most of the time is far from the argument presented for Misdreavus' ban, AKA the one that says Misdreavus can easily sweep its opponent with its plethora of sets.
Let's take a brief look at Misdreavus' power. For this I used the damage calc's 1vsAll function, which is very useful. In this situation, we're going to assume Misdreavus is at +2, and rocks are up, which is by no means an unlikely scenario. This is purely for offensive capabilities, so there are several mons who revenge kill it. Misdreavus' spread is 18 Special Attack, 19 Speed.
After Stealth Rock, there are no mons that will always avoid a 2HKO from +2 Misdreavus. None. The ones that are not always 2HKOed are as follows:
Chespin (LC Defensive) Dazzling Gleam 40 - 48% 37.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Munchlax (LC RestTalk). HP Fighting 40 - 53.3% 68.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Wooper (LC Unaware). Shadow Ball 40 - 52% 56.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Lickitung (LC Wish Support). HP Fighting 42.8 - 57.1% 96.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Chespin (LC Spikes Support). Dazzling Gleam 43.4 - 52.1% 80.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Every other mon is always 2HKOed by some move. OHKOs start not too far afterwards. For the ones that fail to be OHKOed, I only list their names and specific set instead of damage and best move. For this, a 6.3% chance to be OHKOed after Stealth Rock is treated as a 2HKO for all intents and purposes.
Looking at Misdreavus' defensive side, I then used the Allvs1 function. For this, Misdreavus is eviolite, 23 HP, 12 Def, 15 SpDef. Rocks are up on Misdreavus' side of the field.
This is what OHKOs Missy.
Azurill (LC Trick Room Sweeper). Knock Off 113 - 134.7% guaranteed OHKO
Deino (LC Choice Scarf). Crunch 104.3 - 130.4% guaranteed OHKO
Carvanha (LC GOTTA GO FAST). Crunch 100 - 134.7% guaranteed OHKO
Corphish (LC Choice Band). Crabhammer 95.6 - 121.7% guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Pawniard (LC Standard). Knock Off 86.9 - 113% 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Pawniard (LC Choice Scarf). Knock Off 86.9 - 113% 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Scraggy (LC Choice Scarf). Knock Off 86.9 - 113% 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Darumaka (LC Choice). Flare Blitz 82.6 - 104.3% 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Doduo (LC Life Orb Bird). Knock Off 78.2 - 100% 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Gastly (LC Life Orb). Shadow Ball 78.2 - 113% 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Mienfoo (LC Life Orb) Knock Off 78.2 - 100% 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
There are also a smattering of 6.3% chances to OHKO after stealth rock.
What appears on both lists?
Um, nothing. That's not good. Also note that only Carvanha, Deino, Azurill, and Corphish will always OHKO.
Of course I've already stated that I am anti-retest, but these are largely twistable to either side. Also, the damage calc isn't perfect, so there are a few mons which may have sets that beat Misdreavus (most notably is probably stunky). This is simply to help get a picture of Misdreavus' capabilities.
Let's take a brief look at Misdreavus' power. For this I used the damage calc's 1vsAll function, which is very useful. In this situation, we're going to assume Misdreavus is at +2, and rocks are up, which is by no means an unlikely scenario. This is purely for offensive capabilities, so there are several mons who revenge kill it. Misdreavus' spread is 18 Special Attack, 19 Speed.
After Stealth Rock, there are no mons that will always avoid a 2HKO from +2 Misdreavus. None. The ones that are not always 2HKOed are as follows:
Chespin (LC Defensive) Dazzling Gleam 40 - 48% 37.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Munchlax (LC RestTalk). HP Fighting 40 - 53.3% 68.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Wooper (LC Unaware). Shadow Ball 40 - 52% 56.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Lickitung (LC Wish Support). HP Fighting 42.8 - 57.1% 96.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Chespin (LC Spikes Support). Dazzling Gleam 43.4 - 52.1% 80.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Every other mon is always 2HKOed by some move. OHKOs start not too far afterwards. For the ones that fail to be OHKOed, I only list their names and specific set instead of damage and best move. For this, a 6.3% chance to be OHKOed after Stealth Rock is treated as a 2HKO for all intents and purposes.
Looking at Misdreavus' defensive side, I then used the Allvs1 function. For this, Misdreavus is eviolite, 23 HP, 12 Def, 15 SpDef. Rocks are up on Misdreavus' side of the field.
This is what OHKOs Missy.
Azurill (LC Trick Room Sweeper). Knock Off 113 - 134.7% guaranteed OHKO
Deino (LC Choice Scarf). Crunch 104.3 - 130.4% guaranteed OHKO
Carvanha (LC GOTTA GO FAST). Crunch 100 - 134.7% guaranteed OHKO
Corphish (LC Choice Band). Crabhammer 95.6 - 121.7% guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Pawniard (LC Standard). Knock Off 86.9 - 113% 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Pawniard (LC Choice Scarf). Knock Off 86.9 - 113% 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Scraggy (LC Choice Scarf). Knock Off 86.9 - 113% 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Darumaka (LC Choice). Flare Blitz 82.6 - 104.3% 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Doduo (LC Life Orb Bird). Knock Off 78.2 - 100% 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Gastly (LC Life Orb). Shadow Ball 78.2 - 113% 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Mienfoo (LC Life Orb) Knock Off 78.2 - 100% 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
There are also a smattering of 6.3% chances to OHKO after stealth rock.
What appears on both lists?
Um, nothing. That's not good. Also note that only Carvanha, Deino, Azurill, and Corphish will always OHKO.
Of course I've already stated that I am anti-retest, but these are largely twistable to either side. Also, the damage calc isn't perfect, so there are a few mons which may have sets that beat Misdreavus (most notably is probably stunky). This is simply to help get a picture of Misdreavus' capabilities.
What are these calcs trying to prove? Misdreavus won't be at +2 at full health. Saying it won't be OHKOed by much but that it can 2HKO a lot is irrelevant while you fail to OHKO the opponent and get KOed back because you've been weakened.
What are these calcs trying to prove? Misdreavus won't be at +2 at full health. Saying it won't be OHKOed by much but that it can 2HKO a lot is irrelevant while you fail to OHKO the opponent and get KOed back because you've been weakened.
There are many, many situations where you can force the opponent out with Misdreavus. An obvious one would be a situation with Slowpoke on the field, and Misdreavus coming in on a double switch or a death. If slowpoke decides to stay in it risks an OHKO from shadow ball.
Let's also say they have a scarf Pawniard. However, if they choose to bring in their scarf pawniard right away, predicting a Nasty Plot, Misdreavus can use HP Fighting, which will OHKO it, leaving the opponent in a situation where they are down their Misdreavus check. Alternatively, Misdreavus can also turn out to be a Substitute variant and use substitute on the switch, which results in Pawniard falling with less need for prediction. There's also the chance it's running a support set with Will-o-Wisp, which cripples scarf Pawn.
The safest move, in this case, is to switch to something else which can break Misdreavus' possible sub. If, however, you lack a scarfer that can take any hit from a +0 Misdreavus or one of the listed mons who are 2HKOed by a +2 Missy, then Misdreavus will be killing something as long as they predict correctly.
Besides, look at the defensive list. That is not a long list, and many of them do not exist on common teams. A Pokemon like Misdreavus, which can force at least 1-for-1s pretty much every time it is used, is much better than anything currently in the meta.
What are these calcs trying to prove? Misdreavus won't be at +2 at full health. Saying it won't be OHKOed by much but that it can 2HKO a lot is irrelevant while you fail to OHKO the opponent and get KOed back because you've been weakened.
Except with BJ that can very well be the case. You set up, they attack. You attack, they attack, you heal. This scenario happens vs common mons, such as Spritzee.
Iirc merritt you're forgetting crani which can KO evio missy
Except with BJ that can very well be the case. You set up, they attack. You attack, they attack, you heal. This scenario happens vs common mons, such as Spritzee.
As far as I know, Spritzee is pretty much the only common pokemon against which this situation happens (and even then, you risk the SpA drop from moonblast, which will prevent the 2HKO without SR.) Also, spritzee 2HKOes with moonblast if SR is on misdreavus' side: 12 SpA Spritzee Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Misdreavus: 9-12 (40.9 - 54.5%) -- 68.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
There are many, many situations where you can force the opponent out with Misdreavus. An obvious one would be a situation with Slowpoke on the field, and Misdreavus coming in on a double switch or a death. If slowpoke decides to stay in it risks an OHKO from shadow ball.
Slowpoke is far bulkier than you make it out to be, taking 90% of the time 65% HP from a shadow ball. You could easily Thunder Wave / scald the misdreavus at that point, and then switch out for Regenerator recovery. This would also allow you to scout Misdreavus' set without any real risk.
Let's also say they have a scarf Pawniard. However, if they choose to bring in their scarf pawniard right away, predicting a Nasty Plot, Misdreavus can use HP Fighting, which will OHKO it, leaving the opponent in a situation where they are down their Misdreavus check. Alternatively, Misdreavus can also turn out to be a Substitute variant and use substitute on the switch, which results in Pawniard falling with less need for prediction. There's also the chance it's running a support set with Will-o-Wisp, which cripples scarf Pawn.
Switching in Pawniard would be a stupid move in this case, considering any of Misdreavus' options would probably beat it. Considering my previous post, Misdreavus' set would probably be scouted, at which point you can think up a correct switch-in. In the worst situation, you will have to sacrifice a pokemon, and then revenge kill Misdreavus / cripple another mon on the opposing team with Knock Off. A reasonable tradeoff, considering you'd be down one mon but will have heavily damaged the opponent's Misdreavus and knocked off an opposing 'mon. (Or you will have KOed misdreavus.)
Besides, look at the defensive list. That is not a long list, and many of them do not exist on common teams. A Pokemon like Misdreavus, which can force at least 1-for-1s pretty much every time it is used, is much better than anything currently in the meta.
My standards for being able to revenge something is being able to take a +2 shadow ball from full health without hazards (if we're considering misdreavus is at 100% health) and deal back at least 50% HP (the range misdreavus will generally be in after setting up).
As we can see, the entirety of the top 20 can check Misdreavus, with only three 'mons losing to EvioWisp. The argument that this is "not a long list, and many of them do not exist on common teams" is kinda flawed.
As far as I know, Spritzee is pretty much the only common pokemon against which this situation happens (and even then, you risk the SpA drop from moonblast, which will prevent the 2HKO without SR.) Also, spritzee 2HKOes with moonblast if SR is on misdreavus' side: 12 SpA Spritzee Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Misdreavus: 9-12 (40.9 - 54.5%) -- 68.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock.
I don't exactly follow the context of this argument, but a) isn't that at best a 3HKO assuming you get 2 max rolls (due to Berry Juice healing up). That's easy +4 and ~59% HP.
Switching in Pawniard would be a stupid move in this case, considering any of Misdreavus' options would probably beat it. Considering my previous post, Misdreavus' set would probably be scouted, at which point you can think up a correct switch-in. In the worst situation, you will have to sacrifice a pokemon, and then revenge kill Misdreavus / cripple another mon on the opposing team with Knock Off. A reasonable tradeoff, considering you'd be down one mon but will have heavily damaged the opponent's Misdreavus and knocked off an opposing 'mon. (Or you will have KOed misdreavus.)
Actually, plenty of common 'mons can beat Misdreavus, depending on the set.
Looking at the current top 20, here are:
My standards for being able to revenge something is being able to take a +2 shadow ball from full health without hazards (if we're considering misdreavus is at 100% health) and deal back at least 50% HP (the range misdreavus will generally be in after setting up).
As we can see, the entirety of the top 20 can check Misdreavus, with only three 'mons losing to EvioWisp. The argument that this is "not a long list, and many of them do not exist on common teams" is kinda flawed.
I don't exactly have time to scrutinize this list right now, but frankly I don't think I need to. On this topic, I see a few major logical flaws which stem from the Scarf Pawniard point you made.
The first thing I noticed is that most of these Pokemon need Misdreavus to have taken 50% damage. This, you responded with, was the "cost of setting up". However, if you actually think about what you're saying, you're glossing over the fact that Missy has ALREADY KOed one Pokemon. I think any "guaranteed KO" in modern LC (ie. Explosion/Protect/Ghost metagame was commonplace in ADV/DPP) is already absurd. This is compounded by my next points.
So you have a Misdreavus at 50% with +2 and a KO on your belt. Revenge killer time! I'm not going to argue with the revenge killers you listed but merely their relative threat level compared to Misdreavus. I know I'm repeating myself, but maybe people don't understand why this is important. If you are a revenge killer not named Gothita Pursuit, you NEED to be threatening to potential switch-ins (and Scarf Gothita and Pursuit have other problems, like being the easiest set up bait of all time). Otherwise Misdreavus can just switch out. 50% Misdreavus is still a major threat with its immunities and Wish support or Berry Juice activation left. It doesn't even need 50% HP to come in, KO something, and switch back out if your revenge killer is locked into something weak. Many Pokemon can't deal that 50% to Misdreavus in the first place, and it can Burn and revenge kill shit in its own right.
If your main point is revenge killers, you cannot reasonably claim that list is enough to keep Misdreavus banned considering how easy they are to switch into relative to Misdreavus and that they can only do their job once sacrificing a Pokemon.
When your arguments include "sacrificing a Pokemon to Knock Off Misdreavus is a good trade", doesn't that set off some alarms? In what world is that not "too good"?
My standards for being able to revenge something is being able to take a +2 shadow ball from full health without hazards (if we're considering misdreavus is at 100% health) and deal back at least 50% HP (the range misdreavus will generally be in after setting up).
As we can see, the entirety of the top 20 can check Misdreavus, with only three 'mons losing to EvioWisp. The argument that this is "not a long list, and many of them do not exist on common teams" is kinda flawed.
I do not know what you're thinking with half that list. Most of them are blatant lies. I'll assume Eviolite for most of them, as otherwise 50% would result in a full HP Misdreavus after the whole BJ activation thing.
Pawniard: Misdreavus outspeeds all non-scarfed and can either burn (if afraid of Sucker Punch) or OHKO with HP Fighting.
Abra: I admit, I saw this and was confused as hell. First of all, this absolutely requires Misdreavus be weakened or else you stand no chance, and second it relies on a speed tie. Or you run shadow ball, which is a subpar move on Abra.
240 SpA Abra Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Misdreavus: 9-12 (40.9 - 54.5%) -- 9.8% chance to 2HKO
Deals 50% exactly 6.3% of the time.
Drilbur: Misdreavus can outspeed and burn.
236 Atk Mold Breaker burned Drilbur Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Misdreavus: 8-9 (36.3 - 40.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 236 SpA Misdreavus Shadow Ball vs. 36 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Drilbur: 19-24 (82.6 - 104.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO, kills after burn damage
Only scarfed Drilbur can win , really, and aside from the fact that you're now locked into Earthquake, it doesn't OHKO even Berry Juice Missy.
Fletchling: Once again, Missy can burn, though not before taking a hit.
196+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Misdreavus: 9-12 (40.9 - 54.5%) -- 9.8% chance to 2HKO
Doesn't exactly strike me as overly powerful, though, and Missy can OHKO back with Thunderbolt.
Ponyta: Again, relies on a speed tie, but at least this one can deal over 50% to eviolite Missy. But if you lose the speed tie, it kills itself with recoil, and Missy's killed two Pokemon in return for one.
Foongus: What. Just, how? I have to assume you're referring to Spore, but if Missy is Sub it beats that. Plus
0 SpA Foongus Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Misdreavus: 7-9 (31.8 - 40.9%) -- 17.6% chance to 3HKO
+2 236 SpA Misdreavus Shadow Ball vs. 124 HP / 160 SpD Eviolite Foongus: 15-18 (60 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Even after recovery Foongus is still extremely likely to die.
Gastly: Only Scarf Gastly. And if both are at +0 and full HP, Eviolite Misdreavus wins.
200 SpA Gastly Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Misdreavus: 14-20 (63.6 - 90.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
236 SpA Misdreavus Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 80 SpD Gastly: 30-36 (157.8 - 189.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Timburr: Again, what? No. No it does not "generally revenge every Missy set"
+2 236 SpA Misdreavus Dazzling Gleam vs. 76 HP / 156 SpD Eviolite Timburr: 22-28 (88 - 112%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
Top tier mate. Sorry, but this is one of those blatant lies I was talking about.
Diglett: No. Will-o-wisp wins, or just Sucker Punch mindgames, resulting in a possibly +6 Misdreavus at exactly the same HP. Rock Slide also does very little.
Ferroseed: Misdreavus burns, Misdreavus 2HKOs with Shadow ball. Nope. Plus, Bullet seed has a good chance to not even deal your requested 50% damage to Eviolite Missy.
Porygon: Yes, absolutely. This is the best Missy answer, although it does lose to full health itemless Misdreavus.
Dwebble: Burn, then Shadow Ball OHKOs. Nope, not even SS Dwebble.
Magnemite: Requires that either all hazards are down or to be scarfed with Missy at fairly low HP.
240+ SpA Magnemite Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Misdreavus: 9-12 (40.9 - 54.5%) -- 9.8% chance to 2HKO
Croagunk: Fair enough, although also susceptible to burn.
Tirtouga: I'm fairly sure you mean Shell Smash, in which case you need hazards down. Also, susceptible to burn on both sets.
Chinchou: Not really, or at least not without scarf. Scarf also fails to OHKO full health (aka post BJ) Missy.
232+ SpA Chinchou Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Misdreavus: 13-16 (59 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 236 SpA Misdreavus Shadow Ball vs. 76 HP / 148 SpD Eviolite Chinchou: 15-18 (60 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Chinchou Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Misdreavus: 7-10 (31.8 - 45.4%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO
+2 236 SpA Misdreavus Shadow Ball vs. 76 HP / 0 SpD Chinchou: 25-31 (100 - 124%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Please do back your claims up, as most people would take them at face value, due to your respected knowledge of the meta.
I do not know what you're thinking with half that list. Most of them are blatant lies. I'll assume Eviolite for most of them, as otherwise 50% would result in a full HP Misdreavus after the whole BJ activation thing.
Pawniard: Misdreavus outspeeds all non-scarfed and can either burn (if afraid of Sucker Punch) or OHKO with HP Fighting.
Abra: I admit, I saw this and was confused as hell. First of all, this absolutely requires Misdreavus be weakened or else you stand no chance, and second it relies on a speed tie. Or you run shadow ball, which is a subpar move on Abra.
240 SpA Abra Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Misdreavus: 9-12 (40.9 - 54.5%) -- 9.8% chance to 2HKO
Deals 50% exactly 6.3% of the time.
Drilbur: Misdreavus can outspeed and burn.
236 Atk Mold Breaker burned Drilbur Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Misdreavus: 8-9 (36.3 - 40.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 236 SpA Misdreavus Shadow Ball vs. 36 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Drilbur: 19-24 (82.6 - 104.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO, kills after burn damage
Only scarfed Drilbur can win , really, and aside from the fact that you're now locked into Earthquake, it doesn't OHKO even Berry Juice Missy.
Fletchling: Once again, Missy can burn, though not before taking a hit.
196+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Misdreavus: 9-12 (40.9 - 54.5%) -- 9.8% chance to 2HKO
Doesn't exactly strike me as overly powerful, though, and Missy can OHKO back with Thunderbolt.
Ponyta: Again, relies on a speed tie, but at least this one can deal over 50% to eviolite Missy. But if you lose the speed tie, it kills itself with recoil, and Missy's killed two Pokemon in return for one.
Foongus: What. Just, how? I have to assume you're referring to Spore, but if Missy is Sub it beats that. Plus
0 SpA Foongus Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Misdreavus: 7-9 (31.8 - 40.9%) -- 17.6% chance to 3HKO
+2 236 SpA Misdreavus Shadow Ball vs. 124 HP / 160 SpD Eviolite Foongus: 15-18 (60 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Even after recovery Foongus is still extremely likely to die.
Gastly: Only Scarf Gastly. And if both are at +0 and full HP, Eviolite Misdreavus wins.
200 SpA Gastly Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Misdreavus: 14-20 (63.6 - 90.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
236 SpA Misdreavus Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 80 SpD Gastly: 30-36 (157.8 - 189.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Timburr: Again, what? No. No it does not "generally revenge every Missy set"
+2 236 SpA Misdreavus Dazzling Gleam vs. 76 HP / 156 SpD Eviolite Timburr: 22-28 (88 - 112%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
Top tier mate. Sorry, but this is one of those blatant lies I was talking about.
Diglett: No. Will-o-wisp wins, or just Sucker Punch mindgames, resulting in a possibly +6 Misdreavus at exactly the same HP. Rock Slide also does very little.
Ferroseed: Misdreavus burns, Misdreavus 2HKOs with Shadow ball. Nope. Plus, Bullet seed has a good chance to not even deal your requested 50% damage to Eviolite Missy.
Porygon: Yes, absolutely. This is the best Missy answer, although it does lose to full health itemless Misdreavus.
Dwebble: Burn, then Shadow Ball OHKOs. Nope, not even SS Dwebble.
Magnemite: Requires that either all hazards are down or to be scarfed with Missy at fairly low HP.
240+ SpA Magnemite Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Misdreavus: 9-12 (40.9 - 54.5%) -- 9.8% chance to 2HKO
Croagunk: Fair enough, although also susceptible to burn.
Tirtouga: I'm fairly sure you mean Shell Smash, in which case you need hazards down. Also, susceptible to burn on both sets.
Chinchou: Not really, or at least not without scarf. Scarf also fails to OHKO full health (aka post BJ) Missy.
232+ SpA Chinchou Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Misdreavus: 13-16 (59 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 236 SpA Misdreavus Shadow Ball vs. 76 HP / 148 SpD Eviolite Chinchou: 15-18 (60 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Chinchou Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Misdreavus: 7-10 (31.8 - 45.4%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO
+2 236 SpA Misdreavus Shadow Ball vs. 76 HP / 0 SpD Chinchou: 25-31 (100 - 124%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Please do back your claims up, as most people would take them at face value, due to your respected knowledge of the meta.
Please stop considering missy as always being at 100%,I understand this kind of statement can go both ways but its obvious what hes considering in his statements, and same with what you're saying but eviolite is sorta shittier except for it allowing you to run hp fighting and dazzling gleam. Missy has great natural bulk, but its forced to run max/max spa and speed and therefore is limited. Let me move onto the list.
Pawniard: Still does its job when its burned, spamming knock off, not to mention you still lose to it if you're not hp fighting. Scarf is an amazing revenge killer as it can actually switch in assuming you don't fuck up and get it knocked out by an hp fighting, which is a prediction argument and not worth discussing.
Abra: Shadow ball, but yeah speed ties, bj loses to it if you can manage to keep it out of sub protection.
Drilbur: I can sorta agree but berry juice doesn't run wisp.
Fletchling: A check is not something perfect, not to mention it can switch into everything but wisp and do a decent job 2HKOing eviolite after SR and slaying missy even if its behind a sub. Tbolt missy is horrible.
Ponyta can switch into it before its set up, and make people risk speed ties, while not exactly healthy it counts as a check.
Foongus: Giga Drain, spore, clear smog, taunt loses to clear smog + giga drain, sub bj has to win some more 50/50s and wisp cries. Also as apt put it, not hard to scout set.
Timburr: is a great check, but not a counter, but apt never claimed it was. Also heres the correct calc.
+2 236 SpA Misdreavus Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 236+ SpD Eviolite Timburr: 20-24 (83.3 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
(20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 22, 22, 22, 22, 22, 22, 22, 22, 24)
Ferroseed: It got knock off with oras js. T-wave/knock off + bullet seed can win or come really close to.
For the rest its simply, a revenge killer doesn't automatically murder something, especially something as good as missy, part of the reason it was banned, though over exaggerated.
I don't exactly follow the context of this argument, but a) isn't that at best a 3HKO assuming you get 2 max rolls (due to Berry Juice healing up). That's easy +4 and ~15% HP.
actually, you have around a 50% chance to be at +3 after boosting, due to Moonblast's SpA drop chance. You also have a decent chance of dropping SpA by two during those three turns, but yeah, the matchup is actually going to end up as misdreavus being around 15% HP since spritzee can easily tank a +4 shadow ball.
The first thing I noticed is that most of these Pokemon need Misdreavus to have taken 50% damage. This, you responded with, was the "cost of setting up". However, if you actually think about what you're saying, you're glossing over the fact that Missy has ALREADY KOed one Pokemon. I think any "guaranteed KO" in modern LC (ie. Explosion/Protect/Ghost metagame was commonplace in ADV/DPP) is already absurd. This is compounded by my next points.
"guaranteed KOes" are common in LC. LO Abra gets a guaranteed KO against pretty much every team, LO Vulpix gets at least one KO per match since fire blast can't be switched into, Diglett can easily get guaranteed kills against anything the opponent switches in if it's weak to EQ, Clamperl... They're common. It's not because this is a setup sweeper, which may be a different case from most "guaranteed" mons, that Misdreavus is broke.
So you have a Misdreavus at 50% with +2 and a KO on your belt. Revenge killer time! I'm not going to argue with the revenge killers you listed but merely their relative threat level compared to Misdreavus. I know I'm repeating myself, but maybe people don't understand why this is important. If you are a revenge killer not named Gothita Pursuit, you NEED to be threatening to potential switch-ins (and Scarf Gothita and Pursuit have other problems, like being the easiest set up bait of all time).
I don't see how any of these mons can't threaten the opposition. Most of these are either strong 'mons that can pretty much threaten any switch-in that isn't a dedicated counter, and the others are support 'mons with a lot of options under their belt to threaten the opponent (Porygon, Ferroseed, etc).
I don't think we should talk about being threatening to potential switch-ins for most of the 'mons in the top 20: this is incredibly team matchup-reliant, and it's not like any of those mons are similar to things like Elgyem during krowtite, which couldn't really threaten anything. This situation is about checking Misdreavus alone: I already proved it's not as difficult as it sounds.
Otherwise Misdreavus can just switch out. 50% Misdreavus is still a major threat with its immunities and Wish support or Berry Juice activation left. It doesn't even need 50% HP to come in, KO something, and switch back out if your revenge killer is locked into something weak. Many Pokemon can't deal that 50% to Misdreavus in the first place, and it can Burn and revenge kill shit in its own right.
I'm not talking about scarfers here: Most of the 'mons I mentioned can perfectly check Misdreavus with Eviolite. As such, the threat of being locked into something weak isn't present.
50% Misdreavus isn't really that threatening: It can't switch into anything at all. "50% Misdreavus is still a major threat with its immunities and Wish support or Berry Juice activation left": Misdreavus' immunities aren't really that abusable at low HP, apart from the normal immunity. Fighters can easily knock off while tanking an unboosted Dazzling Gleam, and ground-types can threaten Missy through other means (Mold Breaker for Drilbur, faster rock slide / shadow claw for Diglett). (I won't discuss the berry juice activation point, as I'm assuming we're talking about a situation where Misdreavus' sweep was successfully prevented and it used up its BJ.)
The only way Misdreavus can really be threatening is by running the EvioWisp set, so the BJ + HP fight set is pretty useless from now on, apart from unboosted Shadow Balls. Shadow Ball isn't that strong: It barely 2HKOes berry juice 'mons most of the time. It's also easy to deal the 50% damage to Misdreavus, as I have proven with the list I posted earlier.
If your main point is revenge killers, you cannot reasonably claim that list is enough to keep Misdreavus banned considering how easy they are to switch into relative to Misdreavus and that they can only do their job once sacrificing a Pokemon.
A lot of these Pokemon, like I said earlier, are very threatening. I don't think calling the entire Top 20 "easy to switch into" is a good thing: this argument is, once again, matchup reliant.
When your arguments include "sacrificing a Pokemon to Knock Off Misdreavus is a good trade", doesn't that set off some alarms? In what world is that not "too good"?
I don't think it's about "sacrificing a Pokemon to Knock Off Misdreavus is a good trade". It's more about "Sacrificing a Pokemon to stop an opposing sweep and KO the opposing 'mon / Cripple the opposing team". It doesn't really set off any alarm to me: 1vs1 is a good trade, and this situation happens with a lot of 'mons. See: LO foo, Fletchling, LO Abra, Skrelp...
I don't see why we should treat Misdreavus differently for doing the same thing many Pokemon in the metagame can do, AKA getting a guaranteed kill.
actually, you have around a 50% chance to be at +3 after boosting, due to Moonblast's SpA drop chance. You also have a decent chance of dropping SpA by two during those three turns, but yeah, the matchup is actually going to end up as misdreavus being around 15% HP since spritzee can easily tank a +4 shadow ball.
With SR, Spritzee needs a 1/16 roll on BOTH of attacks after BJ to get a 3HKO. However, it's far more likely to be a 4HKO. Without SR, it's likely to be a 5HKO. It's actually more than likely for Misdrevus to switch in, NP and attack twice and still be at 60% HP. If Spritzee doesn't have full HP / SR damage, it can go to +4 and have 60% HP since it OHKOes at that point.
"guaranteed KOes" are common in LC. LO Abra gets a guaranteed KO against pretty much every team, LO Vulpix gets at least one KO per match since fire blast can't be switched into, Diglett can easily get guaranteed kills against anything the opponent switches in if it's weak to EQ, Clamperl... They're common. It's not because this is a setup sweeper, which may be a different case from most "guaranteed" mons, that Misdreavus is broke.
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I don't see why we should treat Misdreavus differently for doing the same thing many Pokemon in the metagame can do, AKA getting a guaranteed kill.
196+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Misdreavus: 16-19 (69.5 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
196+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Misdreavus: 10-13 (43.4 - 56.5%) -- 59.4% chance to 2HKO
196+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Abra: 22-27 (115.7 - 142.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
196+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Vulpix: 18-22 (94.7 - 115.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO [19 HP]
196+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gastly: 19-24 (100 - 126.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
This point crumbles when you consider that Abra (and co) is 25/15/55, has no immunities (except to Toxic/WoW) and has horrible defensive typing and can't set up / gain momentum from forcing things out. Not only is it harder to do without the wiggle room of bulk, but you can predict a move and gain nothing from Abra and it's harder to do because it forces less Pokemon out. It loses to a shit load of Pokemon 1v1 and especially can't do shit about priority. Misdreavus not only has the bulk moveset to deal with more Pokemon 1v1, and not only does Misdreavus have the bulk, ability, and typing to have ample switch in opportunity, but you're dealing with something much more terrifying after, whether its behind a Substitute or at +2.
I would put Gastly in that group before Vulpix, but for the sake of argument, compare Gastly and Misdreavus. One beats bulky fighting types, fletchling, etc. and one can't. The reason Misdreavus is ban-worthy and they are not is simply mathematical.
The guaranteed KO we're talking about doesn't cost a Pokemon to get it in and isn't easy to force it out. If Misdreavus was similar to Abra, it would be like Gastly. It's not.
I don't see how any of these mons can't threaten the opposition. Most of these are either strong 'mons that can pretty much threaten any switch-in that isn't a dedicated counter, and the others are support 'mons with a lot of options under their belt to threaten the opponent (Porygon, Ferroseed, etc).
I don't think we should talk about being threatening to potential switch-ins for most of the 'mons in the top 20: this is incredibly team matchup-reliant, and it's not like any of those mons are similar to things like Elgyem during krowtite, which couldn't really threaten anything. This situation is about checking Misdreavus alone: I already proved it's not as difficult as it sounds.
I'm not talking about scarfers here: Most of the 'mons I mentioned can perfectly check Misdreavus with Eviolite. As such, the threat of being locked into something weak isn't present.
I don't see myself going through the list of the Pokemon there so I'll admit they 'can' threaten an opposition but I think it's pretty obvious that things like Porygon and Ferroseed have easy as fuck switch-ins (like any bulky Fighting-type, Fire-type, Pawniard, etc). I know they have Thunder Wave, but it's not exactly the hardest thing to switch into. Timburr actually likes it.
Scarf Pawn can be set up on by Fletchling or any Fighting-type. Those are a few examples.
I think you inadvertently made my point for me in the bolded line. To be explicit, my point is that while it's not hard to live a +0 (or even +2) Shadow Ball with a full health Pokemon in a vacuum where Misdreavus has no option but to attack, that is essentially meaningless when you consider its application.
1) Misdreavus can switch out rather easily (which is why my point of being a relative (to Missy) threat it very relevant).
2) Most of the time, Misdreavus won't be at 100%, sure, but the same argument HAS to apply to those other Pokemon unless you're being forced to play 5v6. Lots of those Pokemon that survive Shadow Ball definitely can't after even minor residual damage.
3) Even if Missy had no viable switch-in, I wouldn't classify losing a Pokemon and being nearly KOed on your second as "not that difficult". You suffered a huge disadvantage.
50% Misdreavus isn't really that threatening: It can't switch into anything at all. "50% Misdreavus is still a major threat with its immunities and Wish support or Berry Juice activation left": Misdreavus' immunities aren't really that abusable at low HP, apart from the normal immunity. Fighters can easily knock off while tanking an unboosted Dazzling Gleam, and ground-types can threaten Missy through other means (Mold Breaker for Drilbur, faster rock slide / shadow claw for Diglett). (I won't discuss the berry juice activation point, as I'm assuming we're talking about a situation where Misdreavus' sweep was successfully prevented and it used up its BJ.)
First of all that's not a safe assumption. Misdreavus can force things out or just outright KO them - you don't always get to predict correctly. If you predict right and hit Misdreavus while it sets up against your whatever and sacrifice it, sure.
It can still tank U-turns, Spritzee's Moonblast, predicted coverage moves (like Rock Slide from Drilbur) and easily come in on Knocked Off Fighting-types' Drain Punch and KO them. 50% Misdreavus is more threatening than an Eviolite-less Mienfoo.
236 SpA Misdreavus Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 36 SpD Mienfoo: 18-22 (85.7 - 104.7%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
And, it can revenge kill things at worst, while taking another chunk out of something else. No, it can't sweep 6 100% mons with 50% unboosted Shadow Ball but it can sure as hell sweep through a weakened team with it.
I don't think it's about "sacrificing a Pokemon to Knock Off Misdreavus is a good trade". It's more about "Sacrificing a Pokemon to stop an opposing sweep and KO the opposing 'mon / Cripple the opposing team". It doesn't really set off any alarm to me: 1vs1 is a good trade, and this situation happens with a lot of 'mons. See: LO foo, Fletchling, LO Abra, Skrelp...
Except those Pokemon will get KOed and can be revenged and walled much more easily and only Fletchling can actually take any hit (barely). When's the last time you've actually had to sacrifice a Pokemon to stop Fletchling from sweeping? Just switch in your counter. Foo? just switch in your counter. Abra? hork a loogie at it. Misdreavus can plow through counters, has less of them, and in order to stop its sweep you need to rely on prediction and revenge killing rather than countering.
To say its the same thing is a gross exaggeration at best. Focusing on one stat of a Pokemon and still struggling to prove it's balanced is still pretty telling to me.
I'm going to throw this out there: I literally own the PS! alt "Free Yanma" and I find the hype train surrounding bringing it back to be disgruntling at absolute best.
As a brief aside to the really solid Misdreavus discussion going on right now, I want to address the inexplicable Yanma unban rally.
There are virtually no posts in the last 2 or 3 pages supporting bringing Yanma back, so I find the number of people voting for the bug back is absolutely astonishing. I would love to see some of the arguments for it, because so far, here's all I can see in the limited spots it does exist:
Yanma is healthy because we hate all the fighters!
Big Yanma checks didn't exist back then!
Heysup opposes Yanma unban, so maybe I can attack him?
Point 1 is beyond easy to refute; unbans don't happen because they could help the metagame. If something's changed on that, put in Jigglypuff, because I think that could help stop the rampant Fighting-types, as well. This argument for "unbans" in general is slightly part of the reason why I was afraid of the precedent set by v in Gen V when we unbanned Murkrow, Gligar, and Misdreavus-- the idea that unbans are a good idea. The circumstances were pretty different back then, and I think similarly, we should need some pretty extenuating circumstances before "unleashing a beast." Boredom should not be a reason.
Point 2 is silly, and fails to recognize how young Gen VI actually is as a metagame. As people have pointed out, many Yanma checks that we might use today (e.g. your walls such as Spritzee or your priority users such as Fletchling) were in high usage back then. Anyone who is a TangMa vet actually knows that Fletch virtually originated as a method of handling Speed Boost Yanma. As mentioned countless times, we also had Murkrow and my fave SpDef Icy Wind bulky Misdreavus to check it at the time.
The ad hominems against Heysup are out of hand, he is easily the most experienced LC player involved in the debate at this point and I think he is not getting half the respect he deserves right now and that should stop. Sorry for the brief rant.
The poor man is already gonna lose his bakery. Stop bullying him ;-;
But seriously, there's no way a person can try telling me that revenging is actually a suitable answer to Misdreavus. Uncounterable stuff like Cranidos are threatened by mons that can easily pose a similar threat, like Timburr and Pawniard.
Misdreavus ' revenge killers do not pose a similar threat, using the list that has been narrowed down. Anyone who played missy era will remember how one of the few revenge killers actually used was scarf Pawniard. This is because Pawn was a GUARANTEED threat to Misdreavus, whereas many other mons were not. mons like Foongus are situational at best, whereas mons like Timburr were easy to ko as they were used as checks for way too many offensive threats.
Dunno about you, But I don't wanna see another super centralized meta around missy.
In response to Ray Jay, I'd like to say that meta shifts are definitely a valid point to make. The issue is that no one is explaining why these meta shifts are significant, and that many people are misattributing popular trends as being any different than in metas before.
That's precisely why I agree with you though, because Fletch was EXTREMELY common back in the day. As were even better checks at the time. Meta shifts only really stand as a point when better checks weren't viable at the time, which isn't the case concerning a Yanma retest
Also if heysup were such a good player why didn't he go for 30k? Smh
