Sceptile has alot of weaknesses and an ice shard does more than half to it.A incredibly offensive defensive with Lrod not allowing it being parahaxed or dropping speed is a good reason why it should stay in B+.Even though beat by the pokemon above it can still fight back,with dragon pulse,Hidden power fire etc.Allthough the most common reason is Lrod.
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ORAS UU Viability Ranking Thread M2
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Recommending Beedrill be moved A -> A-/B+.
Beedrill is an interesting mon because so many things about it scream that it should be good. A smartly designed mega form in ORAS gave it ludicrously needed viability, allowing the Gen 1 trashmon to become a lightning fast and hard hitting harasser.
However, viability rankings are for a snapshot of a metagame, not what it may be in the future or has been in the past. And in this current metagame, I think that Mega Beedrill is not an A rank pokemon.
I base this argument a few tenants. First is the topic of the last few pages - opportunity cost. Simply put, I think there are better megas, Aero being the main one of these, and using Beedrill means you can't use him. This is an argument that's been done to death so no more elaboration is really necessary.
Second, a few of Beedrill's weaknesses are amplified by the current metagame. The following are factors prominent in ORAS UU today that hurt Beedrill: weakness to SR, huge amount of scald users, reliance on protect and incredibly low physical defense.
The weakness to SR is a big one, because in UU there are not a ton of reliable defog users. While mons like Empoleon do exist, they are fully prepared for in the current climate, fighting spam being what it is. Other options, like Crobat, are also weak to rocks themselves, which means the team will be increasingly weak to rocks.
Second, scald spam is everywhere. Simply put, you are not going to find a team these days without a scald user. Switching in or tanking a hit with Beedrill is madness when a burn effectively ends his entire game.
The reliance on protect is no good, because UU has many setup sweepers. The Beedrill user can predict a setup move and attack, but this is a bad situation to be in from the get-go.
Finally, having heinous physical defense in a tier where all of the best priority users use physical priority is horrible. Simply put, that massive speed becomes worthless in the face of any sort of priority, most of which can OHKO Beedrill, or certainly will after rocks.
Finally, the last thing I look at is his matchup against other top tier mons. Obviously Aero beats him all the time, Suicune walls him and wrecks with scald, even Mence is commonly scarf or DD and cannot be OHKOd. Not a favorable matchup against the S tier mons, and he fares little better against many common sets of the A+ and A rank mons.
Still, Beedrill can be a difficult mon to prepare for and a great momentum gainer and cleaner, but simply put I think that he is not one of the metagame defining choices a team can have.
I would love to see Porygon-Z move from B+ to A-.
Reason: Porygon-Z can sweep many teams because the UU tier lacks Ghost types; Porygon-Z's main weakness. The only viable ghost type in this tier in Chandelure. Steel types aren't usually a problem in UU (Lucario and Aggron come to mind though) so 2x Tri Attack is very terrifying. Plus, Porygon-Z can learn the following moves: Tri Attack, Dark Pulse, Shadow Ball, Thunder Bolt, Thunder, Ice Beam, Nasty Plot, Agility, and Recover. Polygon-Z can run so many different sets!! So the real question is, why ISN'T he in A-?
Reason: Porygon-Z can sweep many teams because the UU tier lacks Ghost types; Porygon-Z's main weakness. The only viable ghost type in this tier in Chandelure. Steel types aren't usually a problem in UU (Lucario and Aggron come to mind though) so 2x Tri Attack is very terrifying. Plus, Porygon-Z can learn the following moves: Tri Attack, Dark Pulse, Shadow Ball, Thunder Bolt, Thunder, Ice Beam, Nasty Plot, Agility, and Recover. Polygon-Z can run so many different sets!! So the real question is, why ISN'T he in A-?
Fighting spam. It's also very hard to find good setup opportunities as well.
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PZ and P2 accomplish completely different roles, they can't accurately be compared like that.
I agree with moving Porygon-Z to A-, While it only has 90 base speed, it more than compensates for that. Adaptability helps out so much as it makes a Tri Attack powerful wallbreaking move, the only things keeping Tri Attack from being spammed effieciently is Chandelure, which isn't a problem unless it is Scarfed, since it has access to dark pulse which gives almost perfect neutral coverage. It can run many sets, all of which are capable of ripping holes in teams. In fact, even some of the bulkiest pokes can be maimed by the Double Dance set.
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Adaptability Porygon-Z Tri Attack vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 359-424 (50.2 - 59.3%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Adaptability Porygon-Z Tri Attack vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 413-489 (102.2 - 121%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Adaptability Porygon-Z Tri Attack vs. 252 HP / 24+ SpD Florges: 286-338 (79.4 - 93.8%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Adaptability Porygon-Z Tri Attack vs. 252 HP / 240 SpD Aggron: 127-149 (36.9 - 43.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Adaptability Porygon-Z Tri Attack vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Cresselia: 369-437 (83.1 - 98.4%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
There are only a few that can take more than 2 hits from a +2 Tri Attack and don't fear the coverage moves but even they are kept at bay due to how much damage they take (most of which very likely don't have reliable recovery) which allows other sweepers to take advantage of their checks being weakened.
Can any of the fighting types reliably switch in? Not really.
I disagree with moving Porygon-Z up to as high as A- tbh. You can throw all those calcs at me as you want, but the fact of the matter is that sheer power alone does not make a Pokemon amazing. Now yes, Porygon-Z is pretty great and solid, but I don't think it belongs in the A Ranks if you ask me. It is brutal with Agility and Nasty Plot, but due to its meh defensive typing with minimal resistances and rather bad bulk, it has enormous trouble actually setting up. It can set up Nasty Plot to wreck stall teams, and Agility to sweep offense, but you just can't set up both, let alone safely set up one. It can be a brutal threat being able to sweep like a champion with one of either Nasty Plot or Agility allowing it to sweep or wallbreak thanks to Tri Attack (Adaptability) making it quite strong plus the coverage. Specs is also kind of brutal too. But because of that bad bulk and meh typing, I feel it needs a bit too much support to actually function to its fullest, so I can't see it in A- Rank at all. B+ seems fine for it. Its 90 Speed is also a big issue as it's outspeed by a lot of common mons in the tier and thus does rather bad against offense.
It's a good mon definitely and not much can truly switch in...but it's not sufficient enough imo for A Rank, and B+ is where it belongs imo. That's not really a bad rank at all and is pretty fitting for its capabilities.
It's a good mon definitely and not much can truly switch in...but it's not sufficient enough imo for A Rank, and B+ is where it belongs imo. That's not really a bad rank at all and is pretty fitting for its capabilities.
Can any dark types switch into specs Chandelure? No. Porgon-z's lack luster speed makes it easily revenged and its poor bulk doesn't allow it to get many set up opportunities. It does wallbreak like a monster, but thats about it.
I meeaaaan while i agree that PZ isnt great, M-Hound and Hydreigon are both dark types that can switch in to chand
I've used Specs Z in the past and it was a beast! If I got that thing in something was getting 2HKOed. But it was easily revenge killable. And allowing something like Lucario to set up SD after a kill to sweep my team was an annoyance. IDK I might give it another go and see how it fairs in this metagame. It MIGHT just be worthy of A- Rank in this UU metagame.
Towards it's bulk, it certainly is not bulky but it is by no means "frail" either. But setting up with it is very tough. The double dance set can afford to add a little more bulk. but hey it does require alot of testing to see which set truly shines.
Btw why is Seismitoad ranked in A- Rank? Anything new it got that I missed?
Towards it's bulk, it certainly is not bulky but it is by no means "frail" either. But setting up with it is very tough. The double dance set can afford to add a little more bulk. but hey it does require alot of testing to see which set truly shines.
Btw why is Seismitoad ranked in A- Rank? Anything new it got that I missed?
But there in itself is part of the problem: It's easily revenged, and it can give setup opportunities if it's locked into the wrong move. I'm not doubting its power, but surely there are other powerful wallbreakers and cleaners that can do what it does without its flaws.
As for Seismitoad, its Water Absorb ability, Knock Off, and Stealth Rock help it compete with Swampert (please correct if I'm missing anything else).
252+ SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Houndoom: 174-206 (59.7 - 70.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Hydreigon: 174-205 (53.5 - 63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
not exactly switch ins fren. (ya some hydriegon have roost but still do you see that damage)
I can see that. Bulky waters *Cough* Suicune is on every team and almost no reason not to have Suicune on your team. I wonder if this will hurt Swampert's viability. It hits harder and bulkier. Brings up another topic. I've been messing around with Mixed Tank Mega Swampert and it is much more fun to see it survive hits you never thought of. Bulk is just slightly lower than Suicune but the ability to hit hard without any boost is what I love the most.
Hyd can just Revenge kill and Hound has Fire blast premega so if youre not mega'd yet ur good
Moving
Bronzong B -> B+
Levitate is a huge advantage over other Steels as well as having the bulk to top it off. Bronzong is a hard counter to stuff like Kyurem, Shaymin, Nidoqueen (with no fire move) as well as a very nice counter to non-Fire Blast Mence and Mega Aero. Combined with support options in Toxic and SR (Rain Dance as well), it deserves B+. IB93 showing me the way :]
Bronzong B -> B+
Levitate is a huge advantage over other Steels as well as having the bulk to top it off. Bronzong is a hard counter to stuff like Kyurem, Shaymin, Nidoqueen (with no fire move) as well as a very nice counter to non-Fire Blast Mence and Mega Aero. Combined with support options in Toxic and SR (Rain Dance as well), it deserves B+. IB93 showing me the way :]
Well the only reason they would actually have Fire Blast is Bronzong anyway, of which I would say only Nidoking would run since Nidoqueen probably would be better off having Toxic Spikes or Stealth Rock on the last slot.
Edit: Nominating Shuckle from B ---> B- and Galvantula from B- ----> C frankly, I don't see Sticky Web being that great in this meta, and while Shuckle should probably be a rank above Galvantula, I don't think Shuckle warrants B. Galvantula also probably fits into C rank's description more accurately, as against other leads, Galvantula can't usually get Sticky Web up. Galvantula and Shuckle both have very limited longevity, both being suicide leads, so Sticky Web is usually on the field once per game. With the ease of hazard removal, I wouldn't say they're too effective.
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You give up such crucial coverage for Flamethrower/Fire Blast that if you use Fire coverage the Nidos straight-up lose to some very important Pokemon, and stuff like Aerodactyl which you should normally keep from switching in freely now has carte blanche to come in and fuck your day up.
I totally agree with this just because galvantula having so little defense and shuckle having so little speed to effectively set up sticky web,and not getting a lot of turns on the field isnt efficient enough for this meta.Allthough they help alot of slow scarfs like chandelure they are easily evaded by any flying type,especially aerodactyl who counters them both.Fast and hard hitting is whats going on for Galvantula,and even not that hard hitting.Aerodactyl being a great option for all of them it shines as being used in most of the teams,it makes less use of the bug types and sticky webs.Scarfd Salamence,Crobat and even Hydreigon wouldnt mind the webs.Allthough he is defeated by Bug types easily,He fights back.He can carry fire blast and scarf Draco Meteor,outspeeding Galvantula and OHKOing him,with the terrible defense that galvantula has.Shuckle gets more resistance but cant fight back.I mean,what can a base 10 attack and Spa attack shuckle do to a hydreigon.It can have Power Trick but then with 10 base def and Spd it cant offer much resistance.The defogs and rapid spins are too common for rocks and webs so you can defeat the hazarder and defog/rapid spin away to get the hazards outta here.
I totally agree,its a hard counter and can stall quite a bit with toxic,hazard setter and is a defensive/Spdefensive pokemon indeed.It makes up for his bad speed with trick room and Gyro ball,hitting hard to any non resistant pokemon.
Were these explanations good?
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In fact I said it is a very uncommon move, but the only fact that they both get it means that Bronzong doesn't 100% counter them
I ran into a few Fire Blast Nidoking, and they still have a free slot (other than dual STABs+ FB) to pick one between Ice Beam and Thunderbolt to take down Aero
Shaymin and Kyurem can't do shit to Bronzong outside of a weak and useless Hidden Power, meaning that they're fully countered by our favourite derp bell
I was simply pointing out the fact that Nidos aren't as helpess as those two vs Zong
Offensive Galv is actually pretty damn good. Its STAB combination is incredibly hard to switch into for any team lacking some dedicated special wall which is just Volt Switched on regardless. With proper prediction, Bug Buzz + Thunder mutilates a large portion of the tier and a ton of things really appreciate Sticky Web support. Notable examples that I've messed with would include letting Lucario outspeed Krookodile, having Alakazam outspeed scarfers, etc. In my opinion, the way that Galvantula is played just needs to evolve. Suiciding for webs is just dumb. It's pointless. However, if you play it right then you have a lethal STAB combination and access to a move that facilitates sweeps that wouldn't have happened otherwise. It's certainly not the best 'mon but it still belongs in B- rank to me.
If you want to use offensive glavantula, you run heliolisk.
Heliolisk has access to Sticky Web and STAB Bug Buzz?
I assumed when saying offensive Galvantula, that meant with out webs. It has a niche with webs, but if you want to use a pure offensive one, heliolisk outclasses.
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