np: ORAS OU Suspect Process, Round 3 - Ghosts [Giratina-O remains in Ubers - check the OP]

[Slimmer]

because it checks/counters some pokemon thats in some regards is impossible for an ou team off 6 slots to check well either way

So the point seems to be "unban broken stuff to check broken stuff" when since from DPP times as now the suspect politic was "If there's something broken then ban it, even if this balance other broken stuff; suspect them afterwards" so I don't get why now the trend's changed, especially with a threat not properly reasonable to unban.
I'm laughing at all sheeps that said "ban" to Aegi and now "unban" cuz this is quite the same situation (im not referring this to u bluwing dw, u argued several things in this thread)
Metagame's not cool atm yeah as it wasn't before, keep banning stuff that'd be toxic, even if quite sensible in OU, was the thought and it was right (metagame went better) so now what kind of logical points would change the whole thing?
You stated that Landorus-I is really hard to check etc so why don't we just suspect it?

This would be a bad precedent that could allow stuff like Kyu-W Ho-Oh Megaluke and even Skymin back in OU :/

 

[MegaMogwai]

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-221746382 just a nice replay of me 6-0ing stall

I'm quite surprised that you would post a replay which showcases how bad of a sport you are. Constantly disrespecting your opponent and dissing on him while he says nothing back to you nor showcases off any sort of disrespectul attitude whatsoever. People like you are what's so wrong with PS these days. It's a game for crying out loud lol.

Regarding the suspect test, there's not much that I can say that hasn't been said yet.

I do understand the reasoning behind the decision to suspect Giratina, but I just don't see it being healthy for the metagame, at all. It's going to overcentralize the metagame way too much, you'll see that mon on pretty much every OU team because of how versatile and straight up GOOD it is. It's typing is nowhere near bad, combined with it's ridiculous BST and it's amazing moveset... I just don't see how this thing is going to do any good. OU will revolve around it.

It's cool to have a suspect test and see how it works out, who knows maybe i'll change my mind but I don't see that happening haha.

 

[Bluwing]

the thing is gira-o just happened to have the typing, ability and the bulk to fit what ou really needs. i agree on that gira-o is extremely versatile, strong and ofc i understand people thinking this is stupid. but hey why not try something new instead off bashing this supect test from the get go? we should all be able to think outside off the box, ppl are acting like gira-o already is unbanned and stating such as the meta is shit atm, ofc it is shit atm when u drop a new pokemon as significant and metagame changing as gira-o what would u expect? lets see how ppl will adapt to it in the two following weeks when ppl can actually back up their opinion on it, and stop bashing it for being "top uber material" we all know that, be a little open minded please.

 

[Merritt]

I admit, my first thoughts when I realized this was serious was why the hell is it Giratina-O who's being suspected from Ubers? Beyond the fact that it would counter/check prominent threats in today's meta, I can't see a reason why such a powerful and useful Uber would be suspected over some of the subpar for Ubers and so much more reasonable for OU Pokemon such as the completely outclassed (and honestly not that strong in light of current threats) Deoxys-N.

To actually discuss the current suspect instead of talking about other possible suspects, I fail to see how Giratina-O is reasonable in OU. Put frankly, it's incredibly good and there is pretty much no reason whatsoever to not run it on your team. It has zero opportunity cost, unlike Megas with similar BSTs, and it fulfills a different role than most other dragons and ghosts (except Sableye-Mega and bulky ZardX, both of whom take your mega slot). It fits on most teams, stall works with it as an incredibly bulky spinblocker+offensive answer to wallbreakers, balance has it as a fantastic blanket check and counter to a majority of the tier, and even offense can use it as a very powerful (if slightly slow) offensive mon.

It's insanely bulky, far better than Aegislash and naturally bulkier than even Deoxys-D with the same spread.

252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 8 SpD Deoxys-D: 226-268 (93.7 - 111.2%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 8 SpD Giratina-O: 338-400 (76.6 - 90.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

It also has fantastic offensive presence, being stronger than Landorus-I and equaling Specs Keldeo. You can call its offensive stats only good, but its STABs are deceptively strong due to the "useless" Griseous Orb. To put a number to it, its STABs are working off an effective 154 base due to Griseous. Not that weak when you consider that's higher than Zekrom and Reshiram.

252+ SpA Griseous Orb Giratina-O Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 264-312 (65.3 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 268-316 (66.3 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 230-270 (56.9 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Also I honestly have an issue with the fact that it's Giratina-O exclusively being suspected, instead of Giratina in general. Unlike suspecting Mega Stones, which is banning an item really, this is proposing allowing a mon back in OU only if certain conditions are met. That leads itself incredibly easily to just a step forward and saying that Blaze Blaziken is allowed. I'm sorry for bring up that old argument, but this is incredibly close to saying just that. The argument that it's permissible because Giratina-O is different than Giratina-A is difficult to quantify. How much is different enough? How about allowing certain Arceus formes? They're certainly different for one another, arguably more so than Giratina since their types differ, and I'm sure that one or two are acceptable in OU. If it's the stat difference, why not allow KS-less Aegislash? That prevents it from choosing between two forms at the drop of a hat, and it'd certainly not be broken. The suspect of only Giratina-O instead of Giratina-A as well leaves a lot open.

I apologize if this last part skirts the edges of the rules about discussion, and ask that you focus more on the middle part.

 

[BlazeLatias]

It also has fantastic offensive presence, being stronger than Landorus-I and equaling Specs Keldeo. You can call its offensive stats only good, but its STABs are deceptively strong due to the "useless" Griseous Orb. To put a number to it, its STABs are working off an effective 154 base due to Griseous. Not that weak when you consider that's higher than Zekrom and Reshiram.

252+ SpA Griseous Orb Giratina-O Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 264-312 (65.3 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 268-316 (66.3 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 230-270 (56.9 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

This is probably just me but your calcing +sp.a giratina-o And not lets say a +speed nature. If you were to makes specs keldeo modest(not a thing but you know what i mean) you would find out specs keldeo would still be stronger. Also rp lando run modest right?

 

[Mega-Fenix]

Well ... the suspect seems like a good idea, since for many threats ou, but with this pokemon in the current metagame is almost mandatory a fairy type on the team.

 

[Merritt]

This is probably just me but your calcing +sp.a giratina-o And not lets say a +speed nature. If you were to makes specs keldeo modest(not a thing but you know what i mean) you would find out specs keldeo would still be stronger. Also rp lando run modest right?

The advantage to Giratina not being fast is that it can afford to run a neutral speed nature. If Keldeo, for example, runs something other than Timid it loses out to the base 100 Speed tier which it needs to outrun because of its lacking bulk. Landorus-I I'll give to you, but non-RP do run a +Spe nature.

And even then...

252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 251-296 (62.1 - 73.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

It's still weaker.

 

[Dee Train]

Im excited to try this out on the suspect test ladder. from there I will form a more concrete opinion.

However on the surface I am concerned about this becomeing a centralizing force, as this will fit on many teams quite easily. But on the flip side to that.. the meta has a lot of powerful stuff as is that it may not be the worse.... as you can see I;m a bit torn

 

[pokecole]

not gonna respond to your whole post, but you seem to miss the point. like why gira-o and not aegislash, and other pokemon in the ubers metagame with low usage didn't drop down. gira-o is chosen because it checks/counters some pokemon thats in some regards is impossible for an ou team off 6 slots to check well either way, like u said it has nothing to do with it's ranking or performance in the ubers game, but it has a ton to do with it's typing, ability and ofc it's bulk! having a pokemon that checks zard y / lando-i / serperior / m-metagross in one slot is an incredibly valuable feat in the ou metagame and it is to help balance out the metagame because off the power creep. ive played whole xy ou and whole oras ou and i can say by heart that this suspect test is smart and a good way to see if bringing something down can help the metagame "evolve" or "balance" out as it won't atm due to the huge powercreep in ou atm.

lol?
You are seriously saying that this will help powercreep by introducing something that brings more power and makes it less balanced. Do you know what powercreep is? It's when they slowly and steadily introduce stronger things in a tier or banlist or whatever. This is legit what introducing giratina would do. The legitimate definition of powercreep.

It's extremely overcentralizing and causes immense powercreep. This shouldn't be considered; aegislash was less overcentralizing than this. Literally every team would have a sylveon or unaware clefable. That's not cool.

It should be clearly evident to us at this time that checking possibly broken with broken isn't good.

 

[nyttyn]

my experience thusfar on the ladder has been Giratina-o surviving such incredible feats like Tyranitar's Crunch (63%), Mega Diancie's Moonblast(91% without any special defense investment on gyro's part), and turning even Bisharp, which should be a pretty good check, into an absolute 50/50 due to being unable to be pursuit trapped (due to access to Aura Sphere).

I was willing to experiment with this but, sweet baby monkey jesus, this thing is just incredibly absurd. Lack of reliable recovery does gimp him somewhat, but when he's taking 56% from a CRITICAL Mega Lopunny Hi Jump Kick (Something that would outright CHUNK most pokemon), you know we're dealing with a wall that will simply cause the tier to revolve around it. Again, this is just my early experience (20~ or so battles), but so far Giratina-O just seems...way too much.

 

[benjamin4321]

lol?
You are seriously saying that this will help powercreep by introducing something that brings more power and makes it less balanced. Do you know what powercreep is? It's when they slowly and steadily introduce stronger things in a tier or banlist or whatever. This is legit what introducing giratina would do. The legitimate definition of powercreep.

It's extremely overcentralizing and causes immense powercreep. This shouldn't be considered; aegislash was less overcentralizing than this. Literally every team would have a sylveon or unaware clefable. That's not cool.

It should be clearly evident to us at this time that checking possibly broken with broken isn't good.

Power creep means the unbalancing of a game due to new content, it's not just the increase of bsts. Giratina-O acts as a check to a variety of wallbreakers and thats extremely useful; the whole OU is based on matchup thing has some merit and that is not so great imo. Yes giratina-o is threatening, but what it does is provide an answer to char y, lando I etc in one fell swoop. It can basically make the game almost like 4th gen again where 6 mons now actually have a hope of stopping a wider variety of threats. That's just my opinion atm.

 

[Cherub Agent]

I was... surprised at this move. I don't think anyone wasn't. I'm not sure if this thing is broken in OU or not, but I can definetly applaud the council for testing it. They've looked at the current state of the OU metagame, seen and recognized the factor that makes it more unpleasant to play than past metagames (team matchup and the ability to cover enough threats on a single team) and cherry picked the Uber Pokemon out that can significantly help with this issue.

Guys, most of you are viewing this suspect test wrongly. It's not about bringing down stronger and stronger Pokemon and augmenting the power creep. It's lessening it. Giratina-O was chosen for a very specific reason in that it provides a blanket check to OU's nastiest threats. Instead of desperately scrambling to make a team of six which can somewhat deal with all metagame threats (this is close to impossible, you're always going to be weak to something rather major), you can use Giratina-O which offers you far more breathing room. The only way I can see Giratina-O really being considered broken is due to the overcentralizing aspect I think it could potentially cause, but while it may see massive usage and immense versatility, I don't think it'll be able to warp the metagame around itself, and here's why:

Call me an oldish (BAN ME PLEASE), but when looking to ban a Pokemon I still use the three characteristics of Offensive/Defensive/Supportive, and I don't feel that Giratina excels in any one of these to the degree that it's overpowered.

The offensive characteristic is based on the premise that the Pokemon in question is able to sweep or break through the majority of teams with little to no cost to itself. Does this apply to Giratina? Nah. It would be foolish to call it weak, but it's only boosting move to sweep is Calm Mind, and while it has some considerable power and coverage with one if its STAB moves and Aura Sphere when going this route, you unfortunately are very prone to passive damage in Toxic/Sand/Burn w/e due to absolutely no recovery, Taunt, phazing, and faster attackers of which there are plenty. It has two very strong STAB moves, but both have drawbacks and are on opposite ends of the attacking spectrum so it's very unlikely it'll be able to efficiently run both on the same set, and its low Speed means it's unable to blitz through teams.

---

A Pokemon with no recovery that by virtue of its bulk and typing WILL be switching into a lot of strong attacks (I think I've seen that it will nearly always be 3HKOed by the threats it has to take on) is vulnerable to soaking up one hit, forcing the opponent out, but then cannot do it again due to the combination of Stealth Rock and two more hits of what it previously tanked putting it in KO range. I'm going to list some calcs of this occurring (note I have no idea what EV spreads it'll be running, so let's stick with some max ones for now). Obviously these Pokemon will need some teammates that can actually come in on Giratina-O after they're forced out the first time, but Pokemon such as Heatran and Clefable are top OU mons anyway, it's not like this is a huge metagame adaptation.

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 0 HP / 252+ Def Giratina-O: 153-181 (34.6 - 41%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (even w/o SR, it can only switch in once. not only is this with full defensive investment, it doesn't even account for Attack raises or Ice Punch)

252 Atk Mega Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 252+ Def Giratina-O: 159-187 (36 - 42.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (same story)

252+ SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina-O in Sun: 124-147 (28.1 - 33.3%) -- 96% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock (I VERY much doubt Giratina will run max SDef, so this calc is worse than it looks. Regardless, even with three absolute minimum roles, two Stealth Rock switchins means it can't take three Fire Blasts)

252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina-O: 69-82 (15.6 - 18.5%) -- possible 5HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Dragon Pulse vs. 0 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina-O: 242-286 (54.8 - 64.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (at first glance this looks bad for Serperior, but just wait a second. SR damage (12.5%) + initial Leaf Storm (~17%) + +2 Dragon Pulse (~59%) = around a whopping 90% damage! just think, it only has to switch in on Stealth Rock once beforehand, or have a smidge of prior damage, and the thing it's supposed to beat actually beats IT. And that's not even considering non max SDef!)

This is, quite frankly, unimpressive. If you want Giratina-O to actually deal with top threats, it either needs RestTalk or Wish support. And both aren't exactly reliable. The lack of Leftovers on Giratina-O is a MASSIVE detrement to its survivability.

 

[pokecole]

Power creep means the unbalancing of a game due to new content, it's not just the increase of bsts. Giratina-O acts as a check to a variety of wallbreakers and thats extremely useful; the whole OU is based on matchup thing has some merit and that is not so great imo. Yes giratina-o is threatening, but what it does is provide an answer to char y, lando I etc in one fell swoop. It can basically make the game almost like 4th gen again where 6 mons now actually have a hope of stopping a wider variety of threats. That's just my opinion atm.

Yeah it checks those things, but the problem is that it checks those things along with the entire metagame.
I legit don't see how you guys think this is a good idea. It's supposed to be very difficult to stop the meta with 6 mons. That's the point of team building. If we had a team that could stop everything, everyone would just run that team...

 

[Lady Vader]

I was shocked when I read this, but after some analysis, I don't think unbanning Giratina-O is a bad thing. It could backfire, resulting a reban, but I think it could work.
While it does have an amazing presence and it does resist some good types, Giratina's weakness are a problem, especially many Fairy-types. Even an uninvested Sylveon's Hyper Voice is a 2HKO where Giratina's best attacks are a 4HKO.

I do find one problem with Giratina-O's unbanning in the first post:

Presently, the OU metagame is stale and the abundance of defensively oriented teams led us to believe that a mixed attacker with great defensive and offensive typing will probably give back some vivacity to the tier.

While Giratina-O is a great counter to popular choices like Landorus-T, most of the OU Pokémon that can really fight against seem to be on the bulkier side. Many offensive Pokémon, such as Mega Gallade, Mega Charizard-Y, Alakazam (regular and Mega), Talonflame, Mega Metagross, Mega Lopunny, Thunderus, and Latios.* Some do have a chance, such as Mega Charizard-X (if it already has a Dragon Dance up) and Garchomp, but it is a small chance.
Many bulky Pokémon do quite well, including Sylveon, Azumarill, Mega Altaria...actually, really, it looks like if you don't have a super effective STAB and you aren't at least neutral to Giratina's, you are kinda screwed.
Hmm...while Giratina-O could work, it does have a very hard hitting set of attacks, both physically and specially, and there are very few Pokémon that can deal with Giratina without a great deal of risk, baring virtually every Fairy in the tier, which seem to be the best counters and checks.
After much thought, unless the suspect test proves me wrong, but I am leaning a little on the side of keeping it in Ubers. I think it is just strong enough to be a major problem. Yes, this post actually shows me changing my mind as I looked at it more closely (as well as putting about half of OU in a damage calc with virtually the same results everytime).

*Yeah, a lot of those are Psychic, but it seems like many of the more aggressive, less bulky attackers in OU are Psychic.

 

[QuickBH]

Yeah it checks those things, but the problem is that it checks those things along with the entire metagame.
I legit don't see how you guys think this is a good idea. It's supposed to be very difficult to stop the meta with 6 mons. That's the point of team building. If we had a team that could stop everything, everyone would just run that team...

It's supposed to be difficult to not have any weaknesses against every single team, but NOT to have an answer for every common threat in the meta-game. With Giratina-O, your team will likely still have ISSUES with common threats like Landorus-I, Charizard Y, Serperior, etc. but it's lack of reliable recovery as well as mediocre speed still makes it able to become whittled down fairly easily and thus you can't just put Giratina-O to check every threat in the meta. You have to pack Pokemon that provide back-up to some of the huge threats and Giratina-O will not just avoid issues with teams all together, it just provides a game-plan to multiple kinds of teams where you would have massive issues otherwise.

If Giratina-O manages to become the overpowered threat it looks on paper and according to this thread after a few days, (it's definitely being overhyped atm) THEN I will become pro ban. Until then, this meta is an absolute blast to play and I actually haven't had enough issues with Giratina-O to the point of me considering it overpowered, let alone broken.

 

[benjamin4321]

And 1 more thing yes giratina-o will get usage percentages not seen since scizor and heatran 4th gen I guess, that doesn't necessarily mean it will overcentralize the meta. Like the heatran in 4th gen it will be a versatile member of any team and acts as a good swiss army knife (offensive, revenge killer, specially defensive etc). It's going to be essentially like a rook in chess, not OP like the queen, but great value does everything at a B+, A- level.

 

[Eievui-Nymphia]

I thought that when I got to Smogon and I saw "ORAS OU Suspect: Ghosts" I thought it was a suspect test of Sablenite (even though it isn't exactly S rank) or Aegislash.

But I actually found out that is a suspect test of Giratina-O.

Personally, I haven't laddered yet in this suspect, but I don't understand how Giratina-O is being suspected to brought back instead of Aegislash.

Actually, I actually find a great idea to retest Uber Pokemon to see if they're actually balance in OU right now. But testing a 680 BST form with Levitate, with enough usage of Ubers, a high viability of A in Ubers, who, even though it's item-restricted his item allows a boost of 20% on his STABs with no drawbacks... Actually, it's not a good idea.

Yes, Kyurem-B is unbanned with 700 BST. But:
1) Kyurem-B has an atrociuos type that not only makes him weak to Stealth Rock, but cause to have almost no type coverage in his STABs. Giratina-OU is neutral to Stealth Rock, inmune to the rest of hazards, has a good type with extra resistances,

2) Kyurem-B only physical Ice type move (this is why Kyurem-B is OU and Kyurem-W is Uber) is Freeze Shock, move that has a turn recharge where the opponent could set up, attack directly, or simply switch out to a Pokemon that resist Ice moves. Even though it could hold a Powrer Herb, it's only one time use and doesn't provide any other benefit to Kyurem-B (and even then, Power Herb set is an usable set on Kyurem-B, unlike the majority of Pokemon).

3) Kyurem-B was low ranked in viability ranks in BW Ubers and unviable in XY Ubers. Giratina-O is A rank in Ubers. If you really want to test Giratina, test Giratina-A who is C rank (and even, it's too much for OU). I know that high viability and/or usage in Ubers ==/== broken in OU) but I think Giratina-O is not an exception.

In general, I think that retesting Giratina-O is a bad idea with legitimate intentions. Maybe I'm surprised but I think Giratina-O is as broken as Mega Lucario.

Personal one: Deleted part of the post because it mentions other suspects.

 

[Atherius]

So after this, can we talk about Aegislash? Maybe Mega Mawile too if we want to make me (and only me) happy? No? Yeah, alright, it was worth a shot.

Anyway, while I've yet to actually test Giratina-O in OU, I do feel like it's going to be an outrageous threat, if not outright broken. While it certainly isn't the strongest threat in OU (most Dragons in OU hit harder and with better coverage), and there are other mons that can break it easily (Sylveon and Mega Gardevoir in particular), I feel like it's the type of Pokemon that simply does too much. 150/100/100 bulk is incredible for OU, and with the added tech of Will-o-Wisp can become nearly unbreakable as a physical wall. While 120/120 offenses aren't the best and it would appreciate the improved damage from Life Orb, the Griseous Orb is a worthy item boosting its STAB moves even further, without the recoil from Life Orb. It's only deficit is in base 90 speed, which will give it some problems. However, I feel that, with its strong bulk, it won't really mind the lack of speed since sweeping isn't its role. Hell, as a wall, a base 90 speed is pretty nice. Reliance on a Cleric doesn't strike me as a problem either; pair it with Heatran and Sylveon for a very sturdy Dragon/Steel/Fairy core. Between it and Heatran, burns will spread across the enemy team like wildfire, while Sylveon works perfectly as a cleric for both, preventing it from being worn down with Toxic. Whether it's broken in OU or not, I can't say, but I do feel like it will become a centralizing factor at a minimum, as it will be almost a demand for any balance or stall team to handle the offensive threats in the current meta.

Also, I'd like to address a lot of the posts claiming "This is great because it checks [insert Pokemon currently considered unbalanced]." It's been stated time and again that Smogon doesn't keep broken things around, and that using broken to check broken is not a good philosophy. Considering bringing a Pokemon in from Ubers solely to counter other potentially broken threats feels like it runs very contrary to the philosophy that has guided suspect tests in the past. Maybe I'm being overly nervous, but I'm worried that the general mindset among many here seems to be excitement over how much Giratina-O can check, while less thought being put into whether Giratina-O is too much to handle with the tools available in OU. Yes, it is a wonderful answer to many threatening things in the current metagame, but I think the last thing we'd want is to introduce another mon that can only be handled by a select few Pokemon.

 

[Costi]

Cmon guys, i'm happy that everyone is happy because the council is starting to suspect ubers, but don't be completely blind in why the decided to test Giratina-o over something else. I red all the thread and, basically, every two posts there is another one who asks why giratina-o and not aegislash or whatever. The OP is clear and many other posts are clear.

The real thing is that the OU environment don't mind if gira-o is ranked A, if it has usage, is giratina-a is ranked lower, if other things are worse in ubers than gira. The real thing is that the ou council analysed the problem, which is the inability to prepare to every single threat and the big team matchup on every match, and they thought to a valid solution to this. They analysed the ubers pokemon and found out who could, probably, make the ou environment better. Is giratina-o such pokemon? I don't know, but don't blame them for choosing it, because, who know, it could be the perfect answer to our problems. Maybe we'll find that gira is unhealthy for this metagame and the council can go on and find some other solutions. I'd say thanks for the try and for this decision, i really really hope that this is what OU needs.

Anyway, sorry for some english mistakes, i didn't pay too much attention and i'm not that good anyway.

Enjoy laddering :]

 

[TheMohZone]

Honestly this doesn't sit right with me.

The meta right now is MegaMeta, MegaEye, Landorous-I and Fairies. but most things have a niche

The Giratina-O Meta is Meta, Eye, and Fairies. and thats it. Giratina-O makes everything else a potential weakness. Its stats aren't the only problem. its the absurd Movepool. It has one of the best movepools in the game, certainly among 680 BST mons.

There are many ubers i wouldn't mind coming down, but Giratina-O is too strong. It will be one of the most centralizing things OU has ever seen (Ironically almost everything above it came this gen but Whatever.)

 

[Firebird Maniac]

So the point seems to be "unban broken stuff to check broken stuff" when since from DPP times as now the suspect politic was "If there's something broken then ban it, even if this balance other broken stuff; suspect them afterwards" so I don't get why now the trend's changed, especially with a threat not properly reasonable to unban.
I'm laughing at all sheeps that said "ban" to Aegi and now "unban" cuz this is quite the same situation (im not referring this to u bluwing dw, u argued several things in this thread)
Metagame's not cool atm yeah as it wasn't before, keep banning stuff that'd be toxic, even if quite sensible in OU, was the thought and it was right (metagame went better) so now what kind of logical points would change the whole thing?
You stated that Landorus-I is really hard to check etc so why don't we just suspect it?

This would be a bad precedent that could allow stuff like Kyu-W Ho-Oh Megaluke and even Skymin back in OU :/

Not saying that I disagree with you, but I am a little ticked off by how you put Ho-Oh, an S ranked Pokemon (and my favorite to use) that terrorizes most of the tier, along with Megaluke whose only real niche died alongside Sticky Web ;)

Cmon guys, i'm happy that everyone is happy because the council is starting to suspect ubers, but don't be completely blind in why the decided to test Giratina-o over something else. I red all the thread and, basically, every two posts there is another one who asks why giratina-o and not aegislash or whatever. The OP is clear and many other posts are clear.

The real thing is that the OU environment don't mind if gira-o is ranked A, if it has usage, is giratina-a is ranked lower, if other things are worse in ubers than gira. The real thing is that the ou council analysed the problem, which is the inability to prepare to every single threat and the big team matchup on every match, and they thought to a valid solution to this. They analysed the ubers pokemon and found out who could, probably, make the ou environment better. Is giratina-o such pokemon? I don't know, but don't blame them for choosing it, because, who know, it could be the perfect answer to our problems. Maybe we'll find that gira is unhealthy for this metagame and the council can go on and find some other solutions. I'd say thanks for the try and for this decision, i really really hope that this is what OU needs.

Anyway, sorry for some english mistakes, i didn't pay too much attention and i'm not that good anyway.

Enjoy laddering :]

I find this argument to be slightly flawed. You're saying that having a Pokemon that checks many things would be a valid solution to "the inability to prepare for every single threat". Well yeah, it would solve said problem, when everybody starts running it, hence creating another problem of over centralization. Now people may argue that "an over centralizing meta would be better than a match-up dependent meta", and that might be true to some extent. But I would call it a matter of opinion, and for the OU with its current concept, neither is ideal.

 

[Slimmer]

Not saying that I disagree with you, but I am a little ticked off by how you put Ho-Oh, an S ranked Pokemon (and my favorite to use) that terrorizes most of the tier, along with Megaluke whose only real niche died alongside Sticky Web ;)

Because Ubers viability rankings don't matter at all with OU tier

 

[NinetyNineNo]

I think the issue boils down to that question -- what is worse, overcentralization or matchup dependency? We got the latter, Aegislash and others have been banned for the former, and Giratina-O will definitely cause it.

 

[pokecole]

It's supposed to be difficult to not have any weaknesses against every single team, but NOT to have an answer for every common threat in the meta-game. With Giratina-O, your team will likely still have ISSUES with common threats like Landorus-I, Charizard Y, Serperior, etc. but it's lack of reliable recovery as well as mediocre speed still makes it able to become whittled down fairly easily and thus you can't just put Giratina-O to check every threat in the meta. You have to pack Pokemon that provide back-up to some of the huge threats and Giratina-O will not just avoid issues with teams all together, it just provides a game-plan to multiple kinds of teams where you would have massive issues otherwise.

If Giratina-O manages to become the overpowered threat it looks on paper and according to this thread after a few days, (it's definitely being overhyped atm) THEN I will become pro ban. Until then, this meta is an absolute blast to play and I actually haven't had enough issues with Giratina-O to the point of me considering it overpowered, let alone broken.

"With Giratina-O, your team will likely still have ISSUES with common threats like Landorus-I, Charizard Y, Serperior, etc. but it's lack of reliable recovery as well as mediocre speed still makes it able to become whittled down fairly easily and thus you can't just put Giratina-O to check every threat in the meta."
?
I don't see at all what any of those pokes can do to giratina-o. What's lando I gonna do? Knock off? E-power? (because that totally hits)
What is Char-Y gonna do? Air slash? Fire Blast? Pffft.
Serperior can kinda do stuff I guess. Leaf storm still won't be doing a ton though.

Also, the issue of lack of recovery isn't really a problem with the crocune set. Hell, you could run resttalk and just beat most things outright. If you're looking at OU teams now, what on these teams is doing anything without getting SEVERELY crippled? And since when does speed matter on a wall or tank? That's like saying zekrom is bad because it only has base 95 speed, or that arceus is bad because scizor has more attack. It's silly.

This is going to completely overcentralize the meta. COMPLETELY. Every team will have 2 or 3 pokemon dedicated to beating giratina, and all of those pokemon are subpar generally or have very simple counters. I don't even want to begin to think of the stupid core that is going to be giratina + heatran. This is a terrible idea.

 

[Plague von Karma]

Woah there, Giratina-O being unbanned? That was unexpected. Not sure if April Fools come early or what xD

To be honest, I'd welcome Giratina-O with open arms - not only is it my favorite Legendary, but it's also one of my favorite defensive 'mons. It'd shake things up a bit too. With a meta full of physical attackers, Giratina-O could probably cause a rebuild because of it's amazing bulk and defenses as well as attack stats. It's a brilliant Pokemon. Also, you couldn't really call it OP either - it's forced to have the Gricious Orb (How do you spell that again?), so you can't slap on an Assault Vest or Leftovers. But that makes it even better on the offense doesn't it?

However, it can cause some major problems - keep in mind that Giratina-O is pretty strong in Ubers when used right. It doesn't have the Legendary Mascot Status for nothing. It may end up causing Over-Centralization and Match-Up Dependency in the metagame, and that is frowned upon. It may become another Aegislash. In addition, it has A LOT of HP and Defensive stats (and offensive). It makes a brilliant meat shield.

Overall I'm all for it. I'd love to see the OU metagame be shook up a bit.