np: ORAS OU Suspect Process, Round 3 - Ghosts [Giratina-O remains in Ubers - check the OP]

[Slimmer]

Really guys I don't understand this thing that now you all want to balance the tier unbanning stuff while you banned Aegislash even tho it wasn't that "broken" (like Gira could be) and it would've balanced the tier better (look at those fairies/fight/psychic banished from OU when it was free)

Can you give me an answer to this? Pro and Cons? Differences? I don't find em at all besides some specific roles (Gira wisp defog phaze while aegi only could subtoxic as defensive roles; both are good mixed attackers with few flaws)
I find this choice a bit incoherent with previous suspects and philosophy followed in those

 

[ShoM]

Why are you deleting all the comments which say that they're against the un-banning? Way to choose a side....
This is just priming leading to an unbalanced voting (people only see comments on unbanning G-O, therefore they'll be more inclined to vote for it too). Well done, Smogon...
But I'll definitely vote, and make my voice known.
Also, if you remove my comment, it just confirms what I've said above. GG.

if you actually READ THE GOD DAMN RULES, you would know that those removed post broke the rules and in fact should be removed.

Personally I'm expecting Giratina-O to not just completely destroy everything in its path shockingly enough. It will be a very strong pokemon in OU ladder, that much is obvious. I would bring in Aegislash as a comparison point. Aegislash had better typing, better utility, better offence and could actually use items. Aegislash was BARELY banned so if Giratina-O is worse Aegislash and Aegi itself is barely in uber tier, doesn't that mean Giratina-O has quite a good shot at being reasonabe pkmn in OU? I will not say it's worthy of OU or UBER tier slot before I see some results on ladder thou.

TL;DR Hold in your juices, its not like we are talking of Kyogre or Xerneas

 

[Sweep]

At first glance, I can see why the OU Council would want to suspect Giratina-O. It's true that Giratina has a grand total of 5 weaknesses to pick on. It is also forced to run Griseous Orb, making the item it uses predictable (although that's a really good item for it, it's like getting to run both Spooky Plate AND Draco Plate). However, by no means is Giratina-O itself predictable. With a ridiculous offensive movepool consisting of Draco Meteor, Thunder, Aura Sphere, Earthquake, Dragon Tail, Shadow Sneak, Earth Power, Stone Edge, and more, an all-out attacking set can easily put massive holes into Stall teams. This is particularly true if you get a hazard up and start spamming Dragon Tail, which will VERY quickly wear down walls. What is supposed to reliably check this Pokemon, forget counter it? Clefable is the best check I can think of, but Shadow Ball puts a massive dent into physically defensive sets (~50% damage on average). Azumarill loses to Thunder / Will-O-Wisp, Bisharp loses easily to Will-O-Wisp / Earth Power / Aura Sphere, Chansey switches are Dragon Tailed to death, and Gengar / Lati@s are vulnerable to Shadow Sneak. I guess Kyurem-B can spam Outrage, and specially defensive Hippowdon and Sylveon are passable checks, but none of three Pokemon are exactly splashable.

There's also the Rest set, which is ridiculously hard to kill and with some favorable Sleep Talk rolls can slowly wear down the opposing team.

Giratina-O won't be able to carry coverage to handle all Pokemon that can potentially beat it, I admit. But this is an incredibly dangerous and unpredictable Pokemon you guys are thinking about suspecting.

 

[Blazikarados]

+6 252+ SpA Chansey Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 8 SpD Giratina-O: 402-474 (91.1 - 107.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

You could say Shadow Force, but that's just bait for one of the recent metagame trends, Pyroar. Other then that, it's set up bait, it doesn't hit very hard, and basically everything OHKOs it.

I'm really hoping you're kidding... :O

On a serious note, it seems that Giratina could be legitimately good for dealing with the threats in the current metagame, as I feel as though there are just too many threats at the moment and you're bound to get whupped by something. I'm going to reserve judgment until I've had a chance to play on the suspect ladder, because actual results speak louder than theorymonning.

Because a good number of the megas and OU 'mons in general have abilities that essentially raise their BST for some attacks (Tough Claws for contact moves, Aerilate, etc. etc.), despite Gira-o's large BST the BST argument really doesn't hold water. I'd say that it could help make OU more fun, but again, I'd rather hold off on judgement until the suspect ladder is opened.

 

[Agastya]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Giratina-O have Levitate, which renders it immune to toxic spikes?

Just run Gravity. That way you can burn it easier with Will o Wisp in case you fail to get your Toxic Spikes down before it enters the field!

 

[MaestroDeSWAG]

+2 252+ Atk Bisharp Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 248 Def Giratina-O: 360-426 (81.6 - 96.5%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 8 SpD Giratina-O: 338-400 (76.6 - 90.7%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+6 252+ SpA Chansey Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 8 SpD Giratina-O: 402-474 (91.1 - 107.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 248 Def Giratina-O: 422-500 (95.6 - 113.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 8 SpD Giratina-O: 549-647 (124.4 - 146.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Outrage vs. 0 HP / 248 Def Giratina-O: 524-618 (118.8 - 140.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Dragon Pulse vs. 0 HP / 8 SpD Giratina-O: 214-254 (48.5 - 57.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Landorus Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 8 SpD Giratina-O: 234-276 (53 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+3 252 SpA Manaphy Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 8 SpD Giratina-O: 406-478 (92 - 108.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Griseous Orb Giratina-O Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 135-160 (21 - 24.9%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
180 Atk Griseous Orb Giratina-O Dragon Tail vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Infernape: 210-247 (32.2 - 37.9%) -- 95% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Griseous Orb Giratina-O Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus: 90-106 (28.2 - 33.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ Atk Griseous Orb Giratina-O Shadow Claw vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus: 154-183 (48.2 - 57.3%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Griseous Orb Giratina-O Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 198-234 (66.2 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Griseous Orb Giratina-O Shadow Sneak vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 248-294 (76.5 - 90.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

You could say Shadow Force, but that's just bait for one of the recent metagame trends, Pyroar. Other then that, it's set up bait, it doesn't hit very hard, and basically everything OHKOs it.

TF? What does this prove??? +6 Chansey ice beam? Really? Shadow sneak? How about shadow CLAW, if anything. Pyroar, a metagame trend?

Not to totally flame you, but this is just a useless post with no real relavance.

 

[JebusChrist]

Hey I think it's worth pointing out that Giratina-O is actually less powerful offensively than many other Pokemon in OU.

252+ SpA Griseous Orb Giratina-O Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 135-160 (21 - 24.9%) -- guaranteed 5HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 142-168 (22.1 - 26.1%) -- 5.4% chance to 4HKO

252+ SpA Draco Plate Adaptability Dragalge Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 158-186 (24.6 - 28.9%) -- 99.5% chance to 4HKO

(not that you should be trying to Draco Meteor a Chansey but it's for the sake of the example.)

I'm not decided or anything and I probably won't end up laddering if this turns out not to be a joke, but I think if people want to ban it because of sheer power you're wrong.

Unlike every other Draco Meteor user in OU, Giratina has powerful physical presence (EQ Latios is much weaker) along with huge bulk. It has (besides Bisharp) perfect coverage with its STABs, and has high base power moves to make up for his relatively low base atk/sp.atk (Draco Meteor, Outrage, Shadow Force), as well as STAB Shadow Sneak and that's not even mentioning his obscene 150/100/100 bulk and solid defensive typing, along with Will-O-Wisp.

Tbh I don't see how it is any worse than Aegislash. Both have huge natural bulk and strong mixed offenses. Aegislash is bulkier with Max HP investment, as well as beating fairies/dragons but at the cost of losing to fire/ground types. Giratina has enough speed to be able to outspeed most walls and a lot of bulkmons, its bulk is not conditional on its ability (which is a really nice ability too), and it has utility in Defog/WoW/Dragon Tail. Since Aegislash was banned by such a narrow vote, might as well retest it first before testing Giratina imo.

 

[p2]

What. The. Fuck.

On paper this thing sounds completely ridiculous, 150/100/100 is simply amazing and 120/120/90 offenses are good enough. It's a bulky af defogger who doesn't give a shit about Knock Off and has WoW to cripple stuff. I really don't know what in OU could counter this thing apart from Clefable or M-Diancie. You can't even revenge kill it with the likes of Gengar because of Shadow Sneak which OHKOs after SR or 1 round of LO recoil.

Either way, whether it's a joke or not, I really want to see how OU handles this and see how much of an impact it has on the tier.

 

[WECAMEASROMANS]

rofl giratina-o is not that good and isnt even broken in the slightest, can y'all pls stop acting like its some blantant super overpowered mon looooool

giratina-o has no reliable methods of recovery outside of painsplit/rest which is horrible for a defensive pokemon. it has weaknesses to common attacking types such as fairy, dark, ghost, ice, and dragon, which are among the best attacking types in the tier. it also cannot hold an item and hits pretty weak offensively compared to the other top tier offensive threats.

here is a replay of me destroying some user that decided to use giratina-a stall. look how easy it was for me to remove the giratina and take it out of the game
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-221612248

giratina-a is not broken as all of you say it is, PLEASE UNBAN

 

[Zephyria]

Just run Gravity. That way you can burn it easier with Will o Wisp in case you fail to get your Toxic Spikes down before it enters the field!

Gravity is already a pretty niche move with massive opportunity cost in the OU Meta. Running it just to check Giratina smacks of overcentralization.

 

[Everstoned321]

Not gonna lie, I read the title of the thread and immediately thought "Really? I wasn't expecting MSableye to get tested next." Needless to say, I assumed wrong haha. This should be interesting to say the least. I'll withhold my judgment until I see what Giratina's presence does for the metagame.

 

[Yay. Fun.]

Just run Gravity. That way you can burn it easier with Will o Wisp in case you fail to get your Toxic Spikes down before it enters the field!

Gravity is not a good move at all in the metagame. It hardly accomplishes any roles that are at least semi-useful, and even then Giratina-O can still run Rest Talk.

 

[A7XDrumCovers]

TF? What does this prove??? +6 Chansey ice beam? Really? Shadow sneak? How about shadow CLAW, if anything. Pyroar, a metagame trend?

Not to totally flame you, but this is just a useless post with no real relavance.

Actually, +2 Bisharp and Play Rough Azumarill are VERY relevant.

Not to mention the Latios, and Dragonite. Plus Manaphy is pretty scary now too.

 

[the poke sweeper]

This suspect test caught me off guard. Im curious to how Giratina O will effect the meta game.

 

[oryxslayer]

Here's my initial 2 cents about the topic. I think that putting giratina-O in ou is a fairly interesting idea as it never stood out to me as incredibly powerful or insanely bulky in the ubers tier. It would definitely help keep some threats in check and allow balanced teams to avoid running Lati on every team just to softly check zard y and lando-i. However, It might prove to be too much for OU, but hey, kyubes is currently fine in ou, and they both have their restrictions (griseous orb, no physical ice stab). Anyway, I think this is very interesting and currently I am undecided.

 

[Don Honchkrorleone]

Giratina-O isn't broken beause you can use it too

And Mega Audino Counters Iron Tail-less variants

 

[Updated Kanto]

I think Giratina would be a great addition to the ou tier! Mainly because it walls some CRAZY STRONG pokemon like Landorus-I, MegaZard-Y, Keldeo as well as having nice defense stats and access to will o wisp!
HOWEVER, while it may have good defensive stats its also VULNERABLE to some common pokemon like CM / Life Orb Clefable, Lum Bisharp, The Latis, and can get worn down EASILY (easily mind you-) since it has no reliable recovery. (RESTTALK IS NOT RELIABLE) this is why Giratina would make a great addition to the ORAS OU Metagame :).

 

[Silk Weaver]

pyroar? how is that a metagame trend? +6 chansey ice beam? when on earth would you use that? also, why would you switch him into a s.e move at +2?

From my experience, Pyroar is very popular at the 1100-1200 range.

| 6 | Pyroar | 17.110% |

Calm Mind Blissey was a very good ADV set, but fell out of usage as people decided to use Chansey for it's superior bulk. If you look at my previous calc, Draco Meteor does nothing to Chansey, making it complete set up fodder.

And it's not that Giratina is switching in, but it can't do anything to stop Bisharp from setting up. It can't burn due to lum berry, and Giratina can't do much but sit there and die.

252+ Atk Griseous Orb Giratina-O Shadow Claw vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 72-84 (26.4 - 30.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 SpA Griseous Orb Giratina-O Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp: 161-190 (59.1 - 69.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Giratina-O Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 226-268 (83 - 98.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[MaestroDeSWAG]

Actually, +2 Bisharp and Play Rough Azumarill are VERY relevant.

Not to mention the Latios, and Dragonite. Plus Manaphy is pretty scary now too.

I never mentioned those two... Not sure what you're trying to argue here.

I do think the whole point of this suspect really is "broken checking broken," which is, as we all know, supposed to be completely invalid. I don't mean to say that I'm completely opposed to it, I just think this is important to remember

From my experience, Pyroar is very popular at the 1100-1200 range.

| 6 | Pyroar | 17.110% |

Calm Mind Blissey was a very good ADV set, but fell out of usage as people decided to use Chansey for it's superior bulk. If you look at my previous calc, Draco Meteor does nothing to Chansey, making it complete set up fodder.

And it's not that Giratina is switching in, but it can't do anything to stop Bisharp from setting up. It can't burn due to lum berry, and Giratina can't do much but sit there and die.

252+ Atk Griseous Orb Giratina-O Shadow Claw vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 72-84 (26.4 - 30.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 SpA Griseous Orb Giratina-O Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp: 161-190 (59.1 - 69.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Giratina-O Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 226-268 (83 - 98.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

"1100-1200" lol, you mean, "The Realm of the Scrubs?" I've never actually heard it referred to as "1100-1200 range..." Sorry, that's totally douchy, but thats really low on the ladder. Just because something sees use there proves literally nothing

 

[doughboy]

At first glance, I can see why the OU Council would want to suspect Giratina-O. It's true that Giratina has a grand total of 5 weaknesses to pick on. It is also forced to run Griseous Orb, making the item it uses predictable (although that's a really good item for it, it's like getting to run both Spooky Plate AND Draco Plate). However, by no means is Giratina-O itself predictable. With a ridiculous offensive movepool consisting of Draco Meteor, Thunder, Aura Sphere, Earthquake, Dragon Tail, Shadow Sneak, Earth Power, Stone Edge, and more, an all-out attacking set can easily put massive holes into Stall teams. This is particularly true if you get a hazard up and start spamming Dragon Tail, which will VERY quickly wear down walls. What is supposed to reliably check this Pokemon, forget counter it? Clefable is the best check I can think of, but Shadow Ball puts a massive dent into physically defensive sets (~50% damage on average). Azumarill loses to Thunder / Will-O-Wisp, Bisharp loses easily to Will-O-Wisp / Earth Power / Aura Sphere, Chansey switches are Dragon Tailed to death, and Gengar / Lati@s are vulnerable to Shadow Sneak. I guess Kyurem-B can spam Outrage, and specially defensive Hippowdon and Sylveon are passable checks, but none of three Pokemon are exactly splashable.

There's also the Rest set, which is ridiculously hard to kill and with some favorable Sleep Talk rolls can slowly wear down the opposing team.

Giratina-O won't be able to carry coverage to handle all Pokemon that can potentially beat it, I admit. But this is an incredibly dangerous and unpredictable Pokemon you guys are thinking about suspecting.

Uncounterable my ass

Standard Mandibuzz with 248 HP / 136 Def / 108 SpD EV's easily counters Giratina-O. Even with max special attack, Giratina will fail to 2HKO with Draco Meteor or Outrage. Here are some calcs for you:

252+ SpA Griseous Orb Giratina-O Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 108 SpD Mandibuzz: 246-291 (58.1 - 68.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
180 Atk Griseous Orb Giratina-O Outrage vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Mandibuzz: 162-192 (38.2 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Griseous Orb Giratina-O Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 108 SpD Mandibuzz: 76-90 (17.9 - 21.2%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery

Its not like Mandibuzz is totally helpless either. Foul Play does a clean 60%+ to Mixed Giratina-O. On top of that, Mandibuzz can use Toxic to wear down Giratina over time and use Defog to stop it from racking up damage with Dragon Tail + Stealth Rock.

0- Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Giratina-O: 278-330 (63 - 74.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[astroboy]

really glad we're testing giritina-o. why was this thing banned in the first place? ghost type? say hello to my BISHARP!!!!!!!!!!!!! it has checks so we should unban it tbh. mega audino, an already top tier OU threat, just gets better with giritina, the so-called "leg dairy" dropping from ubers

 

[foreversevenfold]

Wait, so Giratina-O exclusively is being tested and not Giratina? Does this mean OU Giratina must run Griseous Orb?

If so, that's a new kind of new 'item restriction' clause if I've ever seen one (the exact opposite case between Lati@s and Soul Dew). As for the testing of Giratina-O itself, I'm honestly not too surprised considering the 'precedent' set by Kyurem-B's stay in OU.

I don't think this is exactly an item restriction like the likes of soul dew. Since the two forms have different base stats, they have different potential. The fact that Giritina-O HAS to hold a specific item is just adding to the reasons that it can be suspected in OU since it can't recovery from leftovers or boosts from choice items.

 

[Vert]

giratina-o would be a great addition to the tier. it just makes so many things more manageable in this oras metagame where there are too many threats to handle and helps make a balanced metagame. all you do is add giratina-o to a team and you have a way to check the majority of the metagame. it's not that broken when it deals with numerous issues in this passive metagame and it can be worn down easily / revenge killed by stuff like bisharp the main thing is that fairy types completely wreck it. i believe this is a great addition to creating a balanced metagame since it beats metagross and landorus, but i will have to try the ladder before posting more.

 

[fish anemometer]

Hmm... An interesting move it can utilize is definitely calm mind. With all the things it walls I think it could pull it off. You could also go with cro-tina since you'll be worn down pretty fast...

 

[Master B8s]

Little Surprised to see Giratina-O of all things being retested into OU. As i player that has wanted to see previous bans retested (within logical reasoning), I just didn't expect it to be Giratina. Where do i start, honestly i think this thing is a little too much for OU. Defensively, its typing is unique to say the least. It has a handful of useful resistances, like Water, Grass, Fire, Electric, Bug and Poison, Not to mention Immunities to Fighting and Normal Types, and a Ground Immunity is always nice (aside from Mold Breakers). Not to mention 150/100/100 Defenses (no recovery does suck though). This thing easily can fulfill a blanket check for a lot of common OU mons (Lando-I, Keldeo, Zard-Y,) Its weaknesses are still there though, Weaknesses to Dark, Fairy, Ghost, Dragon and Ice, all relatively common attacking types, but ill get to that. Offensively, 120/120 is amazing, and while the point has been bought up that it is restricted to holding the Griseous Orb, this isn't the worst thing in the world. A 1.2 Boost to its STAB Moves, which i should mention, Ghost and Dragon are arguably the two best types offensively in the game. Dark Weakness is at worst Knock Off, so any weak non-stab Knock Off won't really bother this guy. Dark Types that might give him trouble i can think of are Tyranitar and Bisharp, who can be crippled by Wisp (or Aura Sphere on the switch if you're real). Ghost weakness is pretty irrelevnt seeing as gengar is the only ghost type, and he takes a ton of Damage from Shadow Sneak. Dragons if they are faster, but still fear switching into a Draco or Dragon Claw/Tail. Ice Types can get bopped by Aura Sphere so they still have to be weary of switching in. Fairies i do admit might give him some trouble, but Faries are easily checked and can be handled. The next point i would bring up are the move sets it can run. Honestly, you could run dual Stabs and have two support moves like wisp, defog, destiny bond, roar, rest, thunder wave, toxic and tailwind, all viable support moves, so its a pretty big guessing game at what it can run. If you want a more Offensive approach, you can run CM with D-Pulse/Shadow Sneak/Aura Sphere which has Perfect Neutral coverage. Overall, i admit that Giratina has its flaws (Easily Checked due to its low speed, Common weaknesses, Pursuit weakness) but i don't think thats enough to viably say that i feel comfortable letting this thing back in OU.