GSC In-Game Tier List

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Going to assume I'm in the minority here but if I was going to use a Normal-type on my team, I'd much rather use Spearow, Rattata or Sentret, not Tauros or Miltank.
Spearow and Raticate I kinda understand but Furret is just as bad as Purrloin in BW. Spearow comes with bonus exp growth and has a secondary STAB (giving it better match-up against Morty and Chuck while worse against Pryce) while Raticate has the coverage with the TMs. Tauros is actually faster, bulkier and hits harder than Fearow. It can also make use of Iron Tail / Surf to hit Rocks. Icy Wind might be tempting but 40 SpA sucks unless it hits a 4x weak target. Tauros's real problem is it can rarely pull off a sweep ;

1) Morty : Pursuit isn't doing shit to the Ghosts
2) Chuck : He hits you Super Effectively
3) Jasmine: Don't even think about it
4) Pryce : Neutral. Can take Dewgong or Piloswine but might struggle to beat both.
5) Claire : Neutral. But you can't OHKO and getting paralyzed by Dragonbreath or Thunder Wave sucks. Also, Kingdra OHKOes with Hyper Beam.
6) Elite Four: Win vs Will (except Slowbro), wins against Koga, lose to Bruno, can take some of Karen's mon
7) Lance : Can take either Dragonite, Charizard or Gyarados. Struggles to win against all of them though.

Oh yeah, is Corsola really that bad? You can grab one after Whitney (Lv20) and can teach it Surf + Rollout right away. It also comes with Recover. Then, at Lv37, it learns Mirror Coat which might be too late for Claire but cool for Will, Karen and Lance (especially when you have Recover)
 
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DHR-107

Robot from the Future
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Recover means absolutely 0 for in game runs.

I do not know why people KEEP bringing up recovery moves. Just assume everyone has ample healing resource. Having a recover move should not have any bearing at all on a run. The money you earn is more than enough to cover medical costs out in the field, and recover is a waste of an attacking turn when a potion/full restore would be much better in almost ALL instances.
 
I dunno what you folks are talking about; Furret and Raticate are virtually identical. Raticate's Hyper Fang isn't even that much of an advantage with the early arrival of Swift and Headbutt TMs.

Tauros/Miltank are way bulkier than these two, and thus more reliable, but it's true that neither happens to learn Dig (which would help against Morty and Jasmine) and also have poorer availability in a tier list discussion where we're currently at a point when we only treat the pre-Kanto portion of the game as worth investigating and considering, and where Falkner, Bugsy and Whitney actually form 3/8ths of the gym conquest (if you want to catch Tauros/Miltank with a Friend Ball, and you should, you have to wait until Morty is beaten and you can Surf, so that's nearly a half of the maingame pretty much).
 

atsync

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Having used Rattata and Sentret before (and I must have used different Pokemon to Hiddenfreezer because I didn't think they were bad at all, and I certainly didn't feel compelled to reset my game due to how much I regretted using Sentret), I would say that Sentret is worse initially because Sentret's Base 20 Speed is so dreadful (it actually ties with Geodude) and it gets outsped more frequently than Rattata early-game, but once both of them evolve they are as similar as Lucchini says, although Furret has a wider Special movepool that Raticate if it's worth anything. I think to say that GSC Furret is at the same level of suck as BW Purrloin is pushing it lol

Just wondering, but what is everyone's opinion on gift Spearow vs. early game wild Spearow? I think the boosted experience is nice but I also think that happiness could be an issue when trying to use Return. Remember that the in-game trade one is going to be at its default happiness when it's obtained (I'm assuming?) which gives Return a whopping 28 Base Power, whereas a wild caught Spearow should have a much more powerful Return due to being on your team for longer. But maybe it wouldn't matter too much since it can just use Swift in the meantime. I'd call it A tier either way though.

Oh yeah, is Corsola really that bad? You can grab one after Whitney (Lv20) and can teach it Surf + Rollout right away. It also comes with Recover. Then, at Lv37, it learns Mirror Coat which might be too late for Claire but cool for Will, Karen and Lance (especially when you have Recover)
Well, Corsola is definitely among the best Pokemon we have in E-tier right now if not the best, and I do kind of like how its part Rock typing gives it useful Normal and Poison resistances for Team Rocket which is kinda niche for a Water type (although questionable in usefulness since the best Water types will just obliterate everything with STAB Surf). I don't really feel that strongly about it rising or dropping though.

Tauros/Miltank are way bulkier than these two, and thus more reliable, but it's true that neither happens to learn Dig (which would help against Morty and Jasmine) and also have poorer availability in a tier list discussion where we're currently at a point when we only treat the pre-Kanto portion of the game as worth investigating and considering, and where Falkner, Bugsy and Whitney actually form 3/8ths of the gym conquest (if you want to catch Tauros/Miltank with a Friend Ball, and you should, you have to wait until Morty is beaten and you can Surf, so that's nearly a half of the maingame pretty much).
Yeah this is what I was getting at with my comment. I don't know, I guess I just favour availability more than most. Like, obviously Tauros and Miltank are bulkier and I'm sure that might come into play sometimes, but if Normal-types are so overpowered, why would you wait for the mid-Johto, rarish, low catch-rate ones when there are several perfectly decent alternative Normals that are easier to catch and are available too you for practically the whole game? Honestly if we really are talking about "efficiency" in a playthrough, I'd argue that Rattata and Spearow are superior to Tauros and Miltank despite the higher bulk.
 
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Sentret may be slow, but L11 Quick Attack gives its priority so that it doesn't care about its lack of speed anymore. It also evolves 5 levels earlier than Rattata. They're too similar really.

I don't think Kenya has any advantage over regular Spearow in this game. You only get it at L10 so it has to catch up, and it misses out on the first two gyms, where Spearow is likely the best Pokemon you could use. And then there's the low Return power at base level, as you mention.

I think the "overpowered" thing stops mattering so much when you meet an actually challenging foe, and this is where the contrast between adults (Tauros, Miltank) and kids (Raticate, Furret) starts being evident. Tauros and Miltank can actually take a hit or two. Anyone can spam STAB Surf or Return against Rockets obviously.

I really wouldn't mention Raticate in the same sentence as Fearow though. Spearow has a highly useful secondary STAB (one that defines its usefulness more than anything else) and its earlygame gym matchups are glorious.

And I second the notion that Corsola needs to move up a tier. STAB Surf, good defensive typing for this game, lategame Mirror Coat for tricky special matchups that some teams may struggle with.
 

atsync

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Sentret may be slow, but L11 Quick Attack gives its priority so that it doesn't care about its lack of speed anymore. It also evolves 5 levels earlier than Rattata. They're too similar really.
The Speed mostly comes into play during the initial grind. I found myself healing it more frequently just because the wild Pokemon I was leveling it up against kept getting the first hit in. Rattata doesn't really have that problem. However the difference is neglegible (we're literally talking minutes here) and I would just keep them in the same tier, wherever that may be.

I don't think Kenya has any advantage over regular Spearow in this game. You only get it at L10 so it has to catch up, and it misses out on the first two gyms, where Spearow is likely the best Pokemon you could use. And then there's the low Return power at base level, as you mention.
I agree. The boosted experience is handy in the long-term though.

I think the "overpowered" thing stops mattering so much when you meet an actually challenging foe, and this is where the contrast between adults (Tauros, Miltank) and kids (Raticate, Furret) starts being evident. Tauros and Miltank can actually take a hit or two. Anyone can spam STAB Surf or Return against Rockets obviously.
Absolutely. I'm not trying to pretend that Miltank/Tauros and Raticate/Furret are equals against every opponent. But to me it's really a "pick your poison" situation. On the one hand, you could take the easier approach and use the common, easy-to-catch early-route Pokemon that get to contribute in more battles and can also learn Dig as a bonus. Or you could wait and obtain the stronger but slightly rarer and harder-to-catch Normal-types that may be able to perform better in certain match-ups, but in exchange you don't get to use it on the earlier routes on in the first few gyms, and you don't get Dig.

I've already said which I'd go for, and I imagine others would disagree. But I think if I was trying to be as objective as possible with tiering them, I'd probably group all 4 of these within the same tier and then leave it up to the reader to decide which would be better. To me it just seems like each has its own advantages over the other and that they would cancel each other out. Maybe something like:

A

Spearow
Teddiursa (C)

B

Miltank
Rattata
Sentret
Tauros

(I'm purposely not discussing other Normal-types out for now. It's already complicated enough as it is haha)

I really wouldn't mention Raticate in the same sentence as Fearow though. Spearow has a highly useful secondary STAB (one that defines its usefulness more than anything else) and its earlygame gym matchups are glorious.
Oh I don't actually think Rattata and Spearow are equal! I'd say Spearow is the best Normal-type in GS. Teddiursa gives it competition in Crystal because of its amazing movepool but the whole fleeing thing is such a pain to deal with. Spearow IS another Normal-type that I'd use over Tauros/Miltank though.
 

Colonel M

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I think a big thing with Tauros and Miltank is that they can cheese around the Rock-types that otherwise kind of mellow them out. Same with Steel-types - though those are even less common. I'm not even saying Fearow sucks (hell I'm even debating it S - let's be honest it is pretty damn impressive) but I think what stops it is the mediocrity of the movepool it gets (like outside of Fly / Drill Peck / Return it doesn't really have much).

There may be another determining factor with Kenya but I don't even know what the fuck it has for DVs (hell for all I know - they're random).

There is something I wanted to ask whoever used Tentacruel - what convinced it to A? Like I don't necessarily doubt Tentacruel (it's a pretty handy mon and it can actually learn Sludge Bomb ffs) but it seems something I do have to ask about.

Perhaps what we might have to do is open up S tier's restrictions a little or create an SS Tier then an S Tier. I mean like many people said - the dominant types in this game are Water and Normal. Psychic to a good extent as well (Psychic's only problem is that Kadabra is like the only one who pulls ahead thanks to STAB Psychic).

RE Corsola - I don't know. Corsola might be an OP Water-type but its absolutely horrid. Like I get that stats aren't huge huge per se, but we're talking 55 Attack and 65 Special Attack. It's bulkier, but it's also slow as shit. The Mirror Coat shenanigans aren't even that spectacular anyway. The majority of Special Attackers (since this is GSC) have a physical attack as well or nasty status effects. Like the only one that doesn't is Houndoom but it could just lolRoar you out. The only match-ups I would feel comfortable with Corsola is like Charizard... I can maybe raise it to D but going beyond that is asking for too much.
 
Tentacruel's offence is too poor for it to go up to A tier IMHO. Sludge Bomb, while decent when you don't want to run out of Surf PP, is poor for coverage with only one type weak to it. There are so many others water-types who deserve the attention.

Yeah, the idea is that Corsola is too good for E, but I wouldn't try hyping it to go anywhere above D either. By the way, the opposition generally goes for the more damage move out of the ones available, so Corsola can reliably do things like OHKO Dragonite trying to use Outrage or any of the Psychics your team has trouble with (Will / Sabrina). Houndoom is immune to Mirror Coat as a dark-type by the way, and will never Roar you out anyway (Crunch should be an easy 2HKO, and the AI is probably the cleverest in this game out of all of them so far, for some odd reason).

And I really don't see Fearow going to S. If it had Drill Run in this game though...
 
Tentacruel's offence is too poor for it to go up to A tier IMHO. Sludge Bomb, while decent when you don't want to run out of Surf PP, is poor for coverage with only one type weak to it. There are so many others water-types who deserve the attention.
Tentacruel Special Attack 80 - is to bad for A tier
Feraligatr Special Attack 79 - is totally fine for S rank

What I am trying to say is: Special Attack 80 is decent enough.
It also has STAB Sludge Bomb, equivalent to a neutral Double Edge in Base Power, and has Bubblebeam for PP Shortage(really Lucchini, the picture above you shows how it doesn't run out of PP with the moveset I had for it)
 
I second the notion that Tentacruel should remain in A, if not move up to S, even. The only really bad match-ups it has are Jasmine's Magnemites, Will and Claire's Kingdra. It comes around the same level as your team (after Morty) and you have Surf by then. With that, you can clean the Lighthouse so that it evolves faster. Or, you can clear the Rocket Hideout first to grab the Sludge Bomb TM and has an easier time against Chuck's Poliwrath. Icy Wind + Surf + Sludge Bomb is sufficient for Tentacruel to last through the whole game.
 

Colonel M

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Another kind of cool thing for Tentacruel (though really limited to Kanto sadly) is that Giga Drain gives Tentacruel shitting power on Misty and Brock while still pummeling Blaine down. It even matches up decently against Blue too since Rhydon isn't a fan of Surf whatsoever, Exeggutor won't like repeated Sludge Bombs (it lacks Psychic I double checked), Arcanine gets Surf'd, and Pidgeot can get trolled by Icy Wind.

One minor quip I have with your analysis, though. In fairness to Raticate - though badge boosted Iron Tail is not being boosted by STAB whereas Tentacruel's Surf is. I'm not saying this makes Tentacruel a complete schmuck but it doesn't really look in favor of Tentacruel to me (if anything Raticate would seem marginally better since it could stomach the Earthquake).
 
Feraligatr is the king of Johto matchups pretty much; dunno what comparing him to Tentacruel achieves. Tenta is just another water-type, one that's actually weak to Psychic (otherwise you'd definitely switch it in against a Psychic because of its special bulk). If it resists all of Chuck's Poliwrath's STABs, it hardly does any good damage back (nor do most other water-types though), and I'm alarmed you're not even 2HKOing the Dragonairs with Icy Wind (which speaks volumes since Dragonairs shouldn't be that hard to defeat in the first place). The lack of availability is also a big shortcoming.
I suppose I could see A tier being justified just on grounds of it being a fast water-type, but S is pushing it.

Uh Colonel M, Piloswine doesn't have Earthquake (it does have a special ground-type move in HG/SS though).

Why is Marill in C tier? It hasn't got Huge Power since there are no abilities yet. Seems like a D/E to me.
 

Colonel M

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Dragonair is a little bulkier on the Special Defense side and, let's be honest, Icy Wind isn't bad but a paltry 55 base power. It's only really good against Dragonite because of the quadruple weakness.

I dont remember why I put Marill in C. Probably should just be D (well at least it can learn Ice Punch...).
 
It's got 61 HP/70 special defence... That's not a whole lot at all and it's no surprise a trained Jynx OHKOs these things with ease.
 

Colonel M

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I just meant in comparable power (like say Hyper Fang Raticate for shits and giggles).

I mean yeah meh SpA but still Icy Wind isnt that strong. I wouldnt be terribly surprised if Feraligatr with Icy Wind missed a 2HKO (Ice Punch should though).
 

gumnas

formerly .Maguss.
As I said on the other thread, Togetic is worth as an HM Slave. And I think it is worth training Togepi. You can teach it Headbutt right away, and since it comes from an egg, its happiness is initially very high. But the main reason I think it is worth is because of the lack of good flyers in Crystal. Fly is just too good to not have one on the team, and if it is not an HM Slave, it should be Spearow or Zubat, which really suck.
 
As I said on the other thread, Togetic is worth as an HM Slave. And I think it is worth training Togepi. You can teach it Headbutt right away, and since it comes from an egg, its happiness is initially very high. But the main reason I think it is worth is because of the lack of good flyers in Crystal. Fly is just too good to not have one on the team, and if it is not an HM Slave, it should be Spearow or Zubat, which really suck.
I completely disagree with you on this statement. The Egg normally won't hatch until around Goldenrod and by then, it is about 10 levels below your team. It also has really weak attacking stats (both before and after evolving). Spearow is also one of the best Pokemon in an in-game team in GSC as it has great match-ups in most important battles. It is obtained much earlier, allowing for much stronger Returns. Furthermore, as a Fearow, it has a great 90 Atk and 100 Spe, completely outclassing Togetic (whose offensive stats I believe is inferior to Spearow lol).

Finally, raising a Pokemon and evolve it just for the utility of a HM Slave is not worth it (unless your name is Wooper because Water-types gets Surf and has good match-ups in GSC. )
 
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Wooper learns the same HM moves Quagsire does, sans Strength.

Both Zubat and Spearow are infinitely better than Togetic. Togetic has never really had the chance to shine in-game and even later on when it got actual good special offence and a 3rd tier evo, availability was so harsh to him. The bottom tier is where Togepi should reside.
 
I also agree, Togetic is complete trash, I tried it out for 5 Min, NEVER AGAIN

I also thought about something: How awesome the Original Kanto Starter would be if we changed them, so that we can choose Charmander, Squirtle and Bulbasaur

Charmander: Fire Punch, Fly, and in general it is godly
Squirtle: If Tododile is S, what would be Squirtle?
Bulbsaur: Well...it is better than Chikorita atleast
 
I also agree, Togetic is complete trash, I tried it out for 5 Min, NEVER AGAIN

I also thought about something: How awesome the Original Kanto Starter would be if we changed them, so that we can choose Charmander, Squirtle and Bulbasaur

Charmander: Fire Punch, Fly, and in general it is godly
Squirtle: If Tododile is S, what would be Squirtle?
Bulbsaur: Well...it is better than Chikorita atleast
The performance of the starters of Gen 1 will be about the same as those of Gen 2 in GSC since they have similar movepools (Charmander will be slightly better due to Flamethrower over Flame Wheel, Bulbasaur slightly worse due to Lv20 Razor Leaf compared to Chikorita's Lv8, Squirtle will be even better due to a higher SpA (thus stronger Surf and Ice Punch) ). No point discussing them since we can't get it without cheating anyway.
 
Venusaur still lacks access to both Earthquake and Sludge Bomb in this generation. It might even be worse than Chikorita since the latter gets Razor Leaf much earlier!

Charizard never learns Thunderpunch, but doesn't need to evolve to learn Fire Punch at all, can take on Lance with Dragonbreath and actually learns Flamethrower naturally (at lv. 34 to boot). Could face some of the fighters given they lack Rock Slide (so not Machamp). Better than Typhlosion overall.

Blastoise and Feraligatr appear mostly identical.
 

Colonel M

I COULD BE BORED!
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The only real difference with Squirtle and Totodile is having access to Slash and having a better Attack stat.

Also for HM slave - Zubat doesn't learn Fly until it is a Crobat. Strange, I know.
 

gumnas

formerly .Maguss.
Well, I never said to raise Togetic, I said to raise Togepi. What I meant is just evolve it until Togetic, then keep it on the team as HM Slave, you don't need to use it again on the battles. I don't know how you guys play, but I never raise my HM Slaves as their sole purpose is to use HMs out of battles. And I personally have used both Crobat and Fearow in Pokémon Crystal, and both suck. You need Crobat to use Fly, because Golbat can't; Crobat can't learn Sludge Bomb, so an unstabed Return and Fly are its strongest moves, and use Fly as a main attack move in-game is a waste of time. Fearow is better, and I generally use him as flyer, but only because there is nothing better. You rely on Peck as a flying move until you can learn Fly; Return is not that strong until late game; and it generally don't learn Drill Peck until close to the Elite Four. Even with its best moves, it still not that good.
 
Well, I never said to raise Togetic, I said to raise Togepi. What I meant is just evolve it until Togetic, then keep it on the team as HM Slave, you don't need to use it again on the battles. I don't know how you guys play, but I never raise my HM Slaves as their sole purpose is to use HMs out of battles. And I personally have used both Crobat and Fearow in Pokémon Crystal, and both suck. You need Crobat to use Fly, because Golbat can't; Crobat can't learn Sludge Bomb, so an unstabed Return and Fly are its strongest moves, and use Fly as a main attack move in-game is a waste of time. Fearow is better, and I generally use him as flyer, but only because there is nothing better. You rely on Peck as a flying move until you can learn Fly; Return is not that strong until late game; and it generally don't learn Drill Peck until close to the Elite Four. Even with its best moves, it still not that good.
I am going to raise several points here:

1) I don't even know why you bother raising Togepi to Togetic just for being a HM slave since the only HMs it can learn are Fly and Flash; the former has much better users and the latter is not required to complete the game. And we don't rank things just because they can learn HMs; they should be able to provide some utilities in battle too (see Quagsire and Gyarados). Even Corsola who performs a million times better than Togetic in battle (due to great match-ups and good typing which resists Normal and Poison - which are spammed often in this game) and can learn more HMs reside in E rank so I don't see how one can make a case for Togetic since Togetic is literally garbage and should be ranked alongside things like Ledian and Wobbuffet. Colonel M, why is Togetic ranked so high again? 40 Atk and Spe is plain awful, even for in-game. 80 SpA seems decent until you realise it only gets one Special move before Kanto (Fire Blast) which you need to grind 5500 Coins for in the Game Corner, which is plain time-wasting . Add the fact that a Water-type (Corsola) gets ranked lower than this thing is difficult to grasp since it has STAB Surf and Rollout to destroy stuff, which Togetic doesn't.

2) How hard is it to get a Crobat? Catch a wild low level Golbat with Friend Ball, teach it Return, make a visit to the Haircut brothers and you can have one around your first visit to the Lighthouse. And because of the Friend Ball, Return hits very hard and Crobat (due to it's early availability) will stomp anything that is not a Steel-type or Rock-type, both of which are food for your starter or Water-type (don't tell me you don't use one lol).

3) Why should you spam Peck when you can teach Spearow Swift (a TM in Union Cave)? A neutral Swift hits just as hard as a Super Effective Peck and it will serve you well until you get Fly.
 
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