Resource Don't Use That; Use This (ORAS Version)

[Toljik]

They are both fighting types, have fake out, and fast physical attackers. Regenerator shouldn't be used on mienshao when it has reckless and is ridiculously frail. Loppuny has perfect coverage in its dual stabs and has plenty of coverage options so mienshaos different coverage options doesnt make much of a difference. Granted, mienshao doesnt take up a mega slot and can hold items, which does give it some merit. But ninetails can hold items and doesnt take up a mega slot, but its outclassed by Zard Y. Mienshao isn't very different. I will state it again, mienshao has merit to it, but it's merits aren't enough to keep it from being overshadowed by loppuny. Forretress has merit, crobat has merit, but they're all overshadowed and aren't the best options. Usable? Yes. Overshadowed? Yes.

Regenerator is far from useless on Mienshao. It's mandatory on Substitute + Baton Pass sets, and eases the risk of using HJK in the same way that Scrappy does for Lopunny.

I just wanted to point out that forretress isn't overshadowed, it is the only suicide lead that can spin away other hazards and it gets explosion.

I'll do an analysis on Forretress if one hasn't been made already. While not actually outclassed by much, it has far too much difficulty spinning, and wishes it had a recovery move like Scizor and Skarmory do.

 

[Kurona]

Maybe I'm alone on this but I honestly think we should wait until Mienshao's placement on the viability rankings has been ultimately decided before we do anything like this on it.
Also this is taking up way too many posts. This is the don't-use-this thread not the Mienshao thread :U

 

[firehusky]

The only reason you should ever use Forretress is because of it's Custap Lead set which can set up hazards and go out with a bang with explosion. It doesn't really need a recovery move to do that, but in general Skarmory kind of does it's job better due to a better speed tier and taunt.

 

[havokchomp123]

Mienshao can use Regenerator to offset LO recoil and hazard damage if it goes with such a set to do wallbreaking. So it' not like it'd never run the ability.

Your Ninetails comparison falls flat. Ninetails was never used because it was a good wallbreaker (which is Zard-Y's main role), but because it was the only Drought user in OU. Ninetails didn't drop because Zard-Y does it's job better (I believe it was technically BL in Gen 5), but because Sun is no longer a particularly viable strategy in OU with the weather nerf. Zard-Y is a special wallbreaker that's afforded good and powerful move options because of Drought, but it is not used as Sun support.

Alright regenerator has use on mienshao ill grant u that, but the ninetails comparison was to prove that just because a pokemon doesn't take up a mega slot and hold items doesn't automatically make it viable. Plus ninetails isn't the only drought user in OU, Zard Y is too.

Regenerator is far from useless on Mienshao. It's mandatory on Substitute + Baton Pass sets, and eases the risk of using HJK in the same way that Scrappy does for Lopunny.



I'll do an analysis on Forretress if one hasn't been made already. While not actually outclassed by much, it has far too much difficulty spinning, and wishes it had a recovery move like Scizor and Skarmory do.

Sub baton pass on Mienshao is a thing? I know it was in gen 5 but I don't think that was a viable set in the X/Y days. Eh whatevs.
Sorry kurona about all the posts but that's just what happens when there are a difference of opinions. Ill probably delete some posts to prevent the thread from getting to blocked up.

 

[Anna says hi]

Don't use this:

Charizard @ Charizardite X
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 144 HP / 252 Atk / 112 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Dragon Claw
- Earthquake / Fire Punch / Flare Blitz
- Roost

Why it's bad:
While this set is truly dangerous, it fails to beat 2 of the most common pokemon in the metagame: Landorus-Therian and Rotom-Wash. Scarf Landorus-Therian can switch in on any move and force Charizard out with the threat of an OHKO with Earthquake, while Charizard fails to outspeed. Meanwhile, Rotom-Wash can 2HKO with Hydro Pump, preventing you from setting up on it.

Instead, use this:

Charizard @ Charizardite X
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 152 HP / 168 Atk / 4 SpD / 184 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Flare Blitz
- Dragon Claw
- Roost

Why it's better:
This set has more efficient EVs for the Bulky Dragon Dance set. The speed and nature allows it to outspeed Scarf Landorus-Therian after only one Dragon Dance, and OHKO it if it has taken any prior damage, with a high chance of OHKOing after Stealth Rock. The bulk insures that Rotom-Wash will never 2HKO with Hydro Pump, allowing you to easily switch in and use it as set-up bait, providing you have already mega evolved. Keep in mind that this set does slightly less damage than the above-mentioned set, so beware of some OHKOs turning into 2HKOs.

 

[firehusky]

Rotom-W is set up bait for Zard X no matter the set, as long as it has Roost; Zard X can just spam Roost until Hydro Pump misses.

 

[boltsandbombers]

Don't use this:

Charizard @ Charizardite X
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 144 HP / 252 Atk / 112 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Dragon Claw
- Earthquake / Fire Punch / Flare Blitz
- Roost

Why it's bad:
While this set is truly dangerous, it fails to beat 2 of the most common pokemon in the metagame: Landorus-Therian and Rotom-Wash. Scarf Landorus-Therian can switch in on any move and force Charizard out with the threat of an OHKO with Earthquake, while Charizard fails to outspeed. Meanwhile, Rotom-Wash can 2HKO with Hydro Pump, preventing you from setting up on it.

Instead, use this:

Charizard @ Charizardite X
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 152 HP / 168 Atk / 4 SpD / 184 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Flare Blitz
- Dragon Claw
- Roost

Why it's better:
This set has more efficient EVs for the Bulky Dragon Dance set. The speed and nature allows it to outspeed Scarf Landorus-Therian after only one Dragon Dance, and OHKO it if it has taken any prior damage, with a high chance of OHKOing after Stealth Rock. The bulk insures that Rotom-Wash will never 2HKO with Hydro Pump, allowing you to easily switch in and use it as set-up bait, providing you have already mega evolved. Keep in mind that this set does slightly less damage than the above-mentioned set, so beware of some OHKOs turning into 2HKOs.

I disagree with that EV spread. If you're running enough speed for choice scarf Landorus-T after a boost, why use a spread that cannot kill it after stealth rock damage? Use a spread of 104 HP / 220 Atk / 184 Spe, as it is the most efficient one due to that it secures the OHKO on Scarf Lando-T after Stealth Rock damage with +0 Flare Blitz (assuming you dd and then intimidate negates the boost), and as stated above avoiding the 2hko from Rotom-w'a hydro pump is not as important.

 

[Sanger Zonvolt]

Don't use this:

Charizard @ Charizardite X
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 144 HP / 252 Atk / 112 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Dragon Claw
- Earthquake / Fire Punch / Flare Blitz
- Roost

Why it's bad:
While this set is truly dangerous, it fails to beat 2 of the most common pokemon in the metagame: Landorus-Therian and Rotom-Wash. Scarf Landorus-Therian can switch in on any move and force Charizard out with the threat of an OHKO with Earthquake, while Charizard fails to outspeed. Meanwhile, Rotom-Wash can 2HKO with Hydro Pump, preventing you from setting up on it.

Instead, use this:

Charizard @ Charizardite X
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 152 HP / 168 Atk / 4 SpD / 184 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Flare Blitz
- Dragon Claw
- Roost

Why it's better:
This set has more efficient EVs for the Bulky Dragon Dance set. The speed and nature allows it to outspeed Scarf Landorus-Therian after only one Dragon Dance, and OHKO it if it has taken any prior damage, with a high chance of OHKOing after Stealth Rock. The bulk insures that Rotom-Wash will never 2HKO with Hydro Pump, allowing you to easily switch in and use it as set-up bait, providing you have already mega evolved. Keep in mind that this set does slightly less damage than the above-mentioned set, so beware of some OHKOs turning into 2HKOs.

Isn't Adamant ZardX still viable if you are willing to take the risk of having 1 less check to Lando-T? If you have 2-3 strong checks to it already, I don't see why you couldn't still choose to run Adamant ZardX. Yeah, being able to take on Lando-T is definitely a plus, but I don't think it's so vital that Adamant ZardX can't be used altogether. Also, in addition to what Bolts said, the difference in bulk is pretty much completely negligible when it comes to Rotom-W:

0 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 152 HP / 4 SpD Mega Charizard X: 141-166 (42 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 144 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 142-168 (42.6 - 50.4%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO

Heck, you're still pretty safe with the normal Jolly spread:
0 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 104 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 142-168 (43.9 - 52%) -- 11.7% chance to 2HKO

If you lose because of an 11.7% 2HKO chance, then you were just unlucky; you take bigger risks using Hydro Pump and Focus Blast. If you lose because of the 1.2% chance of a 2HKO running the Adamant spread, you probably wracked up some bad Karma prior to the battle.

 

[Random Passerby]

I saw this on the ladder yesterday so ....

Don't use this:

Clefable @ Chesto Berry
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 whatever
Bold Nature
- Cosmic Power
- Rest
- Stored Power
- Moonblast / Flamethrower / Sleep Talk

Why it's bad: On first glance, this set seems very good since it can boost it's defenses, ignore the opponent's boosts and can rid itself of status using Rest. However, looking closer reveals a lot of this set's flaws; an unboosted and uninvested Clefable is very weak and is easily Taunted or phazed out while it is setting up. Also, Rest + Chesto Berry is a one-time only "get out of jail free" card and you will be a sitting duck afterwards (as if you aren't enough of one already), giving the opponent free turns to do basically whatever they please. To make matters worse, it is very easy to pressure Clefable into clicking Rest, making it a liability.


Instead, use this:

Clefable @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 172 Def / 84 SpD
Calm Nature
- Calm Mind
- Moonblast
- Soft-Boiled
- Flamethrower / Focus Blast / Shadow Ball

Why it's better: While using this set, you can set up with Clefable all you want, considering it runs Calm Mind to overcome it's (for OU standards) lackluster SpA. While this set doesn't have the ability to ignore the opponent's boosts, it is harder to wear down due to access to a 50% recovery move and being immune to residual damage. As mentioned previously, Calm Mind allows Clefable to salvage its low Special Attack, allowing it to act as a win condition. By the way, the EV spread gives it a better chance to win against Mega Lopunny.

 

[DarkNostalgia]

Cosmic Power Clefable was already done >.<

 

[Kurona]

Cosmic Power Clefable was already done >.<

Yeah but this was a different version including Restalk.
That said maybe you should just highlight Rest + Sleep Talk here more than anything Random Passerby

 

[Anna says hi]

Gonna try again.

Do not EVER use this move:

Talonflame @ Choice Band
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- U-turn
- Brave Bird
- Flare Blitz
- Steel Wing

Why it's bad:
Steel wing seems perfect for the fourth attack on a banded Talonflame set: You can hit unsuspecting Rock types like Diancie and Tyranitar on the switch for a potential KO. However, it's just not ever clicked for two reasons. The first is that Tyranitar takes as much damage from U-Turn as it does from Steel Wing, and U-turn has the added benefit of retaining momentum. The second is that anything hit hard by Steel Wing is something Talonflame has no business staying in on anyway. This is especially true if not running maximum speed EVs, as Mega Diancie can then outspeed and obliterate you before you can even move. Talonflame would rather its teammates handle its checks rather than luring and KOing them itself.



Use one of these moves instead:

Talonflame @ Choice Band
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- U-turn
- Brave Bird
- Flare Blitz
- Tailwind / Will-o-Wisp / Roost

Why they're better:

The fourth moveslot of Choice Band Talonflame can be filled with three different choices. Priority Tailwind can help something outspeed a boosted threat that Talonflame can't kill in a pinch. Will-o-Wisp lures certain walls and Tyranitar and cripples them. Roost, arguably the most situational, can heal you on a predicted switch-out to help extend Talonflame's longevity. All three of these, no matter how situational, are better than Steel Wing in the fourth moveslot of Choice Band Talonflame.

 

[Grim]

Don't agree with that at all. Steel Wing is a perfectly fine move for Choice Band Talonflame which has a free moveslot anyway. Talonflame might not have business staying in against Diancie without Steel Wing, but that's exactly why you would use Steel Wing in the first place. It might not be the most common move but it is most definitely viable.

 

[Repeater1947]

Rotom-W's Items:
http://www.smogon.com/stats/2015-02/ou-1825.txt

Leftovers 79.237%
Chesto Berry 8.331%
Choice Scarf 6.949%
Choice Specs 1.942%
Other 3.541%

Still surprised as to see why this set is still used. Seriously, I see this shit on the ladder from time to time.

Don't use this

Rotom-Wash @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest / Timid Nature
- Volt Switch
- Hydro Pump
- Thunderbolt / Will-o-Wisp
- Trick

Why it's bad:

At first glance, Scarf Rotom-W has the ability to Trick its Choice Scarf to cripple walls, while being able to induce quick burns against physically offensive threats. In addition, it has the ability to revenge kill multiple offensive threats such as Mega Diancie, Landorus-I, Landorus-T Keldeo, Excadrill, as well as being able to beat Mega Charizard-Y and Mega Gyarados, provided the latter two were hit by a bit of prior damage. Due to its Scarf, it has such surprise factor when utilizing it. However, when utilizing an offensive Scarf Rotom-W set, you lose such valuable defensive capabilities. Due to its low HP, it's frail without defensive investment, losing the ability to pivot against several offensive threats. It can't take on many offensive threats, unlike the Defensive Rotom-W set could, and they will actually wear you down throughout the match without you having any form of recovery. Additionally, it relies on its Scarf too much in order to burn many threats in the metagame. It should also be taken note that getting locked into Will-o-Wisp can easily be taken advantage by opposing set-up sweepers/tanks/walls that are either Special attackers, Fire-types (especially those with Flash Fire) or Magic Bounce users. Pokemon that are Guts abusers are also able to switch to your Choice-locked Scrotom-W's WoW.

If you really wish on fitting Rotom-W, then...
Instead, use this

Rotom-Wash @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 216 Def / 44 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Hydro Pump
- Will-O-Wisp
- Pain Split

Why it's better:

While Scarf Rotom-W and Physically defensive Rotom-W play differently, the latter is the way to go. The job of Rotom-W in OU is to switch to physical hits. It's just better to tank the hit then cripple them with a Will-o-Wisp. With its bulk, it can stand many of the threats on the physical attacking spectrum. And with Leftovers recovery, it turns certain OHKOes to 2HKOes; 2HKOes to 3HKOes aimed at you. And the Pain Split recovery can be handy sometimes, by chipping off the opponent's health while being able to have the ability to recover some of your health in case your HP goes low. Oh and yeah, slow Volt Switches give setup sweepers room to breathe by having Rotom-W tanking the hit.

Hey wait, what if I want to revenge kill Mega Diancie, Keldeo, Excadrill, Mega Charizard-Y, Landorus-I, Landorus-T, Gyarados, and Mega Gyarados? I also think that a TrickScarf method is solid to cripple walls. Can I use Scrotom-W?

FUCK NO!

Instead, use one of these:

Latios (M) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Psyshock
- Surf / Thunderbolt / Hidden Power Fire
- Trick

Keldeo @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Justified
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Scald
- Secret Sword
- Hydro Pump
- Icy Wind

Why they're better:

With these Pokemon, they boast better coverage, and importantly a higher speed tier able to outspeed most of the meta when equipped with a Scarf. In addition, they hit harder than Scrotom-W and can actually switch in better on some of the said threats.

Latios has access to Trick, and can also revenge kill non-mega Gyarados and Mega Charizard-Y with Thunderbolt (though they need a bit of prior damage to secure a KO). Additionally, Latios is able to beat Keldeo through Psyshock, as well as Mega Diancie and non-AV Excadrill through Surf. Take note that with the great speed tier Latios has, it can still be able to outspeed a large portion of the metagame once its Scarf is gone, unlike Scrotom-W, who is reliant on its Choice Scarf to burn or beat several threats.

Scarf Keldeo on the other hand, is your ideal Water-type Scarf user who can check similar Pokemon that Scrotom-W can, such as Excadrill, Mega Gyarados, Mega Diancie, Landorus-I, and Landorus-T.

tl;dr Scrotom-W is quite bad for a Scarfer, as it is outclassed by better scarfers that provide the same utility while also hitting harder. Additionally, it foregoes its tanking defensive capabilities, which is the main reason to use Rotom-W in OU. Don't use Scrotom-W or any other offensive Rotom-W variant, ever. It's not funny.

 

[Kurona]

Don't use this:

Machamp @ Assault Vest
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 248 HP/252 Atk/8 Spd
Adamant/Jolly Nature
- Dynamic Punch
- Bullet Punch
- Knock Off
- Ice Punch/Stone Edge/Earthquake

~Moveset improvised from February Usage Stats
Why it's bad:
Machamp is mainly bad for being completely outclassed but I'll get to that soon enough. Let's face facts and say the one reason you're ever going to use this is No Guard Dynamic Punch. This is quite simply put an easy to counter gimmick; confusion is easily solved by switching out and no good player will ever have a problem taking it down. In addition, your priority in Bullet Punch is very weak and only particularly good for taking down fairies. Finally, with Assault Vest your task of being a bulky attacker is made harder with no good recovery.

Use this instead:

Conkeldurr @ Assault Vest
Ability: Guts/Iron Fist
EVs: 252 Atk / 236 SpD / 20 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Drain Punch
- Mach Punch
- Knock Off/Ice Punch
- Poison Jab/Stone Edge

Why it's better:
Conkeldurr outclasses Machamp in every way, shape and form giving the latter no real reason to be used. Stat wise it has slightly better Attack, HP and Defence making it superior already; and even it's lower Speed makes it a more viable choice on Trick Room teams. It's abilities complement it excellently; Guts allowing it to be a status absorber, Iron Fist giving a permanent boost to most it's attacks and you could even try out Sheer Force if you're desperate for extra damage on Ice Punch/Poison Jab/Stone Edge/Drain Punch. It's priority being STAB also makes it much more dangerous, and finally having Drain Punch for good recovery and offensive presence makes it a far superior user of Assault Vest.

 

[GnralLao]

My first post here!

Anyways, I was looking through the February usage stats and found something that really baffled me:


Don't use this:

Metagross @ anything not called Metagrossite
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe or 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Jolly or Adamant Nature
- Meteor Mash
- Earthquake / Hammer Arm / Stealth Rock / Agility / elemental punch / whatever
- Zen Headbutt / Hammer Arm / Stealth Rock / Agility / elemental punch / whatever
- Bullet Punch / Hammer Arm / Stealth Rock / Agility / elemental punch / whatever

It may not seem like much, but 5.6% of all Metagrosses were carrying other items then the Metagrossite such as Leftovers, Choice Band (faced one yesterday on PS!), Life Orb and others.

Why it's bad: Regular Metagross has less [Sp] Atk, [Sp] Def and speed than its Mega counterpart (and is hit harder by Knock Off), making its only attributes being having an item to hold and its Clear Body ability. Depriving Metagross of it's Mega Evolution translates into depriving it from the major stat boosts it has on every single one of them and its formidable ability Tough Claws. Some people might think having recovery via Leftovers or a Choice item could be a nice option for giving Metagross passive recovery or an element of surprise by hitting harder/faster respectively, but frankly, Metagross would be way better off at using its MegaStone to benefit from all the stat boosts and Tough Claws, giving it the upper hand on many OU threats, rather than having a tiny little bit of recovery, being stuck one a single move or being outspeed by a wide number of OU mons.

Use this instead:

Metagross @ Metagrossite
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Meteor Mash
- Zen Headbutt
- Grass Knot / Ice Punch / Bullet Punch
- Hammer Arm / Earthquake

Why it's better: I'm pretty sure everyone knows this by now, but that's not the case since I'm writing this post and therefore, I'll explain it one more time. Like stated before, Metagross gains massive stat boosts and arguably becomes the biggest OU threat upon MegaEvolving. With its speed being boosted to base 110, it's able to outspeed numerous OU threats, something regular Metagross achieves only when holding a Choice Scarf, but then it becomes a huge Pursuit bait since it can't change moves and doesn't hit as hard as it could. With it's attack being boosted to base 145 and and almost every move gaining a free LO boost due to Tough Claws (sorry Earthquake), MegaGross hits like a truck and only slightly less than Choice Band variants without being stuck on a single move (and they don't even have the same nature):

252+ Atk Choice Band Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 104+ Def Mew: 204-241 (50.4 - 59.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 104+ Def Mew: 175-207 (43.3 - 51.2%) -- 58.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

MegaGross also has much more bulk than its regular form, enabling it to easier come in on resisted / neutral hits (and even weaker super effective ones) even without Leftovers before outspeeding and KO / take a massive chunk of HP to the opposing mon.

144 SpA Fist Plate Arceus-Fighting Judgment vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Metagross: 186-219 (51 - 60.1%) -- 87.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

144 SpA Fist Plate Arceus-Fighting Judgment vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Metagross: 157-186 (52.1 - 61.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Overall, regular Metagross's pros over MegaGross are close to non-existent and MegaGross's qualities are overwhelmingly superior to those of regular Metagross, making MegaGross the better option the only option out of the two.

 

[DarkNostalgia]

Assault Vest Metagross is decent actually, I've seen top ladder players use it.

 

[GnralLao]

Assault Vest Metagross is decent actually, I've seen top ladder players use it.

Ok, you're probably right. Then again, what would be the advantages of using it over MegaGross (apart from the "free Mega slot" argument)? I need clarification on this since I'm clearly missing something here.

 

[AM]

Ok, you're probably right. Then again, what would be the advantages of using it over MegaGross (apart from the "free Mega slot" argument)? I need clarification on this since I'm clearly missing something here.

Better Lati switch in and a more dedicated pursuit trapper against the Latis and other defensive Psychics that can't threaten it such as Cresselia. You'll usually see it paired up with anything that likes Pursuit support, such as Keldeo and Landorus.

 

[Gimmick]

Based on what I've read, even in the archive in the first post, I feel like this thread is getting a bit out of hand. Some of these Pokemon have completely different roles, like the Rotom-W sets above. "Don't use Scarf Rotom-W, use Defensive Rotom-W" doesn't apply in every case. Scarf Rotom-W is a fast Volt-Switcher with SE STAB damage against ground types that also has access to Trick. Defensive Rotom-W is a blanket switch into a ton of physical attackers with the ability to burn. Scarf Rotom-W has amazing utility vs Stall because it can cripple defensive cores and support its partners to get past said cores. Rotom-W's typing is also very different from Latios and Keldeo (which are suggested alternatives), both of which cannot revenge kill things like Mega Pinsir or Talonflame. The list of differences goes on. TL;DR: Scarf Rotom-W and Defensive Rotom-W play different roles and should be chosen based on the rest of the team.

And that's just one example. The archive is full of things that are just so very different, like Forretress and Ferrothorn. Yes, they're both slow Steels that set up hazards, but a team may benefit from Rapid Spin support from Forretress which Ferrothorn does not offer. Another one is "Don't use Venusaur, use Mega Venusaur." Huh? Venusaur is a good partner to Charizard-Y as a Chlorophyll Sun sweeper, Mega Venusaur is a wall. They're completely different.

The best comparisons are the ones like the graphic in the original post. Vaporeon and Alomomola share the same role - bulky water and Wishpasser. Alomomola simply does its job better because of a much higher HP stat (for wishes and bulk), Knock Off access, and a much much better ability. On this page, another good one is Machamp and Conkeldurr - both bulky fighting types with Assault Vest, only Conk does it better because Machamp's marginally higher speed is practically irrelevant.

I think it'd be a good idea to stick to Pokemon with the exact same role where one outclasses the other.

EDIT: I was laddering just now and thought about this thread. What exactly is the goal? At first, I thought it was a good way to give insight to any player who is teambuilding, but every experienced OU player knows when a Pokemon outclasses another. I think the goal of this thread really should be to help newer/less experienced players--especially those who like to express their creative freedom of teambuilding and don't want to feel defined by the discriminatory rules of fascist Smogon University's OU tier (aka use Vileplume over Mega Venusaur). It might seem insignificant or useless to post things like "Use Mega Venusaur instead of Defensive Vileplume" or "Use Ferrothorn instead of Eviolite Ferroseed" hell even "Use CB Azumarill over CB Basculin," but these are things that would have helped me out when I was a new player. I remember thinking I could be the one to make Lapras viable in OU because I never got a simple and quick explanation as to why practically any other bulky water was a better choice.

A way to think about the sets that should be compared is this: any time you look at your teams or go to the RMT forums and see a Pokemon, you should come back to this thread, look at the archive, and immediately be able to say "replace that with this." On every team. If it doesn't apply to every team, newer/less experienced players may get confused and possibly replace perfectly competent Pokemon with ones that don't even fit the same role (i.e. the whole Rotom-W thing). I can't think of a single case where I'd prefer an AV Machamp over an AV Conkeldurr or a Wishpass Vaporeon over a Wishpass Alomomola. But I can think of several teams that would prefer a Scarf Rotom-W over a defensive one, AV Metagross over Mega Metagross, etc.

I rambled, sorry!

 

[Aragorn the King]

Based on what I've read, even in the archive in the first post, I feel like this thread is getting a bit out of hand. Some of these Pokemon have completely different roles, like the Rotom-W sets above. "Don't use Scarf Rotom-W, use Defensive Rotom-W" doesn't apply in every case. Scarf Rotom-W is a fast Volt-Switcher with SE STAB damage against ground types that also has access to Trick. Defensive Rotom-W is a blanket switch into a ton of physical attackers with the ability to burn. Scarf Rotom-W has amazing utility vs Stall because it can cripple defensive cores and support its partners to get past said cores. Rotom-W's typing is also very different from Latios and Keldeo (which are suggested alternatives), both of which cannot revenge kill things like Mega Pinsir or Talonflame. The list of differences goes on. TL;DR: Scarf Rotom-W and Defensive Rotom-W play different roles and should be chosen based on the rest of the team.

And that's just one example. The archive is full of things that are just so very different, like Forretress and Ferrothorn. Yes, they're both slow Steels that set up hazards, but a team may benefit from Rapid Spin support from Forretress which Ferrothorn does not offer. Another one is "Don't use Venusaur, use Mega Venusaur." Huh? Venusaur is a good partner to Charizard-Y as a Chlorophyll Sun sweeper, Mega Venusaur is a wall. They're completely different.

The best comparisons are the ones like the graphic in the original post. Vaporeon and Alomomola share the same role - bulky water and Wishpasser. Alomomola simply does its job better because of a much higher HP stat (for wishes and bulk), Knock Off access, and a much much better ability. On this page, another good one is Machamp and Conkeldurr - both bulky fighting types with Assault Vest, only Conk does it better because Machamp's marginally higher speed is practically irrelevant.

I think it'd be a good idea to stick to Pokemon with the exact same role where one outclasses the other.

EDIT: I was laddering just now and thought about this thread. What exactly is the goal? At first, I thought it was a good way to give insight to any player who is teambuilding, but every experienced OU player knows when a Pokemon outclasses another. I think the goal of this thread really should be to help newer/less experienced players--especially those who like to express their creative freedom of teambuilding and don't want to feel defined by the discriminatory rules of fascist Smogon University's OU tier (aka use Vileplume over Mega Venusaur). It might seem insignificant or useless to post things like "Use Mega Venusaur instead of Defensive Vileplume" or "Use Ferrothorn instead of Eviolite Ferroseed" hell even "Use CB Azumarill over CB Basculin," but these are things that would have helped me out when I was a new player. I remember thinking I could be the one to make Lapras viable in OU because I never got a simple and quick explanation as to why practically any other bulky water was a better choice.

A way to think about the sets that should be compared is this: any time you look at your teams or go to the RMT forums and see a Pokemon, you should come back to this thread, look at the archive, and immediately be able to say "replace that with this." On every team. If it doesn't apply to every team, newer/less experienced players may get confused and possibly replace perfectly competent Pokemon with ones that don't even fit the same role (i.e. the whole Rotom-W thing). I can't think of a single case where I'd prefer an AV Machamp over an AV Conkeldurr or a Wishpass Vaporeon over a Wishpass Alomomola. But I can think of several teams that would prefer a Scarf Rotom-W over a defensive one, AV Metagross over Mega Metagross, etc.

I rambled, sorry!

I agree wholeheartedly. I tried to enforce what you're talking about in regards to Pokemon generally thought to be viable, but not so much with ones that were not. Now, I think from now on comparisons should be done completely based on roles, with no exceptions for sets or Pokemon thought to be bad, but without a true replacement. I tried to edit the archive a bit to reflect this, and I've also added in more recent entries.

 

[michaeloche]

Apparently, due to post deletion, the rules part of the OP is now quoting one of my posts. I didn't write that.

OT:

Don't use this:

with Megahorn or Stone Edge

Why it's bad: These are not bad moves for normal Heracross to run. In fact, they're encouraged, because they are powerful and fairly consistent, assuming they hit. But if you mega evolve, they become outclassed.

Instead, use this:

with Pin Missile and Rock Blast

Why it's better: These moves are better on Mega Heracross than normal because of Skill Link. Due to that, they both effectively have 125 BP, as opposed to 120 and 100 for Stone Edge, respectively. They are also more accurate (95 and 90% vs. 85 and 80%), and due to hitting multiple times, laugh at Substitute users and are more likely to get some timely crits.

I'm bringing this up because Heracronite is getting more usage than either Pin Missile or Rock Blast, for some reason. Not a lot, but enough to mention. And no, I'm not going to argue Heracronite vs. other items, that's for another thread.

 

[Random Passerby]

Frankly, I'm surprised Air Slash Mega Charizard-Y haven't been brought up yet (or if it is, it isn't in the archieves). It can run Focus Blast, Dragon Pulse, Earthquake and Roost in that slot. The only relevant thing Air Slash hits is Mega Venusaur, unless I have forgotten something.

 

[Karxrida]

Frankly, I'm surprised Air Slash Mega Charizard-Y haven't been brought up yet (or if it is, it isn't in the archieves). It can run Focus Blast, Dragon Pulse, Earthquake and Roost in that slot. The only relevant thing Air Slash hits is Mega Venusaur, unless I have forgotten something.

Not even Mega Venusaur.

252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Air Slash vs. 232 HP / 4 SpD Mega Venusaur: 242-288 (67.4 - 80.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 232 HP / 4 SpD Thick Fat Mega Venusaur in Sun: 270-318 (75.2 - 88.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[Kurona]

Frankly, I'm surprised Air Slash Mega Charizard-Y haven't been brought up yet (or if it is, it isn't in the archieves). It can run Focus Blast, Dragon Pulse, Earthquake and Roost in that slot. The only relevant thing Air Slash hits is Mega Venusaur, unless I have forgotten something.

No no; it has been brought up