The quote nominates Porygon2, not Porygon-Z. I can understand the misinterpretation between the two, but keep in mind that they are two entirely different Pokemon.
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ORAS UU Viability Ranking Thread M2
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Yeah Cress can do a lot more than wall and that's why its A+
Screw it Im make a small list
Lunar Dance
Calm Mind
Has great speed for a wall
Levitate
Can run leftys
Psycho Shift
Uh,,,,,,,
I agree with Lunar Dance, but Calm Mind (and other bulk boosters) are run on walls of all sorts, like CM Florges and Curselax. I agree that it is much speedier than other walls, but tbh it's speed isn't extremely important for anything other than quick substitute to avoid status. Levitate has nothing to do with it's walling capabilities, it's not like weezing, who relies on it's ground immunity to wall. Plus, you say it can do "more than wall", and Levitate isn't really doing anything. Levitate doesnt allow for any additional role on a team, other than helping its walling capabilities. Running Lefties also increases its walling capabilities, not adding another possible role on a team, which is what your post's point suggests, again in "more than wall". Not to mention nearly every good wall in UU runs lefties, barring the aforementioned Porygon-2, who gives up passive recovery for extreme increases in bulk.
Oh, and Psycho Shift Cress is shit.
I comparing it to porygon two pls read
I also agree with the suggestion to unrank mega-steelix.
It's one niche of checking volt-turn is pretty unreliable at best considering the main users of the move can 2HKO even a max/max specially defensive spread. You're not stopping either heliolisk or rotom-h from volt switching. You need to make sure mega-ampharos is the defensive spread and not the offensive one with focus blast. Rotom-C burns you to leave you crippled for the rest of the match. The only mons you're truly stopping from volt-switching are defensive mega-amph (good), jolteon (who is garbage enough and easily stopped by other bulky ground types), and galvantula (And I'm not even sure this runs volt-switch on the suicide SW lead anyways).
That's just not enough of a good niche over mega-Aggron to justify its use.
It's one niche of checking volt-turn is pretty unreliable at best considering the main users of the move can 2HKO even a max/max specially defensive spread. You're not stopping either heliolisk or rotom-h from volt switching. You need to make sure mega-ampharos is the defensive spread and not the offensive one with focus blast. Rotom-C burns you to leave you crippled for the rest of the match. The only mons you're truly stopping from volt-switching are defensive mega-amph (good), jolteon (who is garbage enough and easily stopped by other bulky ground types), and galvantula (And I'm not even sure this runs volt-switch on the suicide SW lead anyways).
That's just not enough of a good niche over mega-Aggron to justify its use.
Ok Imma jump in here as I have used Mega Steelix before with pretty great success (albeit pre-Celebi/Jirachi/Starmie rise).
Mega Steelix should stay where its at and here are some reasons why:
tl;dr Keep Mega Steelix in C, as it is a good Pokemon with decent qualities over Mega Aggron who otherwise may outclass it.
Mega Steelix should stay where its at and here are some reasons why:
- Volt Switch / Electric immunity allowing VoltTurn strategies to be shut down all with one Pokemon
- STAB Earthquake to hit a lot of things neutrally that may try to switch into Heavy Slam
- Decent bulk despite the lack of Filter, allowing it to still take some hits
- A good check to SandDoge teams thanks to Sand Force (not that big of a point tbh)
- Can still check the same things Mega Aggron does such as Mega Aerodactyl, Mega Beedrill, Crobat, etc.
- ~1.87x Heavier which means Heavy Slam hits a lot more targets
- Filter
- Base 50 Speed > Mega Steelix's base 30 Speed
- No Water weakness
- Thunder Wave
- Grass resistance
tl;dr Keep Mega Steelix in C, as it is a good Pokemon with decent qualities over Mega Aggron who otherwise may outclass it.
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The new scald mechanics really help mega lix out, as the opponents bulky water could sometimes eliminate themselves, and that's all that really prevents Steelix from walling / killing the opponents team.
While Scald has that debilitating drawback in UU now, Suicune can still reliably run Surf and still has great physical bulk when invested (which it mostly is). Keep Suicune in S.
Yeah but now banded dragons can come in pretty safley. A lot of physical attackers can come in safely and set up or wither it down. Hreat pokemon but it lost a niche in the meta. You can still run scald but its high risk imo
I don't know if this has been discussed yet, but I'd like to bring it up.
Pangoro B->B or something higher :p
Pangoro, with it's newfound access to STAB Knock Off and Drain Punch, has become one of the best wallbreakers or even setup-sweepers in the tier. You can run a CB set with it's access to Gunk Shot and murder fairies, or you can run SD/Taunt which taunts and sets up on lots of the walls in the meta, namely Vaporeon, Alomomola, Blissey, and friends. I'd highly suggest moving this thing up in rank. EDIT BUT NOT REALLY EDIT BECAUSE I HAVEN'T CLICKED POST YET: SD no taunt is outclassed by SD Gatr :(
Pangoro B->B or something higher :p
Pangoro, with it's newfound access to STAB Knock Off and Drain Punch, has become one of the best wallbreakers or even setup-sweepers in the tier. You can run a CB set with it's access to Gunk Shot and murder fairies, or you can run SD/Taunt which taunts and sets up on lots of the walls in the meta, namely Vaporeon, Alomomola, Blissey, and friends. I'd highly suggest moving this thing up in rank. EDIT BUT NOT REALLY EDIT BECAUSE I HAVEN'T CLICKED POST YET: SD no taunt is outclassed by SD Gatr :(
10/10 absolutely comparing to Porygon2
Lets not move up or down mons based of the new Scald mechanics, as it is most likely an April Fools joke
yep, it is, so disregard everything revolving around Scald mechanics (was it actually happening when PS had the bad sprites?)
As far as I know, no Scald-related deaths have occurred during the period of aids sprites
I will have you know those sprites were very good and someone worked very hard to upgrade the shit sprites Gamefreak has provided imho they should be standard on showdown
I also support P2 for A+ or At least A rank. The fact that it walls the most threatening sweepers, including but not limited to M-Aero, Salamence, Gatr, M-Pidgeot AND has 16 PP recovery move is amazing. Slap a Crobat, Whimsicott, or Nidoqueen to eat those CCs and you have a nice core
Although it doesn't exactly wall a plus 2 gatr or hone class aero I agree p2 needs some more love
Tangrowth B- > B
Tangrowth is, I think, sort of a wall. It has extremely good physical defense, but it's special defense is just....uh.......anyway, if used correctly, this thing can be a monster. It can patch up it's weak special defense with AV. It can put you to sleep and Leech Seed you into oblivion. It has Regenerator. I use this thing a lot, and it works.
Tangrowth is, I think, sort of a wall. It has extremely good physical defense, but it's special defense is just....uh.......anyway, if used correctly, this thing can be a monster. It can patch up it's weak special defense with AV. It can put you to sleep and Leech Seed you into oblivion. It has Regenerator. I use this thing a lot, and it works.
dammit aim you changed the 4th gen sprites into 6th gen ones too ;_;
Also, I wanna nominate Feraligatr to S rank. It's so fucking strong in this metagame even with Scald running around that many of us are considering this to be almost broken. Its speed may hold it back a tad bit, but its combination of bulk, sheer power, and sufficient coverage makes this thing not very easy to revenge kill and an overall powerhouse in this metagame. Now, I acknowledge that many of us are also placing Pidgeot into that same category of "almost broken", but unlike bird Jesus, it's really hard to counter Gatr and unless you can find some intelligent way to prevent it from setting up or something (which it has MANY opportunities to do), then shit is gonna get torn apart and SOMBOHDY GONNA DIE, LITERALLY.
In regards to scald, I honestly believe that scald is less of an argument against this because if your bulky water doesn't end up burning Gatr, regardless of whether or not it carries Substitute (Gatr is faster than every Scald user, except max speed mega blastoise), then you're even more royally screwed than you were before you decided to switch your bulky water in with hopes to cripple it.
Feraligatr deserves this nom more than anything else, because obviously IT'S GATR TIME.
I'd like to nominate Slowking from A- to A. Slowking is being a great mon in this meta. I have been playing with it since Serperior ban and I say it can effectivelly work in many different roles, as a physical wall, win condition and wallbreaking.
My personal favorite is CM Slowking. With Regenerator, 95/80/110 defenses and a good type in Psyshic/Water, it can come in dozens of physical attackers, fearing nothing from the likes of Entei, Aero, Mienshao and even some Heracross sets. It can also easily setups on non-Roar Suicune and another dozens of Sp. Walls. Psyshock/Scald is good coverage, while also hiting both Def and SpDef sides. After a single CM, Slowking is able to tank most of non-STAB super effective hits (and some STAB SE too!) and retaliate back. Slack Off also helps him tank non-STAB Knock Offs better, healing in the same turn and taking less damage from then.
Slowking can also run other sets. TR NP Slowking is devastating good, shitting all over offense. AV King with Psyshock/Scald/GK/Dtail can effectively counter Cune: you can GK until it rests, than just phaze him out, making it harder to come back while sleeping without boosts. It also hits hard while being able to come back in several times thanks, again, to Regenerator. Btw, Regenerator is the main thing why Slowking (and other mons like Tangrowth) are so good right now. UU have a lack of physical defensive walls with reliable recovery and P2 (with Recover), Slowking and Tangrowth are coming off as great solutions to this, imo.
Speaking of CM Slowking views, because it's the King that i have most experience with, I'd say it can check, counters and/or setups on 2 of 3 S Rank mons, 7 of 9 A+, 6 of 16 A Rank (while 4 can't really switch in) and 9 of 13 A-, which is great.
It doesn't like opposing Electric, Grass or Dark types, and status, specially poison, so you might want to have some cleric support and partners to cover his weakness.
Here are some calcs that should help this nom:
I can manage to take some replays, if necessary. Also, this is my first nom so pls tell me if I did something wrong.
My personal favorite is CM Slowking. With Regenerator, 95/80/110 defenses and a good type in Psyshic/Water, it can come in dozens of physical attackers, fearing nothing from the likes of Entei, Aero, Mienshao and even some Heracross sets. It can also easily setups on non-Roar Suicune and another dozens of Sp. Walls. Psyshock/Scald is good coverage, while also hiting both Def and SpDef sides. After a single CM, Slowking is able to tank most of non-STAB super effective hits (and some STAB SE too!) and retaliate back. Slack Off also helps him tank non-STAB Knock Offs better, healing in the same turn and taking less damage from then.
Slowking can also run other sets. TR NP Slowking is devastating good, shitting all over offense. AV King with Psyshock/Scald/GK/Dtail can effectively counter Cune: you can GK until it rests, than just phaze him out, making it harder to come back while sleeping without boosts. It also hits hard while being able to come back in several times thanks, again, to Regenerator. Btw, Regenerator is the main thing why Slowking (and other mons like Tangrowth) are so good right now. UU have a lack of physical defensive walls with reliable recovery and P2 (with Recover), Slowking and Tangrowth are coming off as great solutions to this, imo.
Speaking of CM Slowking views, because it's the King that i have most experience with, I'd say it can check, counters and/or setups on 2 of 3 S Rank mons, 7 of 9 A+, 6 of 16 A Rank (while 4 can't really switch in) and 9 of 13 A-, which is great.
It doesn't like opposing Electric, Grass or Dark types, and status, specially poison, so you might want to have some cleric support and partners to cover his weakness.
Here are some calcs that should help this nom:
Checking:
252+ Atk Mega Aerodactyl Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Slowking: 153-181 (38.9 - 46%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Sacred Fire vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Slowking: 102-121 (25.9 - 30.7%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Slowking: 137-162 (34.8 - 41.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Mienshao Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Slowking: 172-204 (43.7 - 51.9%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO and then it does max 35%
252 Atk Crobat Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Slowking: 127-151 (32.3 - 38.4%) -- 97.9% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
28 SpA Life Orb Infernape Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Slowking: 146-174 (37.1 - 44.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Cobalion Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Slowking: 141-167 (35.8 - 42.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
16 Atk Swampert Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Slowking: 99-117 (25.1 - 29.7%) -- 89.1% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
And some interesting calcs (some after a single CM boost):
252 SpA Alakazam Shadow Ball vs. +1 248 HP / 8 SpD Slowking: 112-132 (28.4 - 33.5%) -- 95.1% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. +1 248 HP / 8 SpD Slowking: 124-147 (31.5 - 37.4%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Heliolisk Thunderbolt vs. +1 248 HP / 8 SpD Slowking: 205-244 (52.1 - 62%) while +1 0 SpA Slowking Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Heliolisk: 216-255 (81.5 - 96.2%) killing Heliolisk after LO residual damage.
252 SpA Life Orb Roserade Giga Drain vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Slowking: 283-338 (72 - 86%) -- while 0 SpA Slowking Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Roserade: 242-288 (93.4 - 111.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Adaptability Mega Beedrill U-turn vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Slowking: 312-368 (79.3 - 93.6%) -- U-turn fails to OHKO, so you can Slack Off damage and get back to setup and sweep.
252+ Atk Mega Aerodactyl Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Slowking: 153-181 (38.9 - 46%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Sacred Fire vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Slowking: 102-121 (25.9 - 30.7%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Slowking: 137-162 (34.8 - 41.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Mienshao Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Slowking: 172-204 (43.7 - 51.9%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO and then it does max 35%
252 Atk Crobat Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Slowking: 127-151 (32.3 - 38.4%) -- 97.9% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
28 SpA Life Orb Infernape Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Slowking: 146-174 (37.1 - 44.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Cobalion Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Slowking: 141-167 (35.8 - 42.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
16 Atk Swampert Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Slowking: 99-117 (25.1 - 29.7%) -- 89.1% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
And some interesting calcs (some after a single CM boost):
252 SpA Alakazam Shadow Ball vs. +1 248 HP / 8 SpD Slowking: 112-132 (28.4 - 33.5%) -- 95.1% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. +1 248 HP / 8 SpD Slowking: 124-147 (31.5 - 37.4%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Heliolisk Thunderbolt vs. +1 248 HP / 8 SpD Slowking: 205-244 (52.1 - 62%) while +1 0 SpA Slowking Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Heliolisk: 216-255 (81.5 - 96.2%) killing Heliolisk after LO residual damage.
252 SpA Life Orb Roserade Giga Drain vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Slowking: 283-338 (72 - 86%) -- while 0 SpA Slowking Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Roserade: 242-288 (93.4 - 111.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Adaptability Mega Beedrill U-turn vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Slowking: 312-368 (79.3 - 93.6%) -- U-turn fails to OHKO, so you can Slack Off damage and get back to setup and sweep.
I can manage to take some replays, if necessary. Also, this is my first nom so pls tell me if I did something wrong.
i just wanna agree that slow king is a beast, idk if its my own team building, but i often have very little that can actually ohko a slow king with just one cm and have to resort to status + other to kill it/force it out. i guess like lo hydreigon is a pretty good counter/check but other than that i can't think of much at the moment.
i also wanna say that while a bit not standard and i guess "niche/obscure" poliwrath absolutely shits on gatr like 95% of the time. I've been using it as part of the uu like testing thing or whatever lol and I'm currently 26 on the ladder (grain of salt) with the alt u2u. sub toxic encore and circle throw is a decent set, and can stall out/annoy a lot of things (including being a soft cm slow king check with encore on the cm/scald upon switchin, emphasis on soft check tho lol). it can also switch in on darmanitan like once or twice, more with wish support. water absorb is pretty good in this current meta lol.
edit: also poll pretty much counters 99% of suicunes, unless they running like offensive cm hp grass/electric lol
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Moving
Porygon-2 B -> A- Best Salamence check while being able to spread status in the form of thunderwave and toxic while also having reliable recovery. Checks a lot of offensive threats such as Aero, Pidgeot, Alakazam, Nidoqueen etc. Its easy set up bait for bulky set up sweepers such as Cresseilia, Reuniclus, Suicune and Snorlax which is what's keeping it from A.
Porygon-2 B -> A- Best Salamence check while being able to spread status in the form of thunderwave and toxic while also having reliable recovery. Checks a lot of offensive threats such as Aero, Pidgeot, Alakazam, Nidoqueen etc. Its easy set up bait for bulky set up sweepers such as Cresseilia, Reuniclus, Suicune and Snorlax which is what's keeping it from A.
Could Quagsire rise due to Feraligatr?
252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Quagsire: 168-199 (42.6 - 50.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Quagsire: 112-133 (28.4 - 33.7%) -- 95.7% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Feraligatr Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Quagsire: 108-127 (27.4 - 32.2%) -- 65% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Quagsire: 105-125 (26.6 - 31.7%) -- 32.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Quagsire: 153-181 (38.8 - 45.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Quagsire: 103-121 (26.1 - 30.7%) -- 4.1% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Feraligatr Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Quagsire: 97-116 (24.6 - 29.4%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Quagsire: 96-114 (24.3 - 28.9%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 174-205 (46.5 - 54.8%) -- 62.1% chance to 2HKO
Maybe somewhere in B?
252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Quagsire: 168-199 (42.6 - 50.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Quagsire: 112-133 (28.4 - 33.7%) -- 95.7% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Feraligatr Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Quagsire: 108-127 (27.4 - 32.2%) -- 65% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Quagsire: 105-125 (26.6 - 31.7%) -- 32.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Quagsire: 153-181 (38.8 - 45.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Quagsire: 103-121 (26.1 - 30.7%) -- 4.1% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Feraligatr Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Quagsire: 97-116 (24.6 - 29.4%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Quagsire: 96-114 (24.3 - 28.9%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 174-205 (46.5 - 54.8%) -- 62.1% chance to 2HKO
Maybe somewhere in B?
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