ORAS UU Viability Ranking Thread

[Nightingales]

I think we can drop Flygon to D now. It's just outclassed by literally everything it could do.

 

[Tymano]

I think we can drop Flygon to D now. It's just outclassed by literally everything it could do.

Agree, flygon is outclassed in every role it could do, whether that being choice band (mence or hydra do it better) defog (mence does it better) amd just anout anything else except U-Turn, which is the only thing about it thats good.

 

[Pokemoon]

I think we can drop Flygon to D now. It's just outclassed by literally everything it could do.

tbh it really is. seconded
edit: if there was a c- rank, maybe it would drop to that

 

[Nightingales]

Things Flygon can do -
Scarf - Outclassed by Mence, Hydreigon, and even Haxorus can do it better.
Band - Again, Mence and Haxorus can beat it out.
U-Turn - Beaten out by things like Meinshao, Mega Pidgeot, and even flippin' Crobat.
Tailwind - Suicune does a far better job and can actually survive a hit too.
Defog - There's better defoggers. Being immune to Spikes/Web helps, but it won't matter because Crobat still does that better.

It deserves D .

 

[Skankovich]

I don't think splitting stuff up like that is really useful at all (and tbf it's a way better defogger than crobat at least), but I agree that it needs to drop to D. Its niches are just way too small to be worth using almost ever.

 

[Wish9]

Flygon is literally outclassed in almost every way. The other Dragons are much better choices due to better stats and movepools. Pivots such as Crobat are also much better. You'd expect this thing to drop but apparently SOME people still use it for whatever stupid reason. (Ugh friggin low ladder)

 

[r0ady]

I don't think splitting stuff up like that is really useful at all (and tbf it's a way better defogger than crobat at least), but I agree that it needs to drop to D. Its niches are just way too small to be worth using almost ever.

Alright I'm too tired to write out why but I should smack you for saying its a better defogger than bat

 

[DaSpoofy]

Porygon 2 should be put up to B rank. Ice beam okoes sally and does a lot to mega aero. Discharge it really good with para spread. Has enough speed to come in and recover on another wall if damaged. Conversion set it actually very viable and dont worry Ill get the replays. There are some notable bad things like hera switch in and completley walled by florges but a para on florges means a turn of aromatheropy or it gets fully paralyzed. Conversion set can take ccs from banded hera (Ill get clacs... on my phone will edit later) and recover up. Trace is amazing get intimidate on salamence, stealing speed boost from sharpedo, and getting natural cure on the sleep powder roserade switch. Analyctic it ok but trace I feel is better for something as bulky as pory. With conversion, fighting type switch ins are not threats anymore. Pory can now wall infernape, lucario, machamp, and mega pidgeotto. Once I get the conversion replays up, it will be more clear.

<----------- If you want explanations with commentary

Replays: With Alts, KingUU's Mom and Sam's Creepy Uncle
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/uunoscald-218364689
Porygon 2 takes a hit from a banded salamence with the help of trace. It then eleiminates Salamence with ice beam as it is locked into outrage. Later it plays around with aggron and para spreads for the win!
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/uu-219138555
Porygon 2 kills a suicune after taking hits from MegaBee and stealing its adaptability. Suicune was my opponents only chance to win!
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/uu-219140854
My opponent has a mono bug team -__- but it shows the sheer bulk of Porygon 2 without an eviolite!
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/uu-219148974
High ranking player Aggron gets bent over by para spread and confusion hacks. Porygon 2 becomes a win condition after i miss a high jump kick!
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/uu-219152653
Suicune is destroyed early game making my opponent near impossible to beat porygon!

 

[Lucipurrr]

Things Flygon can do -
Scarf - Outclassed by Mence, Hydreigon, and even Haxorus can do it better.
Band - Again, Mence and Haxorus can beat it out.
U-Turn - Beaten out by things like Meinshao, Mega Pidgeot, and even flippin' Crobat.
Tailwind - Suicune does a far better job and can actually survive a hit too.
Defog - There's better defoggers. Being immune to Spikes/Web helps, but it won't matter because Crobat still does that better.

It deserves D .

This pretty much sums up my thoughts on Flygon. Flygon was a decent scout, but I barely see it on the UU ladder or No Scald ladder. I love Flygon as a pokemon, but she's just outclassed by any other poke in the Tier that can fit into her team role.

 

[aim]

I'm not really feeling Gligar as an A- rank. Sure, it can defog away hazards but is is extremely useless and set up fodder for many mons in the tier like Suicune and M-Aero. Of course, them being S rank doesn't say much but Gligar basically loses to every CM User in the tier while not being able to do a great job as a physical wall as the physical hits it needs to switch-into, such as Entei's Sacred Fire, punish it. With Rain, Encore Whimsicott, CM Reuiniclus, Mix/Band Mence which is can just what, u-turn vs, all gaining popularity, Gligar is just not what is was back in XY UU. I'm saying we push it from A- to B+. It's just so exploitable and weak that I don't see it being classes as an A- threat. also agreeing with flygon.

 

[YABO]

I'm not really feeling Gligar as an A- rank. Sure, it can defog away hazards but is is extremely useless and set up fodder for many mons in the tier like Suicune and M-Aero. Of course, them being S rank doesn't say much but Gligar basically loses to every CM User in the tier while not being able to do a great job as a physical wall as the physical hits it needs to switch-into, such as Entei's Sacred Fire, punish it. With Rain, Encore Whimsicott, CM Reuiniclus, Mix/Band Mence which is can just what, u-turn vs, all gaining popularity, Gligar is just not what is was back in XY UU. I'm saying we push it from A- to B+. It's just so exploitable and weak that I don't see it being classes as an A- threat. also agreeing with flygon.

Gligar is pretty bad right now tbh. It's definitely not awful but like you said, it gets walked all over by the more powerful stuff in the tier and has trouble checking the stuff it should be checking. B+ or even B would be good for me.

 

[Wish9]

This is probably gonna sound weird to everyone, but honestly I think Mega Aero is the weakest of the S Ranks and should drop to A+

Now I will agree that Mega Aero is a good poke but the meta has become more adept at handling it, ever since Raikou and Celebi left, waters have dominated the meta. There's also the fact that Aero struggles to beat any of the top physical walls such as Mega Aggron or Suicune even with hone claws. It has problems against offensive teams as well, Lucario commonly runs Bullet Punch which 2hkoes Aero (meaning that switching in is risky). It's not a reliable check to Entei either since it fears Sacred Fire Burns and Stone Edge. And like I said before, it struggles to deal significant damage to certain pokes of the tier. This creates problems as you could end up becoming set up fodder and finding yourself and a bad situation to pokes such as Swampert or Cobalion. Mega Aero may still be a good poke as it checks some key threats such as Shaymin and Mienshao but it's not S Rank material imo due to the aforementioned flaws and the current meta that it lives in.

 

[Zartres10]

Agreed with the flygon comments. I tried to use it as a bulky defogger, but the problem was it wasn't really bulky... It's stats are just too mediocre compared to alternatives.

 

[DaSpoofy]

This is probably gonna sound weird to everyone, but honestly I think Mega Aero is the weakest of the S Ranks and should drop to A+

Now I will agree that Mega Aero is a good poke but the meta has become more adept at handling it, ever since Raikou and Celebi left, waters have dominated the meta. There's also the fact that Aero struggles to beat any of the top physical walls such as Mega Aggron or Suicune even with hone claws. It has problems against offensive teams as well, Lucario commonly runs Bullet Punch which 2hkoes Aero (meaning that switching in is risky). It's not a reliable check to Entei either since it fears Sacred Fire Burns and Stone Edge. And like I said before, it struggles to deal significant damage to certain pokes of the tier. This creates problems as you could end up becoming set up fodder and finding yourself and a bad situation to pokes such as Swampert or Cobalion. Mega Aero may still be a good poke as it checks some key threats such as Shaymin and Mienshao but it's not S Rank material imo due to the aforementioned flaws and the current meta that it lives in.

Just stop it! Its fast and powerful and the meta still favors it even with bulky water pressence. Offensive flying is really good right now, plus Aero can come in on other common threats like crobat and mega pidgeot. If you are running aqua tail, ypu can wall a lot of common ground types such as hippo, gligar, and donny. Ive had more sweeps with this thing in the suspect test than I did serperior. Its easy for a team to be unprepared for something like mega aero. Just stop

 

[Skankovich]

Alright I'm too tired to write out why but I should smack you for saying its a better defogger than bat

Bat just loses to like every user of rocks out there, so although it does get switchin opportunities to come in and remove hazards the majority of rockers can just come back in, force it out and get them up again. It loses to the most common one, nidoqueen, gets burned by emp, loses/gets burned by swamp, loses to aggron, tends to lose to forretress, it even loses to donphan... its main advantage is that it's speedy af so can defog in a pinch, but that's really it. At least flygon outspeeds and 1hkos the likes of emp and queen.

Idk, I've honestly just never been able to get results out of defog bat. Maybe it's because I tend to run teams on the bulkier side of the spectrum, but defog consistently under-performs for me. I might just be using it wrong lel.

 

[DaSpoofy]

Porygon 2 should be put up to B rank. Ice beam okoes sally and does a lot to mega aero. Discharge it really good with para spread. Has enough speed to come in and recover on another wall if damaged. Conversion set it actually very viable and dont worry Ill get the replays. There are some notable bad things like hera switch in and completley walled by florges but a para on florges means a turn of aromatheropy or it gets fully paralyzed. Conversion set can take ccs from banded hera (Ill get clacs... on my phone will edit later) and recover up. Trace is amazing get intimidate on salamence, stealing speed boost from sharpedo, and getting natural cure on the sleep powder roserade switch. Analyctic it ok but trace I feel is better for something as bulky as pory. With conversion, fighting type switch ins are not threats anymore. Pory can now wall infernape, lucario, machamp, and mega pidgeotto. Once I get the conversion replays up, it will be more clear.

<----------- If you want explanations with commentary

Replays: With Alts, KingUU's Mom and Sam's Creepy Uncle
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/uunoscald-218364689
Porygon 2 takes a hit from a banded salamence with the help of trace. It then eleiminates Salamence with ice beam as it is locked into outrage. Later it plays around with aggron and para spreads for the win!
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/uu-219138555
Porygon 2 kills a suicune after taking hits from MegaBee and stealing its adaptability. Suicune was my opponents only chance to win!
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/uu-219140854
My opponent has a mono bug team -__- but it shows the sheer bulk of Porygon 2 without an eviolite!
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/uu-219148974
High ranking player Aggron gets bent over by para spread and confusion hacks. Porygon 2 becomes a win condition after i miss a high jump kick!
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/uu-219152653
Suicune is destroyed early game making my opponent near impossible to beat porygon!

Finished the edit so please bash me with your criticisms!

 

[Wanka]

This is probably gonna sound weird to everyone, but honestly I think Mega Aero is the weakest of the S Ranks and should drop to A+

Now I will agree that Mega Aero is a good poke but the meta has become more adept at handling it, ever since Raikou and Celebi left, waters have dominated the meta. There's also the fact that Aero struggles to beat any of the top physical walls such as Mega Aggron or Suicune even with hone claws. It has problems against offensive teams as well, Lucario commonly runs Bullet Punch which 2hkoes Aero (meaning that switching in is risky). It's not a reliable check to Entei either since it fears Sacred Fire Burns and Stone Edge. And like I said before, it struggles to deal significant damage to certain pokes of the tier. This creates problems as you could end up becoming set up fodder and finding yourself and a bad situation to pokes such as Swampert or Cobalion. Mega Aero may still be a good poke as it checks some key threats such as Shaymin and Mienshao but it's not S Rank material imo due to the aforementioned flaws and the current meta that it lives in.

Not too sure why you think it struggles against offense. It revenges some of the best offensive mons in the tier like hera and Entei. And if ur facing HO and you get aero in vs an entei or a hera they are forced to sack something because offense scarcely has aero switch ins. And I think you are misunderstanding the difference between a check and a counter. Aero is indeed a reliable check to entei. A mon that checks another does not necessarily mean it switch ins into it safely...that is a counter. A check is something that beats it 1v1 and or forces it too switch out which aero does to entei. It most certainly deserves S rank as it does absolute large amounts of work to offense (a very common playstyle), its one of the best cleaners in the tier, can be very easily supported, it outspeeds the whole tier even scarfers like chandy, and it has a very good movepool to support its typing. I dont know what ur missing it most certaintly fits S rank.

 

[Schpoonman]

Bat just loses to like every user of rocks out there, so although it does get switchin opportunities to come in and remove hazards the majority of rockers can just come back in, force it out and get them up again. It loses to the most common one, nidoqueen, gets burned by emp, loses/gets burned by swamp, loses to aggron, tends to lose to forretress, it even loses to donphan... its main advantage is that it's speedy af so can defog in a pinch, but that's really it. At least flygon outspeeds and 1hkos the likes of emp and queen.

Idk, I've honestly just never been able to get results out of defog bat. Maybe it's because I tend to run teams on the bulkier side of the spectrum, but defog consistently under-performs for me. I might just be using it wrong lel.

Are you running Taunt?

 

[Wanka]

Bat just loses to like every user of rocks out there, so although it does get switchin opportunities to come in and remove hazards the majority of rockers can just come back in, force it out and get them up again. It loses to the most common one, nidoqueen, gets burned by emp, loses/gets burned by swamp, loses to aggron, tends to lose to forretress, it even loses to donphan... its main advantage is that it's speedy af so can defog in a pinch, but that's really it. At least flygon outspeeds and 1hkos the likes of emp and queen.

Idk, I've honestly just never been able to get results out of defog bat. Maybe it's because I tend to run teams on the bulkier side of the spectrum, but defog consistently under-performs for me. I might just be using it wrong lel.

Every mon you stated that beats crobat also beats flygon. Forry, donphan, emp, swamp, and aggron all beat flygon as well. And nidoqueen is not a sure fire check to crobat. If queen is weakened to like half even it can just finish it off with a brave bird. and if you say emp and aggron lose to flygon I should slap you because there is no way in hell flygons weak ass is ohkoing emp with an eq let alone even denting aggron. Emp can simply pop it with an ice beam which a lot have been running lately and aggron 1v1's it as well. Crobat is the better defogger as it has a BY FAR better typing than flygon and is one of the fastest mons in the tier as it can throw around u turns, gain momentum, and pop walls who try to rocks with taunt.

 

[Skankovich]

Every mon you stated that beats crobat also beats flygon. Forry, donphan, emp, swamp, and aggron all beat flygon as well. And nidoqueen is not a sure fire check to crobat. If queen is weakened to like half even it can just finish it off with a brave bird. and if you say emp and aggron lose to flygon I should slap you because there is no way in hell flygons weak ass is ohkoing emp with an eq let alone even denting aggron.

Since when is empoleon or nidoqueen beating flygon? It 1hkos and outspeeds both with any sort of boosting item (+ has a chance without and rocks). And if you actually bothered with reading comprehension you'd see I said flygon only beats those two over bat and I never suggested it beats the others- but that's two more than crobat beats at least. I mean Flygon could run fire blast I guess, but that seems shit lol.

Emp can simply pop it with an ice beam which a lot have been running lately and aggron 1v1's it as well. Crobat is the better defogger as it has a BY FAR better typing than flygon and is one of the fastest mons in the tier as it can throw around u turns, gain momentum, and pop walls who try to rocks with taunt.

Going back to my original post:

I don't think splitting stuff up like that is really useful at all

My point was that if you just consider the role of defog, flygon is better- but that's not useful as you need to consider the whole package a mon brings to the table, and flygon is significantly underwhelming. Those things you mentioned crobat doing are extraneous to its role as a defogger, besides taunt perhaps, but they significantly add to its overall viability. Yes its typing is brilliant, but every rocker takes advantage of it. Yes it can u-turn but if it's not threatening rockers then it's going to be taking a solid 25% every time it comes in.

Don't get me wrong, I agreed with Flygon to D and obviously crobat is like, 1000x better. I just think crobat is a poor defogger and it's better off taking up other roles.

Are you running Taunt?

Yeah, normally taunt or u-turn.

 

[Wanka]

Since when is empoleon or nidoqueen beating flygon? It 1hkos and outspeeds both with any sort of boosting item (+ has a chance without and rocks). And if you actually bothered with reading comprehension you'd see I said flygon only beats those two over bat and I never suggested it beats the others- but that's two more than crobat beats at least. I mean Flygon could run fire blast I guess, but that seems shit lol.



Going back to my original post:



My point was that if you just consider the role of defog, flygon is better- but that's not useful as you need to consider the whole package a mon brings to the table, and flygon is significantly underwhelming. Those things you mentioned crobat doing are extraneous to its role as a defogger, besides taunt perhaps, but they significantly add to its overall viability. Yes its typing is brilliant, but every rocker takes advantage of it. Yes it can u-turn but if it's not threatening rockers then it's going to be taking a solid 25% every time it comes in.

Don't get me wrong, I agreed with Flygon to D and obviously crobat is like, 1000x better. I just think crobat is a poor defogger and it's better off taking up other roles.



Yeah, normally taunt or u-turn.

252 Atk Flygon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Empoleon: 306-360 (82.2 - 96.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Flygon Earthquake vs. 128 HP / 0 Def Nidoqueen: 306-362 (86.6 - 102.5%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Flygon: 608-717 (167 - 196.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
4 SpA Empoleon Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Flygon: 340-404 (93.4 - 110.9%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

Thts not a 1hko btw and if u read my post correctly I didnt say they beat flygon 100% I simply stated flygon isnt ohkoing them. And the fact tht queen and penguin can ohko back. And thts assuming you have max attack as I feel like if you are running a defog set you would have a good amount of bulk on you as most defoggers sacrifice attacking prowess for bulk.

 

[warzoid]

To be fair, Skankovich did add "with any sort of boosting item" in the second post. Even with a Life Orb Flygon can't OHKO physically defensive versions though:

252 Atk Life Orb Flygon Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Nidoqueen: 283-335 (73.8 - 87.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Flygon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Empoleon: 281-330 (75.5 - 88.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

[Wanka]

To be fair, Skankovich did add "with any sort of boosting item" in the second post. Even with a Life Orb Flygon can't OHKO physically defensive versions though:

252 Atk Life Orb Flygon Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Nidoqueen: 283-335 (73.8 - 87.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Flygon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Empoleon: 281-330 (75.5 - 88.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery[/quote

I see that but thats why I said if ur running a defogger set then you should be running bulk as most defoggers do. Life orb defog flygon sounds kinda bad.

Ok idk why it put my reply inside the quote but w/e

 

[Wish9]

Just stop it! Its fast and powerful and the meta still favors it even with bulky water pressence. Offensive flying is really good right now, plus Aero can come in on other common threats like crobat and mega pidgeot. If you are running aqua tail, ypu can wall a lot of common ground types such as hippo, gligar, and donny. Ive had more sweeps with this thing in the suspect test than I did serperior. Its easy for a team to be unprepared for something like mega aero. Just stop

Sorry, I was thinking about Mega Aero from a defensive point of view.

 

[Yugi]

I really do want to talk about Chandelure

Chandelure From A- to A


Chandelure is a very specially invested attacking mon,with mediocre speed,allthough that could be fixed by a Choice Scarf.

Allthough the most common set is a Choice Scarf Chandelure,A Modest Choice Specs Chandelure does pack a special punch.

Here are some calcs to prove what i mean

252+ SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 24+ SpD Florges: 196-232 (54.4 - 64.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 24+ SpD Florges: 144-169 (40 - 46.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Thats very important because there are only a few special invested pokemon that can 2hko a florges


A Life Orb Calm Mind set causes more punches than a specs set

+1 252 SpA Life Orb Chandelure Energy Ball vs. 236 HP / 0 SpD Mega Blastoise: 367-434 (102.5 - 121.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO.

+252 SpA Life Orb Chandelure Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 130-153 (33.8 - 39.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO.

+1 Goodra has a base stat of Spd 150.So its really great to 3hko an assault vested base 150 Spd mon.

Also to mention the coverage it gets from its movepool.Energy ball gets rid of rock,water and ground weaknesses,Will-O-Wisp gets the physicall attackers be afraid a little bit more.

And after one calm mind it can take a dark pulse unless being critted.

252+ SpA Mega Launcher Mega Blastoise Dark Pulse vs. +1 0 HP / 4 SpD Chandelure: 214-254 (81.9 - 97.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO and can fire back a energy ball and beat a blastoise.

Allthough walled by hydreigon and other dark types who did say that HP Fairy is forbidden on Chandelure.

+1 252 SpA Life Orb Chandelure Hidden Power Fighting vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Hydreigon: 338-398 (104 - 122.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(338, 341, 346, 348, 354, 356, 361, 364, 369, 372, 377, 380, 385, 387, 393, 398)

Hidden Power Fighting covers those weaknesses aswell.

After getting 2 calm minds it reeks terror.

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Chandelure Fire Blast vs. 132 HP / 0 SpD Florges: 347-409 (105.1 - 123.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Chandelure Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Empoleon: 363-426 (97.8 - 114.8%) -- 81.3% chance.It also has a very high chance of OHKOing everysingle pokemon in UU.

It OHKOS florges.

It also is a great rapid spin switch-in,and revenge kill espeed switch in.

Thats my opinion on Chandelure.Allthough it has lots of weaknesses it can improve three of them with one single move.