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Ladder Balanced Hackmons
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First off, Blissey, and many of the other imposters that will follow if that's banned.
Second off, imposter is not the culprit here. How can you know if you'll be trapped beforehand?
Third, magnet pull has use outside of this endless battle shenanigans, like magpull pdon to rid of specific steels for -ates to have a better time, etc.
Second off, imposter is not the culprit here. How can you know if you'll be trapped beforehand?
Third, magnet pull has use outside of this endless battle shenanigans, like magpull pdon to rid of specific steels for -ates to have a better time, etc.
take a deper look at hole point of magnet pull.
ppl use it to trap the impostered duplicate steel pokes.and then set up a sweeeper.
so what would happen if imposter (sorry for saying chansey above) gets banned? no one will use duplicate pokes,so no reason to use magnet pull.
apateonas : That's really the wrong way to go about banning something.
Piccolo Daimao : There's other ways to infinite PP stall without duplicate moves. For example...
Arceus-Flying @ Leppa Berry
Ability: Sticky Hold
EVs: 252 HP / 126 Def / 126 SpD / 4 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Heal Order
- Cosmic Power
- Spite
- Recycle
Does everything the Deo-S set does, except it has bulk, it has no need for lefties since it has a healing move, and it still drains PP quickly with Spite while never running out itself. You lose out on Pressure, sure, but you win on having actual recovery and enough bulk to not have to wait out ALL of your opponent's offensive PP first, especially if you get Cosmic Power going. The drawback is you're vulnerable to Mold Breaker Knock Off/Trick, but that's not common.
Piccolo Daimao : There's other ways to infinite PP stall without duplicate moves. For example...
Arceus-Flying @ Leppa Berry
Ability: Sticky Hold
EVs: 252 HP / 126 Def / 126 SpD / 4 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Heal Order
- Cosmic Power
- Spite
- Recycle
Does everything the Deo-S set does, except it has bulk, it has no need for lefties since it has a healing move, and it still drains PP quickly with Spite while never running out itself. You lose out on Pressure, sure, but you win on having actual recovery and enough bulk to not have to wait out ALL of your opponent's offensive PP first, especially if you get Cosmic Power going. The drawback is you're vulnerable to Mold Breaker Knock Off/Trick, but that's not common.
ppl would appriciate more if u could tell us ur opinion about the isue.
Once again this battle between "What is OP" in the BH room. Okay. Let's actually look at the stats, how far can you get to the top of the ladder without an imposter? Nearly impossible unless your godly at CH/PH as well as BH. Imposter is overrated. Imposter with choice scarf...now that is seems to be the easiest trump cards against high stat pokemon. There is no pivot in Bh besides a sturdy shedninja and other situational abilities. (unaware, iron barbs...etc) With the inital removal of wondergaurd we have very little options to defend against the lets say a simple white herb shellsmash pass to a mold breaker gengar with judgement/sacred sword
Do we really have to do the imposter argument that's been done to death in here again?
Imposter is an evil you have to deal with if you don't want strong setup & contratory spam everywhere, nobody would enjoy simple dancers, contratory, belly mold breakers & magic bounce shell smashers everywhere
You can bring in the "muh prankster and unaware" argument, but face it, topsy loses to bounce, hearth swap loses to simple, unaware loses to mold breaker, prankster and unaware already have hard times with contratory as contratory uses extremely high power moves to begin with.
Generally when it comes to this infinite battle I'd support the motion of banning dublicate moves or making an infinite battle check that would end the battle if both players only get "but there wasnt enough PP for the move" message xx amount (and if both players have only switched for xx amount without any damage done, cause you know, double imposter endless battle)
Imposter is an evil you have to deal with if you don't want strong setup & contratory spam everywhere, nobody would enjoy simple dancers, contratory, belly mold breakers & magic bounce shell smashers everywhere
You can bring in the "muh prankster and unaware" argument, but face it, topsy loses to bounce, hearth swap loses to simple, unaware loses to mold breaker, prankster and unaware already have hard times with contratory as contratory uses extremely high power moves to begin with.
Generally when it comes to this infinite battle I'd support the motion of banning dublicate moves or making an infinite battle check that would end the battle if both players only get "but there wasnt enough PP for the move" message xx amount (and if both players have only switched for xx amount without any damage done, cause you know, double imposter endless battle)
But chansey isn't the issue here...
lolzzz read carefully before post a comment.
Lcass4919
The Xatu Warrior
on top of bounce, topsy also loses to substitute. so prank tail glow for example, has NO counters. where imposter can at least catch it before it makes a sub.
the arguments of keeping imposter has been restated so much that there's really no point in restating. however i will throw it back out that without imposter, pokemon have 0 restriction on move sets. tail glow sweepers can easily run perfected coverage, forcing you to use mediocre counters just to stop them. say for example...prank arceus with tail glow, aura sphere/substitute, nature power, and earth power/dark pulse. nothing in this meta can be considered a consistent counter to this, especially when the only moves that even outspeed nature power are fake out and espeed, which is simple as hell to stop, and can still easily break past 99% of teams. imposters presence is enough to force people to think before creating such a mindless threat, forcing them to find a counter, and thus, can restrict their teambuilding options greatly in a way that isn't negative for this meta and actually promotes you to do more then just spam contrary, or spam simple. have you ever questioned why simple spam/contrary spam is stuck in the low ladder? its because mindless spamming of moves should be punished. and although imposter could be considered the same, its up to your OPPONENT to wisen up about their synergy so something like that doesn't happen. you can argue all you want about unaware, but unawares purpose is to stop ALL setup sweepers, and that involves you having to run 2 UNAWARE users otherwise your physical mm2x with simple swords dance, extreme speed, drain punch and knock off has a field day on their specially defensive unaware wall
what does imposters ban accomplish for this metagame that is GOOD? and i'm not asking what the ban would stop. i'm asking how it would be healthy for the meta game. because all it does is promotes overkill power and coverage and no restriction sweepers. which is obviously bad. that's really a no brainer. theres a reason the ability clause is a thing, and thats because "repeating the same process on something tends to give results" 2 setup spammers can easily take on this entire meta togeather if its not just for imposter blocking their fullest potential. it would lead us to eventually banning setup moves altogeather. since having 6 setup mons would become the norm, and would completely erase EVERY team archeotype. prankster? ones pranktaunt/sub. unaware? ones mold breaker, fakespeed? yeah, have fun breaking that steel type. and then what? i already ran through all three potential stops to setup spam. and there are still 3 more waiting for you. heck, you can even combine some of these sets. dislike unaware/pranktopsy? prank rayquaza can easily taunt both then tail glow oblivion to victory. so wheres the other 3 counters to setup spam? dont forget you still need a check to fakespeed...and smashing fakespeedburst.
the arguments of keeping imposter has been restated so much that there's really no point in restating. however i will throw it back out that without imposter, pokemon have 0 restriction on move sets. tail glow sweepers can easily run perfected coverage, forcing you to use mediocre counters just to stop them. say for example...prank arceus with tail glow, aura sphere/substitute, nature power, and earth power/dark pulse. nothing in this meta can be considered a consistent counter to this, especially when the only moves that even outspeed nature power are fake out and espeed, which is simple as hell to stop, and can still easily break past 99% of teams. imposters presence is enough to force people to think before creating such a mindless threat, forcing them to find a counter, and thus, can restrict their teambuilding options greatly in a way that isn't negative for this meta and actually promotes you to do more then just spam contrary, or spam simple. have you ever questioned why simple spam/contrary spam is stuck in the low ladder? its because mindless spamming of moves should be punished. and although imposter could be considered the same, its up to your OPPONENT to wisen up about their synergy so something like that doesn't happen. you can argue all you want about unaware, but unawares purpose is to stop ALL setup sweepers, and that involves you having to run 2 UNAWARE users otherwise your physical mm2x with simple swords dance, extreme speed, drain punch and knock off has a field day on their specially defensive unaware wall
what does imposters ban accomplish for this metagame that is GOOD? and i'm not asking what the ban would stop. i'm asking how it would be healthy for the meta game. because all it does is promotes overkill power and coverage and no restriction sweepers. which is obviously bad. that's really a no brainer. theres a reason the ability clause is a thing, and thats because "repeating the same process on something tends to give results" 2 setup spammers can easily take on this entire meta togeather if its not just for imposter blocking their fullest potential. it would lead us to eventually banning setup moves altogeather. since having 6 setup mons would become the norm, and would completely erase EVERY team archeotype. prankster? ones pranktaunt/sub. unaware? ones mold breaker, fakespeed? yeah, have fun breaking that steel type. and then what? i already ran through all three potential stops to setup spam. and there are still 3 more waiting for you. heck, you can even combine some of these sets. dislike unaware/pranktopsy? prank rayquaza can easily taunt both then tail glow oblivion to victory. so wheres the other 3 counters to setup spam? dont forget you still need a check to fakespeed...and smashing fakespeedburst.
apateonas It's like saying "Desolate Lands Groudon-P is OP, but nobody would have a reason to use it if we banned Water moves. So, let's ban Water moves"*. The problem is trapping in an infinite stall scenario, not Chansey. Period.
And my opinion? Simple: duplicate moves are problematic as they can cause infinite stalling scenarios and have little use outside of them that can replicated with better sets anyway.
As for Imposter, while I don't care for it, I do recognize that it holds a lot of things together in the tier and there'd be huge collateral damage if it were removed. We'd probably have to ban a lot of things. And this is coming from the guy who usually argues "worries about banning other things is not a reason to argue against a ban".
Now maybe if Gen VII blessed us with numerous amazing defensive Pokemon and abilities, like how Gen VI was a huge blessing to offense in BH, then maybe that'd change. But that's merely a hypothetical future.
*Desolate Land Groudon is used merely as an example and in no way OP to my knowledge.
And my opinion? Simple: duplicate moves are problematic as they can cause infinite stalling scenarios and have little use outside of them that can replicated with better sets anyway.
As for Imposter, while I don't care for it, I do recognize that it holds a lot of things together in the tier and there'd be huge collateral damage if it were removed. We'd probably have to ban a lot of things. And this is coming from the guy who usually argues "worries about banning other things is not a reason to argue against a ban".
Now maybe if Gen VII blessed us with numerous amazing defensive Pokemon and abilities, like how Gen VI was a huge blessing to offense in BH, then maybe that'd change. But that's merely a hypothetical future.
*Desolate Land Groudon is used merely as an example and in no way OP to my knowledge.
well ur example is fail.
can't u see that *duplicate steel pokes* came up to trap imposter and not just for infinite battle?
everyone using a dublicate steel is also using a magnet pull with Acupressure.that means he tend to sweep and not to make an infinite battle.
He said at the bottom of his post that he knew that desolate sun Groudon wasn't op, it was just a convenient example for him to use.
I am really itching to get back into this chansey argument all over again, but it's just the same old nonsense of me making my points only to get refuted by a single line by the chansey detractors of "omg my huge health, my huge defense", while none of my questions/counterpoints are answered, just like the countless times I've gone over it in the OM room, with the same people over and over again. So I'm just going to pass on this imposter argument completely and address the main point of infinite battles. I mean, it makes more sense just to ban magnet pull than imposter. It's not like you can pull an infinite battle strategy only against imposter as it could theoretically trap other steel types as well. It'd be also more consistent with how BH has banned the other trapping abilities. And this is only if people think action is required at all.
did he?seriously?i never saw that.thank u TheBurgerKing99.
also stay on topic imo.if u don't have something to say then just don't post.
E4 Flint,get at my point.magnet pull right now is being used to trap impotser not to have an infinite battle.
also i think that baning magnet pull would be better than baning imposter.
To be honest we shouldn't be banning anything. The chatter ban was the last ban i think will happen in a while. If we were to ban ANYTHING (not that we will) it would be double moves because it can be used to infinite stall, and it doesnt really contribute to the metagame either.
Pikachuun
the entire waruda machine
Here's my input:
Magnet Pull + Double Move is a gimmick. The gimmick does not make the game uncompetitive like Swagger did. If you see the opponent has duplicate moves that are conveniently walled by something on their team and is a steel type, it is your duty to know that something is up and not fall for the stupid gimmick. Besides, there's always Prankster Heart Swap (goes through subs and is typically run on steel types), which certainly isn't a gimmick, for those of you who are paranoid over the rare occurence that this will happen. The only way to OHKO Registeel is to run Mach Punch MMX, and if you're running Mach Punch MMX you've run out of ideas. The only way to OHKO Aegislash is to get a crit with an MMX's Shadow Sneak, or run M-Banette with Shadow Sneak, and as stated earlier, running any of those on a mon that you're aiming to pass +6 speed to anyways is dumb.
Imposter isn't broken, as there are a lot of methods and Pokemon to deal with it semi-reliably. Imposter basically just means you can't mindlessly spam setup/perfect coverage without having something to check it, and really, if you can't deal with either of those things already at least somewhat reliably, your team isn't that good.
For reference, I don't typically run Imposter myself unless it's on Pikachu.
Magnet Pull + Double Move is a gimmick. The gimmick does not make the game uncompetitive like Swagger did. If you see the opponent has duplicate moves that are conveniently walled by something on their team and is a steel type, it is your duty to know that something is up and not fall for the stupid gimmick. Besides, there's always Prankster Heart Swap (goes through subs and is typically run on steel types), which certainly isn't a gimmick, for those of you who are paranoid over the rare occurence that this will happen. The only way to OHKO Registeel is to run Mach Punch MMX, and if you're running Mach Punch MMX you've run out of ideas. The only way to OHKO Aegislash is to get a crit with an MMX's Shadow Sneak, or run M-Banette with Shadow Sneak, and as stated earlier, running any of those on a mon that you're aiming to pass +6 speed to anyways is dumb.
Imposter isn't broken, as there are a lot of methods and Pokemon to deal with it semi-reliably. Imposter basically just means you can't mindlessly spam setup/perfect coverage without having something to check it, and really, if you can't deal with either of those things already at least somewhat reliably, your team isn't that good.
For reference, I don't typically run Imposter myself unless it's on Pikachu.
Can't make a long post right now, but I'd just like to say that as this is exactly what those Magnet Pull teams do to prevent Prankster Heart Swap, it can't really be passed off as "dumb" and Prankster Heart Swap cannot be considered a counter to such teams.
+6 attack priority moves shouldn't be discounted.
Pikachuun
the entire waruda machine
I'm definitely not discounting it if they can OHKO, but that wasn't the point I'm trying to get across.
The point is a good player, unless your opponent double switches, can easily see it coming just by looking at the moveset of the Pokemon, and deal with it before it happens. Magnet Pull + Double move is a gimmick, and all it requires is playing around it when you think it could occur. If the setup already happened, prankster heart swap is a pretty good check to it, at least
Pikachuun The problem with your whole idea of "just switching out" is if the double move user is also the Magnet Puller. In which case, infinite stall occurs if an Imposter pops into it unless someone has a Shed Shell. And nobody runs Shed Shell Chansey AFAIK.
Plus you still don't need double moves to run a Magnet Trap-and-Set-up strategy effectively anyway. If the Imposter can't hurt you, you have 20 turns + Struggle turns to set-up. And if you need more than 20 turns to set up, then, I'll be blunt, you're setting up wrong.
Plus you still don't need double moves to run a Magnet Trap-and-Set-up strategy effectively anyway. If the Imposter can't hurt you, you have 20 turns + Struggle turns to set-up. And if you need more than 20 turns to set up, then, I'll be blunt, you're setting up wrong.
Pikachuun
the entire waruda machine
You have some good points. I still stand by it being a gimmick though.
Its def a gimmick, but its only purpose is making yourself immune to struggle, therefore enabling endless battle strats. IMO we should ban Double moves (have showdown reject a pokemon with double similar to illegal sets in other metas.) Magnet Pull has plenty of other uses besides endless battle strats and an Imposter ban would be more unhealthy for the meta then keeping it. The top BH players have long agreed upon this. Trolling and stupid arguments will not change anything.
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And yet on Pokemon Showdown, we are not allowed to do so.Smogon's intro to Balanced Hackmons said:
Somebody really needs to fix that. :c
Pikachuun
the entire waruda machine
That's an old thing, it used to be like that until mechanics happened.