Gen 6 ORAS Ubers Viability Ranking Thread

[Fireburn]

Nothing wrong about replay 3 either. That Fusion Flare wasn't a "unsucessful attempt at rmeoving Klefki" since it managed to force a switch (the opponent probably thought it was non-choiced) and did quite a bit of damage to Mega Kanga. Then it destroyed Arceus-Rock with Draco Meteor, destroyed P-Don with Ice Beam and by the time Klefki was left it didn't really matter anymore since the game was basically won.

To be honest, it was pretty obvious that the Kyurem-W was Choice Specs - 25% dmg on Arceus-Rock from Fusion Flare is the absolute max roll from Modest Specs. I guess it is disputable whether or not the double to Kangaskhan was a bad play, but he didn't really need to risk it as his only Rocky switch-in was a burned and weakened Arceus-Ground that could be dealt with via defensive Yveltal or a healthy Kangaskhan...and Kyurem-W getting KOed by Judgment would have resulted its user losing pretty handily to said Yveltal/Kangaskhan. Heck if it was CM Arceus-Rock it could have just forced its way through Groundceus right then and there, forcing Fate to sac Gengar to kill it and leaving him open to a sweep from Kangaskhan. So yeah, if the opponent had CM I'd have to say that he misplayed.

With that said, when Kyu-W switched into Blissey Reffrey could have expected a Heal Bell after the opposing wallceus got Toxic'd and since Blissey is the main reason besides Tyranitar you'd even run Focus Blast on Kyu-W, there was nothing wrong about it. Oh and 2 Focus Blasts msised by the way, so don't outright lie to us like we didn't watch. The replay shows why PDon and Mega Mence appreciate Kyu-W's support so much, as it has been pointed out.

I don't really think this replay is defensible - not only would Kyurem-W have been completely screwed if it took a Toxic on the switch, it wouldn't have beaten Blissey anyway, or rather it shouldn't have, but he got a SDef drop on one of his Focus Blasts that allowed him to 2HKO the Blissey, which was quite lucky considering Focus Blast's shoddy accuracy, low PP, and low proc rate of actually getting the SDef drop. If the drop didn't occur, the Blissey could simply recover until Kyurem-W ran out of Focus Blasts and then kill the dragon at its leisure. He also sacced Diancie for no reason (a simple calc would have shown that Blissey easily survives 2 Focus Blasts at full HP) - again, Blissey still (usually) wins 1v1.

PDon/MMence really don't need Kyurem-W so much...it's main use for wallbreaking is chewing up Steels/fat things like TTar which is more helpful to other predominantly special attacking Pokemon like Xerneas/Lati@s, Xerneas being particularly notable since it covers some of Kyurem-W's weaknesses while also sharing some of its checks.

Also stop comparing Kyu-W with Excadrill. Exca has 88 base speed for starters, Kyu-W has 95 which is an important benchmark in ubers since it outspeeds all the base 90's and speed ties with Rayquaza. Secondly are we comparing a physical attacker to a special attacker? Seriously? Thidly Ground STAB is nowhere near as good as Ice STAB and Steel has worse neutral coverage than Dragon.

The real point here was that Kyurem-W doesn't offer much in the way of team support or role compression outside of raw power. While that certainly has its benefits, Kyurem-W's lack of extra defensive utility due to its crappy defensive typing limits its ability to find a meaningful place on a lot of teams. Hack brought up Excadrill to highlight the significant extra utility it gave that particular team which would allow for Arceus/PGroudon to take up the mantle of "really strong wallbreaker" while also leaving the team more secure against a lot of top threats.

Seriously this is degenerating into a "glass half full/half empty" fallacy fest and you're trolling just as hard for acting like Kyu-W is deadweight and ignoring its qualities.

No, the point of his post was to explain why those replays were poor examples of Kyurem-W's viability. Don't get me wrong, I don't think Kyurem-W is a bad mon, but the given examples certainly don't help its case.

 

[dice]

leave mence as is; in no way is it p-don tier and it is as splashable as the pokemon in the current tier its in

drop gengar. it's a far worse check to things like ekiller and pdon's dominance kinda hinders its success. mence is normally a ~better option~ for a gengar slot imo, and requires a lot more effort to build around. there are some cool sets, but it still has that nasty 4mss and it can never entirely cover the team's needs.

drop arc-dark and yveltal imo. they both have a pretty cool niche of covering arc-ghost, mewtwo, and a few other things; however, i don't dig either one of these pokemon. u often forgo yveltal for ho-oh in teambuilding with its only notable advantage being a better mewtwo / groudon check. the xerneas coverage from ho-oh is huge which is why yveltal is much harder to scrap onto a squad. arc-dark is pretty niche and i've never seen a solid oras team feature it.. i like other arceus more

 

[Firebird Maniac]

I support dropping Mega Gengar to somewhere in A. I think the description "first to be considered to fulfill certain roles" suits it very well, in that it's probably the best in the game at flat out removing material. But I wouldn't call it "extremely diverse", "capable of fulfilling multiple roles on both defensive and offensive ends" (Destiny Bond? I mean you really don't see this mon outside of HO teams), or "virtually zero opportunity cost" (Mence?). Personally I would drop it straight to A, but I can see it going to A+ as well.

Speaking of ranking descriptions, I think Lati@s and maybe Pyogre should be going to S-. Lati@s, without a doubt, are "capable of fullfiling multiple roles on both defensive and offensive ends", whether it's checking PDon through Levitate, checking Pyogre (among other special attackers) through godly special bulk, or Defog, or clean with Calm Mind + Psyshock, or simply hit and run with a powerful Draco Meteor. There is virtually zero opportunity cost: you don't take up a mega slot or anything. Basically you can throw them on any team that wants a Kyogre check / check to a few Arc forms like Rock / Defogger / Secondary PDon check and they almost never turn into a liability.

The same can be argued about Primal Kyogre. I am less adamant on this one because it does require some team support to function against PDon + Lati@s. Still, it hits hard and is very specially bulky. It's unique in its ability to hit PDon with a 4x effective move (outside of Rayquaza but that's kinda gimmicky). It's also influential enough on the metagame to force non HO teams to have another check to it other than PDon.

I'm gonna support keeping Yveltal where it is. Personally I think the LO set is mostly outclassed by Ho-Oh. But the physically defensive set is still quite unique. It's one of the very few thing that can reliably win a 1v1 against a +2 Ekiller (that lacks Stone Edge, and even ones that do have Stone Edge if no SR), whereas something like Will-O-Wisp Arceus is mostly 2HKOed if they don't win the speed tie (or if Will-O-Wisp misses R.I.P). The point is: Yveltal has the most naturally powerful Foul Play in the game in a tier full of physical threats, and it has the bulk and recovery to quite consistently beat at least one of them in a match. This is on top of the usual check to Arc-Ghost and Mewtwo etc. I think A+ is fine.

 

[Pixel Turtle]

I have some questions as a noob. Why are Latios and Latias higher than their respective megas? And why is Wobbuffet and Hippowdon so high?

 

[jordanthejq12]

Soul Dew. Because it's legal in Ubers and provides a much greater boost than going mega, there's pretty much no reason to use Mega Latis.

 

[Freeroamer]

Lati@s - the stat boosts granted by Soul Dew far outweighs the stat boosts granted by their Megas, and also keeps your mega slot free so that you can use something else such as Salamence.

Wobbuffet - Has a niche as one of the better Mewtwo checks since StallTwo went down in usage in ORAS and also can create a free turn of set-up for sweepers such as Salamence and Primal Groudon thanks to Encore.

Hippowdon - I really don't know, I asked for this to be moved down a while ago as it doesn't really have much of a niche in the metagame anymore.

 

[Dilwar]

I have some questions as a noob. Why are Latios and Latias higher than their respective megas? And why is Wobbuffet and Hippowdon so high?

Soul Dew gives a significantly greater boost than their mega stones, and doesn't have the opportunity cost of using a mega.

Wobbuffet can be good to open up set up opportunities for things like Mega Salamence, Xerneas, Ekiller with its Shadow Tag Encore, and can trap and remove things like Mewtwo or anything else that can't hit it for too much damage.

Hippowdon was decent in XY but it's bad now, I don't know why it's ranked anymore.

 

[Funbot28]

Can Primal-Kyogre ever go S with P-Don existing?

 

[DragonAscent]

Can Primal-Kyogre ever go S with P-Don existing?

That's one of the big reasons it would go to s; hitting pdon with water type attacks and canceling the sun with almost no opportunity cost is pretty huge.

 

[8-BIT Luster]

Has Landorus-I been rejected for an analysis, if one was even written?
I've been playing around with it and it seems to be a really powerful, if not that fast, mon. Being able to OHKO 248 HP Ho-Oh like 93% of the time when you have a timid nAture is great, and you can always run naive to ensure the OHKO. HP Ice also drops mence and lando outspeds it pre-mega.
it also OHKOES SDef PDon after rocks iirc, on my phone rn.
Its a pretty dope nichemon, and I would put it at C if there's any support for this.

 

[SG-58]

it also OHKOES SDef PDon after rocks iirc, on my phone rn.

Confirming this.

Timid
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Groudon-Primal: 351-416 (86.8 - 102.9%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Groudon-Primal: 351-416 (86.8 - 102.9%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Modest
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Groudon-Primal: 385-455 (95.2 - 112.6%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Groudon-Primal: 385-455 (95.2 - 112.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock


Also, so this post isn't just calcs, I propose moving Zekrom up to B+ from B (this might have been done before if it has just tell me). It has decent coverage in both of its STAB moves (yes, Proudon and Xerneas exist), which, when paired with a choice item or a life orb, can put in work for an offensive team. I know it's not A material with Proudon around, but isn't it better than at least Wobbuffet and Skarmory (and Palkia for that matter)?

 

[zf]

Also, so this post isn't just calcs, I propose moving Zekrom up to B+ from B (this might have been done before if it has just tell me). It has decent coverage in both of its STAB moves (yes, Proudon and Xerneas exist), which, when paired with a choice item or a life orb, can put in work for an offensive team. I know it's not A material with Proudon around, but isn't it better than at least Wobbuffet and Skarmory (and Palkia for that matter)?

Zekrom is definitely not B+ material in this metagame. As you mentioned, P-Don and Xerneas limit it's effectiveness and force it to win 50/50s just to use its STABs. In addition, Groundceus and Ferrothorn are real pains as well. Zekrom also brings very little defensive utility to the table (1-time shaky Ho-Oh/P-Ogre switch in). Scarf is a liability and Mixed LO is revenge killed easily, despite being a pain to switch in to. Honestly, I'd use Skarm and Wobb over Zekrom almost any day of the week.

On the topic of Skarm, I'd like to see it in B+, right alongside Ferro. Yes, it can be hard to fit Skarm on a team since it clashes w/ a decent number of Xern checks. However, it is a really useful mon in the meta. Skarm is an amazing check to MMence, EKiller, Groundceus, PDon w/o fire coverage, Ray w/o fire coverage, Excadrill, and more. It has reliable recovery and most importantly, Spikes, allowing it to capitalize on forced switches. It is a real pain for a lot of teams and is quite underrated.

 

[orch]

I disagree with Skarmory in B+. I feel like there needs to be usage to justify the promotion. IMO, most of passive stall mons (see clefable and ferrothorn) are inherently bad in this metagame, even though they offer immense utility. They just cant stand up to the offensive pressure in ORAS. I think that Ferrothorn, Clefable, and Skarmory all deserve a demotion honestly. Also, in addition to these niche defensive utility mons, I feel like it's time to demote Lugia down. Stall has proven to be outstandingly bad in this metagame, and Lugia is the epitome of that. I do realize that Lugia is still the best Toxic staller, but that's all it can do now lol. I've tried bulky defog set and honestly it's awful. The prevalence of Klefki and Excadrill is really bad for Lugia in general. You can easily build your team in way that you can just ignore Lugia and force a pp stall for win by just having a steel pokemon and hazard control.

Also demote Scizor to C+ or something plz. It does have a niche but its just a sucky mon thats mediocre at everything it does.

 

[8-BIT Luster]

I agree with dropping Lugia down. It is stall incarnate, and many have tried to fit it onto a team and have it do shit (cough cough Lugia + HO) but sadly it doesn't. its only niche is in being an incredibly fat Toxic staller that slaughters momentum and serves to piss off your opponent for like 3 turns before it gets statused and killed. In addition, stuff like Dialga or Klefki that don't care at all about Lugia are really common, and just ignore and eventually beat Lugia, as orch somewhat mentioned. Plus, Aromatherapy Xerneas is also becoming the standard, and can find many opportunities to cleanse the party.
Also Defog Lugia is just bad pls don't use.

About Landorus, most SDef PDon only run 200 HP as it is, and I've seen some Impish SDef PDon (still dunno why.)
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 200 HP / 252+ SpD Primal Groudon: 351-416 (89.7 - 106.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 200 HP / 252 SpD Primal Groudon: 385-455 (98.4 - 116.3%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO (no rocks)

0- Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Rock Slide vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Ho-Oh: 437-515 (105.3 - 124%) -- guaranteed OHKO (vs. Choice Band Ho-Oh)

These are kind of cool, too:
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. 184 HP / 0 SpD Xerneas: 328-387 (74.7 - 88.1%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 348-411 (91.3 - 107.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
That's insane.
Despite this, Landorus is frail as balls.

 

[Firebird Maniac]

I agree with dropping Lugia down. It is stall incarnate, and many have tried to fit it onto a team and have it do shit (cough cough Lugia + HO) but sadly it doesn't. its only niche is in being an incredibly fat Toxic staller that slaughters momentum and serves to piss off your opponent for like 3 turns before it gets statused and killed. In addition, stuff like Dialga or Klefki that don't care at all about Lugia are really common, and just ignore and eventually beat Lugia, as orch somewhat mentioned. Plus, Aromatherapy Xerneas is also becoming the standard, and can find many opportunities to cleanse the party.
Also Defog Lugia is just bad pls don't use.

About Landorus, most SDef PDon only run 200 HP as it is, and I've seen some Impish SDef PDon (still dunno why.)
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 200 HP / 252+ SpD Primal Groudon: 351-416 (89.7 - 106.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 200 HP / 252 SpD Primal Groudon: 385-455 (98.4 - 116.3%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO (no rocks)

0- Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Rock Slide vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Ho-Oh: 437-515 (105.3 - 124%) -- guaranteed OHKO (vs. Choice Band Ho-Oh)

These are kind of cool, too:
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. 184 HP / 0 SpD Xerneas: 328-387 (74.7 - 88.1%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 348-411 (91.3 - 107.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
That's insane.
Despite this, Landorus is frail as balls.

Support Primal Groudon has no reason not to run full HP, unless if running the offensive SR set with D-Tail, PB and Stone Edge (then they would use Adamant and significant Atk investment).

Impish/Relaxed and 52 Def EVs allows Primal Groudon to always survive a +2 Earthquake from Jolly E-killer after taking one round of resisted SR damage. So a common spread you will see is 248/208 special bulk.

I do not agree with Lugia dropping. Lacking in any real offensive pressure it may be, but using the HO team with Lugia to blanket check things example commonly seen in lower ladder does not make for a strong argument. These teams are made by inexperienced players who took the "easy" way out against too many threats, and does not provide any real support or synergy to Lugia. It's like using Ho-Oh on a team with no Defog and then proceed to say that Ho-Oh is bad.

The fact remains that it is the sturdiest Pokemon in the tier thanks to Multiscale, reliable recovery, a myriad of support moves and great mixed bulk. This makes it the centerpiece of any successful stall team in ORAS (which makes most Stall teams look kinda really similar). You may diss Stall all you want, and it's true it's not the greatest archetype in this meta, but it's far from dead. And Pokes on Stall teams are not meant to wall the tier all by themselves, just like sweepers aren't meant to sweep everything in their way (we had one such sweeper and it's already banned). You still need team support to handle checks and counters, like all Pokemon do. Just by listing a few Steel types that ignore Toxic and say "Lugia is bad" also does not make for a good argument.

I believe Lugia should stay in A because it is simply the best at Toxic stalling and tanking hits (hence "typically the first to be considered to fulfill certain roles"). If you're using a Stall team, there is zero opportunity cost in using Lugia. It does have the opportunity cost of forcing you to run a stall team, but it's not as bad as it sounds: Mega Gengar pretty much forces you to run HO while Ho-Oh forces you to run Defog hence pretty hard to fit on HO. And you should have a clear cut game plan as you start to build your team anyway, so running Stall is mostly a conscientious decision on the player's part. Hence "have very little opportunity cost" is justified. It has significant utility to offer, with its great bulk and support move pool, and the only real support it needs are Cleric and Defog, which most teams, especially Stall, will have regardless.

IMO the only reason it's not ranked higher, is that Stall is an inferior and less varied play style than Bulky Offense and Hyper Offense as of now. But it hasn't fallen so far that its best abuser can't even manage an A.

 

[bsu]

It combines a check to both Kyogre and Xerneas into one (nothing else can boast of doing this)

lol twave s-toss gg ;]

 

[Da Pizza Man]

lol twave s-toss gg ;]

And has actual offensive presence and versitility lol gg

 

[8-BIT Luster]

Support Primal Groudon has no reason not to run full HP, unless if running the offensive SR set with D-Tail, PB and Stone Edge (then they would use Adamant and significant Atk investment).

Impish/Relaxed and 52 Def EVs allows Primal Groudon to always survive a +2 Earthquake from Jolly E-killer after taking one round of resisted SR damage. So a common spread you will see is 248/208 special bulk.

I do not agree with Lugia dropping. Lacking in any real offensive pressure it may be, but using the HO team with Lugia to blanket check things example commonly seen in lower ladder does not make for a strong argument. These teams are made by inexperienced players who took the "easy" way out against too many threats, and does not provide any real support or synergy to Lugia. It's like using Ho-Oh on a team with no Defog and then proceed to say that Ho-Oh is bad.

The fact remains that it is the sturdiest Pokemon in the tier thanks to Multiscale, reliable recovery, a myriad of support moves and great mixed bulk. This makes it the centerpiece of any successful stall team in ORAS (which makes most Stall teams look kinda really similar). You may diss Stall all you want, and it's true it's not the greatest archetype in this meta, but it's far from dead. And Pokes on Stall teams are not meant to wall the tier all by themselves, just like sweepers aren't meant to sweep everything in their way (we had one such sweeper and it's already banned). You still need team support to handle checks and counters, like all Pokemon do. Just by listing a few Steel types that ignore Toxic and say "Lugia is bad" also does not make for a good argument.

I believe Lugia should stay in A because it is simply the best at Toxic stalling and tanking hits (hence "typically the first to be considered to fulfill certain roles"). If you're using a Stall team, there is zero opportunity cost in using Lugia. It does have the opportunity cost of forcing you to run a stall team, but it's not as bad as it sounds: Mega Gengar pretty much forces you to run HO while Ho-Oh forces you to run Defog hence pretty hard to fit on HO. And you should have a clear cut game plan as you start to build your team anyway, so running Stall is mostly a conscientious decision on the player's part. Hence "have very little opportunity cost" is justified. It has significant utility to offer, with its great bulk and support move pool, and the only real support it needs are Cleric and Defog, which most teams, especially Stall, will have regardless.

IMO the only reason it's not ranked higher, is that Stall is an inferior and less varied play style than Bulky Offense and Hyper Offense as of now. But it hasn't fallen so far that its best abuser can't even manage an A.

By no means was my argument fully what I wanted to say, i was just pressed for time lol. Lugia HO is bad, everybody knows that, not a real reason. It's just a reason to not run Lugia HO. Steel types are also not a valid reason, but they're one of the issues Lugia faces.
Lugia is insanely bulky, and a first choice for stall. The issue with Lugia's rank is more of a result of just the metagame shifting against Lugia. Stall has become quite hard to use and has limited in options in ORAS, but of course is by no means dead or bad. Lugia should also not be a check to everything, stall usually has multiple checks to big threats, so Lugia's walling pressure should be alleviated. It's got a good support movepool, and Multiscale is ridiculously good, but that said, it's just not as good as it was in XY. It suffers from kind of the same things as Palkia. They are both very good Pokemon (albeit for different roles,) but the metagame just isn't good for them. Palkia had to deal with PDon and Soul Dew, and Lugia has to deal with stuff like Mega Diancie and the increased use of Pokemon that just beat Lugia, or metagame trends like Stone Edge EKiller or Aromatherapy GeoXern (geoxern doesn't beat Lugia if it has multiscale up, and even then, it's meh without Thunder. I don't think Lugia should be B or anything, just a small drop. It certainly hasn't gotten better is all I'm saying. Maybe A-?

 

[Funbot28]

I firmly believe

and

are deserving of S or S- Rank at this point. Soul Dew tremendously increases there strength and bulk, and they can run numerous sets to fit your team (mainly Defog). They can also check two of the most defining threats atm (being P-Don and P-Ogre) simultaneously.

There are quite splashable on any team play style, and sometimes more effective when running both.

A few calcs...

252 SpA Soul Dew Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Primal Groudon: 270-318 (66.8 - 78.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Soul Dew Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Primal Kyogre: 211-250 (52.2 - 61.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Primal Kyogre Ice Beam vs. 212 HP / 0 SpD Soul Dew Latias: 146-174 (41.2 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+1 4 SpA Dread Plate Arceus-Dark Judgment vs. 212 HP / 0 SpD Soul Dew Latias: 242-288 (68.3 - 81.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Soul Dew Latios Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 271-321 (70.9 - 84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Moonblast vs. 212 HP / 0 SpD Soul Dew Latias: 246-290 (69.4 - 81.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Soul Dew Latios Psyshock vs. 184 HP / 28 Def Xerneas: 199-235 (45.3 - 53.5%) -- 39.5% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Soul Dew Latios Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Ho-Oh: 214-253 (51.5 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Mega Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 212 HP / 0 SpD Soul Dew Latias: 140-168 (39.5 - 47.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

This Pokes became staples in the ORAS Ubers metagame, due to their capability of running different sets, the immense team support they provide and their ability to check two of the most monstrous mons atm. I could see S Rank, but S- may sound more realistic, as people are preparing for them now (which means they are defining)

 

[Hack]

By no means was my argument fully what I wanted to say, i was just pressed for time lol. Lugia HO is bad, everybody knows that, not a real reason. It's just a reason to not run Lugia HO. Steel types are also not a valid reason, but they're one of the issues Lugia faces.
Lugia is insanely bulky, and a first choice for stall. The issue with Lugia's rank is more of a result of just the metagame shifting against Lugia. Stall has become quite hard to use and has limited in options in ORAS, but of course is by no means dead or bad. Lugia should also not be a check to everything, stall usually has multiple checks to big threats, so Lugia's walling pressure should be alleviated. It's got a good support movepool, and Multiscale is ridiculously good, but that said, it's just not as good as it was in XY. It suffers from kind of the same things as Palkia. They are both very good Pokemon (albeit for different roles,) but the metagame just isn't good for them. Palkia had to deal with PDon and Soul Dew, and Lugia has to deal with stuff like Mega Diancie and the increased use of Pokemon that just beat Lugia, or metagame trends like Stone Edge EKiller or Aromatherapy GeoXern (geoxern doesn't beat Lugia if it has multiscale up, and even then, it's meh without Thunder. I don't think Lugia should be B or anything, just a small drop. It certainly hasn't gotten better is all I'm saying. Maybe A-?

Lugia is amazing and I've seen it fit on balance too (can work with Klefki to forme a pretty ok backbone). How can a mon that is one of the few answers to Mence/Pdon be considered worse than before? I don't even know what you are talking about when comparing to Palkia because the changes that came with ORAS heavily favored Lugia (a more physical meta, less Gengar). I'd say it's close to A+ and I'm legit concerned with why people aren't using it more since it's one of the best ways to secure yourself against a whole bunch of threats.

Latios and Latias are pretty silly mons. Pursuit trapped, easily lured and disposed by Dtail Groudon. They can't hurt stall at all. Those calcs prove that they can hit hard on mons that doesn't resist their attacks, which is hardly all there is to talk about damage wise. What do you do vs a team with a steel type or a pursuiter? It's hard to opt for a coverage move, there aren't don't really have many strong options vs steels/ttar that are easy to fit due to the cost of not using CM/Defog. Latis are by no means but but S-rank is pushing it, I have seen nothing that makes them even near the level of the current S mons.

 

[Minority]

Latias and Latios are certainly not S rank material. If you are using Latias as your team's primary Ogre check you are going to struggle against builds that have ttar + Ogre or even Metagross + Ogre. It also doesn't help that Ice Beam got much more spamable coming off of Kyogre, and like Hack already mentioned, D Tail can prevent you from being able to switch into the other primal that Latias intended to check. Running a sub-optimal move like Grass Knot can help the ttar + Ogre matchup a bit, but this only further demonstrates the flaws that Latias and Latios have. Not only are they poor at breaking stall, but they don't preform that great against offense either, offering little defensive synergy because EKiller / Xern / Mence / Offensive Ghostceus / D Claw P Don just go right through it. It's not that difficult for the eon twins to be overloaded either, so I don't get why these two were nominated for S.

 

[8-BIT Luster]

Lugia is amazing and I've seen it fit on balance too (can work with Klefki to forme a pretty ok backbone). How can a mon that is one of the few answers to Mence/Pdon be considered worse than before? I don't even know what you are talking about when comparing to Palkia because the changes that came with ORAS heavily favored Lugia (a more physical meta, less Gengar). I'd say it's close to A+ and I'm legit concerned with why people aren't using it more since it's one of the best ways to secure yourself against a whole bunch of threats.

Latios and Latias are pretty silly mons. Pursuit trapped, easily lured and disposed by Dtail Groudon. They can't hurt stall at all. Those calcs prove that they can hit hard on mons that doesn't resist their attacks, which is hardly all there is to talk about damage wise. What do you do vs a team with a steel type or a pursuiter? It's hard to opt for a coverage move, there aren't don't really have many strong options vs steels/ttar that are easy to fit due to the cost of not using CM/Defog. Latis are by no means but but S-rank is pushing it, I have seen nothing that makes them even near the level of the current S mons.

Lugia is not bad at all, no. I've never seen Lugia on balance before, but I'll take your word for it.
What I meant by comparing Palkia to Lugia is that ORAS added a few new threats that beat Lugia (while it added just as many that Lugia beats, to be completely fair, while Palkia didn't really get anything that it could beat, so I see your point.) Lugia is one of the best answers to Mence and PDon, that is very true. I mean, it's just something I was looking at and thinking about. I'm not a big fan of Lugia (not why I thought it should be dropped.) You did bring up some points that I really should have noticed, so I rescind my statement, as you definitely know better than me tbh. I don't think it should be A+, but it should certainly never be B, ever, which is why I supported A-.

Also the eon twins are not s-rank material. They're very easily trapped, aren't very good Ogre checks, can't come in on PDon unless you know that it isn't running a Dragon move (which is only like support or double dance don, and even then support usually runs Dragon Tail if not Roar,) and have some 4mss, as they can't deal with Tyranitar/POgre/whatever without suffering from the opportunity cost of not using Defog or Calm Mind. Plus, hasn't BlizzOgre been going around in order to beat Latias as it is?

 

[Fyuop]

Latias and Latios are certainly not S rank material. If you are using Latias as your team's primary Ogre check you are going to struggle against builds that have ttar + Ogre or even Metagross + Ogre. It also doesn't help that Ice Beam got much more spamable coming off of Kyogre, and like Hack already mentioned, D Tail can prevent you from being able to switch into the other primal that Latias intended to check. Running a sub-optimal move like Grass Knot can help the ttar + Ogre matchup a bit, but this only further demonstrates the flaws that Latias and Latios have. Not only are they poor at breaking stall, but they don't preform that great against offense either, offering little defensive synergy because EKiller / Xern / Mence / Offensive Ghostceus / D Claw P Don just go right through it. It's not that difficult for the eon twins to be overloaded either, so I don't get why these two were nominated for S.

I Need to agreed, Soul Dew Latio/as aren't top tiers, I think Latio/as needs to be Downgreaded to A- or B+

 

[ChaosNemesis]

I Need to agreed, Soul Dew Latio/as aren't top tiers, I think Latio/as needs to be Downgreaded to A- or B+

They could not be S material but they're nowhere near A-.
A+ is a right ranking for them as they are clearly best defoggers and great special attacker/wall.

 

[Kyuzeth]

What's the general opinion on Reshiram's placement? I really do wonder how it has any relevance in the current metagame when it's slow, has little defensive synergy and is overall completely outclassed by Kyurem-W. Perma-Sun being dead just blows for it, it's hard to fit onto a team and anything Reshiram can do, Kyurem-W can do with much greater success. The real question, though: is it bad enough to drop to D? I myself can see Reshiram dropping to D, but I'd like to stir up some discussion, since I don't think it's good enough to fit in the C-ranks.