np: UU Stage 2.1 - You Are Invited

[Darvin]

The worse part about M-Pidgeot is that it restricts teambuilding SO much, if you dont have one check or a revenge killer that can reliably kill it (only rotom-h and rotom-mow, or you may as well use jolteon) you may just lose to it at team preview sadly. I shouldnt be punished for not having a M-Aerodactyl just to deal with M-pidgeot, that isnt how it should work...

Pretty much every viable scarfer in the tier can OHKO Mega Pidgeot after rocks. Many have multiple move choices to do it:

Many ways to beat Mega Pidgeot

252 SpA Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Pidgeot: 249-294 (81.1 - 95.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Mienshao Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Pidgeot: 256-302 (83.3 - 98.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Mienshao High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Pidgeot: 249-294 (81.1 - 95.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Pidgeot: 324-382 (105.5 - 124.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Sheer Force Darmanitan Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Pidgeot: 272-322 (88.5 - 104.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Salamence Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Pidgeot: 267-315 (86.9 - 102.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Heracross Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Pidgeot: 256-302 (83.3 - 98.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Krookodile Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Pidgeot: 244-288 (79.4 - 93.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Chandelure Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Pidgeot: 235-277 (76.5 - 90.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Moltres Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Pidgeot: 231-273 (75.2 - 88.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Moltres Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Pidgeot: 231-273 (75.2 - 88.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Maybe if the Agility set were more of a thing then Scarfers wouldn't be such a strong answer, but as it stands there are many options to revenge-kill Pidgeot. The Work Up set does give a middle finger to special walls, but even then Umbreon kills it with Foul Play and the set's lack of coverage means a Steel-type will stop it in its tracks. Mega Pidgeot is an awesome win condition that cleans up nicely once its checks are gone.


As for Feraligatr, I haven't found him to be a big issue yet. He's just got mediocre bulk and speed before setting up, and his lack of recovery means there are lots of ways to stop him. Swords Dance sets break walls, but get revenge-killed by anything moderately fast. Agility sets are great late-game cleaners, but a healthy wall stops them. Dragon Dance sets, I've found to be the worst of both worlds as a lot of stuff still outspeeds at +1 and a lot of stuff still avoids OHKO at +1. It's still a very dangerous pokemon, but most of the time my Scarf Hydreigon just comes out and stops its would-be sweep after it gets one kill.


Both of these are very powerful pokemon, but hardly unstoppable.

 

[Christo]

Pretty much every viable scarfer in the tier can OHKO Mega Pidgeot after rocks. Many have multiple move choices to do it:

Many ways to beat Mega Pidgeot

252 SpA Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Pidgeot: 249-294 (81.1 - 95.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Mienshao Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Pidgeot: 256-302 (83.3 - 98.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Mienshao High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Pidgeot: 249-294 (81.1 - 95.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Pidgeot: 324-382 (105.5 - 124.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Sheer Force Darmanitan Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Pidgeot: 272-322 (88.5 - 104.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Salamence Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Pidgeot: 267-315 (86.9 - 102.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Heracross Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Pidgeot: 256-302 (83.3 - 98.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Krookodile Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Pidgeot: 244-288 (79.4 - 93.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Chandelure Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Pidgeot: 235-277 (76.5 - 90.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Moltres Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Pidgeot: 231-273 (75.2 - 88.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Moltres Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Pidgeot: 231-273 (75.2 - 88.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Maybe if the Agility set were more of a thing then Scarfers wouldn't be such a strong answer, but as it stands there are many options to revenge-kill Pidgeot. The Work Up set does give a middle finger to special walls, but even then Umbreon kills it with Foul Play and the set's lack of coverage means a Steel-type will stop it in its tracks. Mega Pidgeot is an awesome win condition that cleans up nicely once its checks are gone.


As for Feraligatr, I haven't found him to be a big issue yet. He's just got mediocre bulk and speed before setting up, and his lack of recovery means there are lots of ways to stop him. Swords Dance sets break walls, but get revenge-killed by anything moderately fast. Agility sets are great late-game cleaners, but a healthy wall stops them. Dragon Dance sets, I've found to be the worst of both worlds as a lot of stuff still outspeeds at +1 and a lot of stuff still avoids OHKO at +1. It's still a very dangerous pokemon, but most of the time my Scarf Hydreigon just comes out and stops its would-be sweep after it gets one kill.


Both of these are very powerful pokemon, but hardly unstoppable.

lol none of your pidgeot checks can switch into a hurricane...

 

[YABO]

The thing about these is that not a single one can reliably come in on rocks to force out Pidgeot. When Jirachi was in the tier, it was able to come in on everything except Heat Wave and threaten out Pidge. Hydreigon, Shao, Darm, Hera, Chand, and even Mence die or take heavy heavy damage. Aside from that, only a few dedicated mons reliably beat Pidge when switching in on it. The most common are Rotom-H and Empoleon. Other mons like Florges, Porygon, or w/e else can be skilled past with Hurricane confusion.

 

[Christo]

To add to that, if a team doesn't include a Rotom H, Amph, or Emp, Pidgeot has no realiable switch in after rocks. Should be S tier honestly

 

[Darvin]

lol none of your pidgeot checks can switch into a hurricane...

I was addressing his point about there being very few viable revenge-killers, which is patently untrue. Specifically that was a listing choice scarf users that force Mega Pidgeot out (and I now realize I forgot about Kyurem). It's not hard to fit at least one of these onto your team. If you want checks, that's a different list:

stuff that checks Mega Pidgeot

(stuff that doesn't need to outspeed)
252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Ampharos: 101-119 (31.4 - 37%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Heat Wave vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Empoleon: 76-90 (20.4 - 24.2%) -- possible 5HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rhyperior: 149-176 (34.3 - 40.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 111-132 (28.1 - 33.5%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 93-109 (24.8 - 29.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 87-103 (22.6 - 26.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Meloetta: 100-118 (24.8 - 29.2%) -- 0.1% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Snorlax: 114-135 (24.7 - 29.2%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

(stuff that outspeeds naturally)
252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Aerodactyl: 96-114 (31.8 - 37.8%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Jolteon: 96-114 (35.4 - 42%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Heliolisk: 97-115 (36.6 - 43.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

(stuff that requires a scarf to outspeed)
252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-H: 87-103 (36 - 42.7%) -- 90.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-C: 175-207 (72.6 - 85.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem: 202-238 (51.6 - 60.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Hydreigon: 202-238 (62.1 - 73.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

To be clear, I'm not arguing that Mega Pidgeot is bad. It's awesome and one of the top threats in the tier, perhaps even S-rank as you suggest. UU just doesn't have very many viable electric or rock types, and the best ones are Megas so they're hard to fit into your team. That doesn't change the fact that there are options to beat this thing.

 

[Chronobreak]

So, does it look like anything's gonna rise or drop this month, I'm not sure where to look.

 

[Swagodile]

So, does it look like anything's gonna rise or drop this month, I'm not sure where to look.

http://www.smogon.com/stats/2015-02/ou-1695.txt

Only thing that really has a chance of dropping from OU is Mamoswine.

| 54 | Mamoswine | 3.42712% | 45658 | 4.422% | 37426 | 4.630% |

 

[Schpoonman]

I'd like to chime in and add to that by saying that Mamoswine's usage needs to drop even further and stay there for three months before it will drop. The quick drop will only happen if it hits below 2% usage (I've forgotten the exact number, but I know it's below 2%).

 

[Wanka]

Can we get a damn suspect on gatr plz this shit literally eats all of my teams. You can literally choose which playstyle you want to beat. SD eats stall, DD punches either can just broom balance on given occasions or hole punch severely for other team members to come in and clean up the job, *cough* pedo *cough*. And offense can deal with it because most likely to have a scarfer and a priority mon but losing key members for offense can be detrimental for some teams. We all thought it would be good but just like serp where we thought it wouldn't make it out of uu at first, everyone is realizing how freaking good it really is.

 

[silenced]

Can we get a damn suspect on gatr plz this shit literally eats all of my teams. You can literally choose which playstyle you want to beat. SD eats stall, DD punches either can just broom balance on given occasions or hole punch severely for other team members to come in and clean up the job, *cough* pedo *cough*. And offense can deal with it because most likely to have a scarfer and a priority mon but losing key members for offense can be detrimental for some teams. We all thought it would be good but just like serp where we thought it wouldn't make it out of uu at first, everyone is realizing how freaking good it really is.

Just to add to that, feraligatr does get agility, and with max speed and an adamant nature, it just outpaces choice scarf mienshao after an agility. Wouldn't be saying offense is exactly safe, though at least that set isn't often used (I think, not exactly sure).

 

[DaSpoofy]

The thing about these is that not a single one can reliably come in on rocks to force out Pidgeot. When Jirachi was in the tier, it was able to come in on everything except Heat Wave and threaten out Pidge. Hydreigon, Shao, Darm, Hera, Chand, and even Mence die or take heavy heavy damage. Aside from that, only a few dedicated mons reliably beat Pidge when switching in on it. The most common are Rotom-H and Empoleon. Other mons like Florges, Porygon, or w/e else can be skilled past with Hurricane confusion.

Hehe skill past them with confusion. Another to note is that the checks for pidgeot do not have reliable recover. I have been using Mpidge and and aero counter on all my teams since I saw kokolokos post in viability threads. Ive confused my way through so many checks such as florges, empoleon, amd even umbreon. Oh no aero comes in. Better go out to p2 or cress. the usage on this thing has gone up a lot. 1400 to 1500 i see pidge on almost every team. Hurricane spam is too good for uu right now. S rank and a suspect test please

 

[Schpoonman]

Agiligatr is pretty useless against anything but offense, to be fair. Stall will of course have answers for it and Waterfall doesn't hit that hard that it can't be stopped. Suicune still eats up everything except SubDD and SD if they get lucky with Scald.

EDIT: I probably should have specified that I was addressing more specifically the Agility set, but Suicune has started running Roar much more frequently which still works over Feraligatr unless it's the last Pokemon standing.

 

[Wanka]

Agiligatr is pretty useless against anything but offense, to be fair. Stall will of course have answers for it and Waterfall doesn't hit that hard that it can't be stopped. Suicune still eats up everything except SubDD and SD if they get lucky with Scald.

Stall doesn't have answers for a Sub SD variant and any sub variant can shit on cune because most sub variants runs hp. If you read what I said I stated you can pick which playstyle you want to beat. I didnt say one set beats everything

 

[Conflict]

Stall doesn't have answers for a Sub SD variant and any sub variant can shit on cune because most sub variants runs hp. If you read what I said I stated you can pick which playstyle you want to beat. I didnt say one set beats everything

Haze-Milotic is a perfectly viable answer to Sub-SD-Gatr and fits very nicely into a stallteam. ;)

 

[Wanka]

Haze-Milotic is a perfectly viable answer to Sub-SD-Gatr and fits very nicely into a stallteam. ;)

n
not sure if ur trolling cuz u do have a spl badge but milo is D rank and has little to none usage, its irrelevant in this tier unless ur the lord life orb offensive set for shats and gaggles.

 

[Schpoonman]

I hate to be this guy, but I'm pretty fucking sure a previous SPL winner knows what he's talking about, and Milotic has been getting some attention in the Viability Thread to get it out of D. So maybe cool the fuck down.

 

[dodmen]

Gatr is really good but I can't say it's broken. Stall's got things to deal with it such as Chesnaught, Roar Suicune (not having Lefties really hurts Gatr here), defensive Mega Ampharos, Tangrowth (definitely starting to find a niche in this tier), Whimsicott, and Toxic Spikes which limit it enormously. There are also some Pokemon that can be used on defensively oriented balance that can check Gatr by virtue of their typing, such as Toxicroak and Mega Abomasnow.

Offense is more than prepared, even for DD, with Crobat, Mega Beedrill, Mega Sceptile, Mega Aerodactyl, and every relevant scarfer all outspeeding it after a Dragon Dance, as well as general offensive pressure which limits its setup and priority as a backup check. Sure, if Gatr comes in on the right thing then heavy offense may be forced to lose a mon, but that's more because of the nature of the playstyle itself, not Feraligatr.

The "you can choose which playstyle you want to beat" argument is something that I think gets thrown out there way too much, and here's why I think that's the case here. By using one set, Feraligatr really limits itself to only performing well against some playstyles and tends to fall flat against others. Sub SD may be very effective against defensive teams, but from my experience is fodder against more offensive teams, or is able to get off one hit at best. DD 3 attacks may be able to clean up weakened offense/balance, but it's not getting past Alomomola, Mega Aggron, and similar physical walls. This is in direct contrast to something like Mega Diancie, which shit on the whole tier with the same 3 moves and basically could choose between Protect/Rock Polish/CM, or Mega Medicham which was essentially guaranteed a kill each time it came on the field unless you ran one of like 3 mons. Plenty of other perfectly balanced Pokemon can vary their set to hit different targets/"pick which playstyle to beat": see Reuniclus, Lucario, Salamence, Suicune, Infernape, but all must do so at the cost of performing less effectively against other playstyles and falling to other checks and counters.

All in all, Feraligatr is a very threatening, diverse, and all-around excellent Pokemon but it's definitely not an un-check/counterable machine and has its limits in this tier.

Also Haze Milotic is not irrelevant (Milotic is not D, it's C rank, but that's subjective and doesn't necessarily say anything anyway).

 

[Wanka]

Gatr is really good but I can't say it's broken. Stall's got things to deal with it such as Chesnaught, Roar Suicune (not having Lefties really hurts Gatr here), defensive Mega Ampharos, Tangrowth (definitely starting to find a niche in this tier), Whimsicott, and Toxic Spikes which limit it enormously. There are also some Pokemon that can be used on defensively oriented balance that can check Gatr by virtue of their typing, such as Toxicroak and Mega Abomasnow.

Offense is more than prepared, even for DD, with Crobat, Mega Beedrill, Mega Sceptile, Mega Aerodactyl, and every relevant scarfer all outspeeding it after a Dragon Dance, as well as general offensive pressure which limits its setup and priority as a backup check. Sure, if Gatr comes in on the right thing then heavy offense may be forced to lose a mon, but that's more because of the nature of the playstyle itself, not Feraligatr.

The "you can choose which playstyle you want to beat" argument is something that I think gets thrown out there way too much, and here's why I think that's the case here. By using one set, Feraligatr really limits itself to only performing well against some playstyles and tends to fall flat against others. Sub SD may be very effective against defensive teams, but from my experience is fodder against more offensive teams, or is able to get off one hit at best. DD 3 attacks may be able to clean up weakened offense/balance, but it's not getting past Alomomola, Mega Aggron, and similar physical walls. This is in direct contrast to something like Mega Diancie, which shit on the whole tier with the same 3 moves and basically could choose between Protect/Rock Polish/CM, or Mega Medicham which was essentially guaranteed a kill each time it came on the field unless you ran one of like 3 mons. Plenty of other perfectly balanced Pokemon can vary their set to hit different targets/"pick which playstyle to beat": see Reuniclus, Lucario, Salamence, Suicune, Infernape, but all must do so at the cost of performing less effectively against other playstyles and falling to other checks and counters.

All in all, Feraligatr is a very threatening, diverse, and all-around excellent Pokemon but it's definitely not an un-check/counterable machine and has its limits in this tier.

Also Haze Milotic is not irrelevant (Milotic is not D, it's C rank, but that's subjective and doesn't necessarily say anything anyway).

fair enough you make some good points.

 

[Wanka]

I apologize to Conflict for getting a little heated. Sorry, I do that sometimes its just my italian nature just disregard what I said.

 

[Feliciano]

I'm almost wondering if Mega Aereodactyl might get suspected at one point for sheer usage. As others have brought up, it's easily one of - if not the - best mega in the tier, and it's presence is incredibly threatening to the point where every team needs to have something to deal with it. IMO, it restricts teambuilding a lot more than Mega Pidgeot does. Heck, just look at the viability thread; there's a string of arguments re: Mega Pidgeot for S rank, but they basically get shut down because Mega Aerodactyl is a thing that exists. I haven't run into too many gatrs, but then again, I haven't managed to get nearly as high on the ladder as I would like. I'm starting to hit that slump where the people I'm getting matched against are just above my current skill level, so I'm losing more often than not.

Also I am clearly just a shit player because based on those calcs I am not using Mega Pidgeot correctly at all

 

[LeoLancaster]

I don't see how Aero can restrict teambuilding more than Pidgeot when there are only a handful of good Pidgeot switch-ins (Aero, Rhyperior, Amphy, and to a lesser extent IB Emp, Rotom-H, Aggron), while Cress, Cune, Pert, Forry, Reuni, Aggron, Seismitoad, Slowking, etc. are all good Aero switch-ins with a number of checks depending on Aero's coverage as well (think Emp, Krook, etc.), which is more than can be said for Pidgeot which smacks everything with mono flying. Like at least things such as Sub SD Gatr perform poorly against offense meaning there's some cost to using it. If it wasn't for Aero Pidgeot would be completely borked imho.

 

[DaSpoofy]

I'm almost wondering if Mega Aereodactyl might get suspected at one point for sheer usage. As others have brought up, it's easily one of - if not the - best mega in the tier, and it's presence is incredibly threatening to the point where every team needs to have something to deal with it. IMO, it restricts teambuilding a lot more than Mega Pidgeot does. Heck, just look at the viability thread; there's a string of arguments re: Mega Pidgeot for S rank, but they basically get shut down because Mega Aerodactyl is a thing that exists. I haven't run into too many gatrs, but then again, I haven't managed to get nearly as high on the ladder as I would like. I'm starting to hit that slump where the people I'm getting matched against are just above my current skill level, so I'm losing more often than not.

Also I am clearly just a shit player because based on those calcs I am not using Mega Pidgeot correctly at all

Do we suspect test as a result of sheer usage?

 

[Schpoonman]

Extremely high usage can be a symptom of a broken Pokemon. In Genesect's BW2 suspect test it broke 50% usage. I mean, there were other symptoms, like the Scarf set was so good there were literally zero teams (even hard stall) that didn't want it. But high usage alone does not equate to a broken Pokemon.

 

[teal6]

Usage alone is a bad reason for a suspect, and honestly I don't think MAero deserves one. He's good, yes, but you can "account" for MAero while still accounting for other things - it's rare that a team has a single mon solely dedicated to covering MAero while doing nothing else (which is the #1 sign of brokenness to me, Serperior really straddled this line).

Frankly, a decent amount of MPidgeot checks can work for MAero, which is enough for me to think that he doesn't need to be suspected. And those checks also offer utility without being dead weight. Jolly MAero can never OHKO Rhyperior, for example, but can be OHKO'd back (I don't think Adamant can either tbh). Rhyperior is definitely a good mon in this metagame, checking both birds, carrying SR, checking Entei, etc. This is just one example, but when there are viable options to use that cover multiple possibilities, it leads me to think that the suspect in question isn't ban-worthy.

 

[Darvin]

If we're going to talk usage alone then Crobat would be first in line for a suspect, not Aerodactyl. Looking at the historical usage stats, Crobat has consistently had more usage than Aerodactyl (by a considerable margin, too) for every month as far back as the records go. Of course, this speaks more to how well Crobat can fit into any team rather than its raw power. Got an empty 6th slot and you're not sure what to fill it with? There's probably a Crobat set that will work well.

I agree that usage alone is a bad reason for a suspect test. If we were seeing truly obscene usage levels, like 40% or 50%, then that might be another matter. However, nothing in UU comes close to that level of ubiquity.