Gen 1 RBY UU - Tier Discussion and Evaluation v2

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M Dragon

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BL is not a playable tier, it is a banlist.
BL should basically be what is not good enough to be OU but it is too good for UU.
Lets discuss about UU instead of a banlist.
What could be a good idea is making a tournament with every BL mon allowed and start banning the most broken things to BL (aka like assuming there is no BL)

1. I think we need to decide where the OU cut-off is. There's widespread agreement that Alakazam, Chansey, Exeggutor, Gengar, Golem, Jynx, Lapras, Rhydon, Slowbro, Snorlax, Starmie, Tauros and Zapdos are OU. That's 13 at the very least. Then there's the wrappers (Cloyster, Dragonite, Victreebel) and Articuno, Jolteon, Persian that all have varying degrees of at least decent support.
Cloyster and Dragonite are clearly OU (cloy even with clamp banned).
Jolteon is also clearly OU, I don't think that anybody that plays RBY can doubt the power of the electrics (even if Zapdos is better).
The other 3 are not that clear, but I would say they should all 3 be OU maybe (but Vic, but thats subjective).
 
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In relation to Ortheore's post, I agree that the main issue of BL is that it's too large for a banlist. The reality is that the current BL Pokemon are basically a class above the UUs. You can argue that all the BLs would be broken in UU as much as that none of them would be at all. So in a way, UU could've ended up just as how BL is right now and it would be alright, without even needing an actual BL tier.

But for me it's fine anyway. I like UU as it is now.
 

Isa

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The 2K10 BL is designed to be a playable tier in it's own right, regardless of naming convention. The PO BL follows that line of logic.

Edit: I'd like to say though that this is honestly a very poor timing to decide upon new tier lists. Only yesterday, PO introduced the new mechanics to us (re: paralysis/stat changes) and it is my belief that it'll heavily influence the way we play the game, moreso than the Body Slam mechanics. If we're gonna change tiers, this is not the right time.
 
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Oglemi

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Overall I get the feel that we should adopt the rby2k10/PO tier list for BL/UU, which I'm cool with, despite the incongruity of the BL tier's actual functions/definitions.

I'll be placing Articuno, Jolteon and Victreebel into OU.

We can look into the tier further down the line in regards to reclassification or actual BL testing, right now I'd rather have an accurate representation of what's being played.
 

Joim

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I'm lazy, give me the tiering list and I'll update PS today to meet the criteria (and add challenge options).
 
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Isa

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http://rby2k10.proboards.com/thread/273/official-tier-thread

A (+) marker after an entry indicates that it may be outclassed in its tier due to a lack of (effective) uniqueness.

Uber

Mew
Mewtwo

OverUsed

Alakazam
Articuno
Chansey
Exeggutor
Gengar
Golem
Jolteon
Jynx
Lapras
Persian
Rhydon
Slowbro
Snorlax
Starmie
Tauros
Zapdos

BorderLine

Clefable
Cloyster
Dodrio
Dragonite
Dugtrio
Gyarados
Haunter
Hypno
Kadabra
Kangaskhan
Moltres
Mr. Mime
Nidoking
Nidoqueen (+)
Raichu
Tentacruel
Venusaur
Victreebel

UnderUsed

Arcanine (+)
Blastoise
Charizard
Dewgong
Electabuzz
Golduck
Graveler
Kabutops
Kingler
Ninetales (+)
Pinsir
Poliwhirl (+)
Poliwrath
Porygon
Raticate
Sandslash
Tangela
Vaporeon
Venomoth

NeverUsed

Aerodactyl
Arbok
Beedrill
Butterfree
Ditto
Electrode
Farfetch'd
Fearow
Flareon
Golbat
Hitmonchan
Hitmonlee
Lickitung
Machamp
Magmar
Magneton
Marowak
Muk
Omastar
Onix
Parasect
Pidgeot
Primeape
Rapidash
Scyther
Seadra
Seaking
Vileplume
Weezing
Wigglytuff
(All NFEs not previously listed)
 

Isa

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Yeah 2k10 only has a Wrapless list. Dnite and Cloy deserve ou as well with Wrap moves.
 
That's the wrapless one, correct ? (i.e. Dragonite and Vic)
Yeah, you nailed it I guess: this is considering no-wrap, as RBY 2k10 used to be against their use.
So, this is the first huge incorrect thing: using a tierlist based on a different ruling.
In second place we can make a case for Jolteon being OU, but Persian and even more Articuno are not.

Funny thing is that Victreebel struggles more in BL than in OU (where it does struggle, but is threatening at least), and putting it in BL is somehow still agreeable.
 

Mr.E

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BL should basically be what is not good enough to be OU but it is too good for UU.
Historically, when tiers were actual tiers and not usage lists, it was rather the opposite. BL stuff was largely thought of as mons that were viable in OU, yet not seen often. e.g. Persian may not strictly be "overused" but it can be successful enough in OU battles that nobody should laugh at you for using it. That's why old-gen BL lists are so bloated, they're not actually a UU banlist as we treat it these days. Everything "viable" (in OU) but not actually used regularly is BL.

Modern day, of course, Persian and a lot of that other shit would just be UU. Then they might be moved up to BL based on how badly they tore up a hypothetical UU metagame.

And with Clamp banned I don't think Cloyster is worth jack shit. I mean, I hardly think it's usable even with Clamp but at least being able to dick with slowmons makes it kinda useful when you scare Tauros away the one time you get to do it. Does Cloyster do anything else but maybe get to Explode something?
 
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Historically, when tiers were actual tiers and not usage lists, it was rather the opposite. BL stuff was largely thought of as mons that were viable in OU, yet not seen often. Practically speaking, the difference between those two lists are minuscule to zero but I just wanted to point it out. e.g. Persian may not strictly be "overused" but it can be successful enough in OU battles that nobody should laugh at you for using it.

And with Clamp banned I don't think Cloyster is worth jack shit. I mean, I hardly think it's usable even with Clamp but at least being able to dick with slowmons makes it kinda useful when you scare Tauros away the one time you get to do it. Does Cloyster do anything else but maybe get to Explode something?
Cloyster is scary in BL even without Clamp, so it would be banned from BL, hence OU: only bad MU it has, are against electrics* (and we are moving Jolteon to OU). Somebody is arguing about Articuno being OU; Cloyster can wall it and explode.

*and Venusaur?
 

Joim

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So yeah when there's a wrap metagame tiering decided I will update it. I don't want to change it many times.
As for my personal opinion:

Dragonite OU
Cloyster OU
Persian OU
Fire Spinners BL
Victreebel BL
 
I personally think Victreebel is rather OU(-worthy) than Persian, which is why I would not agree with that.
As for Fire Spinners: First I want to admit that I never played RBY UU and therefore I might be wrong with the following. As it presents itself to mee UU is Full of bulky waters or Amnesia-Users from that type, which is why I wouldn't even consider the Fire Spinners BL because they might not achieve all that much due to that and due to Fire SPin being a very unreliable and weak move.
That being said, my personal opinion is that somehow we should not just adapt the list fron PO/2k10, because i think it would be more intersting to really consider BL as a banlist for UU instead of a tier, and thus forming a different UU from those lists. People can play the UU as they know it on several other platforms.
 
Lusch I've got limited experience with the listed UU tier and I can tell you that your assumptions are correct, UU is dominated by water types. Kingler, Golduck, Poliwrath are all top threats, while Vaporeon is another strong choice. In my experience teams would often stack water types. This leaves stuff like Charizard opportunities against Tangela, Venomoth and pretty much nothing else. Even with Fire Spin, it's hard to see Fire types thriving in an environment at all similar to the one that currently exists.

Edit: I actually like the thought of developing new tiers, especially if people are really adamant against treating BL as a playable meta, so here are some random thoughts:
Jolteon- Does anyone disagree that this is OU?
Dragonite- Clearly OU.

The other ones (Cloy/Bel/Cuno/Persian) are much more open to debate, and even though I recently argued that they should be OU over on pokemon perfect, I'm actually leaning the other way on some of them now.

Persian I'm thinking can drop from OU. I mean in theory it's got that revenge killing/cleaning role, but I just find it so underwhelming. Its damage output is kind of meh. Tauros comparisons are obvious, and compared to Tauros' crit rate and more importantly Hyper Beam, Persian just underwhelms. Persian's inadequate bulk is another massive turnoff, since all you really need to stop it from sweeping is two pokemon that can live a single Slash (or one that can live two), since just about everything 2HKOs the cat. Maybe I've just been playing it wrong in terms of what stage of the game I start bringing it in, but yeah its drawbacks just aren't worth it imo.

Victreebel on the other hand, belongs in OU imo. Yes, it's a pain in the arse to build a team around it and find opportunities for it, but when you give it that opportunity it absolutely terrorises a lot of teams. Especially when you consider how many teams rely on slow pokemon in the midgame. With the standard team being Lead/Chansey/Lax/Egg/Tauros/??? you're really not seeing anything fast in the midgame unless it's in that free slot, since the lead takes sleep and Tauros is saved for lategame. That means Bel can do a lot of damage.

Cuno and Cloy I'm a little undecided on- they're both incredibly useful defensively, but with every water type in existence walling them until the end of time, there's a lot of matchups where they simply don't accomplish anything beyond soaking up a couple hits. Otherwise they're legit, Chansey is annoying but they're both capable of applying enough pressure for that not to be a total buzzkill

Check in with me tomorrow and I'll probably have completely different opinions and I suspect people will disagree with Bel>Cuno/Cloy, but whatever
 
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froggy25

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Yep, UU is water. UU is pretty much like this from the few battles I had:

Venomoth / Tangela
Electabuzz
Golduck / Poliwrath
Vaporeon / 2nd Amnesier
Sandslash / Graveler
[6th slot] (often Raticate / Kingler)

Electabuzz looks like the top-tier. Is there a lot of room for team building in RBY UU ?
 
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Texas Cloverleaf

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Why is aerodactyl NU? Its viable in OU as a snorlax counter so it's surprising that it wouldn't be viable in UU at least (sky attack crits mmm). More of a curiosity question than anything
 

Isa

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texas just because i gave a team to you with aero doesnt mean its ou/uu worthy im sorry.
 
5/6 of your typical UU team is either a water-type, a electric-type or graveler. That's why. Plus Sky Attack is not better than a 70 bp move all things considered.
 
Lusch I've got limited experience with the listed UU tier and I can tell you that your assumptions are correct, UU is dominated by water types. Kingler, Golduck, Poliwrath are all top threats, while Vaporeon is another strong choice. In my experience teams would often stack water types. This leaves stuff like Charizard opportunities against Tangela, Venomoth and pretty much nothing else. Even with Fire Spin, it's hard to see Fire types thriving in an environment at all similar to the one that currently exists.

Edit: I actually like the thought of developing new tiers, especially if people are really adamant against treating BL as a playable meta, so here are some random thoughts:
Jolteon- Does anyone disagree that this is OU?
Dragonite- Clearly OU.

The other ones (Cloy/Bel/Cuno/Persian) are much more open to debate, and even though I recently argued that they should be OU over on pokemon perfect, I'm actually leaning the other way on some of them now.

Persian I'm thinking can drop from OU. I mean in theory it's got that revenge killing/cleaning role, but I just find it so underwhelming. Its damage output is kind of meh. Tauros comparisons are obvious, and compared to Tauros' crit rate and more importantly Hyper Beam, Persian just underwhelms. Persian's inadequate bulk is another massive turnoff, since all you really need to stop it from sweeping is two pokemon that can live a single Slash (or one that can live two), since just about everything 2HKOs the cat. Maybe I've just been playing it wrong in terms of what stage of the game I start bringing it in, but yeah its drawbacks just aren't worth it imo.

Victreebel on the other hand, belongs in OU imo. Yes, it's a pain in the arse to build a team around it and find opportunities for it, but when you give it that opportunity it absolutely terrorises a lot of teams. Especially when you consider how many teams rely on slow pokemon in the midgame. With the standard team being Lead/Chansey/Lax/Egg/Tauros/??? you're really not seeing anything fast in the midgame unless it's in that free slot, since the lead takes sleep and Tauros is saved for lategame. That means Bel can do a lot of damage.

Cuno and Cloy I'm a little undecided on- they're both incredibly useful defensively, but with every water type in existence walling them until the end of time, there's a lot of matchups where they simply don't accomplish anything beyond soaking up a couple hits. Otherwise they're legit, Chansey is annoying but they're both capable of applying enough pressure for that not to be a total buzzkill

Check in with me tomorrow and I'll probably have completely different opinions and I suspect people will disagree with Bel>Cuno/Cloy, but whatever
Jolteon is OU after the metagame shifted towards electrics as rocks dropped. It wasn't, let's say, 4 months ago.

If you want to drop Persian, I think it's blatant: you're the guy who used it the most I guess. One big overlooked flaw is that its moveset sucks and it can be chained switched a lot more easily than Tauros. Slash can't threaten the damage output and 30% paralysis that Body Slam from Tauros does. Outspeeding Tauros is something, at least.

About Victreebel, teams are becoming faster now. Anyways, putting it in BL would not hurt anybody.

Cloyster can't be BL: the next BL thing to get access to Explosion is Graveler. In OU it's arguabily the best at taking out paralyzed Starmie (not that you want to explode on para'd Starmie with every team, all the time, but...) and we all know Explosion is very valuable.

That's fine if that's so, I'm curious as to the reasoning for why that is
Narrow moveset: it lacks ground moves that I suppose it gets in later gens, and doesn't even get access to Rock Slide.
Electabuzz Thunderbolt vs. Aerodactyl: 256-302 (70.5 - 83.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

In OU it has that niche vs standard PhysLax, but Snorlax Blizzard vs. Aerodactyl: 182-214 (50.1 - 58.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO and Tauros does even more (and CH Blizzard being KO is part of the reason why GolDon have always been a little bit below Starmie, Lapras and Alakazam)
 
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