CAP 20 CAP 20 - Part 4 - Primary Ability Discussion

[DetroitLolcat]

Welcome to CAP 20's Primary Ability Discussion! Here, we'll decide what our creation's first Ability will be. We just finished up our Threats Discussion, make sure to keep its conclusion in mind when arguing for or against certain Abilities. Our Abilities Leader is trc; he'll be kicking off this thread and leading the discussion. At the end, he'll decide on a slate of Abilities for everyone to vote on. Pay attention to him, since he's who you're trying to convince!

We recently updated our rules about abilities; you can read about them here. In summary:

• Custom abilities are banned
• There are ability banlists for the different stages of ability discussion
• Flavor abilities do not have any place in this thread. Do not bring up flavor reasoning.

The following abilities are banned from this discussion:

Air Lock
Bad Dreams
Color Change
Defeatist
Forecast
Illusion
Imposter
Moody
Multitype
Sand Veil
Shadow Tag
Slow Start
Snow Cloak
Teravolt
Truant
Turboblaze
Victory Star
Wonder Guard
Zen Mode

Big Pecks
Friend Guard
Healer
Honey Gather
Illuminate
Pickup
Run Away
Telepathy

Be careful not to discuss any of these abilities. If you want to learn why they're banned from discussion, you can check out the Policy Review thread that created this list.

------------------
CAP20 so far:

Typing: Water/Steel

Leadership Team:

nyttyn - Topic Leader
Ununhexium - Typing Leader
trc - Abilities Leader
HeaLnDeaL - Stats Leader
Snobalt - Movepool Leader

Concept:

Name: Use the Boost to Get Through!

General Description: A sweeper with several boosting options that result in completely different checks and counters. While each set should be viable in its own right, the unpredictability of this Pokemon should make it much better than any one set alone.

Justification: In the early days of Pokemon X and Y, we experienced the first Pokemon that could (viably) boost and sweep from either the physical or special side: Mega Lucario. While it was clear his unpredictability could have a devastating effect (having your Chansey eat a Close Combat, Will-O-Wisping on the Nasty Plot, etc.) the true extent to which this could make a Pokemon better was masked by the fact that Lucario's sets were both already amazing. The purpose of this concept would therefore be to explore the impact of unpredictability in sweepers by creating a Pokemon that can run several boosting sets, none of which are dominant in their own right, but that when combined can result in an extremely dangerous threat.

Questions To Be Answered:

• Is there a limit to how much unpredictability can make a Pokemon better? Can it make a decent Pokemon great? Or can it only make them usable?
• How does being unpredictable with boosting options compare to other forms of unpredictability (such as uncommon coverage moves or trying to speed creep certain threats)? Is unpredictability in sweepers inherently more dangerous because of how easily they can win a game?
• For a Pokemon that is already unpredictable, will we see the use of strange coverage moves (as many sweepers tend to run) or will it tend to stick to standard sets because it already has the element of surprise?
• Which boosting moves are distinct enough to completely change a Pokemon's checks/counters? Are Swords Dance, Nasty Plot, and Agility the only ones that can fit this concept? Or is there a way to incorporate moves such as Dragon Dance without giving the Pokemon "the best of both worlds".
• How effective will double boosting sets be on this Pokemon? Will the ability to "pick your counters" on a Pokemon already designed to bypass its counters be too good? Or can it be designed so that the loss of coverage will still leave it with several checks and counters on any set?
• To what extent will teams have to prepare for this Pokemon? Will they have to pack several checks/counters like for M-Lucario? Or will they be able to just use a standard team so long as they can identify the set early?

Take it away, trc!

 

[trc]

Hey guys. The Abilities stage is definitely one of the most important parts of the CAP project, as it can often be the turning point that defines a Pokemon's niche in the metagame. If we take a look at our threatlist:

Threats to both sets of CAP 20:

• Thundurus-I: It stops both sets from setting up by presumably OHKOing them and can priority Thunder Wave the DD set. The CM set could possibly take it on after a few boosts as other Pokemon like Suicune have been able to do, but it depends on the bulk of CAP 20 and the amount of boosts it has amassed.
• Raikou: The DD set should beat this.
• Magnezone (+ Magneton): Magnezone is slow and we should be able to outspeed it after a DD boost.
• Garchomp: Somewhat annoying considering it's very often bulky now and DD sets take a lot of damage to kill it while offensive variants should damage CM sets, it even has Dragon Tail on the bulky set which is problematic because assuming the CM set runs max/max+ PhD it might be able to handle defensive Garchomp's EQ.
• Hippowdon: psure this isn't really a threat but I guess we can't set up on it? i mean it's slow and um weak to water, considering it doesn't run Speed even min CM CAP 20 should outspeed it considering the Speed required for the DD set.
• Landorus-T: This CAP should definitely outspeed Scarf Landorus-T after 1 DD boost, as has been a goal mentioned various times.
• Excadrill: In sand this is definitely a Problem and not one I think we should aim to beat although Shuca doesn't sound like a bad idea for this CAP tbh
• Kyurem-B: DD KOes at +1 if it has a STAB Steel move, CM is annoyed more. I kind of feel like the Speed should be between 91 and 95 so that Scarf Kyurem-B can revenge but landog can't.
• Conkeldurr: Uncommon but threatening nevertheless
• Mega Metagross: this threatens everything
• Mega Gyarados: a massive problem if it has Taunt. We should definitely aim to have coverage that beats M-Gyara
• Mega Swampert: under rain yea
• Zapdos: Zapdos is easy to pressure so I think DD should be ok if it can be worn down, CM obviously can't setup on it but it can prolly beat it if it has setup a little already

Threats to the Calm Mind set of CAP 20:

• All of CAP20's universal threats
• Keldeo: honestly not much we can do about this
• Celebi: Perish Song is annoying but rare, NP Giga can outboost us and recover
• Breloom: not sure on the speed of CAP 20 yet but see: keldeo
• Serperior
• Magnezone: (if specs)
• TG Manaphy: needs eball since this pkmn probably has recovery but Manaphy can beat shakily, it isn't too solid
• Mega Gardevoir: only really if Taunt since CAP 20 can recover but flash cannon beats
• Unaware Clefable: the Big One. flash cannon isn't beating this if it's unaware cm. that being said, see: keldeo. it's embarassing losing to a clefable though to we could possibly address this in the moves stage :O

Threats to the Dragon Dance set of CAP20:

• All of CAP20's universal threats
• Gyarados
• Rotom-W: is physically bulky, resists our stab, almost impossible to cover with coverage, and volts us to death
• Choice Scarf Keldeo
• Faster offensive pokemon (things like Mega Lopunny (and Mega Manectric), which can outspeed before a +1 and either tear a huge chunk out of or outright KO CAP20. Almost all of them will lose at +1 though)
• Generic physical walls (such as Skarmory and Mandibuzz): and the rest T_T on the plus side they all lose to cm, as the phazers have to take a hit first

Threats Calm Mind CAP 20 should be able to set up on:

• Scald (and burns in general): see below
• Chansey
• Clefable
• Non-tbolt Latios
• Non-tbolt Latias (we can probably do this regardless of it having tbolt or not)
• Azumarill (that isn't CB locked into superpower)
• Scizor sans Superpower
• Jirachi
• Tentacruel (sans haze since we're immune to acid spray, we still rely on burning it to beat it but it should be achievable)
• CroCune and CM (Mega) Slowbro (CM only, DD can't break them in time)
• Talonflame (fast taunt is a issue) (but it isn't risking that unless in a pinch lol)
• Volcarona
• Sylveon
• Tyranitar (risky)
• Anything that cannot at least 2HKO CAP that also lacks a fast taunt.

i removed gothitelle, it's always trick

Threats Dragon Dance CAP 20 should be able to set up on:

• Scald (and burns in general)
• Chansey
• Clefable
• Non-tbolt Latios
• Non-tbolt Latias
• Azumarill not locked into CB superpower
• Scizor sans superpower
• Volcarona
• Sylveon
• Tyranitar (risky) (dd prolly isnt running physical bulk, i doubt we can setup on non-locked ttar if it has eq)
• Things we force out for a turn, this is p self-explanatory

Burns in general I would probably consider to be the biggest obstacle that we should try to avoid ability-wise, because a) CAP 20's typing of Water / Steel suggests that CAP 20 should theoretically be able to setup its boosts on Water-types of which are incredibly common in OU, Scald in general is a broken move which gives any bulky Water-type a 30% way out of being setup bait, b) both the CM set and the DD set are hindered by burns, the former being under more pressure while setting up making it far easier to break through on its physical side, and the latter obviously being a physically-inclined Pokemon, and c), it's kind of difficult to deal with outside of the Ability stage unless we use Refresh. Water Veil is brought up often on IRC and I do like it, much more than something like say, Magic Guard which I'm definitely not inclined to pick for a number of reasons.

That being said, there's plenty of room for other abilities to benefit us in some way, so get discussing

o and contact me on irc for any questions :D

 

[aim]

I definitely feel like CAP 20 SHOULD be able to set up on bulky waters due to its natural typing, as well as being able to stall break with the cm set (assuming CM Scald Flash Cannon Rest/Filler) and one of the only ways to do it is to give it Water Veil. Being able to switch into scalds from suicune and slowbro, as well as being able to take on Mega sableye due to 'wisp immunity is huge for CAP 20. A pokemon that not only has access to one of the most spam-able moves in the game, Scald, but also being a nice switch in to it is great in terms of putting offensive pressure. I mean offensive pressure in the sense that it forces switches as suicune and bro can't do anything and doesn't necessary have to set up but creates ideal situations for set up being easier. Scald is a no draw back move. CAP 20 can spam it whenever a you are forced into your counter and simply switch out after wearing down said counter with Scald burns or prior damage. This allows CAP 20 to come in later on and set up when checks/counters have been weakened or knock out. Hence why i believe water veil is the "perfect" ability for it as it allows ample opportunities, combined wit CAP 20's coverage, for CAP 20 to do what its gotta do (sweep/clean/open up for teammates).


edit: it has a 2x resist fren Integer Mova

 

[Mova]

Even though I have never witnessed the discussions on IRC, I would like to put my full support to Water Veil as well. I have a feeling that the CAP will be more physically-inclined, since Waterfall is an amazing STAB, and Scald would be a great threat to the CAP otherwise, even considering that this Pokemon has a (2x) resist to said move.

EDIT: Correcting a mistake.

aim I must've thought "Steel" or "Ice" moves, considering Steel by itself doesn't resist Water moves.

 

[Wayan Vistar]

May I suggest Flare Boost? If you are unaware, Flare Boost gives a Pokemon x1.5 SpA when burned. This way, burns criple the DD set, while actually helping the CM set. It fits the concept nicely in that sence IMO.

 

[Mowtom]

May I suggest Flare Boost? If you are unaware, Flare Boost gives a Pokemon x1.5 SpA when burned. This way, burns criple the DD set, while actually helping the CM set. It fits the concept nicely in that sence IMO.

Except we don't want burns to cripple the DD set. It should be able to switch into things that use Scald.

 

[The Avalanches]

Except we don't want burns to cripple the DD set. It should be able to switch into things that use Scald.

With that in mind, are Water Absorb / Storm Drain / Dry Skin viable options, or would it be kinda pushing the envelope? Do we want to avoid all burns or just Scald?

 

[Empress]

With that in mind, are Water Absorb / Storm Drain / Dry Skin viable options, or would it be kinda pushing the envelope? Do we want to avoid all burns or just Scald?

I believe we would rather avoid all burns than just Scald, as Water Veil allows us to avoid WoW from the likes of T-Flame, Sableye, and Rotom-W. Still, the water immunity abilities give us a way to directly punish users of Scald, so they seem like they could stay on the table.

 

[Elite Lord Sigma]

If we're only concerned with burns from Scald, other options include:

-Shield Dust. In addition to blocking Scald's burn effect, it can also allow CAP 20 opportunities to switch into other moves with added effects without needing to worry about being screwed over by an untimely freezing or paralysis. This has the added bonus of rendering the CAP immune to flinching, allowing it to challenge Fake Out as well as Jirachi's paraflinching sets.


If all burns are cause for concern, alternative options to Water Veil would be:

-Guts. In exchange for the prevention of residual damage that Water Veil would provide, Guts allows the CAP to ignore the attack penalty from burns. However, this ability favors the DD set over the CM set, which may cause problems in later stages of CAP 20's creation process.

-Hydration. While this option is probably not going to get far due to the necessity of rain support, it is still worth mentioning thanks to its ability to automatically heal the CAP of status at the end of every turn.

-Natural Cure. While this ability doesn't prevent status outright, it does allow the CAP to switch out so it can make a later attempt to set up instead of being crippled for the remainder of the match. It also has useful synergy with RestTalk Calm Mind sets. While I don't think the latter is cause for much concern, I'll leave it to everyone else to decide for themselves whether or not this is too much.

-Shed Skin. This ability trades reliable burn protection for the possibility to be healed of any crippling status 33% of the time. This could be useful against priority Thunder Wave users like Thundurus as well as Will-O-Wisp users like Mega Sableye and Talonflame

 

[nyttyn]

yeah water veil seems definitely like our best bet here. a bit simple and to the point, but, well, we want to set up on burns/scald and water veil is by far the best option for doing so, since it literally just flat out prevents burns. Magic Guard is undesirable because it doesn't actually prevent the atk drop, making it somewhat pointless for the physical set, Guts is undesirable because it doesn't really help the special set, and, well, we COULD do Shield Dust, but that leaves us open to Will-o-Wisp which im not super fond of plus only being able to set up on jirachi's body slam is super relevant. dislike the absorb abilities as we already resist water plus leaves us open to will-o-wisp.

Honestly, what we want is incredibly straightforward this time. Fuck Scald, up with Water Veil.

 

[Albacore]

Pretty much everything has been said already about how perfect Water Veil is for this CAP, so I'd like to comment on the other abilities suggested.

I don't think Guts is a good idea, simply because it doesn't actually prevent burn, which is waht we want most of all. The CM set is still getting worn down slowly over time. And while the DD set gains a lot of power, it gets worn down tremendously by Burn+LO damage every turn and will have a pretty hard time sweeping as a result, so it's not a great idea for it to be burnt either.

As for the other 3 abilities Elite Lord Sigma mentioned, they distinguish themselves by also being able to cure paralysis for the DD set. Unfotrunatly, they don't do this well enough to be good options imo.

Hydration only seems useful for the CM set since DD will almost certainly not be running Rain Dance, and CM doesn't really mind paralysis too much.

Natural Cure isn't too bad, but it's still stopping DD from sweeping by forcing it out, so when it comes to sweeping it doesn't help the CAP much other than just give it another chance. It's a nice way to stick it to Thundurus though, I'll give it that

Shed Skin looks okay but isn't reliable enough to really justify using. It also doesn't really help much against most common TWavers. Thundurus either gets KOed while it TWaves you and sends in a revenge killer or, if you get fully para'd, TBolts you next turn, so you need to hit the 33% chance to break out of paralysis on that turn for it to work. Slowbro can consistently switch into you and keep TWaving you until you finally stay paralyzed (and has no reason to switch out if DD doesn't run recovery). Ferrothorn probably beats you regardless. I guess it can help vs Klefki and Jirachi but it's still pretty unreliable, especially if DD has to run a pure offensive set with no recovery and LO over Leftovers as its item, which it likely will.

So yeah, Water Veil all the way imo.

 

[BigWigs]

I'd like to state that any ability that supports one set and not the other is not too good. It's just blatantly promoting one set over the other, which is exactly against the concept. What am I for then?

I'm currently supporting the Water Veil bandwagon, seeing how crucial it is for both DD not to get an attack drop AND CM not taking residual damage. To put it simply, the only ways to damage CAP20 now without actually attacking it are Leech Seed and....Hail. Not much else to say that hasn't been said, really.

 

[NumberCruncher]

I think our concerns about burns are a bit premature. Let's look at Mega-Gyarados for example. Mega-Gyarados is just as susceptible to burns, paralysis, and Taunt as our CAP is liable to be, if not more-so, but is still able to succeed. Substitute, for example, is a move that every Pokemon that can use a TM gets that Gyarados uses to great effect in blocking burns and Taunts. Thus if we account for substitutes, our biggest concerns are the Pokemon that can break a Substitute and get off another hit before we can kill them or else phase us out. The former can't really be addressed before we get to the movepool discussion (except Magnezone, but the Dragon Dance set can probably kill that with a sub up, so wasting an ability on Magnezone seems fruitless), but the latter actually can.

I'm going to propose Suction Cups as a primary ability. It's important that we don't get hard countered by phasing, and that requires good coverage against a pretty wide spectrum of Pokemon. Having Suction Cups not only reduces the movepool needs placed on CAP, but greatly increases the number of Pokemon we can set up on (one of the more notable ones being Skarmory, which would usually counter our DD set).

 

[Albacore]

The problem with Suction Cups is that phazing moves are really not common in OU anymore, and most of the Pokemon who do use them probably won't use them against our CAP. Heatran and Skarmory much prefer Taunt most of the time, Mandibuzz can just Foul Play us (and also prefers Taunt usually), Bulky Garchomp does use Dragon Tail but would rather just EQ us, same goes for Hippowdon and Roar (I guess we can run enough bulk to take EQs from it but DD is not doing that, also we should be able to beat it at +1 anyway). So really all you're beating with Suction Cups is SpD Roar Gyarados which I doubt is common enough to warrant an entire ability to be able to set up on.

 

[P3DS]

I'd be one of those guys putting water veil as a non primary ability. It doesn't feel like it would be great as a primary ability, more as a secondary ability. Also, I wouldn't be up for any ability blocking critical hits, as it need two fairy decent sets, and we know from mega slowbro that the crit blocking ability is a bit too good for bulky sets.

However, I am inclined more towards Elite Lord Sigma 's idea of Shield Dust. This is an interesting idea, as it does help against scalds and stuff like random chance secondary effects, like flinches and paralysis. Great for battling jirachi, scald burns and, most importantly, stat drops from moves like crunch and shadow ball. And the fact we never see a decent pokemon with this in OU. See below for more

I also am in favour of either Water Absorb or Dry Skin. It does aid in setting up vs scalds better, and also discourages the use of water type moves in general. It also lets CAP20 take on belly-jet azumarill better than before.

I'd also like to look into Liquid Ooze. It lets us stop pokemon with leeching moves, like leech seed and co, and would actually let us take out mega venusaur, and celebi.

And could I bring up Marvel Scale: This can be a very nasty surprise, and discourages the use of scald and other status. Burn still causes the drop, but we should have a form of recovery from the move pool of the CM side, and, with the physical bulk

Clear body is also and interesting one. Although it sounds OP on the bulky set/DD set, think again: Immunities to the random stat drops is bliss, so goodbye shadow ball drops, and also, immunity to intimidate, getting us to take down lando-t easier. (quick calc: +1 252 Atk Empoleon Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Landorus-T: 348-410 (109 - 128.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Assuming 100 base attack and 1 DD with clear body)). The main thing is that we need that DD to take on landorus-t. without it, we have out pokemon crippled.

Also, with people complaining about burns: How often are pokemon burned by a move other than scald? Rarely. WoW is really only seen on bulky Zards, rotoms, heatran, mew and sableye (I've not missed any out, have I?) Of the 5, Zard and heatran are taken care of by our water STABs, rotom walls us anyway, And then mew and sableye are basically anti stall tactics, which cripples our CAP (I think mew is a major threat to the CAP. Fast taunt and has WoW). If we have a dragon dance or 2, it should be easy to KO mew, and sableye is just there to annoy. So, if we have something that makes us immune to scald/use scald's burn to our advantage/is shield dust, will greatly pressure on opponents using scald, as it lacks its main niche in burning.

 

[QueenOfLuvdiscs]

I'm gonna support Water Veil as well as its primary ability. To have a burn immunity is amazing for both sets; Sableye can't Prankster 'Wisp the DD set, and Scald just becomes a weaker Surf when used against it, making the CM set really good as well. Being able to safely boost either stats without having to worry about residual damage (can't be toxiced due to Steel typing) is incredible for a set-up sweeper like this.

 

[Sabreholo]

I'd like to throw my support behind Water Veil for the reasons that other people have stated, however I'd like to bring up some other possible options. Filter can help both set set up against the pokemon on our list like scizor or azumarill that have the annotations of "as long as they don't have *enter super effective coverage here*". It helps us stabilize those set up fodder and a better chance to set up in general for both sets. In keeping with the theme of messing with resists, another option could be Tinted Lens which helps both sets break through stuff on their individual lists. For CM it has to rely less on scald burns for water types, and it has a better chance to break through grass types (celebi and breloom). DD benefits mostly from not being walled from hell and back by Rotom-W, but it also would give it more freedom with coverage or even more non-attacking options since it's STABs are only resisted by x4 resists (and immunities) .

 

[escarlata]

I think our concerns about burns are a bit premature. Let's look at Mega-Gyarados for example. Mega-Gyarados is just as susceptible to burns, paralysis, and Taunt as our CAP is liable to be, if not more-so, but is still able to succeed. Substitute, for example, is a move that every Pokemon that can use a TM gets that Gyarados uses to great effect in blocking burns and Taunts. Thus if we account for substitutes, our biggest concerns are the Pokemon that can break a Substitute and get off another hit before we can kill them or else phase us out. The former can't really be addressed before we get to the movepool discussion (except Magnezone, but the Dragon Dance set can probably kill that with a sub up, so wasting an ability on Magnezone seems fruitless), but the latter actually can.

^ This.
The direct problem I see with Water Veil is that it is too specific, and while it does help setting up against users of WoW like Talonflame, Sableye and Rotom-W, these mons generally either have other ways of possibly beating CAP 20 or would simply switch out should CAP 20 have Water Veil; Talonflame still can Taunt, Sableye could CM alonogside the CM variants of CAP 20, Rotom-W is still comfortable with just Volt Switching out.

Accounting in Substitute, I would prefer Storm Drain to be the primary ability.What Storm Drain provides, would be a huge window for CAP 20 to set up on, especially choiced ones like Keldeo, and can get a easy Substitute if needed. Aside from its benefits from helping set ups, DD variants can possibly go mixed to get past would-be checks with a +1 from Storm Drain, and CM sets really would appreciate the free +1.

Lightning Rod, in a similar vein, would provide similar benefits as Storm Drain, albeit in a different way, letting it set up on Electric types which usually rely on BoltBeam for coverage. This approach gives up immunity to Scald in order to gain a immunity to Thunder Wave, and also allows the CM set to have a easier time setting up by changing a weakness to an immunity.

Prankster, is yet another decent ability, since CAP 20's concept relies on boosting, Prankster would help a lot with a possibly priority Sub to block a TWave from Thundurus, or a WoW from Sableye. And obviously priority Calm Mind would make life easier against special attackers.

 

[Alfalfa]

Water Veil, Sap Sipper, and Pressure all would be abilities I recommend for this CAP.

Water Veil because being able to set up on Pokemon like Heatran and Mega Sableye would be very useful for the Dragon Dance set. Having your physical attack cut in half inhibits your chance of sweeping, so security against burn inducers, especially passive Scald users like Alomomola and Defensive Starmie, would be very handy.

Sap Sipper because this makes CAP 20 able to set up all over Ferrothorn lacking Thunder Wave, which Ferro generally does not carry. A big drawback to using Dragon Dance Mega Gyarados is its inability to get past Ferrothorn without several boosts or without Ferrothorn weakened, something CAP 20 would be able to boast with Sap Sipper. While the CAP cannot threaten Ferro without several boosts, Ferro being unable to anything to it but set up hazards and Thunder Wave (the latter of which it really does not want to carry) would discourage the use of it as a check.

Pressure because it allows CAP 20 to win Calm Mind wars, especially against Mega Slowbro, whose Calm Mind + RestTalk sets universally beat the Calm Mind set. Being able to stall out Chansey's Seismic Tosses (assuming this CAP has enough HP for 101 Substitutes) is also immensely handy, as the Calm Mind set is going to have issues breaking through it.

 

[Billy the Uncle]

I don't have much to say about Water Veil, it's the first ability that pops to mind and does what needs to be done without being overpowered in the slightest.

Personally I like Shield Dust as well, it's a nice ability which sees little use because all of its current users suck balls or have better abilities. Coupling it with Taunt and/or Substitute and/or a Lum Berry will give us an almost-burnproof CAP20. Tinted Lens on a Pokemon with STAB water moves sound a bit too good, since Water is a good attacking type and almost nothing 4x resists it (not counting abilities).

If we're going toward the Water immunity ability, I support Storm Drain as the +1 SpA is very nice to the CM set (though useless to DD) and I don't really feel like CAP20 should have too many ways to recover health.

 

[QueenOfLuvdiscs]

Accounting in Substitute, I would prefer Storm Drain to be the primary ability.What Storm Drain provides, would be a huge window for CAP 20 to set up on, especially choiced ones like Keldeo, and can get a easy Substitute if needed. Aside from its benefits from helping set ups, DD variants can possibly go mixed to get past would-be checks with a +1 from Storm Drain, and CM sets really would appreciate the free +1.

Lightning Rod, in a similar vein, would provide similar benefits as Storm Drain, albeit in a different way, letting it set up on Electric types which usually rely on BoltBeam for coverage. This approach gives up immunity to Scald in order to gain a immunity to Thunder Wave, and also allows the CM set to have a easier time setting up by changing a weakness to an immunity.

I feel like people are way too quick to give CAPmons type immune abilites, and with these really only benefit the CM set. It already has great resistances and I don't believe that giving it anymore is really needed. We don't need another Cawmodore being made

 

[Da Pizza Man]

I'm on the Water Veil hype train here, it just seems like the best ability to give it right now, the burn immunity really helps out both sets immensely (Especially the DD set), and it doesn't force us to resort to being immune to will o wisp burns but not scald burns and vise-versa.

One option I kinda want to bring up is Unaware. It's a pretty nice ability that pretty much guarantees that the Calm Mind set will be able to beat pretty much any poke other than Keldeo in a Calm Mind war. It doesn't help the Dragon Dance set out as much, but it still allows the Dragon Dance set to ignore boosts from DD Tyranitar, Swords Dance Scizor, and Volcarona, keeping them at a weak enough attacking power that we can hopefully set up on them with.

 

[Project_Mars]

Concerning blocking Burns: Sub would block WoW from some of the slower stuff (i.e not Talonflame, Sableye, and maybe Mew.) but seems like it would see more use on the CM set vs the DD set. If we do want to account for that, then Guts would be the best choice, since it would make burning the DD set a terrible idea. Otherwise Water Veil would be the way to go in order to negate burns. Besides that Oblivious, Mold Breaker, and Sheer Force would be amazing for CAP20. Oblivious would ensure we can DD/CM by blocking Taunts, Mold Breaker would let us ignore Unaware, and Sheer Force would give both sets more power, although the question of if losing something like a Scald burn for the extra oomph is there on that one.

 

[mphallor]

I'm throwing my support behind Unaware. Water Veil has a lot going for it, I'm not calling that into question. But people are acting like that gives us an auto-win against bulky waters and other Calm Minders. While being able to inflict Scald burns and not receive them would be beneficial, the Calm Mind war will still come down to who gets the first crit in all likelihood, not who gets the first burn. Unaware lets CM Cap beat all of the other notable Calm Minders 1v1, which is a goal I believe we are trying to achieve. Unaware admittedly doesn't do much for DD Cap, but Water Veil isn't doing much for CM either. Yes, avoiding 12.5% per turn is nice, but on a Pokemon that's going to be running a recovery move (possibly rest) and leftovers, burns aren't nearly as big of an issue as opposing Calm Minders. Personally, I feel like giving Cap both abilities would be the ideal, but for picking a primary ability, I'd say the most important thing is to support the Calm Mind set since DD already has barely any threats after it sets up.

The biggest issue with Unaware is of course that Cap might opt to run a bulky spread and serve as an emergency defensive check to boosters instead of a boosting sweeper itself. This can most likely be mitigated in the movepool stage though, where if CAP doesn't have any good status moves then it will probably be outclassed by Clefable.

 

[Albacore]

I actually really like the idea of Sheer Force on this CAP. Waterfall and Iron Head are very easy to abuse with Sheer Force, and not only does it enable our CAP to act as a good sweeper without going overboard in the stats department, but it also negates LO damage. This is pretty major since the DD set will have to rely on LO boost to sweep, otherwise it just won't be powerful enough. And if LO gives it recoil every turn, it may have problems sweeping, especially given the damage it needs to take to set up. Only problem is that it doesn't fit the CM set (lol sheer force scald), so we need to make sure to give it a secondary ability tailored for CM. There's also the risk of DD overshadowing CM but if we don't give it too much physical attack we can definitely justify Sheer Force.

On the contrary, Oblivious looks good for the CM set as long as we give something for DD to abuse. Prevents us from getting stopped by faster Taunters like Azelf, Mew, Gengar, and helps vs Mandibuzz without needing Taunt ourselves as well. It strikes me a bit more as a secondary ability as opposed to a primary one, though.

Unaware is the only real way the CAP can handle CM MSlowbro+Suicune without resorting to Taunt which is very nice. Unaware easily be seen as too powerful for this CAP though. Pressure looks like a non-potentially broken variant of Unaware, but I'm not sure if it can actually beat CM MSlowbro (due to Psyshock doing way more damage than Scald with both members at +6, but Slowbro will be burnt by then, but so will we, but we'll have Leftovers and it won't, but we can get critted and it can't, so it's a tough call) and we probably lose to Suicune regardless (it can easily just Rest and refuse to attack us). I guess it handles Unaware Clefable, but we can probably PP stall it out of recovery before it stalls us even without Pressure (Moonblast does way less than Scald). I guess we'll have to play out these scenarios in practice and see what happens. Mold Breaker lets us break past Water Absorbers as well as beating Unaware Clef too which I guess is nice, but as I said, we shouldn't worry about that Pokemon too much, and it does nothing to help us vs bro and cune. All 3 of these abilities are pretty much moot if we give our CAP Taunt, so they are very movepool-dependant.

I'd definitely consider Sheer Force, Oblivious, and Unaware as possible abilities on this CAP. Undecided on the other two, I'll probably run some CM wars on the field and draw conclusions from there.