Ladder Balanced Hackmons

[MAMP]

Speaking of anti-Imposter Proteans, I might as well share a set I've been using:

Mewtwo-Mega-Y @ Spooky Plate
Ability: Protean
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Judgment
- Boomburst
- King's Shield
- Secret Sword

If Chansey switches in while you are ghost-type, you can just spam Judgment and they can't hurt you at all; even if they use Boomburst to become immune to Judge, they only have 5 pp. And even if they come in while you aren't ghost-type, you can anti-imposter this with literally any ghost-type; try running set-up moves on the ghost-type to take advantage of the free turns you get. Ghost/Fighting is phenomenal coverage, hitting everything in the tier for at least neutral damage, and getting super-effective damage on a lot of notable Pokemon, like Giratina, both Mewtwos, and steel-types. Boomburst hits neutral mons harder than anything else on the set, but it's not really necessary, and you might want to replace it with something else, like a set-up move or recovery.

 

[Lcass4919]

Protean has always been and always will be impossible to counter (aside from shedinja but that doesn't count), but the only reason it's not that OP is that it usually comes with several downsides, including:
1. 4MSS: You can't have perfect coverage, king's shield, recovery, and setup all on one set
2. Difficult to be imposter proof: Aside from stuff like Deo-A, which I would call imposter resistant rather than imposter proof because of the reliance on sash and stuff like uselesscrab's protean judgment set, it's pretty much impossible to have an imposterproof Protean user. Those that are imposter resistant, like UC's set, suffer from lack of proper coverage and are easy to wall.
3. Easy to revenge kill: This more or less goes hand in hand with point 1, if you use king's shield there's likely to be a pokemon that can wall your coverage, and if you don't use king's shield you are revenge killed by -ate

small nitpick, but mm2y actually can use imposter chans as their "imposterproof" since everyone runs it, and its actually quite effective at stopping mm2y

 

[Rumors]

I really dislike Protean on the grounds that it removes a Pokemon's typing as a reason to pick it over other Pokemon or to pick other Pokemon over it. However, despite how much I dislike it, that's not grounds to even suspect it as far as I know, so I just kinda have to suck it up and deal with it. Also, outside of a certain Protean Ytwo Lcass used in the pre-510 X/Y era that seemed to utterly laugh at my teams, I've never really had that much trouble with Protean as far as I can remember. I mean, there's certainly been plenty of times they've threatened my team pretty seriously, but usually I can answer them somehow without a specific "Protean Check/Counter".

 

[CactusCacti]

Protean is only really touching the broken like on the mega mewtwo's due of their insane offensive stats, making them hard to wall and play around without imposter.
And if you have something to trap and kill an imposter like a judgment magnet pull dialga, protean mewtwo can cause some seriously damage to the team afterwards.
In other mons, protean is generally good, but it doesnt really get a chance to shine as much, well apart from Deo-A cause of its sash shenigans.

However; Many people tend to also ignore proteans other use; Basicly the typing roulette. In general, I'd kinda be intrested to see some more mons actually abusing that, like making a support/defensive mon to abuse it could be pretty neat, I know I once used protean latias-mega as defensive supporter, and it worked pretty great cause you constantly became immune to your own status moves and imposters + other switch ins only managed to get themselves cripple'd.

 

[Lcass4919]

Protean is only really touching the broken like on the mega mewtwo's due of their insane offensive stats, making them hard to wall and play around without imposter.
And if you have something to trap and kill an imposter like a judgment magnet pull dialga, protean mewtwo can cause some seriously damage to the team afterwards.
In other mons, protean is generally good, but it doesnt really get a chance to shine as much, well apart from Deo-A cause of its sash shenigans.

However; Many people tend to also ignore proteans other use; Basicly the typing roulette. In general, I'd kinda be intrested to see some more mons actually abusing that, like making a support/defensive mon to abuse it could be pretty neat, I know I once used protean latias-mega as defensive supporter, and it worked pretty great cause you constantly became immune to your own status moves and imposters + other switch ins only managed to get themselves cripple'd.

ive actually tried using mega latias way back with the ev limit(this was before soul dew worked on it) and it really liked being able to curse, boomburst, recover and spore(i had safety goggles at the time),allthough now that im not stupid, id use a set more like curse, kings sheild, recover, and moonblast/oblivion wing. it was fun to use curse on defensive pokes who thought they walled my lati, and it definatly has plenty of bulk now that it gains soul dew.

 

[Uselesscrab]

ive actually tried using mega latias way back with the ev limit(this was before soul dew worked on it) and it really liked being able to curse, boomburst, recover and spore(i had safety goggles at the time),allthough now that im not stupid, id use a set more like curse, kings sheild, recover, and moonblast/oblivion wing. it was fun to use curse on defensive pokes who thought they walled my lati, and it definatly has plenty of bulk now that it gains soul dew.

The issue now is that Curse acts like non-Ghost Curse on the first turn, then it turns you into Ghost and the ensuing uses will be Ghost Curse. For this reason it might be better to use a Pokemon or moveset that can take better advantage of Curse boosts.

 

[Pikachuun]

Actually, don't run protean curse (The Immortal if this isn't already implemented)

 

[CactusCacti]

Actually, don't run protean curse (The Immortal if this isn't already implemented)

time to give Skill swap to protean users to check all the gira's

 

[Lcass4919]

Actually, don't run protean curse (The Immortal if this isn't already implemented)

lmao thats WORSE then curse acting like normal curse

 

[Rumors]

Some of you might remember the Type-guides I mentioned wanting to do and Water-type guide I posted a while back. Which I put on hold because 510 happened and then the metagame shifted around like crazy what with bans hitting and ORAS dropping. But anyway, I'm thinking starting that up again and I'm looking for two or three people to help me organize the Pokemon and moves on it and help with some sample sets on the Pokemon I'm not as familiar with. I still need to try to get permission for a separate topic so as to not clutter this thread and I'll still be doing the bulk of the writing, but a little help in organizing which Pokemon are notable and which are merely niche, among other things, would be great.

 

[I like donkeys]

Some of you might remember the Type-guides I mentioned wanting to do and Water-type guide I posted a while back. Which I put on hold because 510 happened and then the metagame shifted around like crazy what with bans hitting and ORAS dropping. But anyway, I'm thinking starting that up again and I'm looking for two or three people to help me organize the Pokemon and moves on it and help with some sample sets on the Pokemon I'm not as familiar with. I still need to try to get permission for a separate topic so as to not clutter this thread and I'll still be doing the bulk of the writing, but a little help in organizing which Pokemon are notable and which are merely niche, among other things, would be great.

This sounds interesting, but i'm not entirely sure what this is, are you creating psuedo-analysis' for BH Pokemon? If so then i'd happily help out :3

 

[Rumors]

This sounds interesting, but i'm not entirely sure what this is, are you creating psuedo-analysis' for BH Pokemon? If so then i'd happily help out :3

Sort of. The type guides explain a particular type's advantages and disadvantages and categorizes moves and Pokemon with that typing into Notable, Niche, Gimmick, and Do Not Use in relation to that typing (There's a few Pokemon who are more notable for one of the their typings and less for the other, like, say, Diancie-M).

Anyway, search managed to dig up the original post. Here's a rough draft I shared to give you an idea of what I was doing: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/balanced-hackmons.3489849/page-75#post-5683004

 

[I like donkeys]

Sort of. The type guides explain a particular type's advantages and disadvantages and categorizes moves and Pokemon with that typing into Notable, Niche, Gimmick, and Do Not Use in relation to that typing (There's a few Pokemon who are more notable for one of the their typings and less for the other, like, say, Diancie-M).

Anyway, search managed to dig up the original post. Here's a rough draft I shared to give you an idea of what I was doing: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/balanced-hackmons.3489849/page-75#post-5683004

Oh I see now :3
This looks fun and i'd gladly help out :D
So how are we gonna do this, are we all gonna work on and discuss one type at a time? Or are we gonna do our own types separately and check on eachother's work?

 

[Rumors]

Slow reply is slow, but the main thing I need help with is getting sets on Pokemon I don't/haven't used or really encountered and determining what Pokemon goes where since sometimes it's not exactly clear. For example, is Volcanion a niche Pokemon because of its typing or is a gimmick Pokemon?

I'll start a conversation here sometime today or in the next few days for it. Though, unless likes are an indication of "I want to help", so far you're the only one to offer.

 

[rortik]

So I invented it, and I'm getting some hate for it (particularly from my GF, see: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/balancedhackmons-220665511) and I agree it needs to go.

Registeel @ Leftovers
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Toxic
- Roost
- Roost
- Stealth Rock

It's basically a Chansey lure that immediately creates an infinite battle due to 2x Roost. There are nearly infinite variations of it.

I'm sorry I created it, I was just dicking around, but we need a way to ban this without ruining the legitimate strategy of baiting a Chansey in on a Steel Type, letting it KO the thing, then swapping to a Magnet Pull mon that can't be hurt by the Chansey, and setting up a sweep on it.

Either way, I'm sorry, but you gotta admit: it's was funny as hell at first.

I'm strongly in favor of a /offerdraw command, even though most trolls won't accept it... I'm particularly sorry to the poor Help Room mods that have no idea how BH works and have to deal with this.

Any ideas?

 

[Kit Kasai]

In my opinion either ban duplicate moves on pokemon or fix the pp glitch (preferably both for consistency's sake). I'm also up for having a draw option in battles, I don't see any problems with it anyway.

 

[Lcass4919]

So I invented it, and I'm getting some hate for it (particularly from my GF, see: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/balancedhackmons-220665511) and I agree it needs to go.

Registeel @ Leftovers
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Toxic
- Roost
- Roost
- Stealth Rock

It's basically a Chansey lure that immediately creates an infinite battle due to 2x Roost. There are nearly infinite variations of it.

I'm sorry I created it, I was just dicking around, but we need a way to ban this without ruining the legitimate strategy of baiting a Chansey in on a Steel Type, letting it KO the thing, then swapping to a Magnet Pull mon that can't be hurt by the Chansey, and setting up a sweep on it.

Either way, I'm sorry, but you gotta admit: it's was funny as hell at first.

I'm strongly in favor of a /offerdraw command, even though most trolls won't accept it... I'm particularly sorry to the poor Help Room mods that have no idea how BH works and have to deal with this.

Any ideas?

lmao. this strat counts as "infinite battle trolling" and is considered banned, although not on sim, verbatim (and maybe TI, though i'm not sure) can force loss you for running it. there's no concrete way of banning it atm without harming a playstyle.

In my opinion either ban duplicate moves on pokemon or fix the pp glitch (preferably both for consistency's sake). I'm also up for having a draw option in battles, I don't see any problems with it anyway.

its not actually a showdown glitch, its how the in game treats 2 of the same move from what i've heard.

 

[E4 Flint]

I hate to go into this, but seriously, "invented it"? It was made more than a year ago by multiple other people. Just look back in this very thread.

I would also be open to a draw option, even though from then on in every single game, no matter how badly someone is losing they'll want to offer draw. Oh well, it'll be fun rejecting them.

 

[rortik]

I hate to go into this, but seriously, "invented it"? It was made more than a year ago by multiple other people. Just look back in this very thread.

I would also be open to a draw option, even though from then on in every single game, no matter how badly someone is losing they'll want to offer draw. Oh well, it'll be fun rejecting them.

Whatever... Sorry I brought it to attention...

Does it really matter? XD

 

[Rumors]

there's no concrete way of banning it atm without harming a playstyle

There's a legit playstyle that uses identical moves on the same set?

 

[rortik]

lmao. this strat counts as "infinite battle trolling" and is considered banned, although not on sim, verbatim (and maybe TI, though i'm not sure) can force loss you for running it. there's no concrete way of banning it atm without harming a playstyle.


its not actually a showdown glitch, its how the in game treats 2 of the same move from what i've heard.

Actually when I used it in a ladder battle TI simply forced a tie, look at the replay I posted.

There's a legit playstyle that uses identical moves on the same set?

Send out this, set up a Shell Smash to bait a Chansey in:

Metagross-Mega @ Some item
Ability: Whatever the hell you want
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Zen Headbutt
- Earthquake
- Earthquake
- Shell Smash

Let it KO you, then switch to this:

Yveltal @ Leftovers
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Acupressure
- Substitute
- Baton Pass
- Stealth Rock

Set up everything, BP to:

Mewtwo-Mega-X @ Life Orb
Ability: Turboblaze
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- ExtremeSpeed
- Shadow Sneak
- Pursuit
- Thousand Arrows

Proceed to sweep.

Change MMX's moves to whatever you like, Pursuit isn't really necessary tbh. Just an example.

 

[Rumors]

But you don't even need to do that. You can just switch to Yveltal in that scenario and have over 20 turns to set-up on Chansey without the duplicate moves. Just replace the second Earthquake with something like Recover or heck, even Splash. No need to sacrifice, no need to give someone an infinite-stall set. Heck, I remember Flint (I think it was Flint) doing something similar with Jirachi and Magnet Pull Bisharp last gen and it did not require a sacrifice or duplicate moves. I think Adrian had a similar thing going with Jirachi and a Magnet Pull Umbreon too.

 

[tegrof19]

Doesn't the dialga + Xern core do this as well without using duplicate moves?

 

[Piccolo Daimao]

There's a legit playstyle that uses identical moves on the same set?

It's good for (legitimate) PP stall. Here's a legit set from I wuv you that was used in Classic Hackmons:

Pushin down (Deoxys-Speed) @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 25 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 30 HP / null Atk
- King's Shield
- Substitute
- Spite
- Spite

This set doesn't have to care about being PP Stalled out, because it will never Struggle. The entire purpose of this set (and the rest of the team actually) is to stall the opponent out of PP so that Deoxys Speed can live. It really needs its Leftovers, so the second Spite can't be replaced with Leppa + Recycle, and also Knock Off doesn't cripple it as much as it would cripple Leppa + Recycle. I think we can all agree that PP Stall is a viable strategy in Balanced Hackmons, and this is a perfect example of a good PP Stall set.

However, I do agree that this Chansey trapping Infinite Battle set is harmful to the meta, so maybe there should be a complex Arena Trap + Dual Moves ban. However, then people would just run Block/Spider Web, so I'm not sure that's the best solution either. It's a tough situation.

EDIT: MAGNET PULL NOT ARENA TRAP

 

[Pikachuun]

However, I do agree that this Chansey trapping Infinite Battle set is harmful to the meta, so maybe there should be a complex Arena Trap + Dual Moves ban. However, then people would just run Block/Spider Web, so I'm not sure that's the best solution either. It's a tough situation.

Arena Trap's already banned, the only way to pull this off is effectively by Magnet Pull + Steel + Double Moves