Cyclohm

HeaLnDeaL

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Your OO is in dire need of attention. Each option should have a brief explanation on why it is OO (and saying SDef is extremely vague). Also, off of the top of my head, you probably should add Ice Beam and Charge Beam. Substitute and Torment are also candidates, but they could be debated.
 
I'm not too familiar with analysises but here is my 2 cents:
"- Thunderbolt is an alternative if a teammate has Toxic." - It's not that you can't/shouldn't run Discharge if you have a Toxic user, so IMO this should be replaced with some comment about clashing status or something like 'if paralysis doesn't matter to you' etc.
"- 248 HP EVs give an odd number to switch into hazards more times." - I think this would sound better / less confusing if it was something like take less damage from entry hazard
"- Leftovers for HP regain." - idk sounds weird to me, maybe 'for passive recovery' or 'to regain health' instead of 'for HP regain'
"- Standard EV spread to hit hard and fast" - maybe explained in more detailed, like something like 'The EV Spread maximises Speed and Special Attack' and then go on to explain the effect of this and why it has these EVs. Also, I think some mention of a Bulky Choice Specs set would be nice, maybe in Set Details as an alternative to the fast Specs set. Also, shouldn't Thunderbolt be the first slash on a Specs or Scarf set, since they both have max speed? Not sure about that tho.

Generally, there seems to be an awful lot of examples, but I suppose that's a good thing. There was quite a bit of repetition in the 2 Team Options, so maybe try to change the wording so it doesn't look like you've just copied it across. Also, no mention of Pokemon to deal with Fairy- and Ground-type moves that Cyclohm struggles with. Lastly, maybe a bit more explanation of the Specially Defensive set (e.g. item is AV, what does it do, how does it play etc.).

Good work so far :D
 
Good Work :D
However, I'd still like to see variation in wording between the 2 Team Option sections for each set, as well as more explanation of the AV in Other Options, especially considering how highly vry rated it, and I think it was a set once, so it deserves pretty detailed few sentences, explanation of AV / not AV etc. etc.

In regards to the Defensive set, after talking to ppl on PS about it, we think it should be changed to:

move 1: Slack Off
move 2: Discharge / Thunderbolt
move 3: Fire Blast / Flamethrower
move 4: Whirlwind / Heal Bell / Toxic

Dragon Pulse should not be slashed in, but should be put as an inferior alternative in the Moves section, along with Surf and Hydro Pump. You need to explain that Surf is better because it is reliable and doesn't miss any KOs, but Hydro Pump is useful for more damage etc. etc.
 

jas61292

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Quick note for the defensive set, 248 HP may make the HP stat odd, but it doesn't actually reduce SR damage, since 420 (the stat with 252 investment) is not divisible by 8. Due to that stat, unless you are taking a fraction of your health of 1/6 or 1/4 (aka 2 or 3 layers of spikes) you are not actually reducing any passive damage. Personally, I would just run 252 HP on Cyclohm, but if any of the other QC people think reducing multi-layer spikes damage by 1 is important enough, then you should at least make note of that in the text, since simply being odd is not reducing the most common passive damage, as the current text implies.
 
Not sure if AV deserves to be placed in OO, seeing as how Cyclohm forgoes Slack Off and seems to be inferior to the Leftovers + Slack Off + Light Screen set as a way for Cyclohm to tank special hits.

QC opinions on this?
 
Added a couple of teammates to Team Options, and unless anyone objects I'll be splitting the Choice set into two seperate sets (Scarf and Specs)
 

HeaLnDeaL

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Spark and I were talking about this the other day, and essentially Clohm's choice sets are both obscure enough that would be a waste of a set slot to have two separate choice sets. Furthermore, both are drastically heightened by the rain. Discharge itself is also a bit odd for a choice set, where the power is preferred.

Personally as a result, I think the Choice Set should have usage tips and team options that directly relate to the rain. Not all choice sets must be used in the rain, but it's clear that the rain does offer some pretty clear advantages. Sadly, rain isn't the most fearsome force in CAP, but it isn't unheard of at least. As a result, I would suggest changing the moves to the following:

move 1: Thunderbolt / Thunder
move 2: Draco Meteor / Dragon Pulse
move 3: Hydro Pump
move 4: Fire Blast / Ice Beam
 

Empress

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Personally I do not like having Specs and Scarf listed on the same set; they cause Cyclohm to function very differently. One is a wallbreaker, one is a revenge killer, so they shouldn't be merged for the sake of it. Offensive Clohm is definitely worthy of a set, but one of the Choice items should move to OO. I say it's Scarf b/c offensive Clohm is meant to be a bulky wallbreaker, not a revenge killer. As such, the offensive spread should be 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA. Clohm isn't so frail that it needs Speed to outpace and break other bulky offensive mons.

What are some Pokemon that beat offensive threats to Cyclohm? For example, name Steel-types that can take on Fairies, or Water-types that can take on Grounds.

For the offensive set, state when in the game Clohm should be used, in this case as an early- to mid-game wallbreaker.
 
Considering on the above changes of moving scarf to oo and making the bulky spread the main spread unless QC opposes this change.

Would like QC input before implementing these changes.
 

cbrevan

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I'd suggest the Choice set being divided into two sets, the first an offensive set w/ Choice Specs/Life Orb, and the other a Choice Scarf set that functions as a revenge killer. That way you can actually describe both in better detail. Also, to those thinking any of those two sets should be OO, I will say that scarf is an excellent lure for mons such as Landorus, Mega Diance, and Stratagem, all of which have a good chance to be OHKO'd after Stealth Rock, and Offensive Cyclohm sets can but much more pressure on the opponent. They still retain their ability to check Flying Spam and Cawmodore too, especially the Scarf set. Also, an offensive set would absolutely want to run speed investment, as 80 speed w/ investment allows it to hit stuff like Tomohawk, Bulky Landorus-T, no speed Kyurem-B, and AV Colossoil first, which is great, and its main purpose isn't really to wallbreak (it can't really break through special walls Chansey or Sylveon), but lure in and get surprise KO's on stuff.
 

QueenOfLuvdiscs

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OK, so we've [QC team] discussed the Choiced set and we all agreed that it should be one set, as the coverage does not change as well as it's checks; you're only changing an item. Mention that the scarf set can revenge kill Lando-i as well as a weakened Scarf Mollux and the specs set is used to punch holes in teams to allow other team members to clean up late game.
 
Hey MQJinx, I have a couple things

Moves (Physically Defensive)
- Mention that Discharge and Toxic have awkward synergy with each other, and this is why you'd pick Thunderbolt (the difference in damage output rarely matters with an uninvested set such as this)
- Explain why you'd use Fire Blast over Flamethrower besides it being more powerful; it's not too obvious considering this is a defensive set. Jas explains it well here.

Set Details (Physically Defensive)
- Generally, you don't need to explain the last 4 EVs unless they actually do something significant. Just say that HP and Defense are maximized.
- I like the alternate EV spread, elaborate and say that Cyclohm is never 2HKOed by those moves, letting it easily Slack Off the damage and wall these foes.

Usage Tips (Physically Defensive)
- "Switch Cyclohm in on Pokemon it can wall" Such as..? List some physical attackers here, emphasis on Flying-types such as Talonflame/Cawmodore in particular (might seem repetitive, but it's what Cyclohm does best)
- "Click the appropriate coverage move to hit the opponent hard." This is filler, remove

Moves (Special Attacker)
- Remove Thunder from the slashes as it requires rather specific support; you can keep it mentioned in move details with the same description.
- This doesn't need to be slashed, but add Slack Off in Move Details. Slack Off is a viable choice with Life Orb, as this lets Cyclohm heal off Life Orb recoil and extend its longevity.

Set Details (Special Attacker)

- Any reason Shield Dust is the only ability on this set? I don't have a problem with it, but both abilities seem equally useful here (situational), so I'd slash both abilities + add a description here (unless there's something I'm missing here)

Usage Tips (Special Attacker)
- "Switch Cyclohm in on Pokemon it can take a hit from, if possible." a few examples would be good here
- "Click the appropriate coverage move to hit the opponent hard." Again, this is kinda filler, but perhaps elaborate on this by talking about predicting switch-ins, since this is what differentiates Offensive Cyclohm from Defensive Cyclohm. It can demolish Ground-type switch-ins with Hydro Pump or Ice Beam, it can hit opposing Dragon-types quite hard with a fully-invested Draco Meteor since Defensive Cyclohm typically doesn't run Dragon-type coverage, etc.

Other Options
- The specially defensive spread is already mentioned as an alternate spread above, so it doesn't need to be here. Keep the Light Screen mention though.
- Add Thunder Wave I suppose, helps for crippling more frail, offensive threats as opposed to the bulky walls that Toxic is for. Cyclohm doesn't really have many other options lol

Checks & Counters
- Remove the Blissey mention since it's not all that relevant
- Under Ground-types, mention that Colossoil is particularly effective since it can even come in on Toxic and either bounce it back with Rebound or benefit from it with Guts.


Looks really good, and you put a ton of work in here, about time this got a stamp. QC 1/3
 

HeaLnDeaL

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Alright, basically the main problem right now that I see is that your OO is excessively light. Next to light screen, you should make reference to sp def EVs as well, as light screen is more of part of a different set altogether and not just a standalone move.

Rain Dance should be added to OO, since Clohm is a kinda bulky rain setter. Power Gem should be added to OO, and mention it should only be used on offensive sets to hit Mollux or Pyroak. Lastly, Substitute deserves a mention since it has more PP than Heal Bell and provides extra defensive insurance at the cost of being selfish.

If you add this (more eloquently than I'm saying it here), then consider this QC 2/3
 

HeaLnDeaL

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Try to provide some reasoning why Scarf was lumped with Life Orb and Specs on the Special set, as your current wording makes it seem like they play completely differently. All three items fail to OHKO Colossoil, whereas Colo can retaliate with 84-99% damage from an earthquake (this means that Life Orb Clohm won't KO with Hydro Pump and might KO itself after recoil, and that all three sets are in extreme danger of being KOed by eq if taking SR damage). Naive Diancie still will survive a Hydro Pump from Scarf Cyclohm if it chooses not to mega evolve right away and has an 81% chance to KO with Moonblast in non-mega. Meanwhile, if the scarf is a surprise and Mega Diancie has already Mega Evolved, then Timid Choice Scarf Cyclohm has only has a 50% chance to KO Mega Diancie post mega evolution, and this number is taken further down once we account for Hydro Pump's accuracy (Modest Clohm would KO tho). Syclant commonly runs Sash and thus can KO even Scarf Cyclohm as well. Timid Choice Scarf Cylchlom only has a 44% chance to OHKO naive Landorus with Hydro Pump, not counting accuracy (ice beam of course will always KO), whereas if he survives Landorus will KO back. We can up Cyclohm to Modest, but we can also up Landrus from Naive to Timid and we end up with Cyclohm's Hydro Pump having only a 38% of OHKOing Landorus. The point of all these calcs and why QC decided on merging Scarf and Life Orb/Choice Specs into a single set is that many of the threats are lot more similar than one would initially think, and the surprise factor of offensive clohm in general is what allows it to be useful. It was very tough to decide to have these items lumped into one set, but many of us felt it wasn't worth the space to split them apart. We might regret this decision later if the threats list later becomes less mutual...

Beyond that, unless another QCer objects, then I also think Modest could be slashed onto the Special Attacking set, as it's extra power can be valuable without making Cyclohm lose a ton of ground with speed tiers.

Also, you can remove the IVs mention, since 0 IVing isn't relegated to Cyclohm specifically but to special attackers in general.
 

HeaLnDeaL

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Currently, it still sounds like it has some contradictory information, as you added a line but didn't remove anything.

Both Choice Specs and Life Orb increase Cyclohm’s power, with Choice Specs offering no recoil and more power and Life Orb enabling Cyclohm to switch moves. A Choice Scarf gives a different role to this set, enabling Cyclohm to lure in a few faster threats like Stratagem, Landorus, Mega Diancie, and weakened Choice Scarf Mollux, and also serve as an effective a decent revenge killer. An alternate spread of 212 HP / 252 SpA / 44 Spe with a Modest nature can be used on sets with Choice Specs or Life Orb for more bulk while still outspeeding uninvested Tomohawk. Note that no matter what item Cyclohm is holding, it will fail to OHKO Colossoil, and prior damage is needed for sets with Choice Scarf to guarantee an OHKO on Mega Diancie and Landorus if running a Timid nature, however the The shared quality between all three items is the extra power of this set is handy to surprise an unsuspecting opponent.
Should look something like the above, where you aren't first sating that Cyclohm is good at taking out Landorus and Maga Diancie and then recanting later.
 

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