Data ASB Feedback & Game Issues Thread - Mk III

[Dogfish44]

Yah, that rule never left through official means - you only have one viable target, so you target the mon holding you. That said, I'm fairly sure we didn't ever make Heal Pulse fail. I think removing a couple of words from the handbook should resolve this, anyhow.

As for EN, I'd be happy to simply remove the /2. Even without the ruling it's a weaker variant of Fly in a large number of cases.

 

[waterwarrior]

So, Sky Drop should cost the same as Fly, despite it not evading anything in singles?

Hey, when all this is done, we really need to talk about Helping Hand. It's been nerfed several times in the history of ASB and it's even MORE useless than Sky Drop in Singles!

I mean, since apparently we're just judging things by their effectiveness in Singles, we should apply it to everything right?

 

[Elevator Music]

What happened with Pink Bow?).

It's not something I think would be particularly important, but it does bug my OCD that this item doesn't exist? I also think the people that have currently won my badge should switch the Pixie Plate for it (or maybe nah idc).

(For clarification, Pink Bow would be the Fairy-type version of Charcoal/etc.)

 

[Mowtom]

Throwing my support behind the Pink Bow. The fact that it doesn't already exist makes no sense to me.

 

[Frosty]

Yah, that rule never left through official means - you only have one viable target, so you target the mon holding you. That said, I'm fairly sure we didn't ever make Heal Pulse fail. I think removing a couple of words from the handbook should resolve this, anyhow.

As for EN, I'd be happy to simply remove the /2. Even without the ruling it's a weaker variant of Fly in a large number of cases.

Erm...I lost a Gym Battle because of it and me forgeting lightning rod but that is beside the point <_<

The Heal Pulse part is cortesy of me, but it isn't THAT necessary. May be annoying for raids, but oh well.

Anyone mind if I edit stuff to make this work? Assuming it wasn't done already?

As for EN, dunno. Sky Drop isn't really special in singles, but there are many other moves that can be used for the same purpose with similar results (not equal though), so I'd much rather have the EN be based on where that move thrives: doubles+.

Finally for Pink Bow...I'd be more inclined to limit implementation of new items via word of god. My opinion is "I don't care either way", but I suppose if Hidden Power Fairy is a thing, then Fairy Charcoal follows the same logic. But *shrugs*.

What do you guys think? Its_A_Random Dogfish44 Stratos

 

[Dogfish44]

I'm willing to WoG in Pink Bow, so yeah, no problem adding it in :x

 

[Its_A_Random]

I approve but not under the guise of Pink Bow. How about...

Pixie Dust: Increases the damage dealt by all Fairy-type attacks used by the Pokemon by four (4).

Item Type: Held | Cost: 10 CC | Affected Pokemon: All | Max Uses Per Match: - | Trigger: N/A | Nat. Gift Type: N/A | Nat. Gift BAP: N/A

Because what is more Fairy-ish than magical dust that does all sorts of stuff??? n_n

 

[Rainman Legends]

pixie dust sounds like some sort of back alley name for a drug

 

[Birkal]

that's the point ;)

 

[GemOftheDay]

Before Avnomke goes crazy... can we please fix friend guard?

In its current state, it can be stacked for RIDICULOUS amounts of effective defense in brawls and the like.

22:36ASBot_Friend Guard | Type: Passive | Mold Breaker-affected: Yes
22:36ASBot_The Pokemon's body emits an aura of joy that reduces the Base Attack Power of all opponents' attacks in multiple battles by two (2).

All I ask is that we ensure that it only stacks a set number of times, perhaps twice.

 

[AOPSUser]

Are we really trying to balance brawls? lol And besides Friend Guard doesn't help against Flame Burst spam (though it does wonders against EQ!). Besides we can fix Friend Guard in brawls with arenas if we really need to.

With Triples being the highest theoretically competitive mode, and given the number of Triples matches (hint: let's look at Doubles) Friend Guard is not that bad, especially given the mons that have it. You have the all-powerful Vivillon, Jigglypuff, Happiny, and Clefairy to choose from (GREAT for Fire gym isn't it?) and if you want to stack them that's just asking for Skill Swap spam. Especially if you're doing that in Triples.

-4 BAP on all attacks isn't that bad imo given that you're facing shit like Vivillon and Clefairy. If anything it gives Clefairy a tiny niche it couldn't ever have hoped for before.

(also mold breaker)

 

[Mulan15262]

Before Avnomke goes crazy... can we please fix friend guard?

In its current state, it can be stacked for RIDICULOUS amounts of effective defense in brawls and the like.


All I ask is that we ensure that it only stacks a set number of times, perhaps twice.

The pokemon with Friend Guard aren't all that good, though. This is all the pokemon that have Friend Guard (FEs are bolded):
Clefairy, Jigglypuff, Cleffa, Igglybuff, Happiny, Scatterbug, Spewpa, Vivillon

Of those, Vivillon is ranked D, and everything else is ranked E. Most of the pokemon will be a burden that isn't very useful, so stacking those pokemon will cause you to have several team members that aren't doing much beyond Friend Guard, which is a burden on the teammates that are functioning.

 

[Its_A_Random]

At least the brawl will not end in one round hahaha.

Seriously though, while I honestly do not care if this goes through or not, I am not convinced that we should Nerf Friend Guard. And brawls being a nonofficial format in ASB means that I am less likely to care about balancing it, especially given if we were to seriously balance them, there are other things that would need balancing as well.

Also to those who are saying about the viability of their users, things like Role Play exist.

Also god typing on a tablet is so slow -.-'

 

[Dogfish44]

Friend Guard is only powerful when TLR deisgners are being arses. Given that, I see no reason to ban stacking it. Even in standard ASB Formats it's at most a +6 if you manipulate Entrainment and Skill Swap. Given the difficulty, I'm inclined to agree with IAR.

(That said, a Role Play strategy around Vivillon could be an interesting brawlspam trick...)

 

[Its_A_Random]

Hmmm I think we should do something about Protect combinations.

You know, things like Protect + Wide Guard, Protect + Reflect, and Protect + Light Screen. Sure they are huge energy sinks but I think that in Doubles/Triples—Triples in particular—they are perhaps too good despite the generally steep cost. You are: Preventing your whole team from taking damage save Feint (the support moves extend the target range to whole party), supporting your whole team in the case of screens, and while taking no damage, the user's allies can also attack. There is also little counterplay to this as well, only either the choice of using setup moves or draining the energy of the Pokémon using the combination, and this is especially given the fact that you can use these combinations ordering first and have little repercussions other than a possible Energy KO but that means little if the mon using it is low on HP and/or EN hahaha (and if it is Triples, that En KO effect has less ramifications since its 2v3 for one more action). Also there is faster Pokémon using Snatch for screens I guess but that is kinda offset by simply being faster.

In my humble opinion I think we should deal with this—assuming enough people think its a big enough issue—by changing Protect's CT to None. This way, we effectively ban them and basically not have to deal with crazy combinations involving Protect again.

What do you guys think?

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Personally I like protect+screens/safeguard (no wide guard that's dumb) from a singles perspective, extending the protect effect to allies seems really weird to me? I'd rather it just be clear that you can only ever protect yourself from damage. The only Mon that should be protecting its teammates is brokeninja with may block and that's already ridiculous. So my vote is to emphasize or add a line that protect only blocks damage to the self

 

[Frosty]

I also feel that those combos only protect the user. That is how I've reffed that. Making that explicit should be enough IMO. Banning those combos altogether would be a bit too much.

And I also really like Protect + Screens/Safeguard. Adds an interesting strategic element to the table.

 

[Its_A_Random]

Yeah that seems fine. The main element that niggles me is the protect the whole team shit so I suppose that is fine.

But that is not what I am posting about. I am posting about Greninja. More:

Pruned Log

[00:57] <@Texas> tbh iar
[00:57] <@Texas> gold and p2d are beating us
[00:57] <@Texas> purely because
[00:57] <@Texas> greninja is broken
[00:57] <@~Its_A_Random> yeah lol hahaha fuck that thing imo
[00:58] <@Texas> it's actually hilarious
[00:58] <@~Its_A_Random> and you wonder why
[00:58] <@~Its_A_Random> I called it skill frog
[00:58] <@Texas> like i was thinking earlier
[00:58] <@~Its_A_Random> *call
[00:58] <@Texas> it's the one thing we could ban for the same reason as competitive
[00:58] <@Texas> and be totally justified
[00:58] <@Texas> type changing is that powerful
[00:58] <@Texas> +mat block and shit
[00:58] <Maxim_6> noooooo
[00:58] <Maxim_6> not my Kecleon, ban Sableye first imo
[00:59] <@Texas> like I don't think we should be banning shit in asb as a general rule
[00:59] <@Texas> but i've never not seen that thing take over a match
[00:59] <@Texas> and banning it from gyms+tourneys
[00:59] <@Texas> wouldbe a very very positive thing
[00:59] <@Texas> imo
[00:59] <Maxim_6> just Greninja or Protean in general?
[00:59] <@Texas> greninja
[00:59] <@~Its_A_Random> least I took the liberty of making protean have no effect in my gym
[00:59] <@~Its_A_Random> and its still good
[00:59] <@elevator_music> you could probably just make rare candy/everstone
[01:00] <@elevator_music> only boost the pokemon's original typing
[01:00] <@elevator_music> i mean "poor castform" sry maxim but
[01:00] <@Texas> disagree
[01:00] <@~Its_A_Random> k back to approving this guy
[01:00] <@Texas> yeah that's a nice extra damage per turn
[01:00] <@Texas> but it's the type manipulation+solid stats+good movepool
[01:00] <@Texas> that pushes it over the edge
[01:00] <@Texas> rare candy is just a cherry
[01:01] <@~Its_A_Random> !asbstats darumaka
[01:01] <@elevator_music> eh
[01:01] <@~Its_A_Random> and you wonder why I deliberately took rank 4 water/dark
[01:01] <@~Its_A_Random> and deliberately gave the grens suboptimal items and natures
[01:01] <@~Its_A_Random> well they are more troll stats
[01:01] <@elevator_music> idk, i think there has to be a better way to deal with it than "ban"
[01:01] <@~Its_A_Random> *strats
[01:01] <@Texas> like i said as a general rule i dont think we should be banning things
[01:02] <Maxim_6> I'm surprised we haven't banned Mewtwo yet
[01:02] <@Texas> but if there's one thing that we'd be justified in doing so
[01:02] <@Texas> it's absolutely gren
[01:02] <@~Its_A_Random> mewtwo is good but
[01:02] <@Texas> something we should at least consider anyway
[01:02] <@~Its_A_Random> its not that great
[01:02] <@~Its_A_Random> sure it pulverised my gym
[01:02] <@~Its_A_Random> but
[01:02] <@~Its_A_Random> my fault for using psychic weakes
[01:02] <@~Its_A_Random> weaks
[01:02] <Ullar> mewtwo is available now?
[01:02] <Ullar> boss
[01:02] <@~Its_A_Random> nah
[01:03] <@~Its_A_Random> birkal won one
[01:03] <@~Its_A_Random> though mod abuse
[01:03] <Maxim_6> in a tourney
[01:03] <Maxim_6> just like how I'm going to win a Regigigas in this tournament!
[01:04] <@Texas> volcanion so cool
[01:04] <@Texas> even if it's movepool is garb
[01:04] <Maxim_6> though I'm really wishing I had grabbed Mega Salamence for the Tourney instead of Mega Metagross
---
[01:09] <@~Its_A_Random> hmmm
[01:09] <@~Its_A_Random> maybe we should
[01:09] <@~Its_A_Random> open a discussion or something
[01:09] <@~Its_A_Random> to nerf greninja
---
[01:12] <Maxim_6> If Greninja gets nerfed, I don't want Kecleon getting too badly nerfed
[01:13] <Maxim_6> otherwise it's going to be Parental Bond Nerf all over again
[01:13] <@~Its_A_Random> rare candy nerf will be the best route to take
[01:13] <Maxim_6> I mean come on! the Parental Bond nerf made Kangaskhan unusable in my gym! :P
[01:13] <@~Its_A_Random> to avoid collateral damage
[01:14] <Maxim_6> mm
[01:15] <Maxim_6> even then you get collateral damage in the form of Castform
[01:15] <Maxim_6> and Kecleon to a lesser extent
[01:15] <Maxim_6> maybe just make it so it doesn't boost the STAB of Protean Pokemon? :/
[01:19] <@Texas> !asbmove helping hand
[01:19] <@~Its_A_Random> maxim
[01:19] <@~Its_A_Random> rare candy does not affect
[01:19] <Maxim_6> another crazy option might be to make a new Signature Item for Protean Pokemon
[01:19] <@~Its_A_Random> those mons
[01:19] <Maxim_6> oh
[01:19] <@~Its_A_Random> it does affect gren
[01:20] <Maxim_6> oh just rare candy?
[01:20] <Maxim_6> thought that was including Everstone as well, my bad
[01:22] <Avnomke> holy hell that combo does 67.5
[01:22] <Maxim_6> :D
[01:22] <Avnomke> wow
[01:23] <Maxim_6> and just in case I miscalced somewhere, Life Orb on your end should seal the deal
[01:24] <+Rainman_Legends> IMO rare candy should not give the +2 BAP for protean Pokemon
[01:24] <+Rainman_Legends> Same with estone
[01:24] <Avnomke> tbh that's kinda overkill hahaha
[01:25] <Avnomke> I wouldn't object to that change
[01:25] <+Rainman_Legends> It's balances out the offensive power without overly nerfing it
[01:25] <Maxim_6> nevah! Protean Kecleon will finally make my gym powerful
[01:25] <Maxim_6> all shall fall before me!@
[01:25] <+Rainman_Legends> Because getting +5 BAP from STAB+RC/ES is ridiculous
[01:25] <@elevator_music> lol
[01:25] <@~Its_A_Random> just hit rc
[01:25] <@~Its_A_Random> dont hit estone
[01:26] <Avnomke> also protean should probably cost some en for type changes O.O
[01:26] <@elevator_music> theyre already inconsistent anyways
[01:26] <@~Its_A_Random> shop kec isnt the problem
[01:26] <@~Its_A_Random> skill frog is
[01:26] <Avnomke> not just have no STAB en reduction hahaha
[01:26] <@~Its_A_Random> that already happens
[01:26] <Avnomke> also would make there be a point in disabling protean
[01:26] <Avnomke> ik iar
[01:27] <Avnomke> but it should probably cost another 3-5 en to change types, like every other type-changing effect

Basically some of us think Greninja is too good (especially in Doubles/Triples) due to a combination of factors ranging from Protean to Rare Candy to dumb support like Mat Block and that. One of the proposed nerfs is to hit Rare Candy in some way so that Greninja does not get a +2 from every attack on top of the SpA boost. There are other ways we could do this like hitting Mat Block as discussed ITT a few pages ago. There was also a Greninja ban proposed but lol we are not going to do that hahahahaha. We could also hit Protean but that has collateral damage since Kecleon is not the issue.

One could argue it is a kneejerk reaction to being at the jaws of defeat in a tournament match but everyone hates ordering against Greninja so I guess it is justified.

But yeah should we nerf Greninja in some way or is it fine as it is?

 

[Rainman Legends]

IMO the removal of the +2 BAP from Rare Candy to Protean Pokemon and making mat block somewhat similar to ingame usage would be enough to nerf greninja. Or we can just make it so that when ordering firsts against greninja you get 5 subs.

 

[Maxim]

I've seldom faced off against Greninja, but I can agree that it's probably pretty bad. I just want to make sure it doesn't hurt any other Pokemon. Just Greninja.

I mostly agree with Rainman Legends here, save for the 5 Subs part.

 

[TSRD]

Fine as is IMO, but then I seem to be on the "lets not ban/nerf everything" side all the time anyway (see Para/Freeze) so I'm sure that surprises none.

As for "everyone" hating to order vs it.... So? "Everyone" hates Sableye, Mega Gengar, Mega Garde, ect, ect... too. It's a strong mon but hardly any more than any other top tier IMO.

 

[Avnomke]

From experience using Greninja, I can say that it is really easy to fuck somebody over going second, between Mat Block, DE, type-changing shenanigans, and brute force.

I would support any combination of these:

• No RC boost from protean type changes
  
• Bonus en cost to protean type changes
  
• Mat Block only works the first round Greninja comes out onto the field (like in-game)
  
• Bonus subs when ordering first against Protean mons? idk this sounds a little silly but it's like forewarn I guess hahaha

Pretty much, Protean is the problem, and even though removing it screws Greninja, it's kinda hard what with super fast taunt and DE moves. And even Role Play for Skill Swap.

Also, Greninja is probably worse to order first against than those pokemon TSRD, just because you'll always lose the damage race, hard. And that's another thing about Grennja- used well, it wins (almost) every damage race, because you can't hit it SE going first (unless the user lets you for some odd reason).

 

[tavok]

IMO, Mat Block should be the first thing we should hit as it is absurd right now.

After that, if we think Greninja is OP, taking away the benefit from Rare Candy should tone it down a little. But make sure it is the right thing to do.

 

[TSRD]

Also, Greninja is probably worse to order first against than those pokemon TSRD, just because you'll always lose the damage race, hard. And that's another thing about Grennja- used well, it wins (almost) every damage race, because you can't hit it SE going first (unless the user lets you for some odd reason).

Its defenses are nothing special (usually 2/3) so a strong neutral hit will hurt it pretty easily and you can stop it from hitting you SE too (just use attacks that hurt it if it attacks you SE). Combined with its limited move pool (who said its movepool is good? Seriously? Hidden power is a must on it because it has nothing to use for alot of types and frankly it would love to have 3x hidden power because it needs the coverage) and it's hardly impossible to play around. Disable/Torment its good attacking move vs you and you're doing well, never mind mons who have alot more options. It's fast but Sableye and Gengar "outspeed" it and they can all get around taunt with Magic Coat anyway. Of course it can still fight back against that but that doesn't make it too good, just competitive.

 

[Gale Wing Srock]

Yeah, lets Nerf Mat Block first and see if Greninja is still OP. Then we can visit the Rare Candy's effect.