np: UU Stage 2.1 - You Are Invited

[Metalhand]

Personally if anything gonna get suspected I would like it to be staraptor. Sure, the pokemon is a fearsome wallbreaker, but it always have some issues dragging him down. First of all-it always kill it self in the process, with spaming moves like brave bird, close combat and double edge-thats in addition to a 25% he is taking when switching when rocks are on the field. His to main sets-choice band and choice scarf, always lacking important staff. The choice band set while hitting amazingly hard, is easily revenged killed and outsped in this choice scarfed meta. And the choice scarf while giving it amazing speed for a wall breaker, never hitting as strong as you except from it.
So I believe this thing can find its place in the meta without being broken.

 

[Sleepless]

Well, by march stats the probable drops are Mamoswine, Mandibuzz and Gallade. The former two seems interesting choices but the later will plummet to RU in case it will drop since Galladite will be quick banned. The probable rises are Tornadus-T and Serperior(which already quick rised from BL), and Hippowdon, which will end all Stoutland's viability. :<

 

[r0ady]

I like the idea of non mega ballade dropping tbh, I never got a chance to use its spdef bulk up set

 

[Pinkin Lark]

I like the idea of non mega ballade dropping tbh, I never got a chance to use its spdef bulk up set

Except I'm pretty sure we BL'd M-Gallade before it rose..

Also, the dream is 2/3rds real, as Scrafty and Flygon are looking to drop come May, alongside Kingdra and Noivern. And we will be stealing Cress/Doublade/Helio away from them in return. Now we just need to get rid of Trev...

 

[Cactrune]

I agree that we probably shouldn't suspect anything for a while. The meta is stable enough that I don't think anything is too broken. On the other hand, if Mamoswine, Mandibuzz, and Gallade (as Sleepless said right above me) drop to UU, we will probably see significant changes in the meta, most obviously the quickbanning of Galladite. On the other hand, Mamoswine is also bound to be pretty controversial in this tier, though I doubt it's going to be that broken with the meta in its current state.

I also agree that non-mega Gallade sounds pretty interesting, if a bit underwhelming in UU compared to other threats.

 

[Swagodile]

Yeah, Galladite was already banned.

 

[LeoLancaster]

Mamoswine is an interesting case imo. Suicune, Cress, and Bronzong are all totally viable hard counters, with P2 coming up as the next best check (Superpower has a high chance to 2HKO after rocks even factoring in the stat drops). But beyond that, there really isn't anything which can switch in reliably (even if not running Freeze-dry Swampert has a chance an about 1/3 chance to be killed after rocks by EQ, for example) and offense won't like dealing with it due to Ice Shard. It'll be interesting to see how it performs in the tier.

Edit: nvm I didn't know it got Knock Off, Cress and Bronzong aren't counters.

 

[brokenwings]

If anything should be suspected, it should be Pidgeot in my opinion. Flying/Fire coverage is amazing offensively in this tier, and if you aren't running specific things like Aerodactyl, SDef Empoleon, Rhyperior, Rest Mega Ampharos (otherwise it's worn down far too easily), or Rotom-Heat you can basically consider yourself Pidgeot weak. Of course Aerodactyl is already an amazing Pokemon in this tier, but do I really need to run it on almost all of my teams to not get destroyed by Pidgeot? The thing that really sets it over the edge for me is the 30% confuse rate from Hurricane, letting it cheese a lot of its would-be checks and making switching into it a complete coin-flip the likes of which make Scald seem like a balanced move.. I can't tell you how many times I've seen a Pidgeot win 1v1 against a would-be check like Empoleon just off of the confusion chance.

I wouldn't be at all opposed to a Feraligatr or Mence suspect either, but besides for the things I mentioned, I think this tier is in a very balanced and enjoyable state overall right now.

 

[Geopolitics]

Honestly Mamo is looking like a giant threat if it does drop, it can easily be slapped onto offense to soft check Mega Aero + Mega Pidgeot, while denting switch-ins with EQ. Additionally, it can run Knock Off to weaken P2 for the rest of the match, as well as pull off a lure set with Freeze Dry to weaken Suicune and Pert (allowing Mega Aero to have a field day :])

 

[Roseguardin]

If anything should be suspected, it should be Pidgeot in my opinion. Flying/Fire coverage is amazing offensively in this tier, and if you aren't running specific things like Aerodactyl, SDef Empoleon, Rhyperior, Rest Mega Ampharos (otherwise it's worn down far too easily), or Rotom-Heat you can basically consider yourself Pidgeot weak. Of course Aerodactyl is already an amazing Pokemon in this tier, but do I really need to run it on almost all of my teams to not get destroyed by Pidgeot? The thing that really sets it over the edge for me is the 30% confuse rate from Hurricane, letting it cheese a lot of its would-be checks and making switching into it a complete coin-flip the likes of which make Scald seem like a balanced move.. I can't tell you how many times I've seen a Pidgeot win 1v1 against a would-be check like Empoleon just off of the confusion chance.

I wouldn't be at all opposed to a Feraligatr or Mence suspect either, but besides for the things I mentioned, I think this tier is in a very balanced and enjoyable state overall right now.

Did someone say cheesing counters?
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/uu-222712409 (DaSpoofy vs senegal)

 

[Godsend]

Did someone say cheesing counters?
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/uu-222712409 (DaSpoofy vs senegal)

How is Maggron a counter?

 

[Roseguardin]

How is Maggron a counter?

You're right, my bad, but it should have easily been able to take one Hurricane+Heat Wave and retaliate. I guess the proper definition would be a check, but didn't consider that when posting

 

[Darvin]

Did someone say cheesing counters?
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/uu-222712409 (DaSpoofy vs senegal)

The odds of confusing and getting the opponent to immediately hurt themselves with confusion are 15%. The odds of doing that twice in a row are 2.25%. This is literally less likely than a critical hit.

 

[Sam]

To address some posts about suspects:

As of right now, we have no plans to suspect anything that is currently UU. The meta is filled with a lot of good mons (Pidgeot, Aero, Feraligtr), but none of them are really broken or overly constricting to teambuilding. We're definitely still going to be open to suspecting them down the line if need be, but it's not on the agenda right now.

There's one mon that the council has been having discussion about, and that's Smeargle. For those who weren't around when Smeargle was originally banned in September for its stat-passing sets (Geomancy, Quiver Dance, etc.). It also has completely different roles which were definitely not broken (hazard leads, mostly). We will likely be suspecting Smeargle next, though how we approach it is still up for debate (restrictions on BP, etc).

 

[Hogg]

I... huh.

So, I might be cynical, but I find it hard to imagine any way that Smeargle + BP will be anything but terrible. Ban Geomancy, ban Quiver Dance, ban Shift Gear, Smeargle + BP will still find a way to make the tier shitty and match-up based. Someone will come up with a paint by numbers BP team that takes little to no intelligence to use that will shit on any team lacking a specific counter.

If the combination of Smeargle and BP was banned, though, I'd be fine with it. Custap Forry means that it might be outclassed as an HO hazards lead for the average team, but access to Spore/Dark Void and I guess Sticky Webs or Nuzzle or whatever can give it a niche.

That said, if we were talking about doing complex bans like that, I'd love to see Scolipede get another shot in the tier. Scolipede's BP set was almost as terrible as Smeargle, but I thought its hazard and SD sets alone might not have made it banworthy, and would have liked to see it hang out in the tier a bit longer. I feel like Scolipede without BP would actually have a measurable impact on UU, while Smeargle without BP would appear now and then on some niche teams but overall wouldn't be a big deal. I don't know if that impact would be positive or negative, but I would be curious to find out.

 

[Malin]

I second Hogg. The only way I can see Smeargle returning for UU is under a complex ban of Smeargle + BP.
But I support Smogon's policy about trying to avoid complex bans, as it opens to situations as Scolipede + BP being possible scenarios, as well other mons could be. I don't know what you guys think about complex ban, but I'd rather keep Smeargle banned if so.

 

[yamb]

As little as this pertains to tiering, I normally dislike seeing mons that are banned from lower tiers while having next to no viability in higher tiers. Smeargle is the exception. It's cancer and I love that it's in usage purgatory since it's the bringer of gimmicks and imbalance in the form of geopass. As for a Cancer Beagle suspect without geopass, is it even worth doing? It seems like a lot of rule bending just to get a worthless suicide lead.

 

[Sam]

I... huh.

So, I might be cynical, but I find it hard to imagine any way that Smeargle + BP will be anything but terrible. Ban Geomancy, ban Quiver Dance, ban Shift Gear, Smeargle + BP will still find a way to make the tier shitty and match-up based. Someone will come up with a paint by numbers BP team that takes little to no intelligence to use that will shit on any team lacking a specific counter.

If the combination of Smeargle and BP was banned, though, I'd be fine with it. Custap Forry means that it might be outclassed as an HO hazards lead for the average team, but access to Spore/Dark Void and I guess Sticky Webs or Nuzzle or whatever can give it a niche.

That said, if we were talking about doing complex bans like that, I'd love to see Scolipede get another shot in the tier. Scolipede's BP set was almost as terrible as Smeargle, but I thought its hazard and SD sets alone might not have made it banworthy, and would have liked to see it hang out in the tier a bit longer. I feel like Scolipede without BP would actually have a measurable impact on UU, while Smeargle without BP would appear now and then on some niche teams but overall wouldn't be a big deal. I don't know if that impact would be positive or negative, but I would be curious to find out.

Scolipede is something that we wouldn't really consider doing a complex ban for. The only reason its even being considered with Smeargle is that there is such a clear dichotomy between the sets purely for BP that are broken and the hazards sets that are fine. I don't really think it's comparable to Scolipede where BP was only part of the problem and there isn't really a clear distinction like there is with Smeargle. We are considering doing a complex ban for what should be an obvious case, but that doesn't mean we have to go running with it.

 

[GULLY]

I dont even think that scoli with out bp would be healthy for the tier. It has way too much movepool wise and would be extremely hard to stop late game if roled as a sweeper or get up hazards and cripple mons with easy as a lead. It just isn't something that is good for the tier imo.

 

[xMarth]

So since I forgot to post my thoughts on the No Scald thread before that closed, I'll put them here so that the Scald topic won't be forgotten anytime soon.

After reaching the top of the No Scald ladder I realized a couple things about the No Scald meta. Most important was that it was the healthiest meta I've played since ORAS came out. Every time a water type came on the field there were so many more options to choose from to handle the mon when there isn't the threat of the burn. Having more options means there is more diversity in the plays you can make, which in turn makes the tier more diverse.

Now to address a few common counter arguments:

1. Scald has counters

Usually teams really only have one perfect Scald switch-in at the most. This makes prediction for the Scald user very easy, allowing them to switch directly into a counter or choose the correct coverage move to handle the incoming Scald switch-in. And honestly the only truly great scald counter is Water-immune Pokemon. Having mons with Natural Cure or Heal Bell is helpful in mitigating its effects but the residual damage of the Burn can still prevent them from doing their jobs. For instance switching in LO Shaymin against defensive Swampert and getting Burned means you will not be able to wall break nearly as effectively because that residual damage will add up too fast. While clerics like Florges would need to give up a free turn in order to heal the Burn. Also many of the Scald users have great durability and will often last until late game when the counters are out of they way.

2. Water types will not be as viable

Scald does not make Water types as viable as they are. The defensive typing is whats valuable and every team will still need one because the typing is just that useful. The Water types themselves weren't any less effective at doing their jobs without Scald.

3. Physical Attackers will run rampant/Stall will not be as viable

Scald is only an answer to physical attackers 30% of the time. That 30% chance of bullshit should not be your answer to physical attackers. Well built teams will not need the cushion that a Scald burn gives them.

4. If Scald gets suspected why not suspect all moves that have secondary effects/can miss

This comes down to a combination of its typing, distribution, and secondary effect. The only type that is immune to Burn is Fire and Water is super effective against Fire(reminder just in case you lost your brain). Now this move wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't distributed to almost every single relevant Water type in the tier(rip Cloyster). Almost every team has a bulky Water and they will almost always be carrying Scald.


In my mind there is no question that Scald is a broken move. What it comes down to is if Scald is healthy for the tier or not. The result of a Scald suspect test is the only thing that can ultimately determine if UU is better off without Scald. BanScald.

 

[Skankovich]

The scolipede test was like the worst meta ever, and not just due to BP since its swords dance set was a ridiculous cleaner alone. Definitely don't want to see it tested again.

 

[Patrick1088]

When I think back to the Smeargle GeoPass Era with deniss team, I honestly cringed a little. It was one of the worst times ive seen the tier (#1 was early XY when drizzle and ss were everywhere).

But Hogg said it perfectly. Any form of Smeargle + BP is unhealthy. The main difference between Smeargle and Scoli is that Dark Void/Spore and Magic Coat lets it bypass any normal checks that could taunt or incapacitate it. So, id be in favor of a compex ban especially in Smeargles case. No other BP user has access to such a support pool. In the case of Scoli, it can just tear through teams like tissue paper with just SD Megahorn, Earthquake and Rock Slide. Although personally, i still enjoyed Scoli as a hazard setter in BW, even before Speed Boost was released. But, i think that would be too complex of a ban. So, Scoli is kind of an all or nothing mon when it comes to banning, while smeargle should have a complex ban.

 

[Nightingales]

I wasn't here when Smeargle was a problem, but I've used stuff like it even into ubers, and honestly the thing is just damn unpredictable at best. You can see one with spore, switch out, and get burned or paralyzed the next on a good predict or set up on. And that's just the support. It has access to literally every move possible, far as I know. Mix that with a decent speed, and prominence on BP teams, and even I can agree with getting the thing some sort of complex ban just to balance it.

I once also used Scolipede, and I can't say I enjoy using I but it's effectve. It either is weak as hell offensively or defensively, I can't remember which, but it makes up for it with a bat-shit insanity in speed boost and stuff like swords dance which bring it up a bit in terms of usefness.

Personally, if anything gets done, I can't see Scolipede losing anything. That's just me, though.

 

[Talpr0ne]

I don't see what non-BP Smeargle would accomplish for the tier. It's a very bad lead, yeah it has Spore but Azelf and Custap Forretress(or even shuckle if you want sticky) are miles more reliable. Keep it banned imo, it doesn't do unnecessary rule bending and saves effort that could be put into looking to potentially broken mons.

 

[Thisbemyalt]

Smeargle was actually a very good good lead tbh it has a lot of versatility with the roll and frankly I would love to see it in the tier under a complex ban