CAP 20 CAP 20 - Part 1 - Concept Assessment 2

[Qwilphish]

Hi, I know there is little time left but I still stand from the first Concept Assessment that CM / DD would be the best option for this CAP. The people in this thread don't seem to hate the option but the overall consensus seems to favor BU / DD because it is less likely to be broken. The problem with this is that although, yes, DD / BU is safer than this option, it is also much less likely to be successful due to similar checks for the two sets (as in unless we plan to target ALL physical walls, in which case we are super broke becuase we can beat the walls + sweep bc of DD, there will be little variance in beating the two sets's coutners). CM / DD addresses this issue by presenting completely different counters for each set, while still allowing each set to be checked simply because of the nature of revenging.

Assuming that the main choices are between BU or CM – CM / DD allows for each set to shine on its own, with no chance of overlap in counters and no combination of sets which makes it the better option. The potential of being broken that others have mentioned are unfounded imo simply because of the precedence that we have seen in OU. CM does not require a hefty Special Attack stat to the extent of being broken; if we want this CM user to be akin to the other CM users in OU then it will be quite the opposite – as Clefable and Sableye have shown (I know these Pokemon have other things going for them but this is just for the sake of argument) a high SpA is not needed to be successful. The only way I can see this CAP having problems is with movepool as the Defensive set will likely want recovery and decent defenses and the offensive one will want high BP moves and good coverage but this issue will occur whether or not we go with CM / DD so that issue is mostly moot.

Hopefully this post is enough to break the bandwagon that seems to has happened but being so close to the deadline I'm not too sure :s

(ps must say credit to ginga for bringing up my initial point in #cap)

 

[nyttyn]

Alright! 48 hours have passed, and it is time for a decision.

Our move combo to focus around will be Calm Mind + Dragon Dance. While Bulk Up + Dragon Dance also enjoyed a significant amount of popularity, the move combo has a large issue - most notably, physical walls will block both sets. Arguably, we will have a harder time during the stats section with this move combo, but that simply means we will have to be a bit more wary going into stats.

You have roughly 24 hours to discuss this move combo, and raise ideas about how CAP20 will utilize this combo, before we move onto the next stage.

 

[Birkal]

While I was initially for Dragon Dance + Bulk Up, now I'm not quite so sure. As others have mentioned, DD + BU is great because it gives players a pretty straightforward play-style: either you boost and sweep or boost and wallbreak. After rereading the concept, though, I'm inclined to think that DD + BU may not be the best way to go about addressing the concept. Our concept relies heavily on predictability and set discovery. I fear that limiting ourselves to a single offensive stat (either physical or special) will decrease our predictability considerably just by virtue of whatever STAB and coverage options we choose. While we can create extra versatility in the amount of moves a set can run, it doesn't really address the core idea of versatility through boosting moves...

DD + BU reminds me of BW Haxorus, where you could choose either DD or SD to late game sweep based on the opponents' composition. Heck, people chose both boosting moves for quite some time just because of the versatility it added. But BU doesn't work quite like SD, in that we have to be much more intentional about our counters for each set. That's why I think Calm Mind + Dragon Dance overall fits this concept better. We can shift the focus on physical bulkiness to wallbreak provided by Bulk Up to special bulkiness provided by Calm Mind. Dragon Dance is going to be easier to make a set for no matter what we choose (imo), so our defensive booster is really in the rub here. Neither option is awful, but I feel we have more to gain from the concept's questions of unpredictability by going mixed.

 

[skies]

As Birkal has stated, Dragon Dance + Bulk Up has one major flaw: both are of the same stat. Calm Mind + Dragon Dance offers a unique combination that is only shared by Latios, while it is able to hit each side of the spectrum. CAP20 would be able to utilize this combination by doing the intended purpose, "options that result in completely different checks and counters," something that could be creatively done with this combination. I just don't feel like we would get this out of Dragon Dance + Bulk Up, whereas with Calm Mind + Dragon Dance we're getting an interesting point of discussion and a new view on checks and counters. Think about the mind games this Pokemon would create with the opponent. Should they bring in their special wall in fear of Calm Mind? Should they bring in their physical wall in fear of Dragon Dance? Then they would have to have a certain check or counter for both. I also feel like Dragon Dance is the main focus point, because of the Speed boost. Will the counter have to run Choice Scarf to stop it? Only to find themselves not being able to use their Special Attack to smack it before it sets up too much? I think the mind games and interest level of Calm Mind + Dragon Dance are very exciting. The opponent would have to think for a long while whether or not to go right into a revenge killer to prevent their team from being swept by the Dragon Dance, or if they're being played and it's actually a Calm Mind variant. Very interesting!

 

[NumberCruncher]

As far as inspiration for what to use as a basis for a Calm Mind/Dragon Dance sweeper, I wouldn't actually mind seeing us use UU Pokemon as the basis for our Calm Mind and Dragon Dance sets. What you need to remember is that if the Dragon Dance set and Calm Mind set are both insane by OU standards, our end result is going to be centralizing. If only one of those sets are insane by OU standards, then the other set won't be used. But if both of those sets are only slightly underwhelming by OU standards, then CAP can still steal wins based on surprise factor, which is ultimately what we're aiming for. As an example, maybe if his Calm Mind set was similar to that of something like Suicune and his Dragon Dance set was modeled off of Scrafty's set, we would still be in a position where CAP can secure wins after getting set up without having to make CAP hideously oppressive.

 

[BigWigs]

Let's see where we can go here.

With Dragon Dance + Calm Mind, we have ourselves a situation similar to Dragon Dance + Bulk Up, but we trade the priority resistance to hit from the other side of the spectrum. Because of this, we need to figure a way to not die to as many priority types as reasonably possible, because we're not going too far if we get axed by Talonflame's Brave Bird while either Calm Minding or Dragon Dancing.

Now, the usage, which is rather simple. Dragon Dance's the speed booster, to get past certain scarfers and fast threats with ease, best suited for a late game sweep where the walls are weakened/fainted and you can just plow through the enemy team. Meanwhile, Calm Mind lets you sweep, well, calmly, with less worries of some pesky Ferrothron or Chansey (well, Chansey you'd need Psyshock or about 3 boosts to beat but not getting off topic) standing in your way, but the problem's getting there. It can still get taunted by a Magic Bouncing Sableye, get hit by a status aliment, phazed, etc. while DD doesn't care quite as much. So overall, DD's for faster but easier to stop sweeping while CM's for slower but stronger sweeping.

 

[Billy the Uncle]

As an example, maybe if his Calm Mind set was similar to that of something like Suicune and his Dragon Dance set was modeled off of Scrafty's set, we would still be in a position where CAP can secure wins after getting set up without having to make CAP hideously oppressive.

I really like how you put the concept. Scrafty is an especially good example, since unarguably is not the best user of Dragon Dance, but it's still decent enough to pull it off. If we make CAP20 the best at both CM and DD, we're going to get a very powerful and maybe broken mon.

Also, Suicune and Scrafty are kinda similar as in they share decent defensive stats, while their offenses and speed are not the best. I think this is the road to follow in making CAP20: not only it will have to different ways to boost, but it will need to boost in order to work. I think we all agree that neither Scrafty nor Suicune work well without boosts. All in all, the example NumberCruncher provided is (imho) a good starting point to make a great, balanced CAP.

 

[Elite Lord Sigma]

I think another pertinent example for Dragon Dance is Feraligatr. Like Scrafty, Feraligatr has solid physical bulk, middling speed, and only above average attack power. Their raw power and physical bulk is comparable as well, as the two pairs of calculations below should demonstrate.

252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 104+ Def Mew: 156-185 (38.6 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Scrafty High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 104+ Def Mew: 175-208 (43.3 - 51.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Scrafty: 190-225 (70.1 - 83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Feraligatr: 214-253 (68.8 - 81.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Even at +1, Feraligatr's base 79 speed with full investment will still have it be outrun by faster scarfers, and its base 105 Attack isn't enough to wallbreak without a boost even with Sheer Force.

As for Calm Mind, Cresselia is a more extreme example. Relative to Suicune, it trades some offensive presence and a less desirable defensive typing for reliable recovery and greater bulk. While having access to reliable recovery might be a step too far for this CAP, I think everything else about Cresselia is a good example to follow.

 

[KhosroTheGreat]

As far as inspiration for what to use as a basis for a Calm Mind/Dragon Dance sweeper, I wouldn't actually mind seeing us use UU Pokemon as the basis for our Calm Mind and Dragon Dance sets. What you need to remember is that if the Dragon Dance set and Calm Mind set are both insane by OU standards, our end result is going to be centralizing. If only one of those sets are insane by OU standards, then the other set won't be used. But if both of those sets are only slightly underwhelming by OU standards, then CAP can still steal wins based on surprise factor, which is ultimately what we're aiming for. As an example, maybe if his Calm Mind set was similar to that of something like Suicune and his Dragon Dance set was modeled off of Scrafty's set, we would still be in a position where CAP can secure wins after getting set up without having to make CAP hideously oppressive.

I strongly support NC's comment - the main problems that people who liked DD + BU had with CM + DD were a rather large movepool and high stats across the board, so it is vital that we make sure that the stats are not OP, and I feel like using UU Pokemon might be a good way of doing this. Obviously, we have to be careful not to go over the other side and make this CAP too overwhelming, but I doubt that'll be a problem.

In terms of stats, Defence gives the DD sets the protection they need from priority, while giving CM sets bulk in both sides of the defensive spectrum - it is important that we don't over-inflate this stat as it seems to be the hole that keeps our mon grounded. Having said that, as ELS and NC showed, good physical defence have been vital for DD users in the past, although how successful these are is questionable. Overall, I think we either we either go for an all around decent spread (good stats in all areas but not too good), or we go for a more specialised spread but with one or two holes (something like Conkeldurr, with strong stats in certain areas but holes elsewhere).

 

[Alfalfa]

I strongly support NC's comment - the main problems that people who liked DD + BU had with CM + DD were a rather large movepool and high stats across the board, so it is vital that we make sure that the stats are not OP, and I feel like using UU Pokemon might be a good way of doing this. Obviously, we have to be careful not to go over the other side and make this CAP too overwhelming, but I doubt that'll be a problem.

In terms of stats, Defence gives the DD sets the protection they need from priority, while giving CM sets bulk in both sides of the defensive spectrum - it is important that we don't over-inflate this stat as it seems to be the hole that keeps our mon grounded. Having said that, as ELS and NC showed, good physical defence have been vital for DD users in the past, although how successful these are is questionable. Overall, I think we either we either go for an all around decent spread (good stats in all areas but not too good), or we go for a more specialised spread but with one or two holes (something like Conkeldurr, with strong stats in certain areas but holes elsewhere).

How do you define OP? I am trying to poll jump and I understand that we do not pull out stats yet, but you never specified how much it was going to be OP. I do not think we should be afraid to use OU Pokemon as a model. Having similar attack to Garchomp / Terrakion and similar Special Attack to Celebi / Starmie / Landorus-T is necessarily going to be that overpowered. Sure, you have to give it good speed and physical bulk to last a chance against offensive teams, but does that necessarily mean it is overpowered? The only stat this CAP does not need to be high is Special Defense because most revenge killers are physically based, which we can use to balance it and leave it vulnerable to Scarf users like Keldeo and Latios. Keep in mind that the CAP mon has to be good enough at forcing the mind games too, so it should definitely have a BST that would allow it to play the mind games.

 

[jas61292]

I would like to post in agreement to the general idea of what Number Cruncher said. The concept, as it is written, will not be successful if our Pokemon is simply great at one or the other boosting sets. What we need is a Pokemon that is good in OU because of the option it has to go with either of the boosting sets. Having either one be a standard top OU capable set on its own is thus not ideal. The versatility is what we need to be supporting us, and with a chosen pair of CM+DD, we will certainly need versatility to work at all. By looking at some lesser used or lower tier CM and DD users, and identifying the traits that make them good, but not amazing at what they do, we can then push two of these molds together to create a Pokemon that is good in OU because it is good at two things, but not amazing at either. I think the stated examples of Scrafty and Suicune may not be ideal, but, I think the general theme they represent of bulkier boosters would definitely be the way to go. While both can work on a more offensive oriented Pokemon, I feel that doing so would make it much harder to strike a balance between the two sets.

 

[mphallor]

Agreeing with jas that Suicune and Scrafty aren't exactly what we're looking for. While I do agree that a bulky Pokemon is what we may want to go with, we need to consider one of the significant differences between DD and CM: DD sweepers are usually one boost and go to town, whereas dedicated CM sweepers usually try to acquire multiple boosts. What I mean by "dedicated" is Pokemon like Clefable and Sableye that actually want Calm Mind, as opposed to those like Keldeo that only use it as an inferior Nasty Plot. Anyway, I think that unlike the Pokemon mentioned, we will probably want to build with enough power on the physical set to sweep after one boost, and enough bulk on the CM set to become extremely durable after the ball starts rolling. Unlike Suicune and Scrafty, we probably don't want equal defenses or (as in Suicune's case) similar offences since this will fail to accentuate the differences between the sets. Instead we will probably want the physical set to have more immediate power in exchange for less special bulk, which the Calm Mind set will look to remedy by grabbing multiple boosts, at which point it's immediate special firepower starts to become irrelevant since almost everything can hit hard with several CM boosts under its belt.

While the most direct way to achieve this imbalance is obviously to give CAP a higher Atk than SPa and higher Def than SpDef, there are other ways we can do this through ability, movepool, and simply by accounting for the fact that the DD set can run Life Orb and other offensive items whereas the CM set (probably) can't. But whatever stage we decide to do it at, I think we should build our CAP to fit the mold of going for one boost with DD and multiple boosts with CM.

 

[azureleaf17]

Agreeing with jas that Suicune and Scrafty aren't exactly what we're looking for. While I do agree that a bulky Pokemon is what we may want to go with, we need to consider one of the significant differences between DD and CM: DD sweepers are usually one boost and go to town, whereas dedicated CM sweepers usually try to acquire multiple boosts. What I mean by "dedicated" is Pokemon like Clefable and Sableye that actually want Calm Mind, as opposed to those like Keldeo that only use it as an inferior Nasty Plot. Anyway, I think that unlike the Pokemon mentioned, we will probably want to build with enough power on the physical set to sweep after one boost, and enough bulk on the CM set to become extremely durable after the ball starts rolling. Unlike Suicune and Scrafty, we probably don't want equal defenses or (as in Suicune's case) similar offences since this will fail to accentuate the differences between the sets. Instead we will probably want the physical set to have more immediate power in exchange for less special bulk, which the Calm Mind set will look to remedy by grabbing multiple boosts, at which point it's immediate special firepower starts to become irrelevant since almost everything can hit hard with several CM boosts under its belt.

While the most direct way to achieve this imbalance is obviously to give CAP a higher Atk than SPa and higher Def than SpDef, there are other ways we can do this through ability, movepool, and simply by accounting for the fact that the DD set can run Life Orb and other offensive items whereas the CM set (probably) can't. But whatever stage we decide to do it at, I think we should build our CAP to fit the mold of going for one boost with DD and multiple boosts with CM.

The issue I have with this is that there are a couple of outliers to your assessment of Dragon Dancers using one boost and Calm Mind using multiple ones. DD sweepers like Gyarados and Dragonite often tried to use their good bulk to obtain multiple boosts, and SubCM 'mons such as Keldeo and Meloetta down in RU rarely get the chance to set up more than one Calm Mind, instead relying on the Sub to get one turn of free setup and then using their passable bulk and great speed to mess up the opponent. I do not refute your ideas of how we could use the concept to build the Pokemon's stats, but realize that the fact that such outliers exist afford us far more flexibility than you may think :)

 

[BrianFantana]

In terms of models for successful usage, Calm Mind and Dragon Dance both have effective users that take advantage of defensive stats and abilities to setup. Clefable, Mega Sableye and Reuniclus snatch multiple turns of CM setup through a combination of good bulk and stellar defensive abilities (Unaware, Magic Guard, Magic Bounce). In lower tiers BW Scrafty and pre-XY Altaria operate similarly as Dragon Dancers and notably have stat spreads more geared towards bulk than offense. Generally the CM users discourage stall-based responses - status in particular - while the DD users take advantage of offensive threats that are unable to touch them, clinching that crucial first setup turn. I think a synthesis of a stallbreaking CM set such as Clefable's and a bulky DD set such as that of pre-XY Altaria (or current gen Gyara/Dragonite, but they aren't great models here as both have big immediate offensive presence) would be an effective combination for this cap, as they ask for similar things - passable offenses, solid bulk, reliable recovery and a decent defensive ability - while necessitating totally different countermeasures.

Edit: in response to Alfalfa below - you're right, this was a clumsy post. Must try harder next time. Dnite (and Gyarados) are obviously better examples in OU, and Scrafty and Altaria's DD sets have never been optimal even within their tiers and gens. But it would take what, +20 in Scrafty's base speed and Altaria's base attack to make them effective? Maybe less maybe more. My point is that they show us the unrealized potential of a bulky approach to DD. We could effectively translate and idealize their defensive boosting approaches up from their own tiers/generations into ORAS OU in a way that would also accommodate a Calm Mind set, and we don't need to give it Dragonite's attack stat (as an example) either.

 

[Alfalfa]

In terms of models for successful usage, Calm Mind and Dragon Dance both have effective users that take advantage of defensive stats and abilities to setup. Clefable, Mega Sableye and Reuniclus snatch multiple turns of CM setup through a combination of good bulk and stellar defensive abilities (Unaware, Magic Guard, Magic Bounce). In lower tiers Scrafty and pre-XY Altaria operate similarly as Dragon Dancers and notably have stat spreads more geared towards bulk than offense. Generally the CM users discourage stall-based responses - status in particular - while the DD users take advantage of offensive threats that are unable to touch them, clinching that crucial first setup turn. I think a synthesis of a stallbreaking CM set such as Clefable's and a bulky DD set such as that of pre-XY Altaria (or current gen Gyara/Dragonite, but they aren't great models here as both have big immediate offensive presence) would be an effective combination for this cap, as they ask for similar things - passable offenses, solid bulk, reliable recovery and a decent defensive ability - while necessitating totally different countermeasures.

That statement on Scrafty is completely false. Scrafty has average bulk that is muddled by a horrible defensive typing that gives it a very difficult time setting up. It usually is not worth running Dragon Dance Scrafty either, as its mediocre speed, attack, and its inability to muscle past bulkier Pokemon (especially Fairy-Types) will more often than not, make it a liability. Dark / Fighting was okay to have in Gen 5, but even then, Scrafty suffered from a number of flaws that made setting up Dragon Dances a pain, along with making sweeping with Dragon Dance a pain. Pre-XY Altaria had the issue of still being really weak even at +6, and bulkier sets could easily be taken out with strong or super effective attacks, so I do not understand where you are going there. A better model would be BW Dragonite, which is a lot stronger, bulkier, and more consistent than Altaria and Scrafty, and while still suffered from critical weaknesses, was able to pull its weight more often in running bulky Dragon Dance sets due to Multiscale + Roost. Obviously, our CAP is not running Multiscale, but we can still think about how to give it the appropriate qualities that will allow it to pull its weight.

 

[Burt Racecar]

Generally speaking any player would want to stack both these boosts high if they can help it.

It's just that DD has diminishing returns in comparison with CM. Some pokemon only need one DD to outpace the entire meta and others might need two. So by this point, after one or two boosts, they are fast enough and adequately strong enough to carry out their function of sweeping.
Whereas CM doesn't modify a pokemon's speed so this set is naturally going to be taking more hits, meaning players push the CM stack as far as they can in the name of longevity. I know there are fast CM users who only opt for one or two boost, so this isn't always the case

However, as we've chosen DD as the other boosting move it seems logical to take a slow(ish) and bulky approach. This way the benefits of each boosting move will pay off on a more or less equal level.

 

[Cretacerus]

A bulky approach to boosting seems to be the best fit for our CAP, seeing that it allows both of our chosen boosting moves to function well in their supposed roles.
Especially Calm Mind appreciates bulk a lot more than speed or power, as the focus on defensive tactics means that it is actually not used as an inferior version of Nasty Plot, but instead valued for both of the boosts it provides. We chose Calm Mind primarily for the defensive attributes it offers over Dragon Dance, so we don’t really want it to become a specially attacking counterpart to the sweeping set.

Similarly, an initially unimpressive speed stat would help the Dragon Dance avoid competition from another role as well, in this case that of an all-out attacker. I think the Feraligatr comparison made by Elite Lord Sigma is a very good example for this, since its lack of speed and arguably powerful moves basically requires it to run a boosting move in order to fulfil its job, which makes it one of the most consistent users of boosting moves seen in the entire game. Not to mention that bulk especially on the physical side is very useful for Dragon Dancers to escape revenge killing through priority.

However, we still have to remember that Dragon Dance was supposed to be our option for an instant set-up as opposed to Calm Mind’s gradual boosting. This means that speed and attack of our CAP would have to be high enough for a decent sweeping chance after a single boost. Requiring multiple set-up turns for a sweep would greatly take away from the unpredictability we wanted to achieve with this boosting combination, which includes the opponent's risk of having his responses to the Calm Mind set being taken care of by the Dragon Dance set after a single turn of set up. The usually offensive checks to the Calm Mind set would probably not give CAP a second turn of set up, so outspeeding and koing them is the most viable way to achieve this.

 

[KhosroTheGreat]

Cretacerus' post raises a question for me: If it can sweep after a single Dragon Dance boost, then why not just give it a Scarf?
We need to be careful how much Attack we give this CAP, considering that Scarf gives the same speed boost - its Attack should be be good enough to sweep after a single boost, but still be bad enough to discourage a Scarf set.

Having said that, a bulky approach to a mon which can sweep after a single D-Dance boost is sounding a bit questionable. How are we going to balance our CAP, which seems to have good bulk, good speed and good offense, although not good enough to sweep without a single D-Dance boosts or multiple CM boosts. The question is, how are going to make the CM set be able to have chances to set up, without making the offensive D-Dance set too bulky?

 

[Alfalfa]

Cretacerus' post raises a question for me: If it can sweep after a single Dragon Dance boost, then why not just give it a Scarf?
We need to be careful how much Attack we give this CAP, considering that Scarf gives the same speed boost - its Attack should be be good enough to sweep after a single boost, but still be bad enough to discourage a Scarf set.

Having said that, a bulky approach to a mon which can sweep after a single D-Dance boost is sounding a bit questionable. How are we going to balance our CAP, which seems to have good bulk, good speed and good offense, although not good enough to sweep without a single D-Dance boosts or multiple CM boosts. The question is, how are going to make the CM set be able to have chances to set up, without making the offensive D-Dance set too bulky?

Give it good physical bulk, but bad special bulk, since its lack of Special Defense can be compensated for by Calm Mind. You could also make the CAP so its main weaknesses come from physically-based typings to balance this inequality out.

It depends what you mean by bad attack. We definitely do not want the CAP to have an attack stat like Scrafty, who has difficulties sweeping teams without multiple boosts, but we do not want it to have the attack power of something like Rayquaza. I am not trying to jump the gun too early, but as a reference to what I am referring to, I think having an attack stat similar to that of Toxicroak or Infernape should be fine in terms of physical offensive firepower.

 

[DougJustDoug]

Dragon Dance is an awfully nice move, that will likely be VERY appealing on CAP 20, potentially to the exclusion of CM at all, unless we are careful. I'm just speculating, so more knowledgeable OU battlers may disagree with me. But, I'm thinking we should be biasing our new CAP towards Calm Mind, and intentionally suppressing Dragon Dance a bit, since DD has some inherent advantages to begin with. Speed is so critical in Pokemon battles, that anything that boosts speed is a huge benefit. Adding in an Attack boost too, makes it amazing. Calm Mind likely won't be preferred unless we work hard to make it so.

As I noted in the stats I posted earlier, Latios is the only current pokemon in the game with access to both Calm Mind and Dragon Dance, and Latios does not appear to use DD in the Gen 6 competitive metagame. HOWEVER, Latios did run Dragon Dance occasionally in previous gens as an alternative set. As we consider our options for CM and DD on CAP 20, I think it is worthwhile to look back and remember the key factors that made both CM and DD viable on DP/BW Latios, but with DD as the clearly secondary set.

Looking at Latios' stats, it's obvious why DD was inferior to CM. That's not the point, the key question is "Why was DD viable at all?" -- The answer was "Movepool". More accurately, "Physical movepool for specific counters".

I remember facing Latios in DP and in BW too. I'll never forget the sinking feeling I would get, switching into Latios and seeing the dreaded message, "Latios used Dragon Dance!" It really would throw a monkey wrench into my plans, almost every time.

DD Latios was by no means overpowered. It only has a base 90 attack, which even by DP/BW standards was nothing to fear really. Far less terrifying than most Dragon Dancers like Mence, Nite, or TTar with their majestic 134+ base attack stats. CM Latios was clearly a more standard set than DD, with good reason -- CM was more reliable and took better advantage of Latios' stats and movepool. But DD served a very specific purpose, for very specific counters, and for that reason, was a viable alternative to CM.

DD Latios has a terrible physical movepool, but has access to two key moves that made all the difference when it came to the DD set -- Earthquake and Outrage (in that order of importance). Latios' attack stat, at +1 after a DD, combined with 100 bp EQ, did huge chunks of damage or outright KO'ed bog standard Latios counters like Jirachi and Heatran. And the +1 speed boost gave Latios the jump on Heatran, who almost always was scarfed. Outrage was the perfect compliment with a massive 180 STAB BP, allowing Latios to take out Blissey, the other all-too-common switchin to Latios. Latios has almost no other useful physical moves to speak of -- Outrage and EQ are pretty much the ONLY reason it ran DD at all!

The point I'm making is this -- Latios was dreadful from a physical perspective, but the awesomeness of Dragon Dance, combined with a couple of crucial moves that applied to specific counters, made DD Latios a viable play in previous gens.

Let's keep that in mind as we buld CAP 20, since our concept is similarly aligned with that kind of thinking. We want CM and DD to both be viable, and have different counters. DD Latios was perhaps a bit more of a niche play than we want DD CAP 20 to be -- but the lessons of DD Latios are still informative. If Latios was not as overloaded on the special side, DD Latios might have been more viable. If Latios had a better physical attack stat or a better physical movepool, DD Latios might compare more favorably with the CM set. So we can tweak CAP 20 up or down in various areas to make CM better or worse compared to DD. A carefully crafted movepool can make all the difference.

 

[vyomov]

I think that while designing this CAP it is imperative that, in the attempt to ensure it is not broken, we don't power it down too much - while it is true that versatility will give the CAP some advantage, any team can only run one of the two boosting sets, and it is crucial we ensure that each boosting set, in its own right, is not completely outclassed by an existing sweeper. For instance, creating a water-type CM/DD (not trying to poll jump here) sweeper would mean that the CM set will face competition from top-tier equivalents such as Manaphy when running a CM set on a team, so we should try to give the CAP some traits apart from the versatility that ensure it is not outclassed(for example, giving it forms of coverage that other sweepers of its kind do not get). Versatility will aid this CAP in succeeding, but it alone cannot carry the CAP to being an OU-viable mon.

 

[tehy]

My personal view real quick

i'd like both the sweeping sets to be equally as good obvsly, but more importantly, i'd like their individual level of goodness to be, let's say more niche, but then have the unpredictability take it over the top. Basically, this mon isn't a waste if the opponent guesses right, but is great if they guess wrong.

to get back to the sweeping sets equally as good, a few examples up top there are really more about lures, for example DD latios relies on the surprise to get 2 DDs, but that's all-it's pretty bleh if you know about it straight-up and it relies on the surprise. And i get we're shooting to be better than that, but at no point do I want one set to be used just as a surprise to the counters of the other set.

Overall, i feel like this discussion doesn't have too much more to be said, but it would be quite nice if we go for the bulk; a nice way to do it is to make it fast enough to outspeed most stuff at +1, and bulky enough to make it fairly tough to revenge with a scarfer, fairly strong in both attacking stats but not that strong. it doesn't really need insane attacking stats to do this; with any luck good STABs + coverage make up for that to an extent (not just high powered moves to make up for stats, although that too, more like good coverage / SE coverage).

Also, a really nice thing i'd like to see is if the CAP gets a different fourth-slot coverage move based on its offense, say if it learns Ice Beam and Wild Charge, but not Ice Punch or Thunderbolt (not sure if i gotta disclaim; just an example and not poll-jumping). Also, do we want said CAP to have different counters based on its fourth moveslot, for example Dragon Pulse CAP loses to Scizor and Flamethrower CAP loses to Charizard X? (if a cap mod's reading this, would you prefer i disclaim this shit always? it seems pretty obvious i'm not poll-jumping to me espc. since i don't even know typing, but i don't want to be misunderstood, VM me if you want)

Personally, don't know if this is something I've got the authority or w/e to say, I just don't see much discussion left here. Any chance of moving it along, or am i just horribly wrong?

 

[nyttyn]

Apologies for the delay, real life and sickness caught up to me in a big way the past two days and I was completely out of commission. That aside, it seems we have come to a consensus. Neither set should be cutting edge, dominant S-tier levels of good in the OU meta - instead, we should be looking towards making two sets that, while still perfectly good, fall short of true greatness, and instead utilize the versatility and surprise factor of having two radically different sets to our advantage. The Dragon Dance set will attempt to gain one boost and then go to town, while the Calm Mind set will be attempting to fish for multiple boosts to become an extremely powerful, bulky sweeper. I would like to emphasize the pros and cons of each move, just so everyone's on the same page - Dragon Dance is a more varied beast, capable of having the luxury of using coverage and being an threat after a single boost, though lacking in overwhelming raw power and thus being better at cleaning up an already weakened team, while Calm Mind is more reliant upon a singular attack, instead utilizing recovery and overwhelming power and bulk to be able to KO even healthy pokemon.

Onto typing.

Oh yes, and as a bonus to make up for this little delay, have an upbeat remix by T Stebbins, aka a singer with a voice so amazing it makes straight men unto spaghetti in a boiling pot.